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ottoramsaig1959
10-26-2007, 11:42 AM
Took the dive last night and decided to go 100% difficulty. Wow........This is no longer a turkey shoot. Thank God I actually took real flying lessons, it made it a little easier. Now this is what I call a challenge. IL2 original with upgrades. Can't wait to get home and climb back into Me 109G

Choctaw111
10-26-2007, 02:09 PM
I really dislike using the term "full real" because, after all, this is just a sim, and full real will never be achieved on a PC but I am glad that you have taken the plunge. I find it much more challenging and immersive this way.

T_O_A_D
10-26-2007, 02:17 PM
It really should of been called.

Most Difficult

Full Hard http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Insane Settings

etc.

cawimmer430
10-26-2007, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
It really should of been called.

Most Difficult

Full Hard http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Insane Settings

etc.

Or:

YOU GOT BALLS setting. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

willyvic
10-26-2007, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by ottoramsaig1959:
Took the dive last night and decided to go 100% difficulty...

Keeps your head on a swivel that's for sure. Enjoy the ride.

WV

thefruitbat
10-26-2007, 02:35 PM
only applies for online.

offline its somewhat less than real. No instant success, is the one switch that turns this more into a game, than any other switch. It does this by effectively makeing offline missions 'levels'.

Also, without internal padlock, you loose the ability to effectivly command the ai, as you cannot define individual targets without it.

just my two cents!

cheers fruitbat

Bearcat99
10-26-2007, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Also, without internal padlock, you loose the ability to effectivly command the ai, as you cannot define individual targets without it.
just my two cents!
cheers fruitbat

You know it took me 5 years to discover that if I want the AI to attack a target I have to padlock it and tell them to attack my target. I was really bitc#ing about the AI in here because they would be so flakey.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Just goes to show.

DKoor
10-26-2007, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
It really should of been called.

Most Difficult

Full Hard http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Insane Settings

etc. +1

DKoor
10-26-2007, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Also, without internal padlock, you loose the ability to effectivly command the ai, as you cannot define individual targets without it.
just my two cents!
cheers fruitbat

You know it took me 5 years to discover that if I want the AI to attack a target I have to padlock it and tell them to attack my target. I was really bitc#ing about the AI in here because they would be so flakey.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Just goes to show. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Can Ai be told to attack our target if padlock isn't on?
For instance on "realistic" settings?

thefruitbat
10-26-2007, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Also, without internal padlock, you loose the ability to effectivly command the ai, as you cannot define individual targets without it.
just my two cents!
cheers fruitbat

You know it took me 5 years to discover that if I want the AI to attack a target I have to padlock it and tell them to attack my target. I was really bitc#ing about the AI in here because they would be so flakey.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Just goes to show. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Can Ai be told to attack our target if padlock isn't on?
For instance on "realistic" settings? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as i know, no. Not in the same way as with padlock anyway. Offline i have had missions where i have run out of ammo and flown above an enemy bomber formation, and really enjoyed getting the ai to pick of the enemy one by one, flying 1000m above. Without padlock, i personally have had limited success getting the ai to do what i want.

To bearcat, it was about 5 years for me to http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

cheers fruitbat

K_Freddie
10-26-2007, 03:50 PM
I really dislike using the term "full real" because, after all, this is just a sim

Oh! for crying out loud, how many times do we have to hear this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif . Put on a 3D helmet and it's as real as it gets.
Full Real is the term used for the most realisitic settings in all PC games and we all know it doesn't apply to REAL LIFE... must we plod more on this PEDANTIC route.

And yes it's really great - 4 years down the tracks and still enjoying it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
10-26-2007, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I really dislike using the term "full real" because, after all, this is just a sim

Oh! for crying out loud, how many times do we have to hear this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif . Put on a 3D helmet and it's as real as it gets.
Full Real is the term used for the most realisitic settings in all PC games and we all know it doesn't apply to REAL LIFE... must we plod more on this PEDANTIC route.

And yes it's really great - 4 years down the tracks and still enjoying it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is NOT "full real" because it's actually LESS realistic. But full switch guys want to beat their chest too hard to accept that.

You have - a small window into the world, poor resolution compared to reality (no matter what your settings are), constrained FoV, 2D mimicing 3D, inability to see to realistic distances, and on it goes. Padlock actually ADDs realism (I know that's gonna set people off, lol). Icons help too IF configured well - not only for the aforementioned, but also to compensate for lack of briefings, flight plans, team coordination, and ground radio support.

Lock yourself in the pit, leave PL on, tweak icons and dot distances, turn off map path and leave Speed Bar on (goes back to the aforementioned issues, you can not see the gauges at their proper size or with proper ease in this game, thus the speed bar compensates), put the rest of the switches on and THEN you can call it "Full Real".

But full switch is not "full real". Simply no 2 ways around it.

M_Gunz
10-26-2007, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by ottoramsaig1959:
Took the dive last night and decided to go 100% difficulty. Wow........This is no longer a turkey shoot. Thank God I actually took real flying lessons, it made it a little easier. Now this is what I call a challenge. IL2 original with upgrades. Can't wait to get home and climb back into Me 109G

IL2 Original with upgrades?

You mean IL2:1946 patched to v4.08 or IL2 pre-FB patched to v1.2?

You may have another big leap to take.

han freak solo
10-26-2007, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Can Ai be told to attack our target if padlock isn't on?
For instance on "realistic" settings?

For ground targets (and air targets somewhat), you can control the AI without padlock. You can't do it item by item, it's a general "let loose" command. However, you have to get your flight AI within perhaps 5 km of the ground target then give them the series of commands necessary. If out of AI range of "recognition" the AI always responds "unable". Before you let the AI loose you have to keep 'em tight with you by issuing many "rejoin" commands. Otherwise the AI run amok.

I do have to investigate this padlock thing though. I haven't used it since European Air War.

BrotherVoodoo
10-26-2007, 05:27 PM
I really dislike using the term "full real" because, after all, this is just a sim

I agree, and personally prefer the term "full switch".

Choctaw111
10-26-2007, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I really dislike using the term "full real" because, after all, this is just a sim

Oh! for crying out loud, how many times do we have to hear this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif . Put on a 3D helmet and it's as real as it gets.
Full Real is the term used for the most realisitic settings in all PC games and we all know it doesn't apply to REAL LIFE... must we plod more on this PEDANTIC route.

And yes it's really great - 4 years down the tracks and still enjoying it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely LOVE full switch...and the "full real" thing is just an opinion, just like any one else might have http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif When you are shot at for real, and then experience it in a game, it is hard for me to call it "full real" regardless of settings.

LW_lcarp
10-26-2007, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:

You know it took me 5 years to discover that if I want the AI to attack a target I have to padlock it and tell them to attack my target. I was really bitc#ing about the AI in here because they would be so flakey.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Just goes to show.

How did you get an F16 into IL2 something you not telling us bearcat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Simulated real is a more precise term to all switches right.

Stiletto-
10-26-2007, 09:43 PM
If you have decent enough hardware and a quality monitor, there is no need for icons, as plane identiciation is done fairly easily, especially when you know the default skin colors. I'm thinking alot of people are still playing games on their grandma's 17 inch monitor.

han freak solo
10-26-2007, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Stiletto-:
I'm thinking alot of people are still playing games on their grandma's 17 inch monitor.

Bingo! 17" CRT here. My only flat wide screen is on my laptop. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

FoxThree
10-26-2007, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by BrotherVoodoo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I really dislike using the term "full real" because, after all, this is just a sim

I agree, and personally prefer the term "full switch". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Full switch is a more accurate description IMHO. Also PL would be more "realsitic" locked in the pit than a thumb onna hat. Again JMHO.

Cheers

mortoma
10-27-2007, 10:36 AM
I have never flown "full switch" and don't care who knows it. I do fly the settings that make the aircraft have the most difficult flight model, which is all that counts. But I don't have the time in a day to chase down a black speck only to find it's a friendly aircraft!! This is why I put in "icons" and some other things. I have it so I can keep icons off but switch them on when necessary to ID a plane.

And even though I'm a real pilot that is superb at pilotage style navigation, I use minimap path and map icons. Why?? Because I don't have time to take three hours flying a mission. I only fly about a half hour per day!!

And besides, if you fly offline Dgen campaigns, if you fly full switch you are actually less realistic!! There is a setting called "No instant success", which if you switch on you will have to refly missions over and over until you get them right. This is not realistic since in real life, if a mission was to bomb a bridge, they could not go back to the same day and time ( in a time machine ) and try it again if the mission failed. So I have to leave this setting unswitched regardless. It's too unrealistic!! Now to go back the next day on a different and new mission to try and bomb the bridge again, this might be better. But this setting does not accomplish this.

Here are the only "If you have balls" settings:

Complex Engine Management
Engine Overheat
Torque & Gyro Effects
Flutter Effect
Wind & Turbulence
Stalls & Spins
Vulnerability
Blackouts & Redouts
Realistic Gunnery
Limited Ammo
Limited Fuel
Cockpit Always On
Head Shake
No Padlock
Takeoff & Landing
Realistic Landings

The rest are just preferences and you are no less a man ( or woman, since we have some in the community ) if you don't switch them on and I don't care what anybody thinks. I fly the ones that matter.

mortoma
10-27-2007, 10:47 AM
Here are the other settings that you are not less of a man if you don't switch and the reasons why in parentheses:

Separate Engine Start ( I usually switch this but am I more manly if I start two engines instead of one?? )

No External Views ( I like to see myself flyby for the dramatic effect, now if I use it to check six, shame on Mortoma! )

No Icons ( Already went over justification for this in previous post. Got any questions?? )

Clouds ( Ahem, This happens to reduce my frames substantially. I'm more of a man if I like sucky frames? )

No Instant Success ( Already explained in previous post )

No Map Icons ( Explained already )

No Minimap Path ( Explained already )

No speed Bar ( It makes me a wuss if I can't read the tiny instruments on my small monitor set at not-so-great resolution?? Besides this, in many planes you have to scroll down to read important instruments even if you can read them. If they had a "speedbar" in a real plane would you use it?? I would, they call it a glass cockpit. But the planes I have flown are too old to have them. Nuff said on this one. )

mortoma
10-27-2007, 10:52 AM
I have been on these forums for a long time and few things make me sicker that the "I'm a big man on a high horse" attitude because I fly full switch. Good for you. Please stop yer braggin' would ya??

Bearcat99
10-27-2007, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Can Ai be told to attack our target if padlock isn't on?
For instance on "realistic" settings?

I dont think so... too often I have had a bandit on my 6 and I do a F7, F3 1-F7, 1-F3... and more often than not my wingman will roll off and attack some other fighter any other fighter but the one that is blasting away at me. All this after saying "This is two... rioger I got you covered..." I have tracks...


Originally posted by LW_lcarp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:

You know it took me 5 years to discover that if I want the AI to attack a target I have to padlock it and tell them to attack my target. I was really bitc#ing about the AI in here because they would be so flakey.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Just goes to show.

How did you get an F16 into IL2 something you not telling us bearcat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Simulated real is a more precise term to all switches right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

F-16? Who said anything about an F-16? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Divine-Wind
10-27-2007, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
And even though I'm a real pilot that is superb at pilotage style navigation, I use minimap path and map icons. Why?? Because I don't have time to take three hours flying a mission. I only fly about a half hour per day!!

And besides, if you fly offline Dgen campaigns, if you fly full switch you are actually less realistic!! There is a setting called "No instant success", which if you switch on you will have to refly missions over and over until you get them right. This is not realistic since in real life, if a mission was to bomb a bridge, they could not go back to the same day and time ( in a time machine ) and try it again if the mission failed. So I have to leave this setting unswitched regardless. It's too unrealistic!! Now to go back the next day on a different and new mission to try and bomb the bridge again, this might be better. But this setting does not accomplish this.

Here are the only "If you have balls" settings:

Complex Engine Management
Engine Overheat
Torque & Gyro Effects
Flutter Effect
Wind & Turbulence
Stalls & Spins
Vulnerability
Blackouts & Redouts
Realistic Gunnery
Limited Ammo
Limited Fuel
Cockpit Always On
Head Shake
No Padlock
Takeoff & Landing
Realistic Landings

The rest are just preferences and you are no less a man ( or woman, since we have some in the community ) if you don't switch them on and I don't care what anybody thinks. I fly the ones that matter.
I've got just about the same settings here. I mean honestly, do they expect us to believe real pilots wouldn't have marked out their routes with a grease pencil?

Although I've been flying my missions with Unlimited Ammo lately, since the Gladiator/109Z don't exactly have the largest ammo stores.

SeaFireLIV
10-27-2007, 11:15 AM
You have to have PADLOCK on for `Attack my target!` to work.

Without palock, you must then try `help`, `attack fighters` or `cover me!` Which have various levels of success, depending on the situation.

As for the realism vs not argument, I can`t be bothered to engage.

buzzsaw1939
10-27-2007, 12:30 PM
I don't think any of us that have real time expierence need to be reminded that its a sim, I mean come on! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Like mortoma says, there is some things that are ridiculous, what I call arcade, and can't really enjoy myself if I use them, every time I see some one getting upset when this comes up, I'm seeing someone who learned to fly in a sim, and doesn't like his fantasy disturbed.

I could make a list to fill this page on things that aren't realistic, I live with it, like the rest of us do, heres one I haven't seen any body mention: when you put flaps down, your cg moves forward, and pitches your nose up, when you trim nose down, you have a better attitude at approach speed: not in here! you guys who haven't noticed it, go try it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'm still in the habbit of makeing low approaches, (old bush pilot thing) makes for a blind landing in here, not realistic! oh well!

I've never mentioned it here, but I get a real chuckle when I see some sim ace "thumping his chest" and spouting rl facts, and getting upset when you remind them it's a sim.

Full settings turn it into a game for me, I got this sim to fly and shoot stuff! end of story!

The buzz

mortoma
10-27-2007, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Divine-Wind:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
And even though I'm a real pilot that is superb at pilotage style navigation, I use minimap path and map icons. Why?? Because I don't have time to take three hours flying a mission. I only fly about a half hour per day!!

And besides, if you fly offline Dgen campaigns, if you fly full switch you are actually less realistic!! There is a setting called "No instant success", which if you switch on you will have to refly missions over and over until you get them right. This is not realistic since in real life, if a mission was to bomb a bridge, they could not go back to the same day and time ( in a time machine ) and try it again if the mission failed. So I have to leave this setting unswitched regardless. It's too unrealistic!! Now to go back the next day on a different and new mission to try and bomb the bridge again, this might be better. But this setting does not accomplish this.

Here are the only "If you have balls" settings:

Complex Engine Management
Engine Overheat
Torque & Gyro Effects
Flutter Effect
Wind & Turbulence
Stalls & Spins
Vulnerability
Blackouts & Redouts
Realistic Gunnery
Limited Ammo
Limited Fuel
Cockpit Always On
Head Shake
No Padlock
Takeoff & Landing
Realistic Landings

The rest are just preferences and you are no less a man ( or woman, since we have some in the community ) if you don't switch them on and I don't care what anybody thinks. I fly the ones that matter.
I've got just about the same settings here. I mean honestly, do they expect us to believe real pilots wouldn't have marked out their routes with a grease pencil?

Although I've been flying my missions with Unlimited Ammo lately, since the Gladiator/109Z don't exactly have the largest ammo stores. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Flying with unlimtied ammo is nothing to be ashamed of. It's a game and you "play" games. It's only a sim, so you set the settings to whichever way suits your fancy. There have been a few times I fly unlimited fuel, there are a few hickups in Dgen that sometimes make this necessary. Flying the Singapore campaign in a short range Hurricane is one good example. You are tasked with flying a Hurri well beyond it's range at times and would otherwise run out of fuel!!! Not my fault that Dgen has some faults!!

han freak solo
10-27-2007, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
I got this sim to fly and shoot stuff! end of story!

The buzz

The ammo sure is affordable! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

buzzsaw1939
10-27-2007, 07:27 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

buzzsaw1939
10-28-2007, 10:56 AM
BTW... What command do you use to tell the AI to not run into you on the parking ramp after a successful mission? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

han freak solo
10-28-2007, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
BTW... What command do you use to tell the AI to not run into you on the parking ramp after a successful mission? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I don't know. Luckily that has only happened to me maybe twice. Perhaps if I made it back to base more often, it would happen to me more often. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

I have learned not to park next to parked AI if the remaining active AI haven't finished parking.

SeaFireLIV
10-28-2007, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
BTW... What command do you use to tell the AI to not run into you on the parking ramp after a successful mission? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

There isn`t one.

But like han freak solo, just use a bit of common sense and park away from a spot where the AI is lined up. I usually park on the space slightly off the parking spot cos i`m pretty sure they won`t run into me.

Von_Rat
10-28-2007, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Stiletto-:
If you have decent enough hardware and a quality monitor, there is no need for icons, as plane identiciation is done fairly easily, especially when you know the default skin colors. I'm thinking alot of people are still playing games on their grandma's 17 inch monitor.

npoe, i have a very expensive 22 inch monitor, and i cant id planes at any distance at all.

the problem is that i have grandmas eyes. except grandma wasnt color blind like me. lol.



another factor is that in order to spot the dots i have to play in low res. which doesnt help id ing planes any.

BlitzPig_DDT
10-28-2007, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stiletto-:
If you have decent enough hardware and a quality monitor, there is no need for icons, as plane identiciation is done fairly easily, especially when you know the default skin colors. I'm thinking alot of people are still playing games on their grandma's 17 inch monitor.

npoe, i have a very expensive 22 inch monitor, and i cant id planes at any distance at all.

the problem is that i have grandmas eyes. except grandma wasnt color blind like me. lol.



another factor is that in order to spot the dots i have to play in low res. which doesnt help id ing planes any. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. It's hardly more "realistic" to fly around half blind just so you can puff up your chest about not using "aids". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

msalama
10-28-2007, 12:13 PM
I'm thinking alot of people are still playing games on their grandma's 17 inch monitor.

I used to do that until the feeker breaking down 3 days ago. Now, being temporarily in a money's-too-tight-to-mention condition, I'm flying w/ a 14" Dell monitor made in 1991! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Howzzat for lo-tek guys??? And oh, IL-2 _is_ actually flyable w/ a 640x480 resolution, BTW... which is just excellent b/c this mofo don't support anything higher http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

But I digress... well as regards settings, I fly full switch w/ externals on when I'm hosting. I don't use external views for manouvering or flying, but I've found that it's actually nice to watch the action after you get your arse handed to you, so that's why http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Personal preferences only, yours may vary of course...

buzzsaw1939
10-28-2007, 12:27 PM
I like the term full switch, it fits better, I also use the term AS, instead of AI, for artificialy stupid! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

And thanks for the tip on the padlock, it makes a difference, and I don't have to wait 5 years!

polak5
10-28-2007, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Also, without internal padlock, you loose the ability to effectivly command the ai, as you cannot define individual targets without it.
just my two cents!
cheers fruitbat

You know it took me 5 years to discover that if I want the AI to attack a target I have to padlock it and tell them to attack my target. I was really bitc#ing about the AI in here because they would be so flakey.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Just goes to show. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is news to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif lol. Soo whats the padlock key f8?
always wondered myself why they wer like that

BlitzPig_DDT
10-29-2007, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by polak5:
This is news to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif lol. Soo whats the padlock key f8?
always wondered myself why they wer like that

Default enemry air padlock is F4 (IIRC), and enemy ground padlock is F5.

There is also a friendly air padlock, but I don't recall what it is.

However, the default keys don't matter much, just go in and make it whatever you want it to be. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

T_O_A_D
10-29-2007, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by han freak solo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
I got this sim to fly and shoot stuff! end of story!

The buzz

The ammo sure is affordable! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So is the Gas, can you imagine, how broke we would be, by now. Well most of us would had to quit years ago. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

waffen-79
10-29-2007, 10:32 AM
I'm recently being flying on "Spit vs 109's" and it's a blast, real fun, that is, because I fly with squad mates, otherwise it's just suicidal and a complete waste of time.

But my first choise are servers like, Skies of Valor, they're almost full-switch, except for externals and icons.

Icons, I can give that up, but externals...I like seeing my plane flying, and also get the dramatic effect, besides I make skins for the planes I fly, further more, I like the mission distances medium, don't have time to be flying 15min+ sorties.

so, all in all, the correct term should be "full-switch"

flyby_99th
10-29-2007, 05:49 PM
full real = full switch = full difficulty in my book. Full real is not real life. you want real life then join somebody's air force, and hope to fly real combat one day. But for flying online, I think the least we can do is to fly "full real" to pay a bit of homage to those who really did fly combat, and offer their lives up to the gods of war. Also, flying full real seems to promote a bit of team work (along with comms).
Flyby out

JG6_Oddball
10-29-2007, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I really dislike using the term "full real" because, after all, this is just a sim

Oh! for crying out loud, how many times do we have to hear this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif . Put on a 3D helmet and it's as real as it gets.
Full Real is the term used for the most realisitic settings in all PC games and we all know it doesn't apply to REAL LIFE... must we plod more on this PEDANTIC route.

And yes it's really great - 4 years down the tracks and still enjoying it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is NOT "full real" because it's actually LESS realistic. But full switch guys want to beat their chest too hard to accept that.

You have - a small window into the world, poor resolution compared to reality (no matter what your settings are), constrained FoV, 2D mimicing 3D, inability to see to realistic distances, and on it goes. Padlock actually ADDs realism (I know that's gonna set people off, lol). Icons help too IF configured well - not only for the aforementioned, but also to compensate for lack of briefings, flight plans, team coordination, and ground radio support.

Lock yourself in the pit, leave PL on, tweak icons and dot distances, turn off map path and leave Speed Bar on (goes back to the aforementioned issues, you can not see the gauges at their proper size or with proper ease in this game, thus the speed bar compensates), put the rest of the switches on and THEN you can call it "Full Real".

But full switch is not "full real". Simply no 2 ways around it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

could not have said it better myself DDT http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

S!

SeaFireLIV
10-29-2007, 06:31 PM
Yes, it`s not Full Real cos then you have `NoInstant mission success` for a start which means you cannot progress if you don`t complete the mission - unrealistic.

Padlock, well we don`t take padlock off to `beat our chests` we take padlock off because there are OTHER BETTER means to get your SA, ie, the mouse and TIR.

I dunno why people think that they`re so clever and we`re so stupid that we cannot tell the difference between `realistic` and `not realistic`.

BlitzPig_DDT
10-29-2007, 08:58 PM
PL tracking is much more akin to following something with your head and eyes. Mice, microsticks (which I use on my Cougar), hat-switches, and even TiR don't compare. Thus the need for something to compensate for an interface induced lack.

The thing is, I'd beleive you that it wasn't about being "macho", and even that TiR was some sort of advantage, IF.... PL was left on as an option. It's use is not required. But instead people turn it off so nobody has the option.

Now really, if PL is inferior to TiR, why the need to strip other people of it? Instead, the TiR tide has taken over online and people turn it off to enforce it's use (all but).

PL really is in the same category of black and redouts - it's a way to work around interface limitations (aka, the PC - keyboard, mouse, monitor, joystick and TiR) and provide a more simulative experience.

SeaFireLIV
10-29-2007, 09:10 PM
I have no problems with someone keeping padlock as long as I can have my TIR or mouse, which I find much better. Padlock is fine for single encounters and if you`re quick with the button maybe more, but a mouse or TIR enables total constant searching of a target rich environment in a very natural (with TIR) way. And you`ll never get stuck on the wrong taget at the wrong moment. And it frees up extra keys too.

As for why it`s disabled on servers, i don`t know. I do know that I tried padlock while using TIR (to target AI on ground targets) and it was annoying because it took over TIR and wouldn`t let go.

Anyway, padlock is not a freedom or even realistic in my view, it`s like wearing blinkers and is actually a crutch. If I had no TIR I`d be back on a mouse.

stalkervision
10-29-2007, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Also, without internal padlock, you loose the ability to effectivly command the ai, as you cannot define individual targets without it.
just my two cents!
cheers fruitbat

You know it took me 5 years to discover that if I want the AI to attack a target I have to padlock it and tell them to attack my target. I was really bitc#ing about the AI in here because they would be so flakey.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Just goes to show. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's too funny.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Feathered_IV
10-30-2007, 03:45 AM
servers like, Skies of Valor, they're almost full-switch, except for externals and icons.

Icons, I can give that up, but externals...I like seeing my plane flying, and also get the dramatic effect, besides I make skins for the planes I fly, further more, I like the mission distances medium, don't have time to be flying 15min+ sorties

Full switch is the best by far. Such a shame that so few take the time to get into it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Hkuusela
10-30-2007, 04:31 AM
I've never understood how you can fly without map icons or minimap path, at least offline. I mean, do the real pilots really get an order "fly over there, kill something and come back"? No routes, no altitudes, no nothing? I don't think so.

muchaclopiec
10-30-2007, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
only applies for online.

offline its somewhat less than real. No instant success, is the one switch that turns this more into a game, than any other switch. It does this by effectively makeing offline missions 'levels'.



cheers fruitbat

Ive never really understood the concept of "No Instant Success"...what does it mean?

han freak solo
10-30-2007, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by muchaclopiec:
Ive never really understood the concept of "No Instant Success"...what does it mean?

If it is clicked "on" you have to accomplish mission goals, whether it be to reach certain waypoints, take out certain targets, and return to home base somewhat on the runway. (Even if you belly land on the runway at home base, you might not be in the correct spot to get a completed mission.)

Also, it doesn't take into account bailing out over freindly territory or if you miss a target that the mission decided was needed to progress on to the next mission. If you don't meet the mission goals, you have to refly the mission. (Over, and over, and over . . . )

That's why most people here don't like to click it on. In real life, as long as you got back to base in one piece and healthy, odds were you were going to fly another combat mission.

BlitzPig_DDT
10-30-2007, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I have no problems with someone keeping padlock as long as I can have my TIR or mouse, which I find much better. Padlock is fine for single encounters and if you`re quick with the button maybe more, but a mouse or TIR enables total constant searching of a target rich environment in a very natural (with TIR) way. And you`ll never get stuck on the wrong taget at the wrong moment. And it frees up extra keys too.

As for why it`s disabled on servers, i don`t know. I do know that I tried padlock while using TIR (to target AI on ground targets) and it was annoying because it took over TIR and wouldn`t let go.

Anyway, padlock is not a freedom or even realistic in my view, it`s like wearing blinkers and is actually a crutch. If I had no TIR I`d be back on a mouse.

TiR is not realistic. You move your head a fraction to look over your shoulder, while looking back in the opposite direction with your eyes.

It's nothing more than a novel way to control the mouse. Which is itself not realistic.

In fact, the closest thing to natural (and therefore realistic) head tracking is Oleg's padlock view. (both in terms of how it moves, and the fact that it breaks when targets fly out of sight (be they obscured by canopy framing, clouds, mountains, other aircraft, or the pilot's own aircraft), and it's range of movement is limited to how a person could move his head.

It's not perfect. But nothing is, short of a mock cockpit inside of a dome screen.

It's also a skill. You've hinted at the fact that it's easy to get messed up while using it.

One thing it's not is a crutch. I have a TM Cougar HOTAS. It has a micro-joystick on the throttle. I map that to mouse control and use that to pan around in flight while searching for targets and landing and so on. A skill unto itself. In combat, I do like to use PL to supplement this to track targets. Given the option, I always will. However..... I fly in no PL servers just as often too, and I do just fine there despite the inconvenience.

Krt_Bong
10-30-2007, 02:56 PM
Wow, I tried Absolute Full Real (found in hidden settings in config) I was killed! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

EDCF_Rama
10-30-2007, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Hkuusela:
I've never understood how you can fly without map icons or minimap path, at least offline. I mean, do the real pilots really get an order "fly over there, kill something and come back"? No routes, no altitudes, no nothing? I don't think so.

it's easy to understand.
Print your paper map, trace your route on, and use your paper map and what you see on the screen to do your navigation, go to the target, complete your duty and navigate back to base.

Much more immersive IMHO than map icon and minimap path.
But everybody plays the way he likes

EDCF_Rama
10-30-2007, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
TiR is not realistic. You move your head a fraction to look over your shoulder, while looking back in the opposite direction with your eyes.


Have you used it?
To me TiR is perfectly natural now I'm used to... and I never stop it, even when firing.
It free you from any view control with your fingers (which is actually what everybody wants in a viewving system IMO), which seems perfectly "realistic" to me.... even if the screen stays too small.

I would not change TiR for anything else.... just a wider screen would be better.

stalkervision
10-30-2007, 04:38 PM
The game will never be even a mile close to 100% real. Seeing planes in a extream distance like all very good fighter pilots were able to do isn't even possible as in real life because of simware and moniter limitations. This was a MAJOR factor in aircombat success in ww2! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
10-30-2007, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
TiR is not realistic. You move your head a fraction to look over your shoulder, while looking back in the opposite direction with your eyes.


Have you used it?
To me TiR is perfectly natural now I'm used to... and I never stop it, even when firing.
It free you from any view control with your fingers (which is actually what everybody wants in a viewving system IMO), which seems perfectly "realistic" to me.... even if the screen stays too small.

I would not change TiR for anything else.... just a wider screen would be better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um.... when I look over my shoulder, my head and eyes turn in the same direction and I can no longer see what's in front of me (ie, the screen). TiR doesn't provide this range. Instead, you must use your head as a joystick. You could do the same with your fingers (hat/microstick), your hand (mouse), or even your feet if you really wanted to (and didn't have them occupied by rudder pedals).

It's still a work around, and thus, still not realistic.

The point I'm making is that people hat PL but praise TiR as some sort of "realistic" control device. It's not. At most, you could classify them as basically the same thing - a means to control the view in the game, and an attempt to compensate for limitations in the interface.

But that also means, when you read it the other way, that PL is no LESS realistic than TiR. (and given that you don't have to move your head in odd ways it can still be argued to be more realistic)

MrMojok
10-30-2007, 05:00 PM
I tried, and tried, and TRIED, for two years, to find a hatswitch-control setup that worked for me. But I was just never much good at thumbing around.

I don't think I could fly anymore without TiR.

Oh, and my flaps on the slider.

han freak solo
10-30-2007, 05:37 PM
Realistic or not, TrackIr is great. I've only got the old version 2 and once I got used to it long ago, I couldn't imagine having as much sim fun without it.

I like the fact I can track a target, get behind it, check for other enemies, shoot, track, check enemies, shoot, etc., all without hitting keys for padlocking. Plus, I can instantly track another target without changing any padlock commands. That's a great thing when you're in a furball.

My old TrackIr 2 does equal mouse control, but it frees up a hand and is easier for me. If I had a current TrackIr with 6DOF and a game that supported it, it would be better than mouse control.

Bearcat99
10-30-2007, 06:40 PM
IMO the term "Full Real" is bogus. How do you keep track of your friends in a server with no icons? I remember once when we were flying without icons, which we do on occasion... and someone yelled... "Redtail Mustang break right there's a bandit on your six!!"... and every Redtail Mustang that I saw from my chute broke right. IRL from all the pilot accounts I have read and heard personally aircraft recognition as far as friendlies go was better than it is in the sim.. I prefer to fly with tight icons... F & E set to below 1K... I use .9 for F & .7 for E... Dots @ 40-50... range @ .5 or >, name on E is @ .1.. on F it is @ .8.. I set it so that it is just beyond what you can see in the sim.. but not so far out that you can see numers floating when the planes are more than 1K out... To me that is better.. and since I fly this sim not to prove anything to anyone but to have fun... I prefer that. Some of the other settings like PL .. although I like it I can do without... minimap path I think is a good thing...

The beauty of this sim and most others.. since even the worst of the lot are scalable to some extent ... but this one in particular.. is that these settings are set server side... so at least for now to some extent... you don't have one guy flying open pit with all icons trying to fly against someone who is flying in a closed pit with nothing..


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Um.... when I look over my shoulder, my head and eyes turn in the same direction and I can no longer see what's in front of me (ie, the screen). TiR doesn't provide this range. Instead, you must use your head as a joystick. You could do the same with your fingers (hat/microstick), your hand (mouse), or even your feet if you really wanted to (and didn't have them occupied by rudder pedals).

It's still a work around, and thus, still not realistic.

The point I'm making is that people hat PL but praise TiR as some sort of "realistic" control device. It's not. At most, you could classify them as basically the same thing - a means to control the view in the game, and an attempt to compensate for limitations in the interface.

But that also means, when you read it the other way, that PL is no LESS realistic than TiR. (and given that you don't have to move your head in odd ways it can still be argued to be more realistic)

Yes but the difference between TIR & padlock is that you have to work more with TIR... With Padlock you don't have to maintain tally.. the PC does it for you... with TIR you must keep the bandit in sight... There are merits for both... but IMO TIR is more immersive... and I hate the term "realistic" anyway... when I can feel Gs.. then we can talk "real" talk because of course the refly button takes all that out.. but untill then it is all immersion.. and immersion like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

buzzsaw1939
10-30-2007, 07:01 PM
"when I can feel Gs..then we can talk "Real" talk".

Right on! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Wepps
10-30-2007, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
"when I can feel Gs..then we can talk "Real" talk".

Right on! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

True, but if you could feel the Gs, then you wouldn't have 'full real', you'd have super-real.

The problem here is that 100% realism in this sim is much more difficult than real life. Many of the things that you must do to survive out there are a pain in the ***, whereas in real life they are simply a matter of thinking about it.

For example, scanning the skies. I have never gotten used to panning around in IL-2 and looking for enemy. If it were real life, I'd just...look. Ya know?

Removing padlock, then, is not increased realism. It's unreal super-difficulty. In real life I'd lock onto that sucker until I couldn't see him anymore. That's padlock. That's real.

NOT feeling the Gs, I've flown into the ground more times than I'd like to admit.

Flying to me, in real life, is at its basic level, a very simple thing to do and quite natural. In IL-2 you have to do unnatural things to survive simple maneuvers.

Things should be added to 'full realism' in IL-2...to make it easier, like real life. Auto-scanning for enemy, for one thing, and being able to program an automated system of doing so. THIS is something a fighter pilot learns in his training. It becomes automatic.

Check-six, for example. How do you do it on 'full real' without breaking formation? In real life, you'd just....look.

Since you can't do these things in IL-2, full-realism is not full realism, it's full difficulty.

buzzsaw1939
10-30-2007, 07:24 PM
Or... Full settings, like we've been saying. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Bearcat99
10-30-2007, 07:54 PM
I hear ya.. but thats what I like about TIR... because with TIR.. and of course the fact that it is not one to one.... meaning a 45 degree turn of the head gives me a 180 degree lookaround... or there abouts... is "unrealistic" but it has to be.. otherwise like DDT said.. how could you see? When I am scanning with TIR it is more immersive than with padlock or a mouse pan.. which I actually like better than padlock.. and more natural.. because I am using my head.. and not my thumb... When I spot something I zoom in on it.. to red my gauges I just look at them and zoon in... when tracking a bandit I have to cconsider his speed and vector when I loose tally... and act accordingly.. I am getting better at keeping tally... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif but it is a challenge... the thing I didnt like about padlock was that I didnt have to look... the PC would just keep track and all I had to do was try to fly right.... which is not a bad thing and still challenging.. AFAIC.. it is all good.... whatever floats your boat.... as long as you can find others who are willing to fly like you do and you all can enjoy it.. I say RIGHT ON!!

stalkervision
10-30-2007, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
IMO the term "Full Real" is bogus. How do you keep track of your friends in a server with no icons? I remember once when we were flying without icons, which we do on occasion... and someone yelled... "Redtail Mustang break right there's a bandit on your six!!"... and every Redtail Mustang that I saw from my chute broke right. IRL from all the pilot accounts I have read and heard personally aircraft recognition as far as friendlies go was better than it is in the sim.. I prefer to fly with tight icons... F & E set to below 1K... I use .9 for F & .7 for E... Dots @ 40-50... range @ .5 or >, name on E is @ .1.. on F it is @ .8.. I set it so that it is just beyond what you can see in the sim.. but not so far out that you can see numers floating when the planes are more than 1K out... To me that is better.. and since I fly this sim not to prove anything to anyone but to have fun... I prefer that. Some of the other settings like PL .. although I like it I can do without... minimap path I think is a good thing...

The beauty of this sim and most others.. since even the worst of the lot are scalable to some extent ... but this one in particular.. is that these settings are set server side... so at least for now to some extent... you don't have one guy flying open pit with all icons trying to fly against someone who is flying in a closed pit with nothing..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Um.... when I look over my shoulder, my head and eyes turn in the same direction and I can no longer see what's in front of me (ie, the screen). TiR doesn't provide this range. Instead, you must use your head as a joystick. You could do the same with your fingers (hat/microstick), your hand (mouse), or even your feet if you really wanted to (and didn't have them occupied by rudder pedals).

It's still a work around, and thus, still not realistic.

The point I'm making is that people hat PL but praise TiR as some sort of "realistic" control device. It's not. At most, you could classify them as basically the same thing - a means to control the view in the game, and an attempt to compensate for limitations in the interface.

But that also means, when you read it the other way, that PL is no LESS realistic than TiR. (and given that you don't have to move your head in odd ways it can still be argued to be more realistic)

Yes but the difference between TIR & padlock is that you have to work more with TIR... With Padlock you don't have to maintain tally.. the PC does it for you... with TIR you must keep the bandit in sight... There are merits for both... but IMO TIR is more immersive... and I hate the term "realistic" anyway... when I can feel Gs.. then we can talk "real" talk because of course the refly button takes all that out.. but untill then it is all immersion.. and immersion like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

FoxThree
10-30-2007, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
IMO the term "Full Real" is bogus. >snip<

>snip< ... and I hate the term "realistic" anyway... when I can feel Gs.. then we can talk "real" talk because of course the refly button takes all that out.. but untill then it is all immersion.. and immersion like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Full switch is the more accurate description IMHO. Full real is a term that just got burned into our vernacular. Some habits die hard.

Tir == PL and PL == Tir. Be Sure. I am not convinced I agree on one point you make where in using PL the PC is keeping SA. In RL once you tally you do not take your sights off your enemy and basically fly "blind by the seat of yer pants" instinctively just like the PC is doing while PL'd. Doing this same task via thumb and hat is just a workaround solution.

BlitzPig_DDT
10-30-2007, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I hear ya.. but thats what I like about TIR... because with TIR.. and of course the fact that it is not one to one.... meaning a 45 degree turn of the head gives me a 180 degree lookaround... or there abouts... is "unrealistic" but it has to be.. otherwise like DDT said.. how could you see? When I am scanning with TIR it is more immersive than with padlock or a mouse pan.. which I actually like better than padlock.. and more natural.. because I am using my head.. and not my thumb... When I spot something I zoom in on it.. to red my gauges I just look at them and zoon in... when tracking a bandit I have to cconsider his speed and vector when I loose tally... and act accordingly.. I am getting better at keeping tally... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif but it is a challenge... the thing I didnt like about padlock was that I didnt have to look... the PC would just keep track and all I had to do was try to fly right.... which is not a bad thing and still challenging.. AFAIC.. it is all good.... whatever floats your boat.... as long as you can find others who are willing to fly like you do and you all can enjoy it.. I say RIGHT ON!!

I see your point. However, you're basically espousing the skill required with using TiR, and claiming that PL doesn't require the same skill.

And, technically, to the letter, that's accurate, because it's not the exact same skill, it's a different skill. But a skill none-the-less.

Most people will tell you that they get disoriented and auger in while in PL. And they find it a challenge to use.

Yet those same people also claim that it gives "cheat" level ability to people, and it simply does NOT.

PL does not track targets you can't see - dot ranges are FAR longer and I ALWAYS see and track the dot manually long before PL locks. If long icons are on, they show up before PL locks. If no icons are on, PL will lock on anything, give no indication of friend or foe, and cause just as much confusion. If you are in a see of contacts, it takes skill to make PL lock onto the one you want, arguably, that's _easier_ with TiR. PL will not track through clouds, mountains, canopy framing, your own aircraft, or other aircraft - I can not tell you how many times I've lost lock in canopy framing. It will track a vector, but of the target stays hidden or doubles back you lose lock. If the target goes too high, PL will seek back and forth and be more trouble than it's worth.

To get the most out of PL requires a skill, JUST like TiR, 'cept that it's a different skill, but the level is the same. And, unlike TiR, it's a blended skill as you must have other means to track targets before and after locks (it won't keep SA on sweeps or checking 6, you have to do that yourself). So it's actually a multi-skill and people who are good can operate in no-PL servers and be successful (such as myself), but we don't like it. lol

So again, logically, since TiR users feel they have an advantage, they should not feel the need to disable PL. And those of us who find it's realism preferable to the alternatives should be able to use it. The trouble is nothing more than a stigma, falsely attributed due to lack of knowledge.

(and I'm not harassing you, I just kind got on a roll there and was making general points)

mike_espo
10-30-2007, 10:22 PM
After playing Zekes vs Wildcats, I can say it is the closese experience-as far as IL2 is concerned-to what I have read in airwar accounts.

Many times in this server, I have been damaged and managed to get home probably because the guy lost sight of me in a cloud or because I was hugging the ground.

Also, I have seen historic tactics really work in full switch, where they will not in arcade servers. Such as seeing the other guy first and maneuverng into a good attack position. When icons are used, it is too easy to spot and maintain tally on the other guy.

just my 2 cents....

ephemere1962
10-31-2007, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
I see your point. However, you're basically espousing the skill required with using TiR, and claiming that PL doesn't require the same skill.
Moreover, after a very short time, the use of the TiR becomes instinct, totally natural, as if you were turning the head for real. (and you don't "feel" you're turning the head in one direction and the eyes in the other, even if you do...)
If you haven't experienced this, either you've never used TiR, or only a very short time.
... something you never gain with PL


And, technically, to the letter, that's accurate, because it's not the exact same skill, it's a different skill. But a skill none-the-less.
Who cares about the "technical"... the important thing is the feel.


Yet those same people also claim that it gives "cheat" level ability to people, and it simply does NOT.

Yes it does. I experimented it offline many time, you can use PL as a "radar", looking in a given direction, and without really looking carrefully (without Zoom), you may "lock" a target even if you don't actually see it. If you repeat this in the 4 cardinal direction, then above and under, you have your radar.
With a TiR, looking in the proper direction isn't enough, often you need zoom to carrefully check, and it takes much more time, and isn't "automatic"... you may allways not see a target, especially if it's low above forest. With PL, you will allways lock it


PL does not track targets you can't see - .../... PL will not track through clouds, mountains, canopy framing, your own aircraft, or other aircraft - I can not tell you how many times I've lost lock in canopy framing.

This is partly wrong. PL will track and keep track through clouds and other aircrafts (easy to experiment offline)
... and it may keep track behind canopy frames and even trhough your own plane if you use "instant forward view" and release it from time to time.
... if you're a "skilled PL user", you know all that, and you know how to keep track of the target even if you don't actually see it.
That's something you'll never can do with TiR.


So again, logically, since TiR users feel they have an advantage, they should not feel the need to disable PL.
I don't use TiR because of the advantage (even if the advantage is real...), but because I feel it more natural and more immersive.

In any case, you're off course free to like any game settings.
My preference goes to full switch... and I only host or enter full switch games. I find every other game boring, as I find offline boring too (except for tests and exercizes)
I can accept speed bar, but I like better without (and it's even better with no hud messages at all)

Feathered_IV
10-31-2007, 04:48 AM
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GIAP.Shura
10-31-2007, 05:01 AM
I think some people aren't being very honest with themselves here. A lot of people are saying, "I don't fly Full Real because I don't need to be macho and claim to fly Full Real because Full Real is not realistic. In actual fact, the settings I like to fly are more realistic and should be called Full Real" *Beats chest*

The reason most people come to call it Full Real is because in the difficulty section of IL-2 you have 3 switches, Easy, Normal and Realistic. A setup simulating reality is either with all of the switches on or with all bar 4 or 5 on, depending on your interpretation of how the sim deals with reality and interface limitations. These setups are closest to those specified as Realistic in IL-2, hence ending up with the terms Full Real, Full Real with icons, etc.

Someone making a big issue about it being called Full Real, Full Switch or Full Difficulty seems to have problems with chest thumping themselves.

Personally, I think in terms of immersion not reality and do what I can to increase immersion. Having a little map with my plane's position marked on it does not increase immersion for me. I know that pilots had to navigate by their maps and the land around them. This requires work and skill and for me there is no immersion in simulating either of those. Having little writing above dots and planes telling me who they are doesn't add immersion for me either, although I find having icons limited to short distances acceptable on df servers but not in an SEOW mission.

I never found either thumbing a hat-switch around nor moving a mouse nor having my view automatically, without any physical control, shift to my 7 high to see a bandit approaching me who I never knew was there, to increase immersion. However, only a few days with TIR increased the immersion for me more than anything else connected to the game, whether that be a switch or a piece of hardware. TIR feels so natural to me that when watching IL-2 videos I will sometimes find myself trying to move the camera view by turning my head. In my opinion you have increased immersion by moving you head to naturally pan your limited view and pick up and keep track of targets using your eyes.

As far as speedbar goes, it is clearly harder, and for some instruments impossible, to read a lot of the instruments in game than in RL. Given that we can't get any awareness of the planes motion from g forces, etc. I think immersion is probably improved with speedbar but sometimes I enjoy flying without it.

No Instant Success is a waste of time.

Of course IL-2 is a sim and we have restrictions on the extent it can represent reality based on, amongst other things, interface limitations, limited views, graphics restrictions, lack of physical feedback and mission structure. Immersion is achieved by either reducing those limitations or by getting around them by using artificial features. Arguing that the second option makes things more "realistic" seems a bit absurd to me.

Find whichever options increase the immersion the most for you and fly with like minded individuals. That is the road to enjoying yourself. To the original poster, I find that Full Real settings offer the most immersion in this sim. It is an increased workload and requires more training but I don't think that flying and navigating a plane, nor spotting or IDing planes and targets was that easy for WWII pilots. Otherwise, we wouldn't have all these stories of pilots getting lost, shooting their own planes or ground troops or getting bounced and shot down.

F19_Orheim
10-31-2007, 05:09 AM
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IE ephemere1962's post!!!!!

PL is a huge advantage with the ability to "lock targets".

And tir per say is not better than e.g mouse view. If you are used to use the mouse for changing views, it can for sure be a lot quicker to change view than with the TIR. A lot of mouserview user who have tried the TIR for a few weeks - months even, have returned to the mouse. Not that TIR doesn't give you a higher degree of immersion - it does - but because they feel the mouse is more accurate and faster.

TIR is not an advantage other than it gives you better immersion.

SeaFireLIV
10-31-2007, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:


And tir per say is not better than e.g mouse view. If you are used to use the mouse for changing views, it can for sure be a lot quicker to change view than with the TIR. A lot of mouserview user who have tried the TIR for a few weeks - months even, have returned to the mouse. Not that TIR doesn't give you a higher degree of immersion - it does - but because they feel the mouse is more accurate and faster.

TIR is not an advantage other than it gives you better immersion.

All I can say is whoever you`ve been talking to has obviously not set up their TIR correctly or given it enough time.

Once you become used to TIR (takes 2 weeks on average) is easily as fast - even faster- than the mouse and more accessible. I can track and look and retrack easily quicker because I`m not having to use the slower hand and I don`t overcompensate.

It`s so natural that I don`t even think about using it. Even when I was good with the Mouse I still had recompensate with it regularly, especially to avoid running out of mouse room. that`s not to say I don`t like my Mouse, it`s a trusty backup all the time.

Just last week I forgot to switch on my TIR and it was one of those `no restart` online missions. I switched to my mouse and proceeded on. I wasn`t great but I did ok. I`ve seen pilots drop out of missions because they`ve gotten so used to TIR and can`t adapt to going back in emergencies. I never like to get so reliant on anything, especially the `greater` it is. This is why the Mouse is never far away. A TIR is expensive to replace. A mouse is cheap.

Same with flying online. I always fly offline too so I don`t get addicted to being online all the while. I can cope when things... change...

Anyway, TIR is easily as good, even better than a mouse.

Philipscdrw
10-31-2007, 05:45 AM
I found it easier to control the view with the hat-switch than to use padlock. Even in a close scissors the hat was fine. And this is an 8-way hat which became a 7-way hat years ago, Down-Left being broken! Now I'm using a TrackIR-1 which is even easier.

Blitzpig_DDT, I don't know why you're talking about when you say "So again, logically, since TiR users feel they have an advantage, they should not feel the need to disable PL." Offline, it makes no difference if PL is on or off, because a TIR user has no reason to use it (except for AI orders). Online, we can only conform to the difficulty settings of our chosen server or war.

Bearcat99
10-31-2007, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:


I see your point. However, you're basically espousing the skill required with using TiR, and claiming that PL doesn't require the same skill.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah.... because you still have to fly the plane.. and that means that the SA point of focus shifts from keeping tally on the bandit to keeping a handle on your AC.... it's all good IMO... I am just pleased that we have so many viewing options with this sim and the overall fidelity of the FMs has been such that it becomes a challenge to do either...


After playing Zekes vs Wildcats, I can say it is the closese experience-as far as IL2 is concerned-to what I have read in airwar accounts.

Many times in this server, I have been damaged and managed to get home probably because the guy lost sight of me in a cloud or because I was hugging the ground.

Also, I have seen historic tactics really work in full switch, where they will not in arcade servers. Such as seeing the other guy first and maneuverng into a good attack position. When icons are used, it is too easy to spot and maintain tally on the other guy.
just my 2 cents....


Yes but how can you work really well as a team if you cant tell who is who..on your side?

Thats my main beef with the full no icons... but I think the tight icons solves a lot of some of the issues you and I both raise. In our servers, and mind you 99th_Patches who hosts the majority of our coops uses our old dotrange settings... like the ones above.. on my personal PC I have tightened up everything even more trying to find that sweet spot between reasonably realistic visibility and practicality... I like to run MM on my QMs because, especially the first time you run it... you don't really know where the bogies will be.. and I have a few MMQMs that have the bandits down low.. and on some of them.. if you aren't looking.. you will miss them because the icons are so tight.

I also don't think PL is a cheat feature... if for no other reason than if it is set on the server then all the players have the option to use it... so if one player chooses not to use it and another does... then it isn't not a cheat.. just an option that the other player chose not to use. I think one of the strongest, most under looked aspects of this sim aside from it's until recently locked code for online play is the fact that the difficulty settings are done on the server side so you don't have a situation like in other sims where you can each set it up how you want... so often you would have one guy flying with an open pit and another not... and the fact that things like icons (take that silly radar screen in CFS for instance) are not up to the individual but the host.. so you know going in what to expect and everyone is on a relatively equal playing field as far as that goes....

Lastly.. like I said above.. for me mouse view is the next best thing to tir... but padlock has it's place... I always used my mouse pan on the thumb button of my HOTAS... since for me with a HOTAS adding a mouse to the mix any other way was just not an option.

SeaFireLIV
10-31-2007, 06:47 AM
I respect someone who stands their ground on their view. But I lose respect for that person when he takes up a donkey-like resistance due to ignorance and refusing all the evidence put to him. Especially since you`ve never used TIR.

I`ll explain one last time.




Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Um.... when I look over my shoulder, my head and eyes turn in the same direction and I can no longer see what's in front of me (ie, the screen). TiR doesn't provide this range. Instead, you must use your head as a joystick. You could do the same with your fingers (hat/microstick), your hand (mouse), or even your feet if you really wanted to (and didn't have them occupied by rudder pedals).

It's still a work around, and thus, still not realistic.


It`s far more realistic than using padlock. I`ll break it down for ease of understanding.

1. You are matching the action of real life pilots. You move your head to look. Some set TIR so they move their head a lot, some a little. But the head moves in the corresponding direction to see. It may not be all the way up. or down or left or right, but it is as much as our monitor will allow. the eyes also move somewhat in the corresponding direction, ie towards the LEFT of the screen as the head turns left. The cone of view is always moving.

It`s following the moves a real fighter pilot would make except reduced down to fit a moniter. The fact that it mimics reality is proven in that after you first use TIR for the first few days your neck actually HURTS a little (or feels strained).

2. The hands are completely freed up. 2 joysticks (or joystick and keyboard setup) can be used to represent controls of the real aircraft.)

3. The immersion facter. You actually get a `sense` of how real pilots viewed their world. the sky seems much bigger all of a sudden. When flying in formation you look left and right to your buddies using the head and it`s so easy, so natural you can almost feel you`re there.

When a 109 swoops by on your 5 high, you don`t even know you`ve just looked 5 high because it`s so natural. You didn`t artificially track it with a padlock, your HEAD did the tracking to it. At the same time you`re pulling gs and manouevering for the kill.

Using a mouse or padlock to do this feels like gaming the game. You`re reminded you are not really looking, but playing. It`s the immersion that brings TIR up as feeling realistic and FAR more realistic than padlock. With padlock it`s a game, with TIR it`s immersion, it feels way more real.


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
The point I'm making is that people hat PL but praise TiR as some sort of "realistic" control device. It's not.

It is. I`ve tried to explain. It may not be real, but it is realistic as much as can be on a 2D moniter.


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:At
most, you could classify them as basically the same thing - a means to control the view in the game, and an attempt to compensate for limitations in the interface.

That`s what TIR was designed to do, as WELL as being more realistic. Padlock and TIR were not designed to do the same thing though. Padlock was designed to allow you to track a target - that`s it. TIR is designed to allow you to track a target FREELY, look around and enjoy a view as closely as possible as to how it would`ve been done in reality.

With Padlock you `fix` and you track.

With TIR, you look all round in your world. You track what you want when you want. You don`t even have to be in combat, just enjoy the `realistic` morning dawn enroute to target. You can seamlessly go from peace to war.



Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
But that also means, when you read it the other way, that PL is no LESS realistic than TiR. (and given that you don't have to move your head in odd ways it can still be argued to be more realistic)

Yea, but this was going under previous wrong assumptions you made about TIR. I advise trying TIR first before fighting it so much.

I would bet if you had TIR to try for a week or so, you`d be back here to say, "I was wrong."

Blast. This went on longer than I wanted it to.

Von_Rat
10-31-2007, 06:52 AM
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Feathered_IV
10-31-2007, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
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And tir per say is not better than e.g mouse view. If you are used to use the mouse for changing views, it can for sure be a lot quicker to change view than with the TIR. A lot of mouserview user who have tried the TIR for a few weeks - months even, have returned to the mouse. Not that TIR doesn't give you a higher degree of immersion - it does - but because they feel the mouse is more accurate and faster....

That pretty much describes me. I have become so adept at using the mouse over the years that TIR4 feels much less instinctive. Without 6DoF in this game, the tir seems unnecessary. I'll leave it on the shelf until KotS or BoB comes out.

Worf101
10-31-2007, 07:30 AM
I flew with no PL, no externals etc.. in a dogfight/bomb server last night. I managed to get up, get to the target and bomb the wrong bridge. Did have to keep my head on a swivel though. Thank god my A.I. gunners told me when someone was getting on my 6. It was fun but claustriphobic and not much fun if you get shot down... nothing to see.

Da Worfster

F19_Orheim
10-31-2007, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:

...

Anyway, TIR is easily as good, even better than a mouse.

That's your opinion SeaFire... AND mine.. for ME! I bought my first TIR1 back in 2003/4 and upgraded to a 4 last year.
I am definately one of those fellows who can't do squat without one.

My point is: it all comes down to how used you are to a particular viewing method, and I object when "non tir users" states ignorantly that TIR is cheating.

BlitzPig_DDT
10-31-2007, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by ephemere1962:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yet those same people also claim that it gives "cheat" level ability to people, and it simply does NOT.

Yes it does. I experimented it offline many time, you can use PL as a "radar", looking in a given direction, and without really looking carrefully (without Zoom), you may "lock" a target even if you don't actually see it. If you repeat this in the 4 cardinal direction, then above and under, you have your radar.
With a TiR, looking in the proper direction isn't enough, often you need zoom to carrefully check, and it takes much more time, and isn't "automatic"... you may allways not see a target, especially if it's low above forest. With PL, you will allways lock it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong.

You're going by a "feeling" based on lack of experience.

Furthermore, if you don't see the dot first, then you need to adjust your settings or clean your monitor because something is wrong. The dots are visible LONG before PL will activate. Anyone who says otherwise has no clue how it actually works.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">PL does not track targets you can't see - .../... PL will not track through clouds, mountains, canopy framing, your own aircraft, or other aircraft - I can not tell you how many times I've lost lock in canopy framing.

This is partly wrong. PL will track and keep track through clouds and other aircrafts (easy to experiment offline)
... and it may keep track behind canopy frames and even trhough your own plane if you use "instant forward view" and release it from time to time.
... if you're a "skilled PL user", you know all that, and you know how to keep track of the target even if you don't actually see it.
That's something you'll never can do with TiR. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong again. It tracks a vector. That means that it "holds lock" for a short time. Just as you would watching something move across your FoV. Nothing more, nothing less. It will and does break when objects are obscured. It will break faster when objects move toward 6 o'clock as well.

Once again, these are comments from lack of experience and fear - pure "feeling" and nothing else.

BlitzPig_DDT
10-31-2007, 08:21 AM
Liv, you're being an *** with that attitude. And it's your arrogant comment about "understanding" that caused me to unload (ever so slightly) on the last person I quoted.

Go find some porn and calm yourself.



Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`ll explain one last time.

Is that a promise? Can I count on that?



It`s far more realistic than using padlock. I`ll break it down for ease of understanding.

1. You are matching the action of real life pilots. You move your head to look. Some set TIR so they move their head a lot, some a little. But the head moves in the corresponding direction to see. It may not be all the way up. or down or left or right, but it is as much as our monitor will allow. the eyes also move somewhat in the corresponding direction, ie towards the LEFT of the screen as the head turns left. The cone of view is always moving.

No, it's not. Your screen stays right where it is, unless you have it hanging off your head, the more your turn your head, the more you have to look in the opposite direction with your eyes, and the less you turn your head (from end to end), the greater disparity you have between "real" and what you see.

TiR is all fine well and good. It's a novel way of controling the mouse. But it is NOT what you so desperately need to beleive it to be. There's nothing special about it.



2. The hands are completely freed up. 2 joysticks (or joystick and keyboard setup) can be used to represent controls of the real aircraft.)

I fly in PL AND non-PL servers all the time (BlitzPig_El has TiR and hates PL use, so when he hosts I don't have it. War Clouds Jets turns PL and externals off and it's one of my favorite servers), and guess what? With or without it, I never take my hands off my HOTAS.

So once again, we see that "you is wrong, be sure". lol



3. The immersion facter. You actually get a `sense` of how real pilots viewed their world. the sky seems much bigger all of a sudden. When flying in formation you look left and right to your buddies using the head and it`s so easy, so natural you can almost feel you`re there.

This is IN your head, not ON it. I felt the very same thing when I moved from hat-switch snap views to the micro-stick. It's completely "natural" to me now, and the panning is as fast or slow, and natural in appaerance as I want it to be and really helps for formation flying, being in the pattern, searching for targets, navigating, etc.



When a 109 swoops by on your 5 high, you don`t even know you`ve just looked 5 high because it`s so natural. You didn`t artificially track it with a padlock, your HEAD did the tracking to it. At the same time you`re pulling gs and manouevering for the kill.

I don't fly for commies (if I can avoid it), so your red-biased example doesn't work.

Either way, from 5 high, PL DOESN'T WORK. I know you don't understand this because you don't use it, but you are "taking up a donkey-like resistance due to ignorance and refusing all the evidence put to him.".



Using a mouse or padlock to do this feels like gaming the game. You`re reminded you are not really looking, but playing. It`s the immersion that brings TIR up as feeling realistic and FAR more realistic than padlock. With padlock it`s a game, with TIR it`s immersion, it feels way more real.

No, you don't understand the difference between feel and representation.

You could recreate the FEEL of being there using FMs, DMs, sounds, and basically everything, that are wrong 6 ways from Sunday, but the feel would be there.

Representation in a simulator is accuracy and modeling of real-world things. Including compensating for limitations in the interface. PL does this, AS DOES TiR, just in different ways. They are basically the same (as others have said, but you chose to get a rod up your *** about me - go figure).



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
The point I'm making is that people hat PL but praise TiR as some sort of "realistic" control device. It's not.

It is. I`ve tried to explain. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not. But you feel the need to beleive it is to satisfy your fantasy.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:At
most, you could classify them as basically the same thing - a means to control the view in the game, and an attempt to compensate for limitations in the interface.

That`s what TIR was designed to do, as WELL as being more realistic. Padlock and TIR were not designed to do the same thing though. Padlock was designed to allow you to track a target - that`s it. TIR is designed to allow you to track a target FREELY, look around and enjoy a view as closely as possible as to how it would`ve been done in reality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TiR (and web-cam based mouse control) is based in necessity - you have your feet in rudder pedals, your hands on a yoke, or a stick and throttle, how to you control the mouse? Well... your head is free... and there ya go. But you have some need to kid yourself.



With Padlock you `fix` and you track.

With PL, you first find your target, get close enough to USE it (PL), and then you break it when you need to, otherwise you get dragged and bagged or auger in. You are speaking from pure feeling and zero knowledge. (it CAN be turned off and on you know, and there's also a snap forward with PL held function as well - though I no longer have that mapped)


With TIR, you look all round in your world.

Not without 6DoF you don't.


With PL supplementing mouse-look (and in my case, Cougar HOTAS micro-stick) "You track what you want when you want. You don`t even have to be in combat, just enjoy the `realistic` morning dawn enroute to target. You can seamlessly go from peace to war."



And I won't forget your promise made above either - do reds keep their word? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ephemere1962
10-31-2007, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Furthermore, if you don't see the dot first, then you need to adjust your settings or clean your monitor because something is wrong. The dots are visible LONG before PL will activate. Anyone who says otherwise has no clue how it actually works.

I play this game online and offline since the demo, and I know perfectly what I'm talking about.
Everybody can experience with a target 2000m or 3000m below above a forest, you can lock it before actually seiing it (I don't say the dot isn't present... I say you can't see it if you don't point it with the big lock finger...

I'm sorry, but you're wrong, not me... and everybody can make his own experience to confirm it


Wrong again. It tracks a vector. That means that it "holds lock" for a short time. Just as you would watching something move across your FoV. Nothing more, nothing less. It will and does break when objects are obscured. It will break faster when objects move toward 6 o'clock as well.

Wrong.... you should know that clouds don't exist in the game except graphically... there's no way the software may know that the vector go through a cloud and that the object is "obscured".... that's something everybody can verify also.
... and you forget to mention the "instant forward view" key.... who allo the PL to be kept as long as you want (or as long as the target is in PL range), by holding this key (who gives you the forward view)... then you can release the key and know instantaneoulsy in which sector the padlocked target is... if release the key less than 2 seconds, padlock will be kept... and again... and again.
Everybody can verify this fact also.
If you really are an experienced padlock user, you should know this...


Once again, these are comments from lack of experience and fear - pure "feeling" and nothing else.

And wrong again... I played with PL long before TiR was available, and was a strong PL advocate during at least 2 years. I know exactly how to use it, all its limitations, and the ways you can use it to gain the maximum advantage.

FoxThree
10-31-2007, 08:54 AM
About promises only time knows for sure.

I have no probs w/ Tir, if it is what rings yer bell ring away...PL and Tir are one and the same, a workaround solution to a sim that can never be full real, nothing more nothing less. If you think otherwise your're insecure IMNSHO.

To say one is less accurate is revealing ones own bias or ignorance you can decide which. Not really too sure how one can state one is "more realistic" in regards to the other unless they have no one to blame for getting bested and use this for an excuse, prolly the case here I would imagine. Even w/ my out of whack eyesight, the dot appears way before PL locks and using zoom, ID'ing an AC is usually done also well before PL will lock on. It's all good no matter how you you interpert it. Use whatever gives you the most enjoyment and leave the name calling,chest beating to the haters and less eloquent.

fox out

ephemere1962
10-31-2007, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by FoxThree:
Even w/ my out of whack eyesight, the dot appears way before PL locks and using zoom

2000m above a target on Normandy map? (for example)
You're fooling yourself and everybody else... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WOLFMondo
10-31-2007, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Worf101:
I flew with no PL, no externals etc.. in a dogfight/bomb server last night. I managed to get up, get to the target and bomb the wrong bridge. Did have to keep my head on a swivel though. Thank god my A.I. gunners told me when someone was getting on my 6. It was fun but claustriphobic and not much fun if you get shot down... nothing to see.

Da Worfster

So you had the same problems and made the same mistakes as real pilots? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Freelancer-1
10-31-2007, 09:28 AM
Looks like what we have here is a thread that comes down to people who want to play this as a sim vs people who want to play as a shoot-em-up.

There is certainly room for both types of players, but as the goals are different, there will always be a huge rift between the settings used.

Pointless discussion really, when there is no common ground between the two.

JG53Frankyboy
10-31-2007, 10:10 AM
anyway, i think the following fits also IL2:
".....- Dying is undermodeled, however."
from a retired USAF A-10 pilot about flying the A-10 in LOMAC

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SeaFireLIV
10-31-2007, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Liv, you're being an *** with that attitude. And it's your arrogant comment about "understanding" that caused me to unload (ever so slightly) on the last person I quoted.

Go find some porn and calm yourself.


LOL. The immature ones always lose their cool when proven wrong. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`ll explain one last time.


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Is that a promise? Can I count on that?

I can promise that, just can`t promise that you`ll comprehend. Big stick may be needed on you.



It`s far more realistic than using padlock. I`ll break it down for ease of understanding.

1. You are matching the action of real life pilots. You move your head to look. Some set TIR so they move their head a lot, some a little. But the head moves in the corresponding direction to see. It may not be all the way up. or down or left or right, but it is as much as our monitor will allow. the eyes also move somewhat in the corresponding direction, ie towards the LEFT of the screen as the head turns left. The cone of view is always moving.


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
No, it's not. Your screen stays right where it is, unless you have it hanging off your head, the more your turn your head, the more you have to look in the opposite direction with your eyes, and the less you turn your head (from end to end), the greater disparity you have between "real" and what you see.

TiR is all fine well and good. It's a novel way of controling the mouse. But it is NOT what you so desperately need to beleive it to be. There's nothing special about it.


Stubborn donkey mode STICK it is then for you.


2. The hands are completely freed up. 2 joysticks (or joystick and keyboard setup) can be used to represent controls of the real aircraft.)


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
I fly in PL AND non-PL servers all the time (BlitzPig_El has TiR and hates PL use, so when he hosts I don't have it. War Clouds Jets turns PL and externals off and it's one of my favorite servers), and guess what? With or without it, I never take my hands off my HOTAS.


Really? And you never have to access your padlock buttons continuously?


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
So once again, we see that "you is wrong, be sure". lol


Really. On this point? the rest of it where you`ve proven wrong but refuse to admit it doesn`t matter. Of course it don`t cos you`re in stubborn ignorant donkey mode.


3. The immersion facter. You actually get a `sense` of how real pilots viewed their world. the sky seems much bigger all of a sudden. When flying in formation you look left and right to your buddies using the head and it`s so easy, so natural you can almost feel you`re there.


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
This is IN your head, not ON it. I felt the very same thing when I moved from hat-switch snap views to the micro-stick. It's completely "natural" to me now, and the panning is as fast or slow, and natural in appaerance as I want it to be and really helps for formation flying, being in the pattern, searching for targets, navigating, etc.


This is completely rubbish. Padlock is completely natural to you as much as TIR is someone else who`s used it? How do you know? You`ve not even tried it! that point alone is what makes your whole donkey stubborness even more ridiculous!


When a 109 swoops by on your 5 high, you don`t even know you`ve just looked 5 high because it`s so natural. You didn`t artificially track it with a padlock, your HEAD did the tracking to it. At the same time you`re pulling gs and manouevering for the kill.


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
I don't fly for commies (if I can avoid it), so your red-biased example doesn't work.

Either way, from 5 high, PL DOESN'T WORK. I know you don't understand this because you don't use it, but you are "taking up a donkey-like resistance due to ignorance and refusing all the evidence put to him.".
.

Hmm, using my terms too, eh? good aren`t they?


Using a mouse or padlock to do this feels like gaming the game. You`re reminded you are not really looking, but playing. It`s the immersion that brings TIR up as feeling realistic and FAR more realistic than padlock. With padlock it`s a game, with TIR it`s immersion, it feels way more real.


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
No, you don't understand the difference between feel and representation.
.


I don`t fly for ignorant stubborn donkeys who have very little left to prove . And I certainly understand the difference. You simply don`t know how to argue and admit when you`re wrong.


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
You could recreate the FEEL of being there using FMs, DMs, sounds, and basically everything, that are wrong 6 ways from Sunday, but the feel would be there. .

And the point of this is? It still don`t prove padlock as same as TIR. It`s more girly-puff like blabbing.



Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Representation in a simulator is accuracy and modeling of real-world things. Including compensating for limitations in the interface. PL does this, AS DOES TiR, just in different ways. They are basically the same (as others have said, but you chose to get a rod up your *** about me - go figure).
.

Least i`m not an ***. Especially a stubborn donkey one at that.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
The point I'm making is that people hat PL but praise TiR as some sort of "realistic" control device. It's not.

It is. I`ve tried to explain. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Originally posted by
It's not. But you feel the need to beleive it is to satisfy your fantasy.
.

It is.

[/QUOTE]


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:At
most, you could classify them as basically the same thing - a means to control the view in the game, and an attempt to compensate for limitations in the interface.

That`s what TIR was designed to do, as WELL as being more realistic. Padlock and TIR were not designed to do the same thing though. Padlock was designed to allow you to track a target - that`s it. TIR is designed to allow you to track a target FREELY, look around and enjoy a view as closely as possible as to how it would`ve been done in reality.



Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
TiR (and web-cam based mouse control) is based in necessity - you have your feet in rudder pedals, your hands on a yoke, or a stick and throttle, how to you control the mouse? Well... your head is free... and there ya go. But you have some need to kid yourself.


Yep, definitely no point explaining to stubborn donkeys.




Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
With PL, you first find your target, get close enough to USE it (PL), and then you break it when you need to, otherwise you get dragged and bagged or auger in. You are speaking from pure feeling and zero knowledge. (it CAN be turned off and on you know, and there's also a snap forward with PL held function as well - though I no longer have that mapped)


How can I be talking from feeling when I`ve just described EXACTLY what happens in the sim?


With TIR, you look all round in your world.


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Not without 6DoF you don't.


YES YOU DO. 6D0F allows you to look past struts, and move your view up or down around the internal cockpit, might even let you look outside the cockpit (with openable cockpits), but without 6D0F you STILL can LOOk all around, just not past the struts. Idiot. Learn what you`re talking about before locking horns with me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif



Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
With PL supplementing mouse-look (and in my case, Cougar HOTAS micro-stick) "You track what you want when you want. You don`t even have to be in combat, just enjoy the `realistic` morning dawn enroute to target. You can seamlessly go from peace to war."


Rubbish. I can`t even be bothered because it`s going nowhere with you. All you have done is turned this into a battle, not a search for what`s true. As usual, your low brow inability to admit to being wrong has only revealed the idiocy within. Ignorance is indeed bold and stupid. And copying my words agin i see.


Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
And I won't forget your promise made above either - do reds keep their word? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I wait for the day you say you were wrong about TIR. Of course you`ll probably wait a long time and try and do it when you know I`m not around. Cos you don`t apologise to `commies` do you?

Well it`s been pain arguing with someone who`s so stupid that they can ***git-talk continuously even though they`ve never even tried TIR. Pretty much like trying to convince a stubborn donkey to move to where it`ll be safe. I also find your addiction to commies interesting. the paranoia you show here certainly could do with investigation... or maybe you`re harking back to 20 years ago and forgot we moved on since then? Or maybe still just a stubborn *** there too?

Better off to just beat it with a big stick!

Someone remind me NOT to talk with an idiot next time.

buzzsaw1939
10-31-2007, 12:32 PM
Well....Being an old pro, I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents on the TIR.

Of course the TIR isn't natural, but eather is looking around with your thumb! it's all a matter of what your used to, now that I'm getting used to it, I like it, the guys aren't lying when they say "give it a couple weeks".

Personaly, when and if I get online, I won't be joining a server who has rules that only allow those with high end systems and huge monitors to have the advantage.

Rules are for games or contest, I'm not into scores in an arcade game, I just want to enjoy the challenge of what those guys went through, like, how would I have done if I was there?

This morning I set up a qmb with 25's on a morning mission, simple bombing and back, reminiscent of my past, with ground fog, scatterd clouds and sun comeing up on the horizon, I could glance down and set my engines with my instruments, when they settled down to a low rumble for cruise, I slowly looked around at the scenery, ,just like I would with my eyes, I felt a tranquility I haven't experienced for a long time, for a few moments I was there!

Lost in memorys, I was suddenly brought back to the mission when white lines came sreaking by my window!

Now you want to talk about immersion? WOW! I wouldn't have enjoyed it as much with my thumb, thats being used for more important functions than looking around!.... Watch it!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif



http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa103/buzzsaw1939/b4a.jpg

willyvic
10-31-2007, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Personaly, when and if I get online, I won't be joining a server who has rules that only allow those with high end systems and huge monitors to have the advantage.



That could be the subject of a whole new thread and debate.

I would recommend you take the plunge into online. The camraderie (sp?) is worth the ticket. Hook yourself up with teamspeak, fly with a wingy, and use your aquired piloting skills. You will enjoy yourself, I guarantee.

And if you get jumped by one of those "big screen" boys just chalk it up to old eyes... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

WV

buzzsaw1939
10-31-2007, 01:48 PM
Thanks Willy... I would really like too, as soon as my system can handle it, I need a new v-card, as far as getting jumped, I expect it! wouldn't be a challenge if they didn't, I can always wine it's not fair cause of my eyes! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

han freak solo
10-31-2007, 02:02 PM
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m65/tuddley3/SH3%20Sigs/InMemoryofMiltonLoder.jpg

ottoramsaig1959, see what you started?

You're grounded. I hope you've learned your lesson about these forums.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
10-31-2007, 03:08 PM
OMG I LOVE it. Liv has his panties all in a wad from all that sand in there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

He lives in a fantasy about the game, gets idignant over the fact that people know he's full of $hit about his fantasy, starts slinging insults and attitude for NO reason (other than his sandy snatch I mean), and then makes promises he can't keep.

So - a red-whiner, living in a fantasy, that has to instigate flames and lies. What a lovely combination.

Liv - when you drive and make a lane change, you look BEHIND you, not 30 degrees to the right (to clear hte blind spot the mirrors don't cover). Sorry bud. I know that blows your precious immersion. Does that mean that you'll feel the last 6 years of your life have been a waste? (oh noes!11!!) Pressing I to start the engine is the same thing, but we have M$FS snobs who insist that it's just so "gaming the game". Go hang with them, they're your kind of people.

And I'm really looking forward to you showing once again how little you understand, how pissy you are, and how you just can't keep the promises you make. You won't make me wait long, will you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
10-31-2007, 03:59 PM
LOL.

It took you that long to think of more inane useless nonsense to spout.

Funny.

MrMojok
10-31-2007, 04:29 PM
I'm copying a post I made on another forum about a related issue, F6 and the famous "80%" stat:


Originally posted by MrMojok:
I was under the impression that it was an actual study that had been done post-war. A study where they interviewed pilots who had scored aerial victories, and also guys who had been shot down but lived.

And their conclusion was that about 80% of the time, when a guy was shot down, he either

a)never saw his attacker, or
b)did not see him until his attacker had already reached a position of decisive advantage


I'll be damned if I can find a link on such a study now, but I could swear I read this. It may be in one of my Mike Spick books, I don't know.

And in my personal opinion, this element... and therefore some of the fun... is removed when you go onto a server where people fly around hitting F6 or whatever it is.

That being said, I do fly on such servers from time to time. It's still fun, but it's a different kind of fun to me. And it loses some of the value of historical recreation of a) and b) above.

This is all just my opinion, and I don't look down at people who fly exclusively on F6 servers at all. These are just my personal feelings.

buzzsaw1939
10-31-2007, 04:36 PM
Come on guys, lighten up will ya? I'm enjoying this thread, and hate to see it locked. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Hkuusela
10-31-2007, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hkuusela:
I've never understood how you can fly without map icons or minimap path, at least offline. I mean, do the real pilots really get an order "fly over there, kill something and come back"? No routes, no altitudes, no nothing? I don't think so.

it's easy to understand.
Print your paper map, trace your route on, and use your paper map and what you see on the screen to do your navigation, go to the target, complete your duty and navigate back to base.

Much more immersive IMHO than map icon and minimap path.
But everybody plays the way he likes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, that's all very fine, at least if you have a printer at home. But there is another problem. You don't have much visual aids to help navigation. For instance Russia maps are just green and some more green. You see your airfield only when your really close. So even if you navigate ok, you can still miss the bloody thing. I'm not saying it's not ok by me to fly without minimap path and so on, I just don't have the patience, nor the skill to do the dead reckoning that IMO navigating without visual aids requires.

EDCF_Rama
10-31-2007, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Hkuusela:
Well, that's all very fine, at least if you have a printer at home. But there is another problem. You don't have much visual aids to help navigation. For instance Russia maps are just green and some more green. You see your airfield only when your really close. So even if you navigate ok, you can still miss the bloody thing. I'm not saying it's not ok by me to fly without minimap path and so on, I just don't have the patience, nor the skill to do the dead reckoning that IMO navigating without visual aids requires.

Well... it's not that difficult. The basic principle is "if you're never lost, you don't have to search your way".
If you look frequently enough to your paper map (1 very quick look every 2mn ), you never loose track of the landscape features... and get never lost.
One you get the habbit, it becomes quite easy.

Bearcat99
10-31-2007, 08:18 PM
Two guys in here are about to get this thread locked... guess which two?

Bottom line... you bought it.. fly it how you want to... and however you want to fly it thewre is someone on HL who will fly with you... so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

buzzsaw1939
10-31-2007, 08:40 PM
AAAARRRRGGG!... I knew it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Badsight-
10-31-2007, 11:27 PM
quite an unbelieveable thread

amazing that this discussion actually still takes place

everyone knows the PC screen places limitations on you that settings can overcome

Feathered_IV
11-01-2007, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hkuusela:
Well, that's all very fine, at least if you have a printer at home. But there is another problem. You don't have much visual aids to help navigation. For instance Russia maps are just green and some more green. You see your airfield only when your really close. So even if you navigate ok, you can still miss the bloody thing. I'm not saying it's not ok by me to fly without minimap path and so on, I just don't have the patience, nor the skill to do the dead reckoning that IMO navigating without visual aids requires.

Well... it's not that difficult. The basic principle is "if you're never lost, you don't have to search your way".
If you look frequently enough to your paper map (1 very quick look every 2mn ), you never loose track of the landscape features... and get never lost.
One you get the habbit, it becomes quite easy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, that is so true. I've had some incredible experiences on ZvsW when a protracted fight or chase has left me miles out over empty sea. Neither land nor friendly carriers anywhere to be seen and only the most approximate idea of my position. Climbing for height, nursing a rough engine or maybe a damaged airframe. Flying a box search and watching as my fuel tanks run dry. Getting through that and finally picking up those tell tale dots on the horizon as you see your carrier at last. That is worth ten kills. Beats the hell out of pointing your little aeroplane icon in the right drection and then picking your nose, all the way to the target.

han freak solo
11-01-2007, 11:39 AM
Y'all do know that even without using the minimap path you can use your Tab commands to ask for a vector to home base, right?

You can even ask for a vector to find a target if you wish.

In an offline campaign, that is the only thing that substitutes for calling others in your flight or ground control/air control.

Stiletto-
11-01-2007, 12:58 PM
While I think that my TrackIR adds a wealth of realism over a mouse, hat switch or padlock.. We can all see that this thread isn't going anywhere. I plan to end this debate right now by posting a link to this!

http://really.ru/eng/kb.php?mode=article&k=18

I might put it on my Christmas list. Everything else will pale in comparision to the triple head 2 go, making no need for padlock, externals ect.. Since you are using 3 screens, you should have a wealth of information coming out of your copy of Il2! (Though I can still see the use of an TrackIR with a wide deadzone helping you get those last few degrees back behind your seat but not necessary between 9 and 3 o'clock depending on your setup FOV).

buzzsaw1939
11-01-2007, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by han freak solo:
Y'all do know that even without using the minimap path you can use your Tab commands to ask for a vector to home base, right?

You can even ask for a vector to find a target if you wish.

In an offline campaign, that is the only thing that substitutes for calling others in your flight or ground control/air control.

Good point han.... I forgot about that myself! I was getting ready to tell some of my short cut navigation tricks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

K_Freddie
11-01-2007, 03:10 PM
Full Real:
Definition - A term to describe a flight sim game, IL2, difficulty settings when set to the hardest level of play.

Not to be misconstrued with real life, although some pedantic players tend to over do this, and elaborate to nausiating levels of irrelevance. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

buzzsaw1939
11-02-2007, 11:29 AM
Well... Not to worry Freddie... It looks Like this thread has run it's coarse, you won't be forced to read it or post in it any more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hkuusela
11-04-2007, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hkuusela:
Well, that's all very fine, at least if you have a printer at home. But there is another problem. You don't have much visual aids to help navigation. For instance Russia maps are just green and some more green. You see your airfield only when your really close. So even if you navigate ok, you can still miss the bloody thing. I'm not saying it's not ok by me to fly without minimap path and so on, I just don't have the patience, nor the skill to do the dead reckoning that IMO navigating without visual aids requires.

Well... it's not that difficult. The basic principle is "if you're never lost, you don't have to search your way".
If you look frequently enough to your paper map (1 very quick look every 2mn ), you never loose track of the landscape features... and get never lost.
One you get the habbit, it becomes quite easy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's not that difficult in areas where you have those landscape features, but for instance in Russia this is not the case. Navigating is relatively easy in areas like the Gulf of Finland, where you have plenty of distinguishable landscape features. And it is pretty hard to keep track of your whereabouts and fight an enemy fighter at the same time. So it can be pretty hard not to get lost. I'm just saying, that navigating based on what you see on a computer screen is a lot harder than navigating based on what you see in RL. Real maps also have a bit more detail and information on terrain, than the ones in the game.

DKoor
11-04-2007, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by han freak solo:
Y'all do know that even without using the minimap path you can use your Tab commands to ask for a vector to home base, right?

You can even ask for a vector to find a target if you wish.

In an offline campaign, that is the only thing that substitutes for calling others in your flight or ground control/air control. +1 what the man said.............

DKoor
11-04-2007, 03:28 AM
UK1 dedicated has nice diff settings considering that they have pit off...........

They have limited icons which in turn render red arrow/blue arrows SA to the point of unreliability.

Choctaw111
11-04-2007, 02:44 PM
As I have said before, getting shot at for real is full real. After my combat deployment and coming back home and sitting in complete comfort in front of my PC I can not call any game "full real". I may have used the term "full real" in the past but after thinking about it like this I use the term "full switch".

mortoma
11-04-2007, 06:14 PM
For crying out loud people, flying with map icons and minimap does not make you more manly or grow more hair on your chest. I use those two crutches not because I can't navigate easily by looking at terrian features. As I already pointed out, I am a real pilot ( but have not flown in years ) and flying by terrain ( called pilotage ) is not very hard and I'm great at it.

I find the game actually LESS immersive if I fly by terrain feature or ask for a vector. To me it's just a game, and so I actually play it for FUN. I have more fun if I just forget about naving and concentrate of combat. I know I can navigate without map icons on minipath, I have done it. I simply prefer not to because it's no big deal to me, <span class="ev_code_RED">I only care about the fighing and shooting part.</span> Big deal if I use the map to navigate or call for a vector! So what??

And another thing is that the vectors are usually off by as much as 20 degrees of heading anyway!!! If you are flying in a Pacific map far away, good luck finding the carrier usin the lame vectors. I also don't want to take the extra time to do navigation work. If I want to do that I'll start flying real planes again for crying out loud. You people make such a big issue about stupid things, then try to act superior and more macho because you play a stupid game a certain way.

Please get over it, ok???

mortoma
11-04-2007, 06:18 PM
Repeat after me:
IL-2/FB/AEP/PF/1946 is just a game.

Got it??? Capiche???

EDCF_Rama
11-05-2007, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Hkuusela:
It's not that difficult in areas where you have those landscape features, but for instance in Russia this is not the case. Navigating is relatively easy in areas like the Gulf of Finland, where you have plenty of distinguishable landscape features. And it is pretty hard to keep track of your whereabouts and fight an enemy fighter at the same time. So it can be pretty hard not to get lost. I'm just saying, that navigating based on what you see on a computer screen is a lot harder than navigating based on what you see in RL. Real maps also have a bit more detail and information on terrain, than the ones in the game.

I don't have any difficulties above any map which isn't "full ocean" (then I try to use the onboard gonio when planes have one)

I'm also a private pilot in RL... and I can tell you than navigating on a 1:500k standard aviation map when flying from 1000 ft to 2000 ft alt is much more difficult than in the game... I'm very glad I have GPS and VOR receivers in my pit..
actually the landscape in IL2 is quite simple and features easy to distinguish, and the map largelly enough detailed (and exactly corresponding with the features you can see).... in RL, in standard agriculture areas, with a few forests there and there, it's quite hard to have a feature that you can recocgnise from map reading if you don't know the area (if you don't have the chance to have a 3-way or a typical lake in your sight)... so between the "typical landsmarks", you use estimate, or VOR, or GPS... but it's usually very hard to rely only on terrain.

So... I don't totally agree with what you say.

DKoor
11-05-2007, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
Repeat after me:
IL-2/FB/AEP/PF/1946 is just a game.

Got it??? Capiche??? +1

IL-2/FB/AEP/PF/1946 is just a game.

Stiletto-
11-05-2007, 03:30 PM
... A game trying to mimic and duplicate real life events as accurate and realistic as possible http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Wish there was a cauldron and stick smiley, I think there is but damn if I can find it, becaause yes I am just stirring the pot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

han freak solo
11-05-2007, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
And another thing is that the vectors are usually off by as much as 20 degrees of heading anyway!!! If you are flying in a Pacific map far away, good luck finding the carrier usin the lame vectors.

That's because the silly ship is moving from the 1st vector given. They never tell you where the ship is going to be, just where it was.

There's also a Tab command to request your carrier to blow smoke and leave oil slicks. It's just like following bread crumbs then.

DKoor
11-06-2007, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by Stiletto-:
... A game trying to mimic and duplicate real life events as accurate and realistic as possible http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Wish there was a cauldron and stick smiley, I think there is but damn if I can find it, becaause yes I am just stirring the pot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/images/smilies/smiles2/stirthepot.gif
http://i20.tinypic.com/x2t4q0.gif

DKoor
11-06-2007, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by han freak solo:
There's also a Tab command to request your carrier to blow smoke and leave oil slicks. It's just like following bread crumbs then. Hey mate...... I never know that could be done... how do I get carrier to do that?

polak5
11-06-2007, 02:59 AM
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8702/pbf055adgamesystemfd8.jpg

DKoor
11-06-2007, 04:10 AM
Games traveled long way from "Insert New Coin" times..................

Monty_Thrud
11-06-2007, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by han freak solo:
There's also a Tab command to request your carrier to blow smoke and leave oil slicks. It's just like following bread crumbs then. Hey mate...... I never know that could be done... how do I get carrier to do that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bomb the CR@P out of it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

DKoor
11-06-2007, 12:42 PM
Roger that.................. nothing that 2xSC2k @ He-111H6 can't solve....... now where's that OldMan when you need un.....

His sig says something like "If a brute force doesn't solve yer prob, you don't use it enough".. or sumtin.

han freak solo
11-06-2007, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
Bomb the CR@P out of it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Ooops. My bad. That was a "bomb release" command. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

ottoramsaig
11-07-2007, 09:39 AM
WOW! I did not mean to create such feedback!.........Sorry