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View Full Version : Real pilots ever use rudders while firing?(US pilots)



XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:45 AM
I've found it to be some what effective while playing FB. Yes I know its just a d4mn game and it isn't even close to real life, but thats why I've asked this question. I'm another victem of curiosity.
Since this forum is filled with knowledge ,but deeply lacking of personal experiance while flying and fighting I believe your responses, if any will be..... quite varied.

Forgive me please, once again, I can never seem to fill my curiosity's appetite and your answers may enlighten my level of knowledge on the subject and perhaps others as well.



Yea if she wasn't a nazi and she was still alive,

I'd hump her.


ftp://63.15.185.43/hannah.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:45 AM
I've found it to be some what effective while playing FB. Yes I know its just a d4mn game and it isn't even close to real life, but thats why I've asked this question. I'm another victem of curiosity.
Since this forum is filled with knowledge ,but deeply lacking of personal experiance while flying and fighting I believe your responses, if any will be..... quite varied.

Forgive me please, once again, I can never seem to fill my curiosity's appetite and your answers may enlighten my level of knowledge on the subject and perhaps others as well.



Yea if she wasn't a nazi and she was still alive,

I'd hump her.


ftp://63.15.185.43/hannah.jpg

RichardI
08-29-2003, 12:51 AM
EStare:-
According to my sources, yes, they did. Several books I've read by U.S. pilots anyway, said they used that tecnique when strafing ground targets. They described it as "spraying lead" on a ground target.
I can't say that I recall any of them saying they used the rudder in air-to-air battles though. Maybe someone else out there has another source.
I'm guessing it might have been very useful against the bigger bombers. Not sure on that one.

Rich /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:51 AM
Maybe not. Guncam footage doesn't seem to show the plane yawing while firing. But then most guncam footage I've seen appears to be from fighters using MG fire.

When I was flying Janes WW II Fighters, during the training tracks for attacking ground targets, they said to use your rudder to swing the a/c side to side to cover more ground. I've used the technique effectively since then. Except when flying an IL-2 3M-Late....those monster cannons move the plane all by themselves.

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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:54 AM
When you are flying (in real life), your feet are on the rudders at all times. It would be absolutely silly to keep your pedals perfectly centered if the shot required correction.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 01:56 AM
Rudder is a primarly flight control, if you are not constantly using it to counter torque and yaw you won't ever get out of basic flight training.

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About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 02:33 AM
I am in the Air FOrce and have flown the B-2 Stealth simulator. The B-2 only uses the rudder for taxiing.

AFDiamond

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 02:37 AM
the rudder on a plane serves the same purpose as the handlebars on a motorcycle


yes .. you could turn a motorcycle without moving the handlebars just by leaning .. but it doesnt work very well .. same with planes and no rudder

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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 02:51 AM
AFDiamond wrote:
- I am in the Air FOrce and have flown the B-2 Stealth
- simulator. The B-2 only uses the rudder for taxiing.

Forgive the hook in my mouth, but...a rudder? On a B-2?


---
There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.
(If I knew who said that first, I'd give credit here.)

HL callsign: FruitPieJones, and why not?

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 03:05 AM
AFDiamond wrote:
- I am in the Air FOrce and have flown the B-2 Stealth
- simulator. The B-2 only uses the rudder for taxiing.
-
- AFDiamond
-
-

Forgive my laughter if it appears here but as someone pointed out before I could... A rudder on a B2 huh.... rotlflamo.

It has a steer wheel for the nose gear while taxing yes, but a Rudder...... lol hahaha.

http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 03:45 AM
Real WW2 pilots used everything on that plane to stay alive and kill the other guy or render him ineffective, from trim, to flaps, to rudder,pitch and the pane itself. Corsair pilots were known to bring thier plane on Zeros and run them into the ground. Whatever you haveto use you use.

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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:20 AM
AFDiamond wrote:
- I am in the Air FOrce and have flown the B-2 Stealth
- simulator. The B-2 only uses the rudder for taxiing.
-
- AFDiamond
-
-

Except that the plane lacks a rudder completely...thus all the years of research into the tailess flying wing.

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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:31 AM
Bob Johnson, first US pilot to equal Eddie Rickenbacker's WWI record, relates in his book, "Thunderbolt!" a narrow escape he had from an FW-190. Johnson was already shot-up and limping home when he encountered an FW-190 that only had 7.62 mm left. Johnson was already a cripple so the FW closed to minimum range and proceeded to "hammer" the P-47 with the .30 cal. The FW used his rudder to "saw" or "stitch" his mg rounds back and forth across Johnson's fu****e.

Bob forced the FW to overshoot once and proceeded to fire an ineffective burst in defiance, the Thunderbolt didn't have a working gunsight at that point, which caused the FW to hang further back when it proceeded to repeat its attack. After exhausting its .30 cal, the FW flew along-side Johnson, inspected the Thunderbolt from wingtip-to-wingtip range and just shook his head in amazement that the P-47 was still airborne and that he didn't shoot it down.

Adler52

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:36 AM
Making no comments about the first obvious fact that the B-2 is not a fighter and therefore gunnery is kinda irrelevant!

The B-2 does, from the pilot's perspective, have a rudder the cockpit controls are there, and the aircraft responds to their use in more or less the traditional fashion. These work by adding drag on the the side that the pedal
is pushed.



As far as teh original question, it has already been answered, that the pilot is constantly using the rudder. . .which would of course include while firing.


S!
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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:39 AM
Are you asking if pilots use the rudder to help target accuratley? If you are asking, then the answer is of course, and your also an idiot/ or dont have very much expierience flying an aircraft.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 11:17 AM
Dolemite- wrote:
- Are you asking if pilots use the rudder to help
- target accuratley? If you are asking, then the
- answer is of course, and your also an idiot/ or dont
- have very much expierience flying an aircraft.

Now that was about the most uncalled for reply I've seen in a while. The guy stated that he does not know if it is used, figures it should be used and asks if it is. And yes, it is.

But assuming things in aviation is a fast way to get yourself killed. So, if you have the option, ask, ask, ask! You have asked too much when people tell you to go **** yourself. When that happens, give it a 24h rest and continue asking... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cheers,
Fred

"If we are an arrogant nation, they will resent us. If we are a humble nation, but strong, they will welcome us."
- George W. Bush, during his campaign. No comment.

(Quote brought back by popular demand - RBJ missed it so much he mailed me about it)

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 02:24 PM
Dolemite-

Ease off on the attitude bud. Not everyone flies a plane in RL and it was a valid question. No need to be an ***.

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************************************
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Arnold Toynbee

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 03:44 PM
AFDiamond wrote:
- I am in the Air FOrce and have flown the B-2 Stealth
- simulator. The B-2 only uses the rudder for taxiing.
-
- AFDiamond
-
-

Try that trick in a real prop A/C Diamond. To answer the question pilots were trained to "walk" the rudders when attacking ground targets, and I believe I've read pilots accounts of using rudder during air to air to align themselves with where they needed to aim very quickly.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:16 PM
I think Chuck Yeager said that he used the rudder a lot and that many inexperienced pilots simply didn't understand the importance of rudder input.

IIRC, he saw several pilots who, because of yaw while turning or firing, weren't using rudder properly.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:43 PM
Oh yes, rudders were for directional adjustments, so of course.

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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 05:02 PM
Though I agree that the rudder was used at all times during flight, even while shooting (there are some obvious German guncam footages attacking bomber groups, where the aircraft 'saws' back and forth, or even misjudges approach); it should be noted that rudder has a strong effect on gunnery, much more pronounced than your 'average' sim pilot might realize, especially with wing mounted weapons. The effect can be seen in Il-2/FB, even the most slight rudder yaw causes gun barrels to change direction a considerable amount, and out at 200m the effect is multiplied many times over. This effect is commonly 'underestimated', and coupled with the fact your aircraft is no longer moving 'straight' through the air the necessary calculations to put lead on target skyrocket in complexity (from an already complex level).

So while it can help to yaw the aircraft, it definitely complicates the @#$% out of hitting your target, thats why gunnery training teaches you to shoot with the 'ball' centered.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 05:08 PM
VW-IceFire wrote:

- Except that the plane lacks a rudder
- completely...thus all the years of research into the
- tailess flying wing.

It lacks a vertical tail, but it does in fact have a rudder.


I believe it's called a differential drag rudder. Basically the ailerons are split horizontally (there is a top and bottom). When banking they function as a single unit, with the top and bottom moving in unison.

When a rudder input is given (right rudder, for example), the aileron on the right side of the wing will split, with both halves extending into the airstream to create drag (the top goes up and the bottom goes down). The result is almost exactly the same as if you had a vertical tail with a conventional rudder.

As for using rudder in fighters in combat, I don't think it's used much (if at all) today, but in the old prop aircraft it was definitely used. It's great in a head on pass where the other aircraft goes to one side or the other. Kicking in rudder just as they go past allows you to track the target and nearly fire "sideways", which can double or even triple your firing time on the target.

I've also found it to be extremely accurate, and it accounts for a significant amount of the head on kills I've scored.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 05:23 PM
If you don't keep the ball centered you won't hit what you're aiming at.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 05:25 PM
Please don't refer to FB as "just a damn game", pacman, mario bros, street fighter.. those are only damn games, yes

but not a highly realistic WWII flight simulator like FB.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 07:54 PM
No one defined rudder as that moving part of a vertical stabilizer...the B-2's amazing control surfaces do function as a rudder in flight, but the crews are taught not use them for anything but taxiing. Just an observation...

AFDiamond.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 07:54 PM
Effe: Interesting Quote from George W. As we have seen over the last few years George Bush certainly doesn't practice what he preaches. Humility in the geo political arena is a term completely foreign to his admimistration.



- "If we are an arrogant nation, they will resent
- us. If we are a humble nation, but strong, they will
- welcome us." - - George W. Bush, during his campaign. No
- comment.
-
- (Quote brought back by popular demand - RBJ
- missed it so much he mailed me about it)

ZG77_Nagual
08-29-2003, 08:21 PM
Of course the rudder is used to line up targets - in the simm as it was in real life - the effectiveness of the rudder varies with aircraft and diminishes with speed. Rudder also assists roll rate - also depending on type an speed.
B2 has airbrakes to turn the aircraft laterally - oops, i see binary has explained the split-alerons thingy allready.

As an american citizen I am legally prohibited from making negative comments about our government without possible dire-consequence. This is for my own good and to protect my freedom of speech.

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Message Edited on 08/29/0303:23PM by ZG77_Nagual

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 08:33 PM
The bonus of actually getting your enemy in your sites was never wasted. The ones that came back alive would use any technique, no matter how small, to get an accurate shot off. Rudder control is included in the bag of tricks and I've seen footage of P-47's squatting back and forth as they sprayed both ground targets and targets in the air (usually bombers).

The_Blue_Devil
08-29-2003, 08:41 PM
AFDiamond wrote:
- I am in the Air FOrce and have flown the B-2 Stealth
- simulator. The B-2 only uses the rudder for taxiing.
-
- AFDiamond
-
-

....

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

Message Edited on 08/29/0307:44PM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 08:44 PM
Using the rudder is great for spraying targets, but for accurate sniping you have to center the ball so that bullets are flying straight. When you're yawing, you cannot accurately judge where your bullet stream will converge by your gunsight.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 08:48 PM
World War2 Pilots were told to use rudder when strafing ground targets especially if they were approaching a target and were perpindicular to it. Alternating between left and right rudder could allow them to strafe for instance a vehicle column from nosoe to tail thereby maximizing the damage to that column. P47's with 8 50 Cals achieved devasting effects on enemy trains and transport columns by using rudder.

I have tried this in FB with P40's and P47's and the effects are great not to mention the dirt and dust thrown up as the bullets hit the ground in a scattered format. Looks very similar to the gun camera footage I have seen of aircraft doing this.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 09:02 PM
ZG77_Lignite wrote:
there are some
- obvious German guncam footages attacking bomber
- groups, where the aircraft 'saws' back and forth, or
- even misjudges approach

Glad Lig brought this up. There's a great video called Guncamera Footage of WWII. Early in it there is footage of 109s and 190s shooting up B-17s and B-24s. In one sequence a German plane is firing at a B-17 and you can see the tracers missing. Then you see a very deliberate rudder correction and he starts landing the rounds on target. Best example I've seen on film.



Message Edited on 08/29/0308:03PM by LilHorse

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 10:03 PM
Adler52 wrote:
- Bob Johnson, first US pilot to equal Eddie
- Rickenbacker's WWI record, relates in his book,
- "Thunderbolt!" a narrow escape he had from an
- FW-190. Johnson was already shot-up and limping
- home when he encountered an FW-190 that only had
- 7.62 mm left. Johnson was already a cripple so the
- FW closed to minimum range and proceeded to "hammer"
- the P-47 with the .30 cal. The FW used his rudder
- to "saw" or "stitch" his mg rounds back and forth
- across Johnson's fu****e.
-
- Bob forced the FW to overshoot once and proceeded to
- fire an ineffective burst in defiance, the
- Thunderbolt didn't have a working gunsight at that
- point, which caused the FW to hang further back when
- it proceeded to repeat its attack. After exhausting
- its .30 cal, the FW flew along-side Johnson,
- inspected the Thunderbolt from wingtip-to-wingtip
- range and just shook his head in amazement that the
- P-47 was still airborne and that he didn't shoot it
- down.
-
- Adler52


!
Wait a sec, I know that story, lemme get the German pilots name!


OK, I can't find the German pilots name, but the attacker was from II/JG-26.

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 01:35 AM
In a Cessna or typical Piper, I don't use the rudders much except on takeoff, landing and taxiing. A C-172 turns so nicely that the ball stays pretty darned centered in turns up to 35 or 40 degrees. A little nudged will center it perfectly, but neither me or my passengers ever notice the difference ( in feel ) between using it or not using it. But military planes are another story. I use my rudders all the time in FB, especially when I'm trying to do hammerheads and such.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 01:43 AM
EStare, sorry, no offense.

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 04:21 AM
Try finding a movie called "A Fighter Pilots Story" it aired on PBS a while back. It has some great guncams that clearly show the pilot correcting with rudder.

http://pages.prodigy.com/fighterpilot/ - check the bottom of the page for the cost. Too bad it's VHS only.

Anyway, I think it was during this movie/narrative/documentary of WWII pilots that someone asked an older chap if he would ever shoot the enemy pilot in his chute. The man said yes, and i believe states that he might give a little rudder and shoot. His reasoning was that if he did not kill this other pilot, he would be in the sky the next day or the one after that killing his friends.(bomber crews)

For those that think flying "Full Real" in FB is the only real pilots way of doing things i offer you up this true story:
"From the time I first went into combat, I could see that the odds were great that I would ultimately be shot down. Each night while lying on my cot, I would review the procedure for bailing out. I wanted to have everything clearly fixed in my mind, so the process would be as close to automatic as possible.
"On August 8, 1944, I was flying at 13,000 feet on a mission near Paris, when I was hit by 88mm flak. Oil covered my canopy, and it was apparent I was going down. Doing things exactly as I had planned, I trimmed the plane to roll left, then dived head first out the right side. The next thing I knew, I was trapped in a vacuum under the belly of the plane - which was apparently created by the prop wash and air coming over the top of the wing. Oil was all over me and the plane, and I had to get my hands and knees against the belly of the plane and push myself off. I landed on a small haystack, and within a short period of time I was picked up by the Germans. Unfortunately, they were members of the SS, and instead of being sent to a POW camp, I was sent to the concentration camp at Buchenwald.

"Eighty-one other American airmen were held there. On two occasions I was told that I would be shot the next morning; they would go through the whole process of preparing for the execution, then change their minds. At the end of three months I was nothing but skin and bones, and felt I was approaching death. Then the Luftwaffe interceded, and all of the Americans at Buchenwald were transferred to Stalag Luft 3. With the approach of Russian and American forces in late April 1945, we were all able to walk away to safety. But I am still haunted by those events in 1944 and 1945."
Lt. Glenn Horwege
Luke Field - Class of 44-A


.....so when FB has you peeing yourself because you can't get away from your plane when you try to bail....perhaps then i'll turn my damn icons off/or cockpit/or whatever your whiney pet peve is, 'til then though, F__k Off.

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XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 04:47 AM
I'm already a terrible shot, and if not for the corrections I can make with the rudder, I'd be even worse.

If my gunsight is pointing at his wing tip, for example, I'd have to bank, and readjust using the elevator, and that takes far too much time.

With the rudder - boom - I'm there. Doesn't mean I'll kill him, but damnit, he's gonna know I mean business! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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