PDA

View Full Version : OT A sad STATE of affairs



JG6_Oddball
10-10-2007, 08:22 PM
How many of us know someone and or have experienced downsizeing, outsourceing , position removed during consolidation, buyout, merger....etc where we or they lost there jobs or had to take lower paying ones, I have been layed off 2 jobs in the last year due to "lack of work" and have watched for the last 5 years as friends and family go through the same ****....so this article is of no surprise to me...but it is still sad to see where we are heading.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/Advi...notAffordBasics.aspx (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/Advice/StudySaysWorkingPoorCannotAffordBasics.aspx)

S!

fabianfred
10-10-2007, 08:37 PM
It is a pure result of GREED.....

As Mahatma ghandi said....there are enough resources on this planet to feed, clothe, and house every person.......but there is not enough to satisfy a single greedy person

MrMojok
10-10-2007, 08:40 PM
I got outsourced recently. My last month on the job was supposed to be spent training my replacements.

I quit instead.

ImpStarDuece
10-10-2007, 08:50 PM
Ah, Capitalism.

Isn't it wonderful that market led societies are so fair and equitable?

LW_lcarp
10-10-2007, 08:58 PM
6 years ago the company I worked for got bought out. I was told on the 23rd of December I no longer had a job Merry Freaking Christmas to me

JG6_Oddball
10-10-2007, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
I got outsourced recently. My last month on the job was supposed to be spent training my replacements.

I quit instead.

that happend to a guy i worked with, they had him train a new guy and he didnt know it was the guy replacing him for half the price http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

S!

Rjel
10-10-2007, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
It is a pure result of GREED.....

As Mahatma ghandi said....there are enough resources on this planet to feed, clothe, and house every person.......but there is not enough to satisfy a single greedy person

So true.The business world has become very short sighted. It's all about taking profits now, screw the future.

VW-IceFire
10-10-2007, 09:34 PM
Sad...at some point there will be a reversal because the US economy is going to slow so much because consumers who buy the stuff that these companies are outsourcing to (ultimately) won't be able to buy the product. So the companies are going to start hurting too...they really are in the end shooting themselves in the foot.

This is like everything else I've seen recently...short sightedness and the inability to see past ones nose. Many of these companies are focused on short term gains when they really should be working on long term sustainability and profitability (I see it as being worth it to take a hit in a few quarters if the work done during that time puts things in place for better times down the road).

JG6_Oddball
10-10-2007, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Sad...at some point there will be a reversal because the US economy is going to slow so much because consumers who buy the stuff that these companies are outsourcing to (ultimately) won't be able to buy the product. So the companies are going to start hurting too...they really are in the end shooting themselves in the foot.

This is like everything else I've seen recently...short sightedness and the inability to see past ones nose. Many of these companies are focused on short term gains when they really should be working on long term sustainability and profitability (I see it as being worth it to take a hit in a few quarters if the work done during that time puts things in place for better times down the road).

ice the long term investments are going else were....india and china are the 2 fastest growing econmy's in the world, whats sad and funny is they are making home's out of shipping containers in california because we are exporting so few items they have stockpiles of these things...ill try to find the link, What we need is a policy of "if it's bought here it's made here".
heres the link
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2006/06/16/carollloyd.DTL

"these big steel structures now litter the ports of America as mementos of our Asian-trade imbalance."
S!

Bearcat99
10-10-2007, 10:07 PM
It is only going to get worse.

woofiedog
10-10-2007, 10:18 PM
It is a Very sad state of affairs. My wife just lost her job of 27 yr's. They sold off her part of the company and outsourse the rest. 6 yr's short of retirement.

Modern living! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

MLudner
10-10-2007, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Ah, Capitalism.

Isn't it wonderful that market led societies are so fair and equitable?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

This isn't Capitalism, pfft. You actually think we live in a free market? I say again:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Absolute ludicrosity! The current economy is as much a regulated market as was Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, just without the dictator.

And, indeed, how much better it would be to live a society that massacres tens of millions of its own citizens and enslaves the rest.

Sooooooooo much better! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

You know, how can we possibly be sentient considering that we never, ever learn from any experience?

And, you're hearing this from someone who was fired by an idiot whose own decisions made the mess then blamed me for the eminently predictable consequences that I had forseen from the moment the inept buffoon made the decision and has been struggling ever since to find work and may be on the verge of losing almost everything I own.

ImpStarDuece
10-10-2007, 10:47 PM
What your seeing, strangely enough, is the cost of 50 years of economic success in the 'developed' world.

Basic living standards and cost of living are, on average, far higher than in the 'West' than in the rest of the world. This means that average wages are also higher.

For companies concerned about maximising their profit, and giving maximum return to their shareholders and investors, this is a major problem.

In a typical manufacturing industry, labour accounts for between 30% and 40% of total costs, possibly even higher with very skilled workforces.

If you can move your manufacturing base to a nation where the average wage is 1/2 to 1/3rd of that in your existing, then obviously your operating costs are going to go down, and profit goes up. Even better if you gain access to Special Economic Zones, which usually confer generous tax benefits.

Strangely, basic heavy manufacturing, as an activity, is not particularly profitable. Secondary and service industries, which is what most modern economies are based around, typically generate much larger returns on capital and higher operating margins and productivity (value-add) per employee.

So, if you're the CEO of a US manufacturer and you can cut your semi-skilled labour costs by 15% and your tax bill by 10% by moving your manufacturing base to China, all while keeping the majority of your skilled labour and high value add stuff in the US, what do you do?

Hint, under modern economic analysis, companies, like people, are expected to act in their own economic self interest.

ImpStarDuece
10-10-2007, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Ah, Capitalism.

Isn't it wonderful that market led societies are so fair and equitable?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

This isn't Capitalism, pfft. You actually think we live in a free market? I say again:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Absolute ludicrosity! The current economy is as much a regulated market as was Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, just without the dictator.

And, indeed, how much better it would be to live a society that massacres tens of millions of its own citizens and enslaves the rest.

Sooooooooo much better! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

You know, how can we possibly be sentient considering that we never, ever learn from any experience?

And, you're hearing this from someone who was fired by an idiot whose own decisions made the mess then blamed me for the eminently predictable consequences that I had forseen from the moment the inept buffoon made the decision and has been struggling ever since to find work and may be on the verge of losing almost everything I own. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is indeed capitalism (where the major economic unit in the economy is privately owned companies operated for profit) and I said market led not free market, two very different things.

Actually, the current level of economic regulation in the West is at a historic low.

In no way can you compare the fascist, hybrid command economies of the 1930s, with their focus on Government-led restructuring and development following the Great Depression, to modern market led economies and hope to be taken seriously.

We do live under a capitalist system. Not purely capitalist, but then again, no system of pure capitalism (where the market derives all costs and prices) has ever existed. Communist societies got closer to their ideal economies than capitalist ones ever had, something that eventually ended up helping the West (but that is another story).

Constrained capitalism allows us to apply external solutions to major market failures, to prevent them for unnecessarily damaging the economy or society.

Stew278
10-10-2007, 11:31 PM
And they wonder why people of my generation seem so apathetic and unmotivated. Maybe it's because we realize the current people in charge are selling out our futures in the name of a quick profit.

I seriously doubt I will even be able to find a job if I finish school. You hear all these tech industry execs talking about how America doesn't have enough engineers and scientists to fill the openings, I don't believe it. The US students in my department are having a heck of a time finding jobs whereas the Indian students get snapped up right away by US companies. For some reason a lot of the Chinese students choose not to seek jobs here though.

It's bad enough companies outsource the jobs, now they are giving the jobs that are still here to foreigners. But since the people running the gov't are the same people reaping the profits, nothing will be done about any of this. Pretty soon we'll all be working low-paying, service sector jobs.

My dad worked as a machinist for 25 years at one company, then they canned all of their workers and moved shop 200miles away so they could hire non-union workers. Now they employ mostly illegals. He got another job and after about a year they laid off 2/3 of their workers a week before X-mas. Even for skilled labor like he does the US companies can't compete with cheap overseas sources.

Like fabianfred said, it is just greed. The richest 0.1% aren't satisfied having almost all the money, they need to exploit everyone they can to fatten their bank accounts even more. If they ruin some lives along the way tough, that's life. Nothing short of gov't intervention will change this trend. But the gov't is more interested in facilitating it than abating it.

triad773
10-10-2007, 11:49 PM
All this is tooo familiar: I'm 45 yrs old; I've changed careers 3 times in my life because the sector(s) I work in are being downsized/outsourced/paid less, and recently I've been considering if I should change careers yet again to something in renewable energy technology.

There certainly will be an increased need for that as time goes on and energy prices continue to climb.

fabianfred
10-11-2007, 12:27 AM
...share holders and investors

they are the root of the problem

BaldieJr
10-11-2007, 02:20 AM
share holders and investors are we!

there should be a law against us!

Schmouddle-WT
10-11-2007, 04:03 AM
Real Socialism of Czechoslovakian Socialist Republic of the 80'ies on you guys.

At that time, everybody got a proper job I mean it was an obligation, nobody got to travel abroad, VERY limited options on housing (people waited 20 years to get a flat in a concrete block of flats), sometimes shortage of toilet paper because the raw material was needed elsewhere....Sh1te.

Be glad you have lived your past where you did. There are FAR worse things than greedy capitalism.

CVK_Monkey
10-11-2007, 04:51 AM
You guys never experienced a situation that a food shop shelves is empty... that you can't buy toothpaste or bananas and if it was possible some clerk inside the shop said to you that you can buy only 4 bananas, because there is plenty of others in the line behind you...

You never lived in world where succes was punished, where people watched each other and call secret state police if you bought car made outside socialistic block...

You can't even imagine that soldier were ordered to shoot you if you decided to leave the country and cross the borders...

You can't imagine you could be in prison for years if you would complain publicly or even privately about state system and its errors... You could say that Breznev is a murderer and you ended in jail...

You have everything now, you are lazy, bored westerners who just want to live same easy life like your fathers... But times changed... Now all around the world wants the life of your fathers... they work hard and cheaper than you... they want to win... you don't because you think that your fathers already won... but race continue... work hard, educate and you don't need to be worry about your job...

born in 1974 in communist country Czechoslovakia... I saw terrible things, but still not so terrible like in Russia, China or Kambodia...
Be grateful, you have so BIG and many opportunities to do with your life and nobody dictate to you that this is forbidden...

CVK_Monkey
10-11-2007, 05:06 AM
and I am not mentioning lives of my parents or grandparents... that really SUCKED hard... socialists and communists while creating new better world and new betterhuman - communist, just make a slaves of them... and used them... and destroyed their dreams and wishes...
there is nothing like better and just for all world... anyone who promises to make it for you is just a very dangerous liar...

you complain that you had to change carrier for 3 time in 45 years of life... LOL... here in 45 nobody wants to hire you, because "you are OLD so die", we don't care anymore...

Blutarski2004
10-11-2007, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by CVK_Monkey:
You guys never experienced a situation that a food shop shelves is empty... that you can't buy toothpaste or bananas and if it was possible some clerk inside the shop said to you that you can buy only 4 bananas, because there is plenty of others in the line behind you...

You never lived in world where succes was punished, where people watched each other and call secret state police if you bought car made outside socialistic block...

You can't even imagine that soldier were ordered to shoot you if you decided to leave the country and cross the borders...

You can't imagine you could be in prison for years if you would complain publicly or even privately about state system and its errors... You could say that Breznev is a murderer and you ended in jail...

You have everything now, you are lazy, bored westerners who just want to live same easy life like your fathers... But times changed... Now all around the world wants the life of your fathers... they work hard and cheaper than you... they want to win... you don't because you think that your fathers already won... but race continue... work hard, educate and you don't need to be worry about your job...

born in 1974 in communist country Czechoslovakia... I saw terrible things, but still not so terrible like in Russia, China or Kambodia...
Be grateful, you have so BIG and many opportunities to do with your life and nobody dictate to you that this is forbidden...


..... Thank you, sir. Words of wisdom and true down to the very last syllable.

ploughman
10-11-2007, 06:18 AM
When I was a kid the loo was outside at the end of the yard, now I have a selection of centrally heated indoor commodes to chose from. That, gentlemen, is progress.

Bartsimpson-
10-11-2007, 07:33 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JG6_Oddball:
How many of us know someone and or have experienced downsizeing, outsourceing , position removed during consolidation, buyout, merger....etc where we or they lost there jobs or had to take lower paying ones, I have been layed off 2 jobs in the last year due to "lack of work" and have watched for the last 5 years as friends and family go through the same ****....so this article is of no surprise to me...but it is still sad to see where we are heading.


Try this out and earn in excess of $100,000.00 au per year if your willing to relocate for a stretch .

> http://www.totalgroup.com.au/

Bartman .

alert_1
10-11-2007, 07:58 AM
Are we still living in democracy?

M_Gunz
10-11-2007, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Stew278:
It's bad enough companies outsource the jobs, now they are giving the jobs that are still here to foreigners.

NOW? What's this now? LOL!
I graduated HS in 75 and jobs were fewer then but then cost of living was lower too.

14 1/2 years later I'm working with a guy from the Philippines that was having a problem...
* He was brought here in 1975 to work.
* He was set up with a job, the company paid half the wage and taxes paid the rest.
* He was set up with a car and license, free.
* He was set up with a home he had to pay $99/mo of the $300-some/mo mortgage, taxes paid the rest.
* In almost 15 years he never had to pay FICA because he never got citizenship.

= Easy job with good pay, always have a car, OWNS his home -- what's his problem?

After 15 years he has to decide to become a citizen and PAY FICA or leave!

At that point he had the house up for sale and ready to go back to his real home and live
like a king on the proceeds, the house worth about 200 grand.

In 1976 with bills to pay, I got to become a soldier. 30 years later I'm reading about
how N O W the government is bringing foreigners in.

As long as people vote for THE WALL STREET PARTY we will get this kind of $#!+-ridden
treatment IN FULL. Those are the guys with the stated GOAL of breaking the unions but to
them all LABOR is just people to keep down and willing to work more for less. They have
been at it for over 100 years despite the messes they've made again and again.

Rammjaeger
10-11-2007, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by CVK_Monkey:
You guys never experienced a situation that a food shop shelves is empty... that you can't buy toothpaste or bananas and if it was possible some clerk inside the shop said to you that you can buy only 4 bananas, because there is plenty of others in the line behind you...

You never lived in world where succes was punished, where people watched each other and call secret state police if you bought car made outside socialistic block...

You can't even imagine that soldier were ordered to shoot you if you decided to leave the country and cross the borders...

You can't imagine you could be in prison for years if you would complain publicly or even privately about state system and its errors... You could say that Breznev is a murderer and you ended in jail...


True - but I'm pretty sure the average American finds all this immaterial, and rightfully so. To them it obviously doesn't matter what the standard of living was in Czechoslovakia. You normally compare your standard of living to that of your parents, or people around you, not to that of a people thousands of miles away you probably don't care about in the first place.

By the same line of reasoning you might as well have told the average Czechoslovakian in 1985 that he should be content and happy since he isn't starving to death, like people did in fellow socialist Ethiopia, and that he was never carpet-bombed like the residents of Hanoi.

Comparisons like these are pointless. The normal ambition of every individual is to improve his standard of living, regardless of how people live elsewhere. To throw your hand in the air and say "yeah, free markets and outsourcing are cool, we should compete with the Chinese since we are f--ked anyway" is not the best idea.


they work hard and cheaper than you... they want to win... you don't because you think that your fathers already won...

Of course they do. That's what history is about: you solve certain problems and kill enemies so that your children won't have to deal with either in the future. "I want my children to have a better life than I had", as the saying goes.

Worf101
10-11-2007, 09:09 AM
Welcome aboard...

I am a child of the "working poor". Dad worked as a sharecropper, chauffer, bell hop, cook untill he passed a civil service exam and became a bridge engineer (he was too old for the position but he lied). Mom was a domestic, we lived in the one of Robert Moses housing projects. We lived from paycheck to paycheck, month to month. Never went on welfare, but we did take the gummint cheese.

If private industry had it's way, we'd all be back where I started from, the working poor.

The working poor take what they're given and are glad to get it.

The working poor can't strike cause they're not unionized.

The working poor and their children can't contemplate revolution cause they're too busy trying to keep their head above water.

The working poor are easily manipulated and blame foreigners, other races and othe religions for their lack of success but never the corporations who've stripped their country bare of manufacturing jobs.

Corporations are entities unto themselves, in this and some other countries, the nation means little or nothing. If the country doesn't play ball, take your assets to the next 3rd world hell hole and exploit and poison their people for profit.

I'm amazed people are just waking up to this.

Da Worfster

Blutarski2004
10-11-2007, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by alert_1:
Are we still living in democracy?


..... Mr Roosevelt's quotation can also be paraphrased as follows -

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of GOVERNMENT to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic RIGHTS. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power".

The line we walk is very fine indeed.

alert_1
10-11-2007, 11:02 AM
..... Mr Roosevelt's quotation can also be paraphrased as follows -

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of GOVERNMENT to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic RIGHTS. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power".

The line we walk is very fine indeed.

BLUTARSKI
You is right sir..

stalkervision
10-11-2007, 12:17 PM
" Yes, I'm Dr. Happy Harry Cox, and call me happy because I am!" "Now don't be afraid, here in the 'Nude Age,' because there is a seeker born every minute."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/FT_eykiw.jpg

Psss..."Firesign Theater" episodes are free to listen to at Napster! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

If you never have heard of or listened to "Firesign theater" they are the funniest group of comedians you have ever ever heard.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

very creative! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

MLudner
10-11-2007, 12:21 PM
Sorry, ISD, but you are wrong. You are arguing a market is free so long as it exists within certain bounds of regulation.
Ludicrosity.

One of the tests of whether a market is Free or Regulated is whether or not a business is Public or Private property.

In a Free Market a business is as much private property as someone's home and land.

In a Regulated Market a business is held as Public.

Say, I am goin to open a restaurant. Can I say: "In my restaurant I shall allow my customers to smoke."?

No. The state has decreed that since my restaurant is a public facility smoking shall not be allowed.

That is only one example, I could go on and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on...

Free Market test failed. This is a Regulated Market. You are arguing "We are 5% less regulated than Nazi Germany, therefore we are a Free Market!"
You are falling for word games, anyway. When they say "deregulation" they do not mean deregulation in the sense you are thinking. It actually is nothing more than slightly restructuring the regulations. They "deregulated" the cable industry, for example, and nothing changed. It's all still territorial just as it was before. All they did was restructure, not deregulate. Same with the "deregulation" of energy production in California: They deregulated nothing, but they fouled the entire system with the restructuring and the mistake of one Governor (Wilson) led to the next (His Incompetence: Emperor Grey the Greedy) bungling the consequences so badly that he bankrupted the state.
It would have been better had they actually deregulated it.

Next: I have read all the typical, vacuous and inane comments about greed.

Pfft.

As Abraham Lincoln put it: When it comes to that I would rather go to Russia where despotism can be taken pure, without the base alloy of hypocrisy.
(Note, when he was speaking the Czar's still ruled Russia, in a modern times he would have said China or Cuba)

We are the ones that create the environment you are whining about.

You go to the store shopping for widgets. You find them on the shelf and there are two different widgets. Both are of the same quality and function, either will do the job you require. There is, however, one difference:
Widget A: $10.00
Widget B: $6.50
You buy widget B, of course, as why should you pay $10.00 for something just as good that can be had for $6.50?
Why does widget B cost less than widget A?
The evil corporation that produces widget B produces its widgets in Indonesia where they can produced at less cost and even after the costs of shipping the widgets across the Pacific Ocean are included they saved so much on production that their widgets can be sold at $6.50 instead of $10.00.
The corporation producing widget A will do one of two things: follow suite and find a cheaper means of producing widgets or go out of business.
Which do you think they're going to choose?

The actual problem which you will not understand (NOTA BENE: I said will not, not can not, because it is not that you can not understand, it is that you will not) is that it costs too much to manufacture products in the U.S. anymore as a result of the costs of production, taxation and regulation ... factors which you people refuse to heed or even momentarily consider. Instead, as you stand at the counter with widget B you conrgratulate yourself on your savings, then curse those who provided you with the savings.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Shut up, or buy widget A next time.

han freak solo
10-11-2007, 12:33 PM
"OT A sad STATE of affairs."
What a bummer but true to life.

My biggest problem has always been health insurance. I've never had good health insurance until this year and that is because I married into it since my wife works for a large corporation that provides good health insurance. Retirement options through my work are non-existent.

Then pay changes. My pay has always increased somewhat until 2003 when it got whacked down by 26%. Then I slowly got raises until I peaked to an increase of 16% over the 2003 cut in early 2007. Then just last month I got my pay whacked down again by 14%. I'm not a commissioned employee either.

Sometimes I wish I had a government job. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Viper2005_
10-11-2007, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Worf101:
Welcome aboard...

I am a child of the "working poor". Dad worked as a sharecropper, chauffer, bell hop, cook untill he passed a civil service exam and became a bridge engineer (he was too old for the position but he lied). Mom was a domestic, we lived in the one of Robert Moses housing projects. We lived from paycheck to paycheck, month to month. Never went on welfare, but we did take the gummint cheese.

If private industry had it's way, we'd all be back where I started from, the working poor.

The working poor take what they're given and are glad to get it.

The working poor can't strike cause they're not unionized.

The working poor and their children can't contemplate revolution cause they're too busy trying to keep their head above water.

The working poor are easily manipulated and blame foreigners, other races and othe religions for their lack of success but never the corporations who've stripped their country bare of manufacturing jobs.

Corporations are entities unto themselves, in this and some other countries, the nation means little or nothing. If the country doesn't play ball, take your assets to the next 3rd world hell hole and exploit and poison their people for profit.

I'm amazed people are just waking up to this.

Da Worfster

I think that you are chronically oversimplifying an extremely complicated system. At the risk of doing likewise I shall say this:

If I offer you 2 identical products, A and B, and then tell you that product A costs half as much as product B, I can't say whether you'll buy anything, but I can be pretty confident that you won't buy product B.

Everybody wants to get a better product for a cheaper price. Labour markets are no different. If somebody on the other side of the world can do your job just as well and is prepared to accept half the price for doing that work, you'd better either be prepared to take a 51% pay cut or get a new job.

You can't blame companies for doing the same thing that you do yourself whenever you go shopping.

At the end of the day, labour is a product like any other which must be sold on the open market. If you want your product to be bought then it must offer the consumer an attractive ratio of price to quality. If you want to attain a high price then your product must be scarce, since any other people able to offer the same product and finding themselves without buyers will naturally attempt to attract custom by offering a more attractive price...

This has nothing to do with large companies engaging in some kind of global conspiracy to oppress the downtrodden masses; it's just the result of the group behaviour of our species, which includes both the downtrodden masses and the high-flying millionaires...

In fact, most companies would like nothing more than for the poor to become rich, because then they'd have more money to spend...

buddye1
10-11-2007, 01:19 PM
We live in a world economy. All companies must do business world wide in both quality and price for their products and services. Both companies and consumers must always find the best quality and lowest price to reduce their cost.

Companies and individuals must increase their productivity, quality, and skills to increase their pay and benefits. Again, history has proved this many times. This is a very creative and difficult task for everyone as new smart, educated, and skilled labor keeps showing up world wide.

Those who want to protect and isolate themselves from the world market place will always fail as history has shown.

Stiletto-
10-11-2007, 02:13 PM
This is nothing compared to the future... Your Grandchildren or Great Grandchildren are going to have to deal with robots taking over all manual labor.

Back in the late 70's and 80's Robots started making a large part of cars in the factories, they now have automatic machine checkers at the grocery store so that you don't even have to interact with people. In the next 100 years or less, you will have robots and machines doing all manual labor that doesn't require a mind to create ideas. Almost every kind of manual labor job, from stocking shelves at Wal-Mart to Driving Semi's down highways and giving you drinks at happy hour, anything that doesn't require the machine to create an idea on it's own and can follow a set of programs, it will be done.

Now how much money is a company gonna save having a robot over slave labor in a 3rd world country? After the initial costs and occasional upkeep, there are no wages to be paid.

The future job market for humans are going to move into things where you can't have a machine do it. The only thing left will be fields that involve the arts, unless someday a machine learns how to paint and throw marketing slogans out from scratch.

Worf101
10-11-2007, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Worf101:
Welcome aboard...

I am a child of the "working poor". Dad worked as a sharecropper, chauffer, bell hop, cook untill he passed a civil service exam and became a bridge engineer (he was too old for the position but he lied). Mom was a domestic, we lived in the one of Robert Moses housing projects. We lived from paycheck to paycheck, month to month. Never went on welfare, but we did take the gummint cheese.

If private industry had it's way, we'd all be back where I started from, the working poor.

The working poor take what they're given and are glad to get it.

The working poor can't strike cause they're not unionized.

The working poor and their children can't contemplate revolution cause they're too busy trying to keep their head above water.

The working poor are easily manipulated and blame foreigners, other races and othe religions for their lack of success but never the corporations who've stripped their country bare of manufacturing jobs.

Corporations are entities unto themselves, in this and some other countries, the nation means little or nothing. If the country doesn't play ball, take your assets to the next 3rd world hell hole and exploit and poison their people for profit.

I'm amazed people are just waking up to this.

Da Worfster

I think that you are chronically oversimplifying an extremely complicated system. At the risk of doing likewise I shall say this:

If I offer you 2 identical products, A and B, and then tell you that product A costs half as much as product B, I can't say whether you'll buy anything, but I can be pretty confident that you won't buy product B.

Everybody wants to get a better product for a cheaper price. Labour markets are no different. If somebody on the other side of the world can do your job just as well and is prepared to accept half the price for doing that work, you'd better either be prepared to take a 51% pay cut or get a new job.

You can't blame companies for doing the same thing that you do yourself whenever you go shopping.

At the end of the day, labour is a product like any other which must be sold on the open market. If you want your product to be bought then it must offer the consumer an attractive ratio of price to quality. If you want to attain a high price then your product must be scarce, since any other people able to offer the same product and finding themselves without buyers will naturally attempt to attract custom by offering a more attractive price...

This has nothing to do with large companies engaging in some kind of global conspiracy to oppress the downtrodden masses; it's just the result of the group behaviour of our species, which includes both the downtrodden masses and the high-flying millionaires...

In fact, most companies would like nothing more than for the poor to become rich, because then they'd have more money to spend... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I see some of your points BUT in this case in this country they enjoy sooo many benefits derived from the working poor. We clean their streets, pick up their garbarge, fight their wars. When terrorists strike who they come seek (outside of paid mercenaries) to defend their assets here and abroad? Not their children, nor the children of their class.

To the corporate states the global economy is not there to improve the lives of all but enable them to shift and maximize profit. Their only responsibility and is to their shareholders and they tell me this day in and day out. The acquistion of wealth, market share and power by any means is their only mantra and raison d'etre. Yes I simplified my arguement because when you're looking at it from the bottom up like I lived it is simple.

They want as much of everything as they can steal, grab, coerce and exploit and the consequences to nations or the people in them mean little or nothing to them.

As for how I live my life, I buy my coffee at The Daily Grind, NOT Starbucks. I visit the farmers market in downtown Troy every saturday morning BEFORE I head to the local Pricechopper. I go to the Spectrom Theatre and never to the Mall. I buy local when and where I can cause those people are my friends and neighbors. To hell with Walmart, vivre le revolution.

Da Worfster

han freak solo
10-11-2007, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Stiletto-:
In the next 100 years or less, you will have robots and machines doing all manual labor that doesn't require a mind to create ideas.

It's on its way in some fields. Printing for example. All the digital printing that feeds the machinery I work on has dumbed down the operator. The only real skillset is by the graphic designer who laid out the printing.

Operators in the past, whether printing or bindery, had a skillset that took years of apprenticeship and years more to hone to level of craftsman.

Now operators are only expected to press a few buttons since the machinery sets up all dimensions or specifications.

The machinery is sold this way, too. "Yes Mr. Customer the machinery is expensive and will need replacement in 5 years, BUT your labor costs will be much, much less because there is no need for skilled employees." Many digital print shops only hire "temporary employees" that can be gotten rid of when the time to hire permanently has come. That saves on benefits costs for the employer, too.

Most of my service calls are simple operator issues of thinking out a job layout and making adjustments, either with a keypad or levers. It wasn't like that even 10 years ago. About the only thing the operators are expected to do is send files across a network, load paper, and add toner.

Oh well, it keeps me with plenty of easy work.

han freak solo
10-11-2007, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Worf101:
To hell with Walmart, vivre le revolution.

Da Worfster

Gawd, I hate Walmart.

The sad irony will be when I'm a Walmart greeter because of a lack of retirement benefits.

If y'all ever see me working at Walmart, tell me to walk in front of a speeding bus. Please.

ImpStarDuece
10-11-2007, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
Sorry, ISD, but you are wrong. You are arguing a market is free so long as it exists within certain bounds of regulation.
Ludicrosity.

One of the tests of whether a market is Free or Regulated is whether or not a business is Public or Private property.

In a Free Market a business is as much private property as someone's home and land.

In a Regulated Market a business is held as Public.

Say, I am goin to open a restaurant. Can I say: "In my restaurant I shall allow my customers to smoke."?

No. The state has decreed that since my restaurant is a public facility smoking shall not be allowed.

That is only one example, I could go on and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on...

Free Market test failed. This is a Regulated Market. You are arguing "We are 5% less regulated than Nazi Germany, therefore we are a Free Market!"
You are falling for word games, anyway. When they say "deregulation" they do not mean deregulation in the sense you are thinking. It actually is nothing more than slightly restructuring the regulations. They "deregulated" the cable industry, for example, and nothing changed. It's all still territorial just as it was before. All they did was restructure, not deregulate. Same with the "deregulation" of energy production in California: They deregulated nothing, but they fouled the entire system with the restructuring and the mistake of one Governor (Wilson) led to the next (His Incompetence: Emperor Grey the Greedy) bungling the consequences so badly that he bankrupted the state.
It would have been better had they actually deregulated it.

Next: I have read all the typical, vacuous and inane comments about greed.

Pfft.

As Abraham Lincoln put it: When it comes to that I would rather go to Russia where despotism can be taken pure, without the base alloy of hypocrisy.
(Note, when he was speaking the Czar's still ruled Russia, in a modern times he would have said China or Cuba)

We are the ones that create the environment you are whining about.

You go to the store shopping for widgets. You find them on the shelf and there are two different widgets. Both are of the same quality and function, either will do the job you require. There is, however, one difference:
Widget A: $10.00
Widget B: $6.50
You buy widget B, of course, as why should you pay $10.00 for something just as good that can be had for $6.50?
Why does widget B cost less than widget A?
The evil corporation that produces widget B produces its widgets in Indonesia where they can produced at less cost and even after the costs of shipping the widgets across the Pacific Ocean are included they saved so much on production that their widgets can be sold at $6.50 instead of $10.00.
The corporation producing widget A will do one of two things: follow suite and find a cheaper means of producing widgets or go out of business.
Which do you think they're going to choose?

The actual problem which you will not understand (NOTA BENE: I said will not, not can not, because it is not that you can not understand, it is that you will not) is that it costs too much to manufacture products in the U.S. anymore as a result of the costs of production, taxation and regulation ... factors which you people refuse to heed or even momentarily consider. Instead, as you stand at the counter with widget B you conrgratulate yourself on your savings, then curse those who provided you with the savings.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Shut up, or buy widget A next time.

Its clear that libertarian absolutism and common sense obviously cannot exist in the same space.

You need to improve your reading comprehension. I was outlining the economic underpinnings of the relocation of basic manufacturing out of the developed world, not arguing for or against it. Because you failed to understand what I wrote, I'll reiterate it in the hope it sinks in a second time.

The US is a MARKET LED society, not a FREE MARKET society, under a system of constrained capitalism. These are two completely different things.

A perfectly free market is an unachievable academic ideal. It cannot exist in harmony with any known system of social governance.

The basic Smithian lassiez faire approach works to a LIMITED extent when it is applied to the real world, where human do not act rationally. The central underpinning assumption of Neo-Classical economics is that of 'rational economic man' where people act to maximise the economic benefit from their activities. If that assumption doesn't relate to a real work situation, then how can the free market hope to do the same, if its underlying concepts are flawed?

I'm not a US citizen, and I've lived in the US and also countries which have more central planning and direct government intervention than in the US (Japan, Australia and, very briefly, Sweden) and one that nominally had far less (Hong Kong, again for just a few months). I know which has had more economic sucess, but I also know which type of economy I'd rather live and raise a family in.

StellarRat
10-11-2007, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:

I think that you are chronically oversimplifying an extremely complicated system. At the risk of doing likewise I shall say this:

If I offer you 2 identical products, A and B, and then tell you that product A costs half as much as product B, I can't say whether you'll buy anything, but I can be pretty confident that you won't buy product B.

Everybody wants to get a better product for a cheaper price. Labour markets are no different. If somebody on the other side of the world can do your job just as well and is prepared to accept half the price for doing that work, you'd better either be prepared to take a 51% pay cut or get a new job.

You can't blame companies for doing the same thing that you do yourself whenever you go shopping.

At the end of the day, labour is a product like any other which must be sold on the open market. If you want your product to be bought then it must offer the consumer an attractive ratio of price to quality. If you want to attain a high price then your product must be scarce, since any other people able to offer the same product and finding themselves without buyers will naturally attempt to attract custom by offering a more attractive price...

This has nothing to do with large companies engaging in some kind of global conspiracy to oppress the downtrodden masses; it's just the result of the group behaviour of our species, which includes both the downtrodden masses and the high-flying millionaires...

In fact, most companies would like nothing more than for the poor to become rich, because then they'd have more money to spend... I agree 100% with you VIPER! In a truly globalized economy the amount paid for any job will tend to fall to the average paid for that job WORLDWIDE. This is simple economics. For for the same job, Western wages will fall and eventually the Third World wages will rise until they meet somewhere in the middle. For those of you who are worried about this I have some ideas:

1. Try to build a unique skill set that makes you hard to replace cheaply. There still plenty of careers that either are so rare or done so much better in the West that competition isn't really a factor.

2. Start a business that makes use of the cheap labor (in other words turn a disadvantage into an advantage.)

3. Do something that isn't practical to outsource. Example: You can't outsource the average lawyer easily because they have to live close enough to go to local courthouse all the time. Usually, they have to meet with their clients personally and speak the same language. Also, they have to have a license to practice in State. I'm sure there are exceptions to this example, but I've never met an outsourced lawyer.

4. Invest in the companies that are making the profits from the cheap labor. You might as well get part of the money you lose from outsourcing back.

MLudner
10-12-2007, 08:44 AM
Keep in mind, I am not always addressing you alone, Imperial.

I must say, it pleases me that you are not a citizen of this Republic as we have a bad enough Leftist disease as it is. I understand that there are people for whom freedom is an ill-suited proposition and slavery or subjugation is preferable: for with freedom comes responsibility and responsibility is hard ... you must think and accept responsibility. It requires maturity. Being a subject or slave is much easier. However, you - like those others - just don't want those terms used; you wish to be slaves or subjects but not be called slaves or subjects, you prefer other, more pleasant euphemisms instead that allow you to think you are not what you are.

You stand before a pile of refuse and declare that it is not a pile of refuse, but a bed of roses and posies.

Same with "Constrained Capitalism": All that is is a gentle euphemism for a Regulated Market such as the Fascists believe in.

Same old pile of refuse just by another name.
I can still smell it; you need better perfume.

Actually, Leftist Ideology - all of them - and Common Sense cannot exist in the same place.

Your claim that Free Markets have never and cannot exist are false. Learn history and heed the following advice, which is one of my guiding principles:

"And this above all; to thine own self be true, and it must follow - as the night the day - thou canst not then be false to any man."

This Republic north of Maryland was a Free Market when it was founded. It has been corrupted through time, but it is not now as it was born.

Ernst_Rohr
10-12-2007, 09:03 AM
Just my 2 cents on the whole issue.

I have been on the receiving end of the whole layoff thing before. I have been through three mergers and a layoff, and all of them sucked.

My last layoff was 6 years ago, at the time I was making a VERY good salary as a mid level network monitoring manager for a big software company. Unfortunately, I managed a department of 4, but I couldn't hire anyone, so I got to do the job of 5 instead, and work 60 to 80 hour weeks. I did such a good job, I got a company commendation (whoopee) and had a reputation as a go to guy.

My reward was to get laid off by my director for not being politically reliable (i.e. I wasn't a big enough kiss a$$). That was two weeks before 9/11. After 9/11 there weren't ANY positions in my area that didn't draw 200+ applications, regardless of pay, since there were over 250,00 laid off IT guys in the area. So, as a middle aged highly paid very successful IT guy, I couldn't get a job at gunpoint. 14 months later after struggling with some independent consulting (which paid beans), and after wiping out my savings and retirement, I took a job at half of what I was making.

The ironic thing was that I was cut as a "cost savings" measure. Unfortunately for them, the guy that they brought in to replace me couldn't follow the majority of what I did, but he was cheaper (read younger). Then they had to bring TWO guys over from web services and hand over the stuff I had been doing for their group to those two guys. Finally, they had to hire a consultant to do the network management and monitoring software, and she ran them $150,000

End result? Laying me off cost them over $300,000. The poetic justice was that my slimy former director got his butt fired for mismanagement as a result. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Not to mention the fact that they were in such a hurry to get rid of me, they forgot to ask for my passwords to my account an to the servers I ran. Big mistake on their part, especially when I told them my billing rate was $250 and hour after they realized their mistake. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

My take on the whole employment thing is that you have to approach your job the same way the companies do. Its a business deal, and you have to be completely mercenary about it.

There is NO SUCH THING as loyalty anymore. Thanks to the obsession with quarterly earnings reports, the ONLY thing that is important to a publicly traded company is the bottom line. Period. People don't matter, your "human resources" now. Your job and position don't matter, if they can outsource the position and save a couple of dollars, the management will do it in a heartbeat. Remember, they PAY you based on a negotiated rate for a 40 hour work week. If they want more time, they pay for it, or pay it back in comp time.

IT in the US is have a labor shortage again, because the short sighted management morons wiped out all the expensive mid level guys, and there are no young kids graduating with IT degrees any more, since they all abandoned the field courtesy of the tech bubble collapse. So, now, there is a huge gulf, all the baby boomers are starting to retire, and there is nobody to replace them. That makes for a sellers market, which means you can do to the company what they did to you, which is jamming to to them for the money.

Take the money and run. Dont count on ANY retirement where your at, setup and pay for retirement on your own dollar, you are the only one you can rely on. Period. If the job looks like its going south, jump ship. DONT EVER train your replacement, knowledge is power. If it looks like they are setting you up for a fall, jump ship and let them suck wind.


BTW, public sector isnt any better folks. My current job has been public sector for the last 5 years, and the amount of stupid BS, politics, government regulation and sheer incompetence is amazing. Not to mention that the pay and benefits suck. The only great advantage is that you basically cant get fired and the retirement is pretty good.

In short there is BS wherever you go.


Now, as far as foreign workers, let me enlighten you to how that deal actual goes down. Those guys are getting screwed over just like you are, and here is why.

Foreign workers that come in on a H-1b visa are stuck. Until they have a green card, they cant leave the company or they have to go back home. If they want to change jobs, the new employer has to agree to sponsor them and do the paperwork to change the H-1 status. So, in most cases, they are stuck where they are at FOR YEARS.

On top of that, because they are "cheaper" to hire, they get paid significantly less than a comparable US worker, and have to put up with garbage that a US worker wouldn't put up with. In the tech sector, consulting companies are notorious for sweatshop like employment practices. I have know several guys in that line that were traveling 100% of the time in high tech consulting and only pulling down half of what a comparable US consultant was.

In short, the H-1b folks don't get it any better than the rest of us do.

MLudner
10-12-2007, 09:07 AM
DEINDE (continued):

You are falling for a fallacy that thousands of years of human experience have revealed as a fallacy ... and you are falling for it.

Einstein stated that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

You are insane. In fact, you are stark, raving foaming at the mouth, chewing on the carpet, howling at the moon, drooling, wanna-be Napoleon, delusionally mad. Lunatics, all.

Every time man has regulated life trying to fix life he has only made life worse.

Free Markets will NOT produce equity, nor absolute justice, nor fairness, nor yadda-yadda. They will produce freedom, though.

Socialism in all its incarnations claims it will. Funny, then, that it never does. Of course, it's a mere delusion of justice at best, a base lie at worst.

How many of you actually think this is a new idea? Do you think no one has ever thought of it before? Never tried it before?

Ever read the Mayflower Compact? Ever studied the economic history of ancient Rome?

I have. That is how I know none of the Leftist ideals are in any way original or progressive, but are - in all fact - regressive. Man has been dreaming of establishing a utopia for the longest time and he has spent much time, spilled rivers of sweat and shed veritable oceans of blood to attain it.

And never has even once, despite his best and tragic efforts.
Then, in each age this whole fallacy is reborn and sold as new.
Then more time, rivers of sweat and oceans of blood flow and only misery results.
Repeat, AD INFINITVM AD NAVSEAM.
Insanity, to use Einstein's most gentle euphemism.
That is human history: The quest for that which they cannot attain due to their own frailty.

Answer me this, those with the courage to try: How did Rome fall? Why? By what means did that impervious power fold like a house of cards in a whispering wind? What was the dagger they saw before them?

smokincrater
10-12-2007, 03:10 PM
If I can boil the whole thing into a couple of sentences(which is hard). A: Everybody is against globlzation and B: Everybody is upset at there govenments for not protecting there jobs.

Solution = work in service and repair no one can outsource your home or car to China!!!!

ploughman
10-12-2007, 03:14 PM
I'm for centrally heated porcelain, I think you missed that.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
10-12-2007, 03:22 PM
But think of the people in the chamber pot manufacturing sector your selfish quest for warm buttocks has cast onto the scrapheap before their time.

smokincrater
10-12-2007, 03:25 PM
I missed that on purpose so I didn`t have to read the above comment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

carguy_
10-12-2007, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by CVK_Monkey:
You guys never experienced a situation that a food shop shelves is empty... that you can't buy toothpaste or bananas and if it was possible some clerk inside the shop said to you that you can buy only 4 bananas, because there is plenty of others in the line behind you...


Ok......now the shelves are full and a normal citizen can`t buy #### anyway.
Post-socialistic salary, EU prizes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif



You never lived in world where succes was punished, where people watched each other and call secret state police if you bought car made outside socialistic block...

Yeah well the fact is that commies pretty much changed the whole nations in those years.The mentality described is very up to date even nowadays.You`re wealthy = you must be a criminal.
People think everyone must have the same stuff and salary whatever you do.



You can't even imagine that soldier were ordered to shoot you if you decided to leave the country and cross the borders...

True but you`re presenting a rather catastrophical vision here.The truth is that a big part of the people is socialistic countries liked it.Even nowadays some of the older people miss those days.Not everything was bad.You must accept the truth or you`re not being objective at all.

I, even if I have liberal views, can sincerely say that I grew up in socialism and hard days of trsnsitioning to capitalism.It was a wonderful childhood.



You can't imagine you could be in prison for years if you would complain publicly or even privately about state system and its errors... You could say that Breznev is a murderer and you ended in jail...

It was not so bad,at least after the year 1970.Sure the intel had their arms on everything but it`s not like ppl were disappearing for this kind of "crime".



You have everything now, you are lazy, bored westerners who just want to live same easy life like your fathers... But times changed... Now all around the world wants the life of your fathers... they work hard and cheaper than you... they want to win... you don't because you think that your fathers already won... but race continue... work hard, educate and you don't need to be worry about your job...

A rather unwise generalisation of westerners.It`s actually not so easy to live comfortably in a rich capitalism country.Yeah, SwedenDenmark maybe Germany are easy but this is your perspective.When an easterner works his guts out in his country to buy food and goes to full blown capitalistic country is astounded how easy it is to make money.But it`s is never like you earn your money and good life for nothing.




born in 1974 in communist country Czechoslovakia... I saw terrible things, but still not so terrible like in Russia, China or Kambodia...

Yeah, just wait you`ll see how someone from those countries comes here and writes that YOU haven`t got any idea and be grateful.
Because for you it was no so bad, hell it wasn`t bad at all compared to citizens of the above countries.




Be grateful, you have so BIG and many opportunities to do with your life and nobody dictate to you that this is forbidden...

Read some more, maybe you will get to know that it is not sooooooooooooooo great in those western countries.By the look of your post I get the feeling that if you get to work abroad you will be a milionaire in a year, right?

The life is just the way it is.We can all be wondering why the Holy God didn`t put us in the US or France and we can be sad and fruitless.I rather learn something and put it to a good use.

Even in socialism people are masters of their own fate.

Lemky
10-12-2007, 09:22 PM
Hi Iam from Canada,and getting real old.I would not worry about out outsourceing of jobs to much.I am starting to worry about where my food supply is being outsourced from.Think about it.
As Mom said if you have a roof over your head and food in your belly,you are doing real good compaired to some places in this world.
Work my #%^ off,Do not have much,but I am doing alot better than some people in this world.