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Wespe1943
09-17-2009, 06:30 AM
Hey all,

I was trying my aerial gunnery against some very aerobatic opponents. My problem...flat spins. I know my airspeed was too low with the maneuvers I was trying, and the best way to avoid flat spins, is to not get into one. But, the question...how do you get out of the spin once you're in it?

The_Stealth_Owl
09-17-2009, 06:34 AM
pusgh the stick down and right at the same time.

To avoid a flat spin, don't pul on the stick to hard.

Good Luck! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Owl

Wespe1943
09-17-2009, 06:49 AM
Ah. So, down and left was a bad idea... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif
lol

Tully__
09-17-2009, 06:51 AM
Owl, you have a lot to learn.

To get out of a spin varies a little from aircraft to aircraft, however the general principle is:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>Let go of all your controls
<LI>If you're still spinning, turn your rudder opposite the spin and hold it there
<LI>If you're still spinning, push your stick all the way forward and hold it there
<LI>If you're still spinning, cut throttle
<LI>If you're still spinning, lower flaps and landing gear
<LI>If you're still spinning, try letting go of the stick and pushing forward repeatedly
<LI>If you're still spinning, you're in a P-39 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif [/list]

Once you recover, allow the aircraft to recover and gather some speed before manouvering again or you'll have to start over. If you're in a P-39 and have less than 3000m or so to recover in, hope you can bail out. They can occasionally be recovered but they're pretty stubborn.

Edit: added smileys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PanzerAce
09-17-2009, 06:54 AM
Wierdly, the -39 seems to be the aircraft that I recover the fastest in. Probably cause I just skip straight to flaps down gear down no power...

Tully__
09-17-2009, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by PanzerAce:
Wierdly, the -39 seems to be the aircraft that I recover the fastest in. Probably cause I just skip straight to flaps down gear down no power...
I was sort of joking about the P-39... I've added smileys now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AndyJWest
09-17-2009, 07:55 AM
To get out of a spin varies a little from aircraft to aircraft, however the general principle is:
Let go of all your controls
If you're still spinning, turn your rudder opposite the spin and hold it there
If you're still spinning, push your stick all the way forward and hold it there
If you're still spinning, cut throttle
If you're still spinning, lower flaps and landing gear
If you're still spinning, try letting go of the stick and pushing forward repeatedly
If you're still spinning, you're in a P-39
I'd agree with you Tully, except that I'd say 'cut throttle' right after 'turn your rudder...', as depending which way you are spinning, torque effects can be a major factor in making the spin worse, so the sooner you eliminate them the better.

With the P-39, the only safe thing I know works is to avoid getting to the 'flat spin' stage. If you do start to spin in one push the stick forward immediately then apply opposite rudder etc. I'd like to see a .ntrk of a P-39 actually recovering from a true flat spin, as opposed to the earlier pitch-oscillating phase.

FlatSpinMan
09-17-2009, 07:58 AM
What's with all this anti-flatspin vibe? You guys are bringing me down.

Wespe1943
09-17-2009, 08:16 AM
Thanks for the advice guys. My method sure wasn't working.

ILikePortillos
09-17-2009, 11:31 AM
Yeah, I'd just like to accent the importance of altitute. Having fallen victim to the flat spin, the first thing I would do if I found myself in one, is check my altitude. If I'm under a thousand meters, I don't think I'd bother. I'd bail out ASAP. Nothing like pulling out of a flat spin to realise you're in a straight but vertical dive towards the ground at 500 feet.

K_Freddie
09-17-2009, 12:20 PM
If you're in a real flat spin, it sometimes helps to cnetralise all controls, and use your throttle (engine torque) to get one wing to dip lower than the other.

What you must aim for is to get the wing on the 'inside' of the spin to dip, then when this happens kick the rudder to increase the spin speed. This has the effect of causing the outer wing to lift and inside wing to dip more, eventually causing a 'wing-over' type move and you'll be facing nose down in a flash.

It happens fast so be ready to apply opposite rudder to avoid overshoot, and into another spin.

Completely opposite to what everyone would think, but it works for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

general_kalle
09-17-2009, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by FlatSpinMan:
What's with all this anti-flatspin vibe? You guys are bringing me down.

dont worry man! im on your side...theyre just being rude to you.

TinyTim
09-17-2009, 01:52 PM
One of the hardest planes to pull out of flat spin (besides P-39) is, IMO, a 6xFAB100 laden Su-2.

The_Stealth_Owl
09-17-2009, 02:24 PM
Owl, you have a lot to learn.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

horseback
09-17-2009, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by FlatSpinMan:
What's with all this anti-flatspin vibe? You guys are bringing me down. As long as they don't start beating dead horses...

cheers

horseback

na85
09-17-2009, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
If you're in a real flat spin, it sometimes helps to cnetralise all controls, and use your throttle (engine torque) to get one wing to dip lower than the other.

What you must aim for is to get the wing on the 'inside' of the spin to dip, then when this happens kick the rudder to increase the spin speed. This has the effect of causing the outer wing to lift and inside wing to dip more, eventually causing a 'wing-over' type move and you'll be facing nose down in a flash.

It happens fast so be ready to apply opposite rudder to avoid overshoot, and into another spin.

Completely opposite to what everyone would think, but it works for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wouldn't the effectiveness of this maneuver depend entirely on which way you're spinning?

Bearcat99
09-17-2009, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Wespe1943:
Hey all,
how do you get out of the spin once you're in it?

Chop the throttle
Drop the nose
OPposite rudder

all within the first few seconds.. If you are still in the spin drop flaps while keeping all the above factors in play.. if you are still in a spin drop gear... if you are still in a spin and you are below 3000 ft bailout..

K_Freddie
09-18-2009, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by na85:
Wouldn't the effectiveness of this maneuver depend entirely on which way you're spinning?
Yes, it determines how you handle the throttle.
One direction you chop the throttle, and in the other direction you slam the throttle against the wall.

In either case, as you 'wing over' one cuts the throttle until the a/c is stable.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bremspropeller
09-18-2009, 02:45 PM
Freddie, could you run a quick test on that?

I'd say in a clockwise-rotating-prop fighter (109 and 190 for example), throttling up in a right-hand spin would decelerate it, while chopping the throttles in a left-hand spin would decelerate it.

na85
09-18-2009, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
Wouldn't the effectiveness of this maneuver depend entirely on which way you're spinning?
Yes, it determines how you handle the throttle.
One direction you chop the throttle, and in the other direction you slam the throttle against the wall.

In either case, as you 'wing over' one cuts the throttle until the a/c is stable.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Got any tracks?

Bremspropeller
09-18-2009, 03:16 PM
Well na85, generally speaking, Freddie is right, but as spinning usually includes oscillatory-modes (usually on all three axis), messing with the throttle is pretty much advisd against.

I've seen spinning-test movies of Pilatus' new PC-21 and it indeed handles differently into different spinning directions.
Spins can be steady and stable, but they can also be very violent.
Engine gyro-moment usually plays a role in that, as well as prop-slipstream.

DrHerb
09-18-2009, 03:19 PM
I forget, is the TA-152 still the infernal spinning machine that was even trickier to recover than a P-39?

BillSwagger
09-18-2009, 03:27 PM
I find most of my spins are easily recovered by just centering the stick. Its when im low on airspeed that the spin will become more violent, requiring rudder.

I rarely mess with throttle, but there are some planes such as the ki-43, that seem to regain control better when you are in a completely flat spin. So i'm in the habit of throttling down and using opposite rudder.
As long as you have your nose pitched downt, you can also use a subtle amount of aileron to roll with the spin keeping with full opposite rudder.

Treetop64
09-18-2009, 04:02 PM
A lot depends on the aircraft type. Some simply find themselves if you cut the throttle and let everything go. Others you must also apply opposite rudder, and in some cases, full forward on the stick as well. In all cases you will lose from at least 2000 to 5000 feet before you'll even begin to recover, so if you spin while within a kilometer or so of the deck, bail out immediately; dont't waste any time in recovering because you won't make it.

I have to say, though, that this is the first time I've ever heard anyone recommend applying full throttle to get out of the spin. I wouldn't recommend it, since the engine and propeller rotation is adding to the gyroscopic effect of the spin, and adding more throttle will only worsen the situation.

WTE_Galway
09-20-2009, 07:45 AM
Its probably worth noting that most of the spins that occur in IL2 are not genuine flat spins (nose high, rotating on vertical axis no significant movement on lateral or longitudinal axis) just common garden variety spins.

A normal spin is far easier to recover from than a genuine flat spin.

Depending on the precise position of the CoG some flat spins are unrecoverable. The further aft the CoG the more likely an unrecoveable spin. WWII aircaft known to enter unrecoverable spins if strict attention was not paid to CoG when loading munitions and fuel include the P39 and the P51 with early variants of the auxiliary fuel tank.

oh ... and for awesome nauseating fun ... try an inverted flat spin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MD_Titus
09-20-2009, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Its probably worth noting that most of the spins that occur in IL2 are not genuine flat spins (nose high, rotating on vertical axis no significant movement on lateral or longitudinal axis) just common garden variety spins.

A normal spin is far easier to recover from than a genuine flat spin.


oh ... and for awesome nauseating fun ... try an inverted flat spin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
yes, always a stomach churner that, although usually conducted without a tail...

K_Freddie
09-20-2009, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by na85:
Got any tracks?
Put these (V4.08 - 40KB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/spins.zip) together in rapid succession.

I tried the P39 but it's as solid as a brick in a flat spin, and only oppo rudder gets it out of the spin.

The FW and ME109, I tried to get the spin as flat as possible then recover without applying rudder. It is quicker to get out of the spin applying oppo rudder.

The method I used here was to accellerate the spin and then sync the elevator/throttle and neutralise rudder (no opposite rudder). The idea is to show that you can get out of a spin by only using the elevator/throttle (propwash) variations.

This would help if you've lost rudder control.

Leady-450
09-20-2009, 06:43 PM
Hi All

This is the best way to get out of a flat spin in a P39

Oh yeah and the tune is catchy too!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...2hdcTk4&feature=fvsr (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZCi2hdcTk4&feature=fvsr)

My record is less the 800m of altitude lost!

Cheers

Leady

AndyJWest
09-20-2009, 07:16 PM
Leady, that is a spin, but it is not a flat spin. While the P-39 is still oscillating in pitch, it is recoverable. I have yet to see a video of a recovery from a P-39 flat spin, though I'm not saying it can't be done.

TS_Sancho
09-20-2009, 07:36 PM
Andy, drop the gear and flaps then hard rudder in the direction of the spin to get the nose down on the P39.

Best advice is to know your aircraft and avoid pushing it into uncontrolled flight to begin with.

Treetop64
09-20-2009, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Best advice is to know your aircraft and avoid pushing it into uncontrolled flight to begin with.

Best advice in this thread.

Leady-450
09-20-2009, 10:31 PM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Quote
Leady, that is a spin, but it is not a flat spin. While the P-39 is still oscillating in pitch, it is recoverable. I have yet to see a video of a recovery from a P-39 flat spin, though I'm not saying it can't be done.
</span>

Hi Andy

Go ahead and try it at 5000m and give the aircraft a good 15secs to settle into the flat spin. The technique works very well for all P39 spins, oscillating or true flatspin.

If you start early and use the technique as the video shows you will never have to recover from a full flat spin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Most people mash the controls or go straight for the gear and flaps option. The first option results in a full flat spin and smoking crater. The second option results in 3000m of lost height and a 50% chance of a smoking crater.

Like TS_Sancho says best to know your aircraft and never be in that position but if you do depart from the envolope this technique works!!

RPMcMurphy
09-20-2009, 11:20 PM
The only way to get out of a flat-spin is to pull on the calibration tachometer suppresor while at the same time locking the symetrically balanced continuity actuator. After that you better be sure to flip out the external flaperons to overtake the anti-vortex yaw dampering flatuating control surfaces.

Leady-450
09-20-2009, 11:25 PM
Eggs-daiquiri!!!

WTE_Galway
09-20-2009, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by RPMcMurphy:
The only way to get out of a flat-spin is to pull on the calibration tachometer suppresor while at the same time locking the symetrically balanced continuity actuator. After that you better be sure to flip out the external flaperons to overtake the anti-vortex yaw dampering flatuating control surfaces.

LOL ... well the old timers stories are that one technique was to unstrap yourself but instead of bailing throw yourself forward in the cockpit to move the CoG forward, but not sure if I believe anyone really did that and lived to tell the tail.

RPMcMurphy
09-20-2009, 11:30 PM
Don't forget to flatuate, that always helps.

Treetop64
09-20-2009, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by RPMcMurphy:
The only way to get out of a flat-spin is to pull on the calibration tachometer suppresor while at the same time locking the symetrically balanced continuity actuator. After that you better be sure to flip out the external flaperons to overtake the anti-vortex yaw dampering flatuating control surfaces.

*Pfffft* - well, obviously... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

M_Gunz
09-21-2009, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Andy, drop the gear and flaps then hard rudder in the direction of the spin to get the nose down on the P39.

Best advice is to know your aircraft and avoid pushing it into uncontrolled flight to begin with.

Not rudder against the spin and not aileron in the direction of the spin? Nothing about elevator, is it useless?

M_Gunz
09-21-2009, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Andy, drop the gear and flaps then hard rudder in the direction of the spin to get the nose down on the P39.

Best advice is to know your aircraft and avoid pushing it into uncontrolled flight to begin with.

What? No hard skidding highspeed turns using extra rudder to get those extra degrees?

WTE_Galway
09-21-2009, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Andy, drop the gear and flaps then hard rudder in the direction of the spin to get the nose down on the P39.

Best advice is to know your aircraft and avoid pushing it into uncontrolled flight to begin with.

Not rudder against the spin and not aileron in the direction of the spin? Nothing about elevator, is it useless? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


my feeling is that aileron on a stalled wing can only be bad .. as for elevator, how much control authority is it going to have in a spin ?

RPMcMurphy
09-21-2009, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RPMcMurphy:
The only way to get out of a flat-spin is to pull on the calibration tachometer suppresor while at the same time locking the symetrically balanced continuity actuator. After that you better be sure to flip out the external flaperons to overtake the anti-vortex yaw dampering flatuating control surfaces.

LOL ... well the old timers stories are that one technique was to unstrap yourself but instead of bailing throw yourself forward in the cockpit to move the CoG forward, but not sure if I believe anyone really did that and lived to tell the tail. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well hey, that brings to mind that recent thread somebody posted about an F-106 Pilot who ejected during a flat-spin and the plane ended up making a pilot-less landing fairly undamaged. It seems that his 'bailing-out' disrupted the aerodynamic phenominal wtf was going-on-there, and this caused the plane to straighten out and fly right; without a human.

M_Gunz
09-21-2009, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Andy, drop the gear and flaps then hard rudder in the direction of the spin to get the nose down on the P39.

Best advice is to know your aircraft and avoid pushing it into uncontrolled flight to begin with.

Not rudder against the spin and not aileron in the direction of the spin? Nothing about elevator, is it useless? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


my feeling is that aileron on a stalled wing can only be bad .. as for elevator, how much control authority is it going to have in a spin ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe TX_Ecodragon will show up and say just why. Forward stick but not too far is one standard I've seen in the list
of do this, then that kind of instructions.

My big question is why so many players don't see the stall that precedes the spin but then I've done just that when fixated
on keeping a target in sight and not paying enough attention to my speed, attitude and stick response. It's a wake-up call,
it is! And IRL it may be the last one you ever get.

Bremspropeller
09-21-2009, 02:49 AM
my feeling is that aileron on a stalled wing can only be bad .. as for elevator, how much control authority is it going to have in a spin ?

Well, as the aileron on the stalled wing would go up, there's not much trouble to that as that's gonna lower that wing's chord-line and thus AoA.

The outer wng's aileron on the other hand is gonna produce more lift and drag, thus "pusing" you over into a steeper attitude.

However, aircraft react differently on these actions, thus just putting aileron into the spin and waiting for something to happen should be advised against.
Read the aircraft's flight-manual and you'll know for sure.

The problem with standard-procedures is that they sometimes just don't apply.
Take the LS 7 for example.
In that glider, the spin is recovered by putting AILERON against the spin.

Sounds fishy? That's exactly what the manual says.
Try the rudder and you're gonna ride her right down to the deck.

AndyJWest
09-21-2009, 03:20 AM
I think I'll throw a spanner in the works here, by asking whether all P-39 variants have the same spin characteristics? I got the impression that in real life earlier models were more inclined to spin, and that to some extent IL-2 was like this too. Difficult to prove, as experiments on the edge of the flight envelope are hard to reproduce consistently. As has been suggested earlier CG is clearly a factor, but I don't think that IL-2 models CG change with reducing fuel load, or does it?

I'm coming to the conclusion that the sim P-39 isn't the death-trap it is sometimes reputed to be provided you react quickly if you do spin it. Better to avoid in the first place of course, but an ill-judged snap shot in a dogfight, (or simple information overload, in my case: poor SA) can catch you out, and if you fly it too 'safe' you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.

BTW, my yaw dampering flatuator is automatically activated in a spin. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Wespe1943
09-23-2009, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:

To get out of a spin varies a little from aircraft to aircraft, however the general principle is:
[LIST] <LI>Let go of all your controls
<LI>If you're still spinning, turn your rudder opposite the spin and hold it there
<LI>If you're still spinning, push your stick all the way forward and hold it there


Once you recover, allow the aircraft to recover and gather some speed before manouvering again or you'll have to start over.
Edit: added smileys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Worked like a charm!