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View Full Version : A Murmansk map would be great!



XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 12:56 PM
Airplanes like ju88 and bf110 are coming soon. These airplanes were very active in the north of Norway. Especailly over Murmansk and they have flown many mission against konvoi ships over the barents sea and against the murmansktrainline trains /trainstations. This Map would not just be interesting for germans also for russians and finish pilots.


If I remember right, there was also many well hidden airfield to hardly find in the midst of of enormous forests. Also an interesting aspect.

A Norway map is not only interesting because the activity of each side. Also because the nature, moutains, fiorde, sea, tundra, forests.......
http://www.fvalk.com/images/Earth_hrpt/Summer/Northcape-Kona.jpg

A map from banak till murmansk would be great, but probably to big for online flying....

Just found this pic of an old ww2 planes simulation. Here you can good see the three frontlines.
http://members.tripod.com/murmansk1/mapa1.jpg


what are russians and finish pilots thinking about this?

anyway im happy about each new map! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
I look already forward to the Normadie and Ardennen map!



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Message Edited on 09/21/0301:06PM by JG53-Falkster

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 12:56 PM
Airplanes like ju88 and bf110 are coming soon. These airplanes were very active in the north of Norway. Especailly over Murmansk and they have flown many mission against konvoi ships over the barents sea and against the murmansktrainline trains /trainstations. This Map would not just be interesting for germans also for russians and finish pilots.


If I remember right, there was also many well hidden airfield to hardly find in the midst of of enormous forests. Also an interesting aspect.

A Norway map is not only interesting because the activity of each side. Also because the nature, moutains, fiorde, sea, tundra, forests.......
http://www.fvalk.com/images/Earth_hrpt/Summer/Northcape-Kona.jpg

A map from banak till murmansk would be great, but probably to big for online flying....

Just found this pic of an old ww2 planes simulation. Here you can good see the three frontlines.
http://members.tripod.com/murmansk1/mapa1.jpg


what are russians and finish pilots thinking about this?

anyway im happy about each new map! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
I look already forward to the Normadie and Ardennen map!



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Message Edited on 09/21/0301:06PM by JG53-Falkster

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 01:06 PM
That would make ME happy anyway/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Looks like that map would cover the F19 operational area as well. If we could get I-15bis with that (Gladiator is on the way as I have understood) I would be even more happier (guess that Hawker Hart is too much to hope for).


Cheers mates

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Message Edited on 09/21/0302:19PM by F19_Orheim

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 01:42 PM
Did F19 fly in the normal Finnland map as well? If yes, as soon as the Gladiator is flyable, Starshoy and I could make a swedish career for Finland. But for that Oleg will have to add "Sweden" as a nation (hope you dont mind being an Axis power). Adding Swedes to the campaign would be quite easy, but we would need ranks and medals and such. Also, a sweedish speechpack would be nice for that, if the Gladiators had radios. The Rumanians, Poles and Slovaks have or are recording one, but they have the advantage of having flyable planes in FB allready.

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Message Edited on 09/21/0301:35PM by theRealAntEater

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 03:56 PM
Yes, yes, Murmansk!

Safanov and the boys of the 2GvSAP could give the enemy a thrashing while making sure the supplies get to the Rodina!

True, you have to put up with crappy old Hurri's (and they took away the I-16's!), but the P-40 has a nice heater and the the red spinner on the P-39 looks nice...

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 04:01 PM
Quite a good idea actually /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 04:05 PM
Dart 2 GSAP had a lot (16?) of I-16s after the first week of the war, also an eskadrilya of Migs. Then Hurris, P-40s and Cobras. Quite a fun mix. And SBs and Pe-2s of course.

_____________
Ian Boys
=38=Tatarenko
Kapitan - 38. OIAE

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 04:10 PM
theRealAntEater wrote:
- Did F19 fly in the normal Finnland map as well? If
- yes, as soon as the Gladiator is flyable, Starshoy
- and I could make a swedish career for Finland. But
- for that Oleg will have to add "Sweden" as a nation
- (hope you dont mind being an Axis power). Adding
- Swedes to the campaign would be quite easy, but we
- would need ranks and medals and such.


No not really. F19 was a the Swedish Airborne volunteer unit and had their area of defence up North, around Kemi and eastwards.

Sure there were Swedish Volunteers who flew down south as well, but they were a part of the regular Finnish squadrons.

The guys in F19 flew J8 and J8A (the Swedish designation for Gloster Gladiator MK 1. J8A looked exactly as the J8 but had a stronger engine, that of MK 2 I would guess), and Hawker Hart.

To add Sweden as a nation in IL2 would be a little strange as Sweden was neutral, even though there were thousands of volunteers who risked and lost their lifes to help Finland defend itself against the Soviets during the Winterwar 39-40

- Also, a
- sweedish speechpack would be nice for that, if the
- Gladiators had radios. The Rumanians, Poles and
- Slovaks have or are recording one, but they have the
- advantage of having flyable planes in FB allready.
-

To my knowledge they didn't have radio (someone else knows?), but a key for morsecode.

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Message Edited on 09/21/03‚ 05:11PM by F19_Orheim

Message Edited on 09/21/0305:13PM by F19_Orheim

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 04:15 PM
Ok, but a Murmansk map would be very large when it included Kemi.
For my taste, it should have Kirkenes as western and maybe Murmashi as the eastern border

But fighting with the Aces of JG 5 would be great, also a very good Me 110 Campaign with the "Dackelstaffel". Something where to put all that new 110 loadouts to a good use. 13.(Z.) JG 5 was the last frontline day fighter unit with Me 110, they flew it until late 1944.
Also it was the only fighter squadron ever commanded by a non-pilot, Oblt. "Fritze" Friedrich, a highly experienced Radioman.
Also the Douglas Boston I've seen would be great as Me 109 fodder during the "great Summer of JG 5" 1943.
A typical mission would be Me 110s and 109s covering a convoy bound for Petsamo, and soviet Bostons, Pe-2s, P-40s and Airacobras attacking it.

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XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 04:38 PM
The KG30 was in banak the often flown how i already said, missions against ship konvois, murmansk docks, murmansktrains, airflieds in niwa/Schongui/warlamovo/murmaschi, infantry.
They mined also the Kolabuch and flew supplying employments for the Finnish army and and and..........

Damn i cant find my book about the dackelgeschwader....

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Message Edited on 09/21/0304:43PM by JG53-Falkster

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 04:52 PM
Basically, you can seperate the Murmansk operation into serveral phases, each year brought different operations.
1941 saw the Luftflotte 5 mostly striking targets in Murmansk and in support of Dietl's Gebirgsj√¬§ger at the Liza front
1942 was the year of the Convoy battles. Ju 88s and Me 110s attacked convoys. Fighters mostly flew sweeps over soviet Airfields and Zerst√¬∂rer undertook long range railway hunt missions.
1943 the soviets took the initiative and started a massive air campaign against german supply convoys bound for Kirkenes and Petsame. That led to huge air battles, in which Pilots like Weissenberger, Schuck, Ehrler and so scored heavily. 5 or 6 kills in a mission were not exceptional during that phase. The Soviets used mainly P-40s and P-39s and Douglas Bostons, while JG 5 flew G-2s.
1944 the soviets started attacking the german airfields and JG 5 was not really able to do much more than scramble and try to defend at least Petsamo. When the finnish changed side, the Artic front collapsed and JG 5 fled to western Norway, but that is another story.....

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XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 06:51 PM
Concerning the use of radio at F19:


F19_Orheim wrote:

- To my knowledge they didn't have radio (someone else
- knows?), but a key for morsecode.


My mistake, just had a glance in a book by Greger Falk (one of the pilots in F19).

This is a report from Ture Hansson, one of the gunners in a Hart, during the first F19 attack at a enemy airbase at the lake of M√¬§rkaj√¬§rvi

I quote (and try to translate /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

"
"Take another picture before we get into a dive" Fernstr√¬∂m is shouting. Easy for him to say, but up with the camera, adjust it correctly - all movement learnt in by heart. And then we dived again - camera, cassettes, maps, equipment, all in a mess as we enter the dive.

"Hello, hello Blue Kalle from Blue Bertil, enemy at eleven o'clock, over"

The radiocall from Sj√¬∂qvist means that our enemy is to the left of us on higher altitude. Hell yes, there they are, nine of them. Man, they are really high. throttle forward, turn on the gunsight, ready the machineguns. But this isn't working!!!! More throttle, more throttle, MORE THROTTLE!!! We are loosing them, more throttle!!!! But there is no more throttle.
The lever that adjust the last necessary injection has reach it's limit - (after landing, I notice that the lever has been bent in my desperate try to catch up with them for attack. Metal chips in the oil indicates that my engine almost burned).



Thus, they did have radios /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Cheers mates!


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Message Edited on 09/21/0310:20PM by F19_Orheim

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 07:13 PM
Here is another disturbing, but quite interesting depiction of the same attack seen above, told by the Fightersquadronleader Ian Iacobi, in a J8A (Gloster Gladiator)

I quote (and try to translate.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

During our way to M√¬§rkaj√¬§rvi-Salla, we were escorting the attackgroup (the Harts). When we reached M√¬§rkaj√¬§rvi, we could see a heavy troop column on the road, and also troops in the village. In that same moment the Harts dived to attack the discovered targets. Now it was our turn. In a dive against the Soviet trops on the road east of M√¬§rkaj√¬§rvi, we dropped our bombs and continued with our machineguns on lowest altitude in a sic-sac pattern over the road

Suddenly a horse-pulled sled, likely loaded with ammunition, exploded, with the horse thrown up in the air. One of the fighters behind me had got a perfect hit on the sled, with the result that the horse suddenly appeared to the right of my wing. This episode from our first war-effort I will never forget.

After the attack on the troops and vehicles, some of our fighters came into position to attack the enemy airbase on the lake M√¬§rkaj√¬§rvi. I myself discovered a Soviet I-15 in a right turn which was trying from below to get into position on a Gladiator. A short tight bank to the right led me to a fiering position before the I-15 had time to pull the trigger.

I got a direct hit and the enemy aircraft made a half-roll and went down in the woods. Only a few minutes after the "horseincident", I got another war experience.



Cheers




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Message Edited on 09/21/0308:14PM by F19_Orheim

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:08 AM
Ah, yes wonder how come nobody has posted this before.. Murmansk would be very nice map.. lot of train targets to be strafed with BF-110, ship convoy strafing.. dive bombing with Ju-88... now that sounds very nice! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.leosk.org/kuvat/110.jpg</a>

BF-110s of 13(Z) JG5 over Murmansk on summer 1941

http://www.leosk.org/kuvat/Ju-88_D1.jpg</a>

1.(F)/Aufkl.Gr.22 Ju-88 D1 Flying above polar sea summer 1943

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 02:32 PM
The Forum is spinning fast with all those bf109 threads /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
bump


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Message Edited on 09/22/0303:15PM by JG53-Falkster

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:43 PM
ianboys wrote:
- Dart 2 GSAP had a lot (16?) of I-16s after the first
- week of the war, also an eskadrilya of Migs. Then
- Hurris, P-40s and Cobras. Quite a fun mix. And SBs
- and Pe-2s of course.
-
- _____________
- Ian Boys
- =38=Tatarenko
- Kapitan - 38. OIAE
-


Absolutely!

http://www.2gvsap.org is our little squadron, a tiny way of paying honor to those brave flyers!

They also had some IL-2's, and, at the end, the P-47's. There was a real advantage to being the guys that ensured the lend-lease stuff arrived safely - they got to keep a lot of it!

Murmansk has all the really cool planes doing all the really tough tasks - the skies over that part of the front, in the airwar, was completely different than at other parts in 1941-3.

I'd love to see someone plug the I-15bis into the sim!

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:44 PM
If there was one map I could add to FB, this would be it. Excellent example of a "forgotten battle." However, since so much of the action revolved around anti-shipping ops, I don't think the campaigns could be done justice without more complex ship DMs and better modelling of anti-ship attacks (torpedoes, skip-bombing, etc.). Also, the lack of carrier ops in the game could prove problematic in telling the "whole story" of the Murmansk front.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:50 PM
I've been secretly hoping that the new airfield shots from Ian are actually from a "Murmansk Front" map, and not from a Battle of the Bulge or some online map. Well, he did use I-16s in several of the shots and I think I see ocean in the top corner of this one:

http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/devupdate/5Sep/_airbase1.jpg


Well, I can pretend, can't I?

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:53 PM
Except for the "Kirkenes Massacre" carriers did not play any role in the direct artic front.
Don't confuse Murmansk front with the west Coast of Norway. These were two seperate theaters of war.
The theater we're talking about is the Murmansk land front and the immidiate coastal waters from Kirkenes to Polyarnoe.
British and carriers appeared exactly twice (except for the odd recon Mosquito): The costly carrier Raid on Kirkenes and Petsamo in August 1941 and the short tour of those two RAF fighter squadrons in the same year.

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:57 PM
LOL AKD trying to narrow down a patch of snow in Russia to any particular place ... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Like "look there's some sand, must be Tunisia. Or Iwo Jima. Or Palestine. Or Bermuda."

_____________
Ian Boys
=38=Tatarenko
Kapitan - 38. OIAE

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 10:18 PM
ianboys wrote:
- LOL AKD trying to narrow down a patch of snow in
- Russia to any particular place ... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- Like "look there's some sand, must be Tunisia. Or
- Iwo Jima. Or Palestine. Or Bermuda."
-
- _____________
- Ian Boys
- =38=Tatarenko
- Kapitan - 38. OIAE
-

Wait, wait, wait! In the upper, right corner, just along the treeline, I think I see a reindeer! Clearly this is an Artic map!

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:31 AM
Ian, what's this winkage from V. Kochmarsky (B-25 project) at netwings.org in regards to the usefulness of an Hampden model in FB:

"'>And a real surprise: "Active on the Eastern Front"???'
They were used by Soviet Naval airforce from Murmansk area as torpedo bombers. Would be usefull with some new maps, coming in addon. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Though they weren't popular among soviet crews...'"

Can I get a wink in return? At what point does a wink smiley become a glaring, one-eyed stare-down? If I said "Murmansk" and a pirate closed his one good eye, what would that mean?

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:05 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif?

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:14 PM
bump - brilliant theater of war for this sim


" give me a russian 2-engine bomber "