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Ernst_Rohr
04-02-2007, 12:28 PM
After reading Txgunslingers excellent response to the Flying the 190D9 thread, I thought it might be a good idea to put up some other threads for folks that have similar questions about other a/c.

I have one of my own. I love the P-38, but cant seem to get it to perform. I have done ok on occassion, but most of the time wind up smacked. Any pointers?

faustnik
04-02-2007, 12:35 PM
Ask Cuda.

stalkervision
04-02-2007, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
After reading Txgunslingers excellent response to the Flying the 190D9 thread, I thought it might be a good idea to put up some other threads for folks that have similar questions about other a/c.

I have one of my own. I love the P-38, but cant seem to get it to perform. I have done ok on occassion, but most of the time wind up smacked. Any pointers?

Try using differential throttling of the engines combined with the rudder to make extreamly tight turns. I have read many p=38 pilots could literally spin the 38 on it's axis using this method for extreamly quick turns! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Gibbage1
04-02-2007, 06:09 PM
It wont work in-game. IL2 was never designed to use a lot of the features that made the P-38 a great aircraft.

VW-IceFire
04-02-2007, 08:33 PM
Flying the P-38 depends on who your opponent is most of the time. If its a 109 or a 190 then you can usually out turn (but not out roll) them quite handily and you can always go into a very high angle climb and force them to stall out. You can stall fight either German fighter quite well but don't let them behind you at all because the P-38 is a very nice big target.

With the Japanese just stay fast and climb. Pounce at good opportunities and turn sparingly.

The guns on the P-38 have the advantage of being an absolute buzzsaw so when you hit its devastating but it isn't much for spray and pray so gunnery needs to be precise and exacting. Personally I use it more in a fighter-bomber role...its ground attack is devastating and its still a completely competent fighter once the ordinance is gone. Actually even when its still attached you can do fairly well. One online mission I flew with a full load of HVAR and 1000lb bombs saw me and my wingman (same loadout) run into a pair of Ju-88s which we dispatched and then attacked some Tiger's before heading back. We never ditched the bombs while attacking the bombers...possibly madness but we came back with two bombers down and several tanks destroyed! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lead-Brick
04-02-2007, 10:14 PM
I'm pretty much a Noob so I was pleasently surprised when I hopped into a P38 the other night. Boy they are just so nice to fly. A great fighter bomber nice and stable.

I'm looking forward to some tips on using them as a fighter.

I'm going to have a shot at using the engines in a rudder turn in the air tonight. It works really well on the air field.

Cheers

Kim

Treetop64
04-02-2007, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
After reading Txgunslingers excellent response to the Flying the 190D9 thread, I thought it might be a good idea to put up some other threads for folks that have similar questions about other a/c.

I have one of my own. I love the P-38, but cant seem to get it to perform. I have done ok on occassion, but most of the time wind up smacked. Any pointers?

Try using differential throttling of the engines combined with the rudder to make extreamly tight turns. I have read many p=38 pilots could literally spin the 38 on it's axis using this method for extreamly quick turns! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to disagree. While it is indeed possible to perform this maneuver in the P-38, unless you've gotten yourself in a situation where you're getting smaked hard from behind, you NEVER want to perform tight maneuvers in the 38. Never. Speed is life in this bird. Always, always, always keep your speed up, in every manuever; ideally above 250mph.

Patience is key when fighting in the 38. ALWAYS seek the altitude advantage (thus the energy advantage). Use the 38's speed and climbing ability to do this. Take the time this affords you and size up your quarry from above. Attack ONLY when you know you can have a clean diving run at him. Follow him as you com down, and give the proper deflection when you open fire (you need to be highly proficient in deflection shooting if this tactic is going to work for you at all)..If he makes any abrupt, violent evasive maneuvers when you're coming down on top of him, DO NOT TRY TO MATCH HIS TURNS!!! Doing so will only bleed off and kill the energy advantage you've built during your climb and subsequent dive. Simply level off and pull up gently and use your newfound speed to climb back up to altitude and start the process again.

Obviously this takes a lot of patience, good skill, and good timing. It will also take a lot of practice, but it can be done.

This is basically the "Boom and Zoom" maneuver, or BnZ.

Whatever you do - ALWAYS KEEP YOUR SPEED UP, even in the turns (this means your turns will be much more gentle than performed with a more aggressively maneuvering aircraft, but if you're moving fast enough and timing your attacks properly, you wont have to worry about anyone getting behind to chew you up)

However, you don't want to go too fast in the 38...

If you are starting a fight where your opponent is above you, then you're already screwed. The best you can hope for in this case is to throtte up and hope he does something stup that allows you to get away.

Note:

Like the P-51, the P-38 was designed and built to do everything at a very high rate of forward speed.

That's the particular problem many have with the American machines; they try to fly and fight in them like they're flying Spits, and that will get you shot down every time.

ViktorViktor
04-03-2007, 12:14 AM
Treetop 64 writes
Like the P-51, the P-38 was designed and built to do everything at a very high rate of forward speed.

That's the particular problem many have with the American machines; they try to fly and fight in them like they're flying Spits, and that will get you shot down every time.


This style of fighting requires a high degree of self-discipline and to me feels often 'unnatural'. (but I've learned it is the optimal way, at least for planes like these) I would think this style of fighting requires a deal more training than TnB style.

This brings to mind an interesting question - were the real P38 and P51 pilots trained to consciously fight at high speeds ? In the Pacific theater I think this could be true, but in the European theater, the accounts I've read of combat involving P51 and P38s don't show that this method was used more than any other method. I've read plenty accounts of P51 and P47 jockeys turning and burning w/ 109s and 190s (and with success, I might add). Fighting at high speed doesn't seem to have been a rule of thumb for USAAF pilots in the European theater, so why is it paramount in IL2 ? I don't recall reading that USAAF pilots having a significantly different combat training doctrine from that of the RAF, or that of the Luftwaffe, for that matter.

Treetop64
04-03-2007, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Treetop 64 writes <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Like the P-51, the P-38 was designed and built to do everything at a very high rate of forward speed.

That's the particular problem many have with the American machines; they try to fly and fight in them like they're flying Spits, and that will get you shot down every time.


This style of fighting requires a high degree of self-discipline and to me feels often 'unnatural'. (but I've learned it is the optimal way, at least for planes like these) I would think this style of fighting requires a deal more training than TnB style.

This brings to mind an interesting question - were the real P38 and P51 pilots trained to consciously fight at high speeds ? In the Pacific theater I think this could be true, but in the European theater, the accounts I've read of combat involving P51 and P38s don't show that this method was used more than any other method. I've read plenty accounts of P51 and P47 jockeys turning and burning w/ 109s and 190s (and with success, I might add). Fighting at high speed doesn't seem to have been a rule of thumb for USAAF pilots in the European theater, so why is it paramount in IL2 ? I don't recall reading that USAAF pilots having a significantly different combat training doctrine from that of the RAF, or that of the Luftwaffe, for that matter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chiefly, the flying characteristics of a particular model aircraft will dictate how it is best flown in certain tactical situations. Obviously a P-47 pilot is not going want to "match wits" with an A6M series machine. However, if he's moving fast enough then he can actually out-turn his opponent, as some axis aircraft (primarily the Me-109 and A6M series) actually began to lose dynamic performance the faster they flew, while the P-47, among others, could actually be flown more aggressively at higher speeds. No matter what you fly and who you fight for, in air-to-air combat speed is always a rule of thumb. Some pilot/plane combinations took better advantage of it than others, but no one can do much at all if they're not moving quickly.

Ground attack mission were prominent in the ETO. Consequently one has to fly slower if you're going to be effective at all against slow-moving or static ground targets.

Pilot training, experience, fitness were vital factors to consider as well. By the time the latter years of the war were passing most of the experinced axis fighter pilots were either dead or captured. At the same time many allied fighter pilots were highly experinced and capable, able to extract the highest performance out of their charges - at a wide variety of points within the flight envelope - while a majority of the few remaining axis pliots had perhaps only a few hours of flying time at all.

Gibbage1
04-03-2007, 01:21 AM
The good thing about the P-38 is that you can fly in BOTH styles. I can use her to dance with the best. I use that with FW-190's. For 109's, I keep the speed up, and use energy tactics. She does great with both styles.

BSS_CUDA
04-03-2007, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
Ask Cuda. no wonder my ears were burning http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ask more specific questions and I'll be glad to answer them.

who's you opposition?
what style do you like to fight?

you can do both styles pretty good in this bird. but you cannot do them both great.
compressibility limits your true BNZ capabilities. and she's has too slow a roll to be a true TNB plane. but with a lot of practice and dedication she can be good at both. to the new pilot she will be unforgiving as a pure fighter. be prepared for a spanking when you start out. if I had to give advise on flying her it would be.
"Know your Plane. Know your opponent"

Ernst_Rohr
04-03-2007, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
Ask Cuda. no wonder my ears were burning http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ask more specific questions and I'll be glad to answer them.

who's you opposition?
what style do you like to fight?

you can do both styles pretty good in this bird. but you cannot do them both great.
compressibility limits your true BNZ capabilities. and she's has too slow a roll to be a true TNB plane. but with a lot of practice and dedication she can be good at both. to the new pilot she will be unforgiving as a pure fighter. be prepared for a spanking when you start out. if I had to give advise on flying her it would be.
"Know your Plane. Know your opponent" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Basically, I have done very well as a ground attack jock with the 38. As far as that goes, its a flying dump truck of destruction. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As you pointed out, I am at the "getting spanked" stage. I did respectably well with it in a B&Z mode in a desert map, and tore up some 190's. 109's proved more of an issue. While I bushwhacked a couple of them doing the old "climbing turn" trick, the smart 109 jocks drove me like a bus.

I just cant seem to extend away from them fast enough. They are just as fast, turn better, can follow me in a dive. In short, 109's just give me fits.

What is a good defensive strategy in the P-38?

I have forced overshoots in the L model via the good old "dive and hit the airbrakes" trick, but thats kind of a one trick pony against smart pilots, and doesnt work at all on the early model 38. Roll at high speeds does work at shedding pesky 109's, but the 190 jocks just laugh. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I love the 38, I just need to figure out what the heck I am doing wrong, be it mindset or am I just missing something basic.

BTW Cuda, if you want to throw in some pointers on the Corsair, I would love to hear them. I have flown against you guys several times, and HATE when you guys fly Corsairs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SirPapps
04-03-2007, 07:18 PM
If im not mistaken, Cuda, i believe that the P-38 can be handled to its best when/if a pilot learns how to use the vertical as much as possible. counter-rotating props are fuuuun xD

VFA-195 Snacky
04-04-2007, 04:51 AM
Flying the IL2 P38 is simple:

1- altitude advantage
2- SPEED!
3- Get a wingman
4- Fight your fight, not his
5- This is oleg's world and his rules apply

BSS_CUDA
04-04-2007, 06:18 AM
to be honest I don't seem to have too many problems with the 109's some of the things that work best for me are.

1. get IL2 stick and set you max rudder deflection to 87%, if you need 100% then trim it out, this seems to keep it more stable and keeps you from snap stalling.

2. when against the K turn, stay out of the verticle. the K has a better climb and is faster than you but cannot out turn you.

3. against a G2 extend, your significantly faster than a G2. the problem here is if your going too slow to begin with then your in trouble he will latch onto you and you wont be able to shake him fast enough so keep your speed higher.

4. against all other 109's your on pretty equal footing, you turn as well, your as fast and you climb as well in a steep short climb, the only true advantage they have is roll. your best true advantage is a shallow climb or dive but you need a bit of separation for this to work. about a 10 degree climb or a constant 240MPH and you will extend from them, if you turn fight then try to stay around 180 MPH and no lower, thats your best climb and turn speed. if your spped get low and you feel that he's starting to turn on you, start YO-YO-ing the 38 does this very well

my favorite trick to use on 109 and 190 jock is a reversal, if they are coming in with a speed advantage on me, I'll start a turn keeping myself just out of their gun sights. and as they bleed E and over shoot then I roll in a slight verticle and they always come out in my sights and then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif this will take practice to know when to implement it so as not to roll right in front of them and get your arse handed to you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
this works amazingly consistently, the advantage of really knowing the 38, is that so many people do not and your opponent will ASSUME that your one of the do nots. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
don't take all this info as I never get shot down in the 38 because I do, but I dish out much more than I take. people say the 38 in-game is not a dog-fighter, pure BS ask Tagert who has flown with me and against me on may occasions, I turn fight with almost anything and do amazing well, I turn fight with KI-84's with my own squad and others in the Sair, with all German planes except the G2, and sometimes have dogged it against Spits for a short time.
unfortunately this bird has a glass jaw and doesn't take much do get blown to pieces. but when you get used to her she's a pure killer. I just love the overconfident boneheads in this forum that think otherwise http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Good luck hope some of this helps you, if you have any pointers that I might try I'm always willing to learn and make my self better in the 38

Ernst_Rohr
04-04-2007, 07:29 AM
Excellent post Cuda, I will try it. The speeds you mentioned help quite a bit for sorting out best handling. It does look like I was probably too slow most of the time.

shahram177
04-04-2007, 09:07 AM
Yummmm P-38!
It's what for dinner.
I love the P-38, it's a big gorgeous pig.
So much fun to fly if no one is out for your blood or if you want to take out some ground targest! But if you in a small map where you start off on the ground....ha your kidding me right! Sure it's fast but you know whats faster? Bullets! Pull away my ***!
That and one hit the thing start bleeding gass! Two hits and the horizontal stabilizer falls off.
Look she's a beautiful plane and all....but...she needs the blue bottle of love and two beach ball sized turbo chargers to get her fat *** moving off the deck so she won't become my dinner!
And I'm no ace!

Ed6269
04-04-2007, 04:29 PM
...That said, I can't get the Cobra over 200 KIA or so, nor prevent it from skidding about like a dog on Linoleum. Practice, I guess. (What warning do you get before the thing swaps ends?)

BSS_CUDA
04-04-2007, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by shahram177:
Yummmm P-38!
It's what for dinner.
I love the P-38, it's a big gorgeous pig.
So much fun to fly if no one is out for your blood or if you want to take out some ground targest! But if you in a small map where you start off on the ground....ha your kidding me right! Sure it's fast but you know whats faster? Bullets! Pull away my ***!
That and one hit the thing start bleeding gass! Two hits and the horizontal stabilizer falls off.
Look she's a beautiful plane and all....but...she needs the blue bottle of love and two beach ball sized turbo chargers to get her fat *** moving off the deck so she won't become my dinner!
And I'm no ace!

your welcome to test that assumption at your convienece http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm on HL during the weekends