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View Full Version : The BIG difference between Luftwhining and USAAFwhining.



XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 04:25 AM
Luftwhiners (a term of endearment) seem to have the laser beam ability to put the majority of their efforts into one super-data filled thread that retains its position in the top three posts in ORR...e.g. the Fw190 thread. Oh, sure, there were other threads, but they were far less informative than the main one.

USAAFwhiners (a term of endearment) seem to have the ability to propogate a sort of rolling cluster-bomb like effect of several medium size threads that seem to alternatively rise to the top of the forum.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 04:25 AM
Luftwhiners (a term of endearment) seem to have the laser beam ability to put the majority of their efforts into one super-data filled thread that retains its position in the top three posts in ORR...e.g. the Fw190 thread. Oh, sure, there were other threads, but they were far less informative than the main one.

USAAFwhiners (a term of endearment) seem to have the ability to propogate a sort of rolling cluster-bomb like effect of several medium size threads that seem to alternatively rise to the top of the forum.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 04:45 AM
Lol/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I've noticed the same thing! I wonder which is more effective....

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 04:53 AM
necrobaron wrote:
- Lol I've noticed the same
- thing! I wonder which is more effective....
-


Probably neither. They will both end up with a "You is wrong." /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

eskimo-FHmod
08-16-2003, 04:56 AM
'would you like a glass of whine with that ?'



<centerhttp://homepages.ihug.com.au/~peabody/ihugSig.jpg (http://www.fhmod.com)

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:02 AM
Wait till us Brits start dissecting the Spitfire.....we'll show you all waht proper whin4ge is.



Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:36 AM
Luftwhinners are more effective.. look what they gained in the latest patch... kinda obvious, I have to applause them to make change Oleg so much..

------------------
Eric


http://srm.racesimcentral.com/il2.shtml

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 07:25 AM
Very true Hangar, your right on the money. The Luft~Chickens
Have a very affective lobby going in FB. A shame we don't have the same/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
This was one of the main resons i was pushing for a virtual USAAF. Strength in numbers. We need some kind of represntation. I set up a USAAF forum about 2 weeks ago.
So Far no one's used it./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif For some reason our voice goes unheard. Amazing considering how many US cash went into the pockets of the Dev & Publisher. My uneducated guess would be that close to 70% of all FB sales were US cutomers.
And the luft~chickens whine about how b adly the are getting screwed on the FM's. lol It's really quite ridiculous. and they pich the stupidest things to whine over...a bar in the coackpit? Give me a break.

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 09:23 AM
Luftwhiners: charts, drawings, pics, stories, videos, tests, topics always on the first page, intelligent and "long-distance" lobbying, team organisation etc...


USAAFwhiners: P-47 doesn't roll!

VVSwhiners: patch sucks!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 11:40 AM
Spitwhiners: where the hell is our plane

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 11:44 AM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- Very true Hangar, your right on the money. The
- Luft~Chickens
- Have a very affective lobby going in FB. A shame we
- don't have the same/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
- This was one of the main resons i was pushing for a
- virtual USAAF. Strength in numbers. We need some
- kind of represntation. I set up a USAAF forum about
- 2 weeks ago.
- So Far no one's used it./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif For some reason our voice goes
- unheard. Amazing considering how many US cash went
- into the pockets of the Dev & Publisher. My
- uneducated guess would be that close to 70% of all
- FB sales were US cutomers.
- And the luft~chickens whine about how b adly the are
- getting screwed on the FM's. lol It's really quite
- ridiculous. and they pich the stupidest things to
- whine over...a bar in the coackpit? Give me a break.


Occasionally, the self-importance of some people just beggars belief.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 11:44 AM
Eh no offence, but FB 1.0 was a hell for most LW-planes.. 1.1 luckily fixxed 97% of the LW-problems..and now you don't see that much luwtwhining, do you? Instead you see USAAF-whining about the Jug.. though I do agree about that horrible roll rate..FW-190 forward view is hopefully going to stay bumbed allways /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Be sure

____________________________________



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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 11:47 AM
dear Jug whiner Copperhead310th:
about the bar: how would you feel if your rollrate were "accurate" but the vertical bar in the early series blocked half your aimer(forgot the word)? and by the way your zoom and dive were cut short? And you had to stay with the early series cockpit? Give ME a break, will ya?

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king."


"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king."

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 11:48 AM
Lixma wrote:


-Wait till us Brits start dissecting the Spitfire.....we'll show you all waht proper whin4ge is.


HellToupee wrote:
- Spitwhiners: where the hell is our plane


Wait till our Spits hit the skies and meet `my roll rate ain`t good enough P-47s` and `my bf109s too slow` whiners. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
You Americans and Germans ain`t seen nothing yet! The War hasn`t even yet begun!





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 11:51 AM
Doesn't anyone care about the P-11?

IT SHOULD HAVE LASER BEAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I mean, omgwdf? You heard me, omgwdf.

I am so not buying the "next sim".

GRRRRRRRRRRRRR



Message Edited on 08/16/0304:53AM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 11:52 AM
CHDT wrote:
- Luftwhiners: charts, drawings, pics, stories,
- videos, tests, topics always on the first page,
- intelligent and "long-distance" lobbying, team
- organisation etc...
-
-
- USAAFwhiners: P-47 doesn't roll!
-
- VVSwhiners: patch sucks!

Eh heh heh! Right on the money.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 11:59 AM
CHDT wrote:
- Luftwhiners: charts, drawings, pics, stories,
- videos, tests, topics always on the first page,
- intelligent and "long-distance" lobbying, team
- organisation etc...
-
-
- USAAFwhiners: P-47 doesn't roll!
-
- VVSwhiners: patch sucks!
-
- Cheers,
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





JG27_Arklight
"Taking out the garbage since release"

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 12:09 PM
If I were to characterize Wuergerwhining threads and Jugwhiners` ones, it will be like that:

Wuergerwhiners obtained the effect of a very well aimed burst of MK108 pp(post-patch), while jugwhiners still have the effect of a rookie-firing-all-his-ammo-in-one-loooong-burst of 8*.50cal prp(pre-patch)

Learn aiming jugwhiners, aim for specific charts, documents, etc.

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king."

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 12:12 PM
Maybe its because, to be a Luftwhiner, you actually have to fly Luftwaffe planes in flight sims. Now, LW planes are always the hardest to fly, requireing tactics incomprehensible to your average player, so that guarantees only the best, most experienced and mature players will play them. Thus, the Luftwhiners are the cream of the sim playing crop (and use ghey words like "thus" in their posts).

The Yankwhiners on the other hand are the kiddies who have been playing all the psuedo-sims made in the USA, and are used to their favorite planes being uber from the get go. So imagine their suprise when the P-47 can't outturn a 109 nor outroll a 190. Sacrilegious! They don't need "tables" or "charts" because they have their war heroes telling them how superior USA planes are, and the simple fact that the USA won the war (but don't seem to notice that Russia came out on top).

The Spitwhiners are quiet because they know, when the Spit comes out, it's gonna get raped by every Yak and Me-262 in the sky. Without hordes of FW-190s to fly circles and loops around, the Spit ain't looking so good anymore.

The VVSwhiners, well, they realized they don't have to whine. Life is good when the uberhighperformancefighter is no trouble to you when you've got your biplane.

The P-11 whiner just killed himself in a dark room. Nobody understood him, and it was like he didn't even exist. Lets have a moment of silence for whats his name. May he find in heaven what he didn't find on earth (laser beams).




<div align=center>http://www.members.shaw.ca/fennec/plane.jpg </div><font size=-9>

Message Edited on 08/16/0305:13AM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 12:29 PM
CHDT wrote:
- Luftwhiners: charts, drawings, pics, stories,
- videos, tests, topics always on the first page,
- intelligent and "long-distance" lobbying, team
- organisation etc...
-
-
- USAAFwhiners: P-47 doesn't roll!
-
- VVSwhiners: patch sucks!
-
- Cheers,
-

ROFLOL !! /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 12:41 PM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
The P-11 whiner just killed himself in a dark room.
- Nobody understood him, and it was like he didn't
- even exist. Lets have a moment of silence for whats
- his name. May he find in heaven what he didn't find
- on earth (laser beams).


hehehe. Its funny. hehehehe...

------------------------------------------------------------

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Al Bundy



"Ich brauche kein Viagra. Ich brauche ein Gegenmittel."
kama1

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 01:06 PM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- Maybe its because, to be a Luftwhiner, you actually
- have to fly Luftwaffe planes in flight sims. Now,
- LW planes are always the hardest to fly, requireing
- tactics incomprehensible to your average player, so
- that guarantees only the best, most experienced and
- mature players will play them. Thus, the
- Luftwhiners are the cream of the sim playing crop
- (and use ghey words like "thus" in their posts).
-
- The Yankwhiners on the other hand are the kiddies
- who have been playing all the psuedo-sims made in
- the USA, and are used to their favorite planes being
- uber from the get go. So imagine their suprise when
- the P-47 can't outturn a 109 nor outroll a 190.
- Sacrilegious! They don't need "tables" or "charts"
- because they have their war heroes telling them how
- superior USA planes are, and the simple fact that
- the USA won the war (but don't seem to notice that
- Russia came out on top).
-
- The Spitwhiners are quiet because they know, when
- the Spit comes out, it's gonna get raped by every
- Yak and Me-262 in the sky. Without hordes of
- FW-190s to fly circles and loops around, the Spit
- ain't looking so good anymore.
-
- The VVSwhiners, well, they realized they don't have
- to whine. Life is good when the
- uberhighperformancefighter is no trouble to you when
- you've got your biplane.
-
- The P-11 whiner just killed himself in a dark room.
- Nobody understood him, and it was like he didn't
- even exist. Lets have a moment of silence for whats
- his name. May he find in heaven what he didn't find
- on earth (laser beams).
-
-
-
-


I could NOT have said it better myself. Great post Fennec! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>
---------------------------------------
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</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 01:42 PM
Whoever said that most of FB sales were in the US couldn't be more wrong.

According to what we know (leaked info and stuff like that) IL2 was far more succesfull in Europe than in the US. And that's excluding Russia, as far as I understand it.



"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
http://ourworld.cs.com/Demolisher%20SWE/signature01.jpg
Former Würgerwhiner extraordinaire

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 02:02 PM
There is a difference, usa rokie pilots sholdnt complain, the war was won with numbers of their plains, not skill or quality, so the roll rate of p47 should be slowed down even more than now. he he

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 02:07 PM
Now thats some funny shat, especially the P11 pilot in the dark room. Kudos to your wit Fennec http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



StG77_Fennec wrote:
- Maybe its because, to be a Luftwhiner, you actually
- have to fly Luftwaffe planes in flight sims. Now,
- LW planes are always the hardest to fly, requireing
- tactics incomprehensible to your average player, so
- that guarantees only the best, most experienced and
- mature players will play them. Thus, the
- Luftwhiners are the cream of the sim playing crop
- (and use ghey words like "thus" in their posts).
-
- The Yankwhiners on the other hand are the kiddies
- who have been playing all the psuedo-sims made in
- the USA, and are used to their favorite planes being
- uber from the get go. So imagine their suprise when
- the P-47 can't outturn a 109 nor outroll a 190.
- Sacrilegious! They don't need "tables" or "charts"
- because they have their war heroes telling them how
- superior USA planes are, and the simple fact that
- the USA won the war (but don't seem to notice that
- Russia came out on top).
-
- The Spitwhiners are quiet because they know, when
- the Spit comes out, it's gonna get raped by every
- Yak and Me-262 in the sky. Without hordes of
- FW-190s to fly circles and loops around, the Spit
- ain't looking so good anymore.
-
- The VVSwhiners, well, they realized they don't have
- to whine. Life is good when the
- uberhighperformancefighter is no trouble to you when
- you've got your biplane.
-
- The P-11 whiner just killed himself in a dark room.
- Nobody understood him, and it was like he didn't
- even exist. Lets have a moment of silence for whats
- his name. May he find in heaven what he didn't find
- on earth (laser beams).
-
-
-
-
-
- <div align=center>http://www.members.shaw.ca/fennec/plane.jpg
- </div><font size=-9>
-
- Message Edited on 08/16/03 05:13AM by
- StG77_Fennec



TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 02:29 PM
LOL Warbirds had the Pony Mafia, FB/IL2 has the LuftMafia /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

Next in our plan is to have the P51 added armed with BB guns, and powered by a Volkswagon Bug engine /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

Roy Baty
IV/JG51 M¶lders

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 02:39 PM
roybaty wrote:
...and powered by a Volkswagon Bug engine
-
-

Better yet, we're going to demand it be a glider. You know, towed by the B17s and released when LW attacks. Armament will be a flintlock musket operated directly by the pilot. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
http://ourworld.cs.com/Demolisher%20SWE/signature01.jpg
Former Würgerwhiner extraordinaire

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 02:45 PM
DR_Hangar wrote:
- Luftwhinners are more effective.. look what they
- gained in the latest patch... kinda obvious, I have
- to applause them to make change Oleg so much..
-
-------------------
- Eric
-
-
-


Yeah, and they've been working since late 2001.


Machine is well...uh, a Machine when it comes to cluster bombing a forum.

Eight pages of the Blitzpig forum, anyone?

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 02:51 PM
Brana666 wrote:
- There is a difference, usa rokie pilots sholdnt
- complain, the war was won with numbers of their
- plains, not skill or quality, so the roll rate of
- p47 should be slowed down even more than now. he he
-
-


This shouldn't even be graced by a response, but....

<img src=http://www.tm001d6792.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dumb3.jpg>




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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 03:15 PM
Yea and IR misile tohttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 03:57 PM
CHDT wrote:
- Luftwhiners: charts, drawings, pics, stories,
- videos, tests, topics always on the first page,
- intelligent and "long-distance" lobbying, team
- organisation etc...
-
-
- USAAFwhiners: P-47 doesn't roll!
-
- VVSwhiners: patch sucks!
-
- Cheers,
-

Nice fishing. Seems to me it's been the other way around. I have yet to see a single chart detailing the elevator responce of the Fw-190, yet you guys seem to have whined you way into an uberplane, while us Jughead have posted chart after chart of data (or have you forgotten Buzzsaw's and SkyChimp's various posts), and when we *thought* the dev team had noticed it, we shut up and *stopped whining*. Apparently shutting up was a mistake; rather we should have whinned and moaned every single day, and every single hour until the patch was released, then complained some more just for good measure.

It seems to be the only way to get anything done around here.

Now your whining about our aircraft too. Can't you just be happy with a 190 that rolls and pitches far faster than it ought at high speeds? No, you people have to whine about that too. Perhapse some are afraid that it might draw attention to the fact that it's now the LW that's got a UFO? I'm getting really sick of it. And you have the nerve to call us whiners, after all you have done.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:15 PM
HarryVoyager wrote:


- you guys seem to have whined you way into an uberplane.


I don't remember anyone whining about the FW190 roll-rate in pre-patch FB. It was very accurate.

I also don't remember anyone requesting the high-speed roll-rate to be stuck at ~120 deg/sec. Personally I think it sucks out loud and is more of a hinderance than a help.

Several people noticed right away and have "whined" to get it fixed to it's historic rate, which was plenty uber enough in reality, thank you very much.

NOBODY requested the FW190 roll-rate to be increased at high speeds. The last time I checked, "luftwhiners" didn't have access to FB code.



- Can't you
- just be happy with a 190 that rolls and pitches far
- faster than it ought at high speeds?


Absolutely hell no we can't. Why would we? And just what is wrong with the pitch by the way? It's instantaneous turn rate and high-speed stall are very accurately modeled now.


Oh, and about the FW190 forward view - it was proven that FB does not model refraction and this affects the FW190 like no other fighter. 2-3 degrees can be quite significant. Chalk it up to limitations of our current processor technology and I can live with that.


As far as the Jug's roll-rate is concerned, I'll gladly give you guys the extra degrees left over from the Focke-Wulf and we can all be happy.


Except that some of the Jug-whiners will never be happy until the P-47 can withstand a direct hit from one of the Bismark's main guns from a distance of 10 meters. Oh and until it can tear a King Tiger in half with those eight 12.7s. (you know, like it could in real life)...


Oops, I better add a smiley==>/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Regards,

FW190fan
Commanding Officer VJG/26 Screaming Luft-Chickens.









<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:17 PM
No Text

Message Edited on 08/16/0304:22PM by K0VU

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:21 PM
NASCA Roll rates

http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/nacaroll.htm

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:49 PM
I posted this in the other P-47 thread.

Ianboys:

There are a couple of things that are a bit disturbing at this time in the debate/development process.

1.There have been a few respectful requests that Oleg's team post the data or source material for the current FM of the P-47.

This will put a stop to the endless data posts, since we all could just 'see' what the current FM is based on and the veracity of this source.

This is no minor issue at this point because Oleg has requested source material of a credible nature and got it. However, his lack of posting the same material for his JUG is questionable at best. This should be priority one because at the very least the veracity of his source material is at issue.

2.I think it would be better to just forward the data sent directly to Oleg's team and 'NOT' continuously debate these issues 'personally' in the forums. Frankly, you begin to look bias by doing so and if you are not the one making the final determination on FM, why try to prove folks wrong? That does not serve any purpose. This should 'NOT' be a pizzing contest mates.

This is not a flame or whine, it is a reasonable request for the benefit of the Il2-FB community.
S! all virtual pilots.

Despite what you Luftwhinners say, not all Americans are making unreasonable demands. Some of us just want it right and have backed the issue regarding roll rate with 'well known' sources of data regarding the FM of the real life JUG. There is no doubt in the veracity of the source material posted here about the JUG's FM by members.

What has happened is the Oleg's team has up to this point refused to provide the data and sources for the FM of his JUG in FB. This is the crux of the issue. Why doesn't Oleg's team post the data/sources and stand behind it if he believes that it is correct and has no doubts about the veracity of said data/sources?

It is a reasonable request that has yet to be addressed. Until the issue is properly addressed, you will have folks asking Oleg where he got 'his' source material from. In addition, the doubts surrounding the veracity of said source material are understandable because the current FM does not match the 'well known' source material presented here. S!

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 06:39 PM
Fennec wrote:

"The Yankwhiners on the other hand are the kiddies who have been playing all the psuedo-sims made in the USA, and are used to their favorite planes being uber from the get go. So imagine their suprise when the P-47 can't outturn a 109 nor outroll a 190. Sacrilegious! They don't need "tables" or "charts" because they have their war heroes telling them how superior USA planes are, and the simple fact that the USA won the war (but don't seem to notice that Russia came out on top)."



What is this trash?



S!
609IAP_Recon

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 06:50 PM
Recon_609IAP wrote:
- Fennec wrote:
-
- "The Yankwhiners on the other hand are the kiddies
- who have been playing all the psuedo-sims made in
- the USA, and are used to their favorite planes being
- uber from the get go. So imagine their suprise when
- the P-47 can't outturn a 109 nor outroll a 190.
- Sacrilegious! They don't need "tables" or "charts"
- because they have their war heroes telling them how
- superior USA planes are, and the simple fact that
- the USA won the war (but don't seem to notice that
- Russia came out on top)."
-
-
-
- What is this trash?
-
-
- S!
- 609IAP_Recon



Recon, I think thats called the "Cranius Insertum Anus" syndrome.he is showing signs of.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif... if not then i cant make heads or tails of him.

MADMAN


-

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 07:11 PM
" also don't remember anyone requesting the high-speed roll-rate to be stuck at ~120 deg/sec. Personally I think it sucks out loud and is more of a hinderance than a help."


Perfectly true, the roll rate of the current 190 is more annoying than useful; in fact, I tweaked my joystick settings to slow the roll rate a little bit and it's pretty good now.

Btw, about the P-47, I agree that the roll rate seems a little bit too slow!

Cheers,