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GH_Klingstroem
08-06-2005, 06:06 PM
Ive heard 55000feet between a ju88 high alt recon version and a high alt modified spitfire.

Now, have you guys got any other stories to tell? try to keep it to WW2 as later doesnt intrest me much...

cheers!

Atomic_Marten
08-06-2005, 06:09 PM
I believe that was a valid thing you heard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I saw a post about it some time ago, if I am not mistaken in ORR.
And detail description of the combat too.

Zyzbot
08-06-2005, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Ive heard 55000feet between a ju88 high alt recon version and a high alt modified spitfire.

Now, have you guys got any other stories to tell? try to keep it to WW2 as later doesnt intrest me much...

cheers!

According to the book LATE MARQUE SPITFIRE ACES 1942-45 the "highest recorded air combat of WWII " occurred on 12 september 1942 between a JU-86R and a modified Spitfire Mk-IX flown by Flg Off Emanuel Galitzine. The height listed was 43,500 feet. The JU-86R was damaged but did not crash.

VW-IceFire
08-06-2005, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Zyzbot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Ive heard 55000feet between a ju88 high alt recon version and a high alt modified spitfire.

Now, have you guys got any other stories to tell? try to keep it to WW2 as later doesnt intrest me much...

cheers!

According to the book LATE MARQUE SPITFIRE ACES 1942-45 the "highest recorded air combat of WWII " occurred on 12 september 1942 between a JU-86R and a modified Spitfire Mk-IX flown by Flg Off Emanuel Galitzine. The height listed was 43,500 feet. The JU-86R was damaged but did not crash. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Was it a Mark IX or a Mark VII with extended wingtips? Seems awfully high for even the modified high altitude IX's (which were even rarer than other high altitude variants).

gkll
08-06-2005, 11:49 PM
I thought I recall it was in Egypt? Aboukir or somewhere... one of 3 stripped down spits, removed armor guns etc, little rat-shack group of mechanics pilots and armourers trying to get the recon ju86's......

gkll
08-07-2005, 12:08 AM
".... Actually, the only high-altitude Mk Vs were three unofficially modified in service by No 103 Maintenance Unit at Aboukir in Egypt where many practical aircraft modifications were carried out to suit desert conditions. The three Mk VC specials were given elongated wings, two 0.5 inch guns instead of the usual 4 guns and two cannon, four-blade airscrews and modified carburettors. The purpose all this work was to get the spitfires up over 40,000 feet to deal with Ju 86P aircraft which had previously been immune from interception. When a Merlin 61 engine of 1,565 hp became available, one of the Vcs was fitted with the more powerful engine and two cannon to go Junkers-hunting in the rarefied heights above Egypt"

Read about this elsewhere from the human side, can't remember the source. Can't find the older post describing the combat through the search, anyone have?

Kocur_
08-07-2005, 03:37 AM
Let me add a little curiosity: Emanuel Galitzine was son of Russian prince family Golitsin, which escaped from Russia in 1917.

Ok those encouters: high alt recon planes vs. specialized high alf fighters are interesting, but what about top alt of fighter vs. fighter encounters. That would be probably around 8thAF bombers, but what was highest alt of those fights?

hotspace
08-07-2005, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zyzbot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Ive heard 55000feet between a ju88 high alt recon version and a high alt modified spitfire.

Now, have you guys got any other stories to tell? try to keep it to WW2 as later doesnt intrest me much...

cheers!

According to the book LATE MARQUE SPITFIRE ACES 1942-45 the "highest recorded air combat of WWII " occurred on 12 september 1942 between a JU-86R and a modified Spitfire Mk-IX flown by Flg Off Emanuel Galitzine. The height listed was 43,500 feet. The JU-86R was damaged but did not crash. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Was it a Mark IX or a Mark VII with extended wingtips? Seems awfully high for even the modified high altitude IX's (which were even rarer than other high altitude variants). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A IXc if I remember.

Hot Space

Zyzbot
08-07-2005, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zyzbot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Ive heard 55000feet between a ju88 high alt recon version and a high alt modified spitfire.

Now, have you guys got any other stories to tell? try to keep it to WW2 as later doesnt intrest me much...

cheers!

According to the book LATE MARQUE SPITFIRE ACES 1942-45 the "highest recorded air combat of WWII " occurred on 12 september 1942 between a JU-86R and a modified Spitfire Mk-IX flown by Flg Off Emanuel Galitzine. The height listed was 43,500 feet. The JU-86R was damaged but did not crash. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Was it a Mark IX or a Mark VII with extended wingtips? Seems awfully high for even the modified high altitude IX's (which were even rarer than other high altitude variants). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to the book the Mk VII was not ready for operations. As an interim measure two Mk IX's were modified by removing the four .303 machine guns,all armor, and some other equipment.

Zyzbot
08-07-2005, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by gkll:
".... Actually, the only high-altitude Mk Vs were three unofficially modified in service by No 103 Maintenance Unit at Aboukir in Egypt where many practical aircraft modifications were carried out to suit desert conditions. The three Mk VC specials were given elongated wings, two 0.5 inch guns instead of the usual 4 guns and two cannon, four-blade airscrews and modified carburettors. The purpose all this work was to get the spitfires up over 40,000 feet to deal with Ju 86P aircraft which had previously been immune from interception. When a Merlin 61 engine of 1,565 hp became available, one of the Vcs was fitted with the more powerful engine and two cannon to go Junkers-hunting in the rarefied heights above Egypt"

Read about this elsewhere from the human side, can't remember the source. Can't find the older post describing the combat through the search, anyone have?

" Some Ju 86Ps were operated in the Mediterranean theater, and flew unmolested numerous times over Egypt. However, the Ju 86P eventually met its match in the form of a specially-stripped version of the Spitfire V evolved by the British to meet the high-altitude threat. The first successful interception of a Ju 86P was on August 24, 1942, when a Spitfire V caught one of these aircraft over Egypt at an altitude of 42,000 feet and forced it to crash into the Mediterranean. In response to this new threat, Luftwaffe personnel hastily fitted a remotely-controlled MG 17 machine gun fixed to fire aft from the rear fuselage. However, a couple more Ju 86P-2s were soon lost to these modified Spitfires. Since the operation of the Ju 86P over enemy territory was becoming increasingly hazardous to the health of its aircrews, the type was shortly thereafter withdrawn from operational service.

In an attempt to improve the chances of the reconnaissance Ju 86 surviving over enemy territory, the Ju 86R series was evolved. An even higher-aspect ratio wing was fitted, having a span of 104 ft 11 3/4 in. A pair of Jumo 207B-3 engines were fitted, each offering 1000 hp for takeoff. The engines were provided with GM-1 boost (nitrous oxide injected into the supercharger) for use above the rated altitude of the engine. Two versions were proposed, the Ju 86R-1 high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft and the Ju 86R-2 high- altitude bomber. A few existing Ju 86Ps were converted to Ju 86R configuration, and tests showed that an altitude of 47,250 feet could be reached and maintained. A few operational missions were flown by the Ju 86R, but the type was eventually taken out of service by July 1944. "

x__CRASH__x
08-07-2005, 09:00 AM
No one has asked the obvious question.. so I will.

How the he|| did a Ju-88 dog fight a spitfire??

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

briyeo
08-07-2005, 09:17 AM
On the 21st February 1944 Pierre Clostermann and Ian Blair of 602 sqn. Spitfire VII's where scrambled to intercept a bogey at angels Z (40.000). they where in the vacinity of Scapa Flow.Clostermann describes the enemy aircraft as a Bf 109G grey on top and pale blue undersurfaces with two external fuel tanks under the wings, no national markings where seen. Although the intercept took place at 40.000 plus, the battle became a high speed dive. At 10,000 ft Ian Blair, who was now leading the chase, opened fire with his two 20mm canon with a perfect shot that tore the 109 to shreads. The Spits had reached a speed approaching 600mph in the dive, Blair's aircraft was hit by debris and he made a belly landing. From "The Big Show" by Clostermann

Zyzbot
08-07-2005, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
No one has asked the obvious question.. so I will.

How the he|| did a Ju-88 dog fight a spitfire??

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Can't speak for the Ju-88 but in the Ju-86R interception...the Ju-86R was actually able to out turn the Spitfire at the extreme altitude and make its escape.

From the pilot's report:

"Again I dived to attack but when I was about 100 yards away the bomber went into a surprisingly tight turn to starboard. I opened fire but the Spitfire went into a yaw and fell out of the sky. I broke off the attack, turned outside him and climbed back to 44,000 feet."

The report goes on to say that the Ju-86 evaded 2 more attacks by "clever maneuvering" and got away when it entered into a mist.

Daiichidoku
08-07-2005, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by gkll:
".... Actually, the only high-altitude Mk Vs were three unofficially modified in service by No 103 Maintenance Unit at Aboukir in Egypt where many practical aircraft modifications were carried out to suit desert conditions. The three Mk VC specials were given elongated wings, two 0.5 inch guns instead of the usual 4 guns and two cannon, four-blade airscrews and modified carburettors. The purpose all this work was to get the spitfires up over 40,000 feet to deal with Ju 86P aircraft which had previously been immune from interception. When a Merlin 61 engine of 1,565 hp became available, one of the Vcs was fitted with the more powerful engine and two cannon to go Junkers-hunting in the rarefied heights above Egypt"

Read about this elsewhere from the human side, can't remember the source. Can't find the older post describing the combat through the search, anyone have?

this is basically what was done to make the VI spit....which was intended to be a standard mark, (the V was a stop-gap to the VI)...but by the time the VI was rolling, its hi alt perf had already been judged insuffecient...only about 100 VIs were made...Farnborough had experimented with a few , though, installing a LOX (liquid oxygen) system in it...it was found that at hi alt, ceiling was raised over 2000 ft, and top speed at alt incresed 40-50mph! imagine if the IXs had LOX, or god forbid, the XIV!

Daiichidoku
08-07-2005, 10:26 AM
from "the spitfire story", alfred price, 1982, Janes

toward the end of 42 LW started attacks over england with Ju86Rs..fortunatly, only 2 were available...inital attacks were attempted to be intercepted by spit VIs of 124 sqd, but could not catch them
the answer was the IX spit, with hi alt perf better than the VI, although no fitted with a pressure cockpit...Special Service Flight was formed at Northholt, with a "couple" of machines...they were stripped of all armour, and machine guns, leaving 2 hispanos, and lighter weight propellors with slightly lower reductiuon ratios, to assist climb and hi alt perf, and given a lightweight blue finish, similar to PR "duck-egg" blue spits....these ships were 450lbs lighter than a normal IX

on 12 sept 1942, Prince Emanuel Galitzine intercepted a 86R over Southghampton, and chased it to over 43,000ft...after his intial attack, his port hispano jammed...every subsequent attack made him yaw starboard and stall, making his task impossible....the 86R got away with a single hit on its port wing

as a result of this, 86Rs were not considered immune to interception, and no further 86Rs ever attacked over england

a full account of this story, along with the account given by both Galitzine, and the German 86R pilot, can be found in "spitfire: a documentary", also by alfred price, pub by Janes

this was the highest known air action of WWII

Daiichidoku
08-07-2005, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Zyzbot:
Can't speak for the Ju-88 but in the Ju-86R interception...the Ju-86R was actually able to out turn the Spitfire at the extreme altitude and make its escape.

big wing, hi alt, great turns...B 29s were known to outturn JP single seaters at alt, with that HUGE wing

B 36 peacenmakers would evade fighters in turns with EASE




"Again I dived to attack but when I was about 100 yards away the bomber went into a surprisingly tight turn to starboard. I opened fire but the Spitfire went into a yaw and fell out of the sky.

funny how he didnt say WHY he fell out of the sky....his port cannon was jammed

LEXX_Luthor
08-09-2005, 12:41 PM
Zybot::
The report goes on to say that the Ju-86 evaded 2 more attacks by "clever maneuvering" and got away when it entered into a mist.
Most interesting. What Myst was found at 40,000 feet?

Cirrus clouds? I have not flown nearly that high, and I am thinking they would appear as a sudden mist, and I am thinking they are not as visible against the ground from above compared to looking up in the sky at them (against sea I don't know). From same level, they may or may not be that visible. Any airline pilots here may know. I do know that for some reason, Oleg chose to model the high altitude FB 7km thin clouds as invisible from same level and above, although between 6.8 and 7.8 kilometers you see the 7km FB Mist passing by the cockpit. Sad, it looks ugly and the modeled clouds should be thinner than a whole kilometer represented by the 7km FB Myst.