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XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 05:34 PM
Hi Oleg, hi all.

The problem i want to talk about was mentioned here a couple of times before but imho NEVER got enough attention: visibility.

It was working nicely in good old IL2 but in FB it seems to get worse and worse with each patch. As i fly online wars most of the time with my squadmates, we fly on full real settings all the time. and i like full real believe me. In my opinion (and i think it happens not only when I play /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) there is something wrong with the levels of visibility. When a plane is close you can see it clearly, when it's more than 3k away you can see a little dot BUT when the plane is somewhere between 1.5 and 3k away it disappears!!! this doesn't happen with all planes but in RC01 for example it happens with I16s, FW190 and some other fighters. It's not only my problem, as i said i was flying with my squad yesterday and we all more or less had this problem (so ppl with low comp systems as well as ppl with really good systems and perfect settings). I never had this in old IL2 but since FB came out it is like that and RC01 made it even worse as the dots are smaller or maybe the collour of the dots has been changed a bit. I mean In real life you can see a plane even if it's really really far away but in FB you can't even set up nice attacks sometimes cause you see an enemy 3k away. you prepare for the attack. dive. and he dissapears, then all of a sudden you see him again somewhere on your left or right as soon as you get close enough.

Could you please comment on that Oleg?

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 05:34 PM
Hi Oleg, hi all.

The problem i want to talk about was mentioned here a couple of times before but imho NEVER got enough attention: visibility.

It was working nicely in good old IL2 but in FB it seems to get worse and worse with each patch. As i fly online wars most of the time with my squadmates, we fly on full real settings all the time. and i like full real believe me. In my opinion (and i think it happens not only when I play /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) there is something wrong with the levels of visibility. When a plane is close you can see it clearly, when it's more than 3k away you can see a little dot BUT when the plane is somewhere between 1.5 and 3k away it disappears!!! this doesn't happen with all planes but in RC01 for example it happens with I16s, FW190 and some other fighters. It's not only my problem, as i said i was flying with my squad yesterday and we all more or less had this problem (so ppl with low comp systems as well as ppl with really good systems and perfect settings). I never had this in old IL2 but since FB came out it is like that and RC01 made it even worse as the dots are smaller or maybe the collour of the dots has been changed a bit. I mean In real life you can see a plane even if it's really really far away but in FB you can't even set up nice attacks sometimes cause you see an enemy 3k away. you prepare for the attack. dive. and he dissapears, then all of a sudden you see him again somewhere on your left or right as soon as you get close enough.

Could you please comment on that Oleg?

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 06:04 PM
bump

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 07:31 PM
bump

GH_Trautloft
http://www.greenhearts.org/images/eagle2.gif

http://www.greenhearts.org

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 07:41 PM
This is why there are icons in the game. There is nothing unrealistic about icons given the limitations of computer software/hardware.

What you are asking is to make the planes some how more visible graphically (paint them orange maybe?), while maintaining realism. Still screenshots from this game look very realistic to me, probably as far as the FB engine is capable of going. If you start trying to make the graphics not only realistic, but also boost their visibility to counter the limitations of the simulation environment, you are liable to come up with something even less realistic.

Seriously, stop the snobbery and use icons for the reason they were included in the game: to make visibility MORE realistic. Icons don't allow you to do anything that a WWII pilot would not be able to, and if you don't like how they look, you can always toggle them of.

Problem solved as best as it can be in the simulated world of ours.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 07:48 PM
bump
its a lod problem i think, reduced poly model etc


whineingu /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 07:59 PM
A.K.Davis wrote:
- This is why there are icons in the game. There is
- nothing unrealistic about icons given the
- limitations of computer software/hardware.
-
- What you are asking is to make the planes some how
- more visible graphically (paint them orange maybe?),
- while maintaining realism. Still screenshots from
- this game look very realistic to me, probably as far
- as the FB engine is capable of going. If you start
- trying to make the graphics not only realistic, but
- also boost their visibility to counter the
- limitations of the simulation environment, you are
- liable to come up with something even less
- realistic.
-
- Seriously, stop the snobbery and use icons for the
- reason they were included in the game: to make
- visibility MORE realistic. Icons don't allow you to
- do anything that a WWII pilot would not be able to,
- and if you don't like how they look, you can always
- toggle them of.
-
- Problem solved as best as it can be in the simulated
- world of ours.
-
---AKD


Yeah right. Funny how so many other sims have better solutions and more flexible view systems! Try EAW sometime to see how planes look at mid distance. You can lose them against the background and yet once you find em they don't disappear on you as you get CLOSER and keep an eye on them. Somehow my hardware gets worse when I run a newer sim, and it's only this one? Yes, because MA is even better in the view system than EAW. As it is and has been, the view system is the biggest weakspot in IL2 & FB that I've seen --- or not!


Neal

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 08:11 PM
For distant planes, depending on aircraft size, they could make them multiple pixel dots, like the did in Flanker 1.0. This will let you see them more easily while they are still too small to make out any shape anyway. No need for icons in the DOS Flanker. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

btw, the higher the resolution the more pixel dots for a given distant aircraft size and range. Even the single pixel dots in Flanker 1.0 were easy to see because it used 640x480 resolution.

There is also an issue about when you zoom in on a distant aircraft made of one pixel, the pixel dot remains the same. Higher zoom should make the pixel more pixels, at least in general. Its so weird now that its easier to spot a ~very~ distant aircraft in full out zoom view.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 08:12 PM
Don't get this like patronizing, but computer monitors ar far more limited than the human eye. Pixel is of dimensions much larger than size of distant objects which human eye can see, so game developers have a problem which is usually solved by good or bad compromise.
For instance, at decent weather you can see approx 1 meter-or-so wide object (of considerable length offcourse) at 20km! Percieved size is very very small. To represent this in a game, developer must make it one pixel wide, which, translated to real life dimensions, could make that object 10 meters wide. OK, enough with this.

Could be something else. You said you dived on them. At what altitude were they when you leveled? What they did in those moments? Maybe their camouflage covered them. I have big difficulties spotting an enemy diving from me. I always try to have them contrasted with sky.
In custom missions or QMB, which I play most these days, approaching enemy is always visible. The only moment they start to change shape or when they start to be less visible is the moment they start to maneuvre preparing for attack, and in few seconds there can happen that, during these manuvres, underwing surfaces are lit by sunshine. In this particular instance shadow disappears and their underwing camouflage becomes efficient.

One more thing, my monitor is a heap of junk. But, virtue of this old monitor is the fact it lacks pre-super-adjusted colors and contrasts. Newer TV sets and monitors are very (unrealisticly) colorful. Contrasts are always overdone. I tested looks of this game on some new monitors and just gave up. Although colors seem just a little pale,
for my personal taste my junk monitor is No1. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:11 PM
"For instance, at decent weather you can see approx 1 meter-or-so wide object (of considerable length offcourse) at 20km! "

on ground maybe,but in air,never ! (i have approx 2500 hrs in flight ,maybe i'm not trained enough /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:17 PM
Yep! On ground.

Unfortunately, time I've spent in the air is considerably shorter.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 11:00 PM
It's been too long since I played EAW, but I know for a fact that when I did play it, it was at lower resolution and with fewer colors than in FB. Of course, this just makes 3D objects easier to see. Seems there's an inverse relationship between visibility and graphic realism. Now, I suppose the medium distance LOD's in FB could be made 5 times their normal size and solid black. This would make the ability to spot planes at that distance more realistic, but would make the game graphically less realistic. You end up with the same trade-off as icons, it looks LESS real, but plays MORE real. Personally I prefer the icons to some sort of inflated, simplified, flourescent, etc. LODs, as I can toggle them on and off as needed.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg


Message Edited on 11/11/0310:07PM by A.K.Davis

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 01:25 AM
well in air,i can spot a 747 sized acft at approx 10km (backed up by instruments),at same altitude.

when trying to spot light aircraft flying lower,i eventually could find one at approx 5 km and 5000ft below,still backed up with instruments (TCAS).

i think a better trained military pilot could go up to 10km,but no more,mainly due to ambient light.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 01:43 AM
found out something interesting:

Visibility is as it always was I think but :

When the host uses a script and instead of turning icons off he just limits them to really close range like 5 meters or so than you have this effect!!! so it's because some hosts don't turn icons off but turn them on and then limit them to short distance. that makes the dots smaller at certain distances.

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 03:07 AM
Gershy wrote:
- found out something interesting:
-
- Visibility is as it always was I think but :
-
- When the host uses a script and instead of turning
- icons off he just limits them to really close range
- like 5 meters or so than you have this effect!!! so
- it's because some hosts don't turn icons off but
- turn them on and then limit them to short distance.
- that makes the dots smaller at certain distances.
-
- 2 things we need in FB:
- The 110 and the desert!!!
<img
- src="http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423
- -Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg">
-
-


No, the value for "DOT" in the mp_dotrange console command determines this, not the value for icon range. For example, this command line:

mp_dotrange FOE COLOR 0.01 DOT 14.0 RANGE 5.0 TYPE 0.01 ID 0.01 NAME 0.01

sets the dot distance at 14km and the range icon at 5km. Some people inexplicably set the DOT distance to less than 10km. This makes the dots much harder to see.


--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 03:18 AM
Gershy`s original point is good.

It`s not so much about the PC`s ability to render realistically at a distance, but the fact that at FURTHEST distance you can see the dots, in close distance they are also visible but in MID DISTANCE they dissapear!

Also, I also fly with no icons. It is FAR more immersive online or off and I REFUSE to use icons unless on server where everyone else has it on (though I used to use them in my EAW days).

Basically, you shouldn`t have a `blind spot` in any sim at a mid distance.

It`s a problem that needs addressing...




"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).



Message Edited on 11/12/0302:21AM by SeaFireLIV