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View Full Version : Anyone who's for AI to stay till the end of mission and not disappear...raise your hand!



XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:25 AM
To start I'll raise my hand first!

I simply find this new feature wrong, useless, anoying and unrealistic, not to mention I can't even make missions the way I want because of it so I really wish for it to be removed and have AI aircraft not disappear like before!

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:25 AM
To start I'll raise my hand first!

I simply find this new feature wrong, useless, anoying and unrealistic, not to mention I can't even make missions the way I want because of it so I really wish for it to be removed and have AI aircraft not disappear like before!

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:15 AM
Ai Aircraft take up framerates. You really want to trade framerates for this feature, plus the AI taxing will crash into them (unless you want the team to waste time writing "clever taxi code, time that IMHO could be spent on more important parts of a FLIGHTsim).

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:25 AM
Both hands up. GGGrrrrr.

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:26 AM
raise !!!!!!!!!

(@ Nowi: the AI is there when the mission starts, so it should lower the FPS already at this time and not only at the end of a mission when the AI planes landed. And in IL2 it was playable with the AI)

++ 88.IAP_Manuc ++

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:30 AM
Hand raised!

My framerates have not improved with this disppearing stuff. And concerning with crashes, they'd better make the formations more sparse to avoid stupid IA mid-air collisions.

- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:40 AM
Of course the AI is there from the start, but removing it towards the end should improve framerates. In that regard you are correct though, because when it's playable enough from the start then removing planes as the mission goes along does not make much sense.

However, they need to solve that taxi problen. Sucks to have your whole flight colliding into each other on the parking ramp.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:35 PM
It's there for campaigns, preventing collisions while taxiing.

Please leave it as it stands.


Greg

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:36 PM
The only reason aircraft crash when taxing is that people put objects near the slips and the hard stands. It's better to place objects quite some distance away from these areas.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:50 PM
"The only reason aircraft crash when taxing is that people put objects near the slips and the hard stands. It's better to place objects quite some distance away from these areas."

Numerous large aircraft exceed the capacity of the smaller hardstands, also causing crashes - "craches", rather!


Greg

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:07 PM
H¤nde hoch ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Bump...

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:31 PM
I'd like to see them stay. I used to enjoy navigating to the enemy base and strafing them after they'd broken off. But the crashes while taxiing are a pain. It would be good to see both issues resolved if this is possible.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:14 PM
maybe i would possible to make it an on/off issue there for the people who want it can just turn it on and the people who dont can just turn it off. personally i dont care if it stays on or not the game is amazing as it is!!

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:50 PM
my hand is up
lou69

THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN WON WITHOUT THE CANADIANS

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:56 PM
My hand is up too but i guess it would be better to have the option to enable/disable that. Maybe in the same way as you can change some campaign parameters in the conf.ini. So everybody who has the HP to handle that many AI planes on the ground can select it via their ini. Is that an idea?

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:37 PM
Hand raised!

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:49 PM
Well, it's not necessarily a popularity contest that causes the developers to do things, but it can't hurt, either. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Likewise, it does sound like a good idea. As an On/Off option, even better.

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 12:14 AM
Me too. I wondered where the hell my fellow (AI) pilots dissapeared to. It spoilt my video I created.

thanks
Tony

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 12:54 AM
A simple solution for the taxi problem is this:

Limit number of aircraft that can be on the base depending on how many aircraft it can handle!

If, say, one base can handle only 10 aircraft then when creating a mission that base should not accept more aircraft to take off or land on it...as in real life...airports simply have their limitations and if an airport can have so many aircraft then that's what they had as their maximum.

How hard is to for a programmer to implement this, huh?

I still hate these AI disappearing as they are now!

(raising my other hand)

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:57 AM
Hand raised. If this is really a problem, you'd think they would have made this "feature" an OPTION, so everyone can be happy!

Is that so wrong? Having options instead of forcing something on those who don't want it?

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:37 AM
Yes Please!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:39 AM
And how about a Plane Collision On/Off option? Yes, I know it's unrealistic, but, unless they fix the IA it could be a reasonable solution. In WW2 Fighters collisions were too frequent, and this option improved the gameplay a lot.

- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:54 AM
I personally find no colision option to be unrealistic but again having it as an option is always good... but again, to stay on the topic...

...can the AI disappearing be changed to normal please? Or at least an option to have it on or of is also ok /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:05 AM
Raising Arm

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:18 AM
Maybe the planes disappear now because of the taxiing problem? I can't see that something like this is an oversight.

As for the frame rate issue, well, the aeroplanes where there or thereabouts at the start of the mission anyway, so if that was the problem it would affect the start too. I feel sure it was done because of the number of complaints about taxiing.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:26 AM
a vote and a bump!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:31 AM
This is just for something like statistic purposes.

If you don't like this feature, like me, then please say so in a nice manner...if you disagree please do same.

If most people do not like it and wish for it to be removed or changed so it becomes an option then I think Oleg and his team should do so...I think that's very fair and democratic...and after all this is what this room is for...for Oleg to read our opinions and do the best he can to get there.

I understand that some things might not be possible due to PC limitations but if it possible and I think this is very possible then it would be fair to make a change.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:40 PM
Yeah - I must confess I found this a little surprising. Ideally it would be a toggle-able option but I'd like to see them stick around rather than not.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:37 PM
I say yes

Puts up both hands,and 2 thumbs

No1RAAF_Pourshot


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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:05 PM
No Text

Message Edited on 08/27/0302:23AM by plumps_

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:32 PM
Aye! I vote in support of non-vanishing AI planes.

--------------------------------
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one.

adlabs6
08-26-2003, 05:56 PM
This thread seems a bit misguided.

Asking for a graphical change (plane visibility) is secondary to the AI problems that are the root of the entire issue. If anything, I ask that the dev team consider updates to the AI so that "stop gap" fixes, like disappearing planes, are unnecesary.

Given that AI taxi methods appear unchanged in the patch, dissappearing planes are indeed a solution to AI ground collisions fouling my dynamic campaigns. I welcome it until the AI issues are resovled in future patch releases.

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:57 PM
No Text

Message Edited on 08/26/0304:58PM by mortoma

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:59 PM
You get my vote as well. Although this phenomenom is well intentioned, and geared to help frame rates, most of us are flying with squadron/flight/scenery/ground object densities that we have altered sufficiently to get good frame rates. And with all the aircraft that appeared in our missions at the start. Subsequent disappearence of aircraft in this case has little benefit, if our FPS were sufficient to begin with. Currently my settings are such that I start with 16 to 20 aircraft total in my mission and my frame rates are good. So why would I need my aircraft to disappear if this is the case?? This is a simulation and the very word "simulation" connotes a striving for realism. I hardly find it realistic to see my aircraft disappear immediately after parking, so it's a poor trade off indeed.
And really I personally have never noted a substantial increase of FPS upon the disappearance of any aircraft. Whether it be from this type of disappearance or from crashing. It's simply not worth it.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755



"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:24 PM
Hand Raised!

I believe it's the taxi collisions that this was intended to adress rather than FPS. This was a very quick and cheap band-aid - I'm sure the good folks at UBI didn't realize what a sore point it would be. I really wish they would fix it right.

If they have to put a limit on the number of planes that can land at a base so be it, as long as it is reasonable (all seem to have space for 16 or more) then ok.

If they have to patch campaign missions to remove fixed objects from the taxiways & parking (light green) areas, fine.

If they can fix the AI to deal with traffic and fixed objects on it's own, EXCELLENT!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:36 PM
Raising my hand here.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:37 PM
Yeah! I'm in.

GATO_LOCO

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:34 PM
STAY!!!!
To see who survived, and in how many pices...

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:26 AM
This is a tough one - I'm all for anything that improves the immersion factor in this already-incredible sim, and disappearing planes certainly seem to decrease the immersion factor. But, then again, planes colliding while taxiing also reduces the immersion factor (when happening more than very infrequently), plus the loss of these planes apparently has an actual effect on game play (at least in the sense of their impact on dynamic campaigns).

Therefore, if it really has to be a choice between fixing a visual/immersion and gameplay-affecting problem (taxi collisions) and fixing what seems to be only a visual/immersion problem (disappearing planes), I guess I would prefer staying with the disappearing plane "feature". However, I would much prefer fixing both of these problems if it can reasonably be done in a future patch.

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Die Stukas, die Stukas, die Stukas.

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:26 AM
It's true that AI "inteligence" is not up to task... in formation flying and ground taxi and this is what this AI disappearing is supposed to solve (at least for ground trafic) but I think this is way too wrong way of fixing things. In fact I find this way much worse than having a few a/c colide.

There are many possibilities in which ground colissions can be avoided and they could be:

1. the same way AI a/c breaks off when coming too close in formation they can avoid going towards a parked a/c on taxi. If they can see in clouds, through aircraft frame etc then why can't they see in front when taxing?

2. Set limits to bases on how much a/c they can support...like in real live, aye?

there are more ways to achieve this for sure and without giving much thought into it I find a joint 1st and 2nd option to be the best and most realistic.

adlabs6
08-27-2003, 04:33 AM
No.1RAAF_edin wrote:
- In fact I find this way much
- worse than having a few a/c colide.

Except that when the planes disappear instead of explode I don't get the message "you have only 6 combat ready planes left in your squadron" in the mission debriefing!

I was thinking of a fix for this today, maybe they AI could be programmed so they can't collide with each other? You could still collide with them of course, but since the AI really seem often unable to see ANYTHING in their paths it may help. Still this is yet another bandage on the wound, rather than a cure.

No collision AI unrealistic? Surely. Disappearing AI planes unrealistic? Of course. Suicide squadrons unrealistic? I think so.

I still think an upgrade to the AI, at least in the areas of ground control logic, and mid-air formation spacing is best. Then all these other issues will hopefully be long gone. Would submitting this request via the "beta patch" system work? Or is that only for FM and DM bug reports?

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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 12:23 AM
Hand raised. Fed up with this. I didn't like it when they disappeared before, but now they vanish before the next plane has even landed. Boring.

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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 05:40 PM
No.1RAAF_edin wrote:
- It's true that AI "inteligence" is not up to task...
- in formation flying and ground taxi and this is what
- this AI disappearing is supposed to solve (at least
- for ground trafic) but I think this is way too wrong
- way of fixing things. In fact I find this way much
- worse than having a few a/c colide.
-
- There are many possibilities in which ground
- colissions can be avoided and they could be:
-
- 1. the same way AI a/c breaks off when coming too
- close in formation they can avoid going towards a
- parked a/c on taxi. If they can see in clouds,
- through aircraft frame etc then why can't they see
- in front when taxing?


This is true- I'd rather see the AI planes driving across the grass to avoid collisions than just diappear to avoid future landings (even if there aren't more than 2 or 3 planes landing at the field).

-
- 2. Set limits to bases on how much a/c they can
- support...like in real live, aye?


Realistically, you can pack a LOT of planes onto a field. I've made "air museums" in FMB with 50+ planes, and I could still maneuver my P-39 around and in between them. In game, I've never seen more than 8 planes on one tarmac- 2 rows of 4, and they are spaced quite far apart. Even if they were 323's (with this game's largest wingspan), they park far enough apart for other planes to be parked inbetween.

It wouldn't seem to difficult of a task to implement ground collision avoidance routines in which the AI knew the turning radius of the given plane, and had a safety margin of say 1.5-2 turning radii from which it would veer from moving or static ground objects. In my first flight after patch, I remember seeing a He111 land at an airfield, and alternated taxiways to avoid a fuel truck driving down one side. When the fuel truck was clear, the He111 crossed over the runway and taxied to the hardstand- so it would seem there are SOME collision avoidance routines already in.

-
- there are more ways to achieve this for sure and
- without giving much thought into it I find a joint
- 1st and 2nd option to be the best and most
- realistic.
-
-



--------------------------------
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 08:16 PM
Let me tell you something about the AI and unmanned planes on your airfield. After a mission destroying some bombers, my Yaks took no damage, and we returned home happy Russians, the next thing I know is, I lose 4 of my Yaks because they crashed into parked unmanned planes on the airfield, it was the SB bombers, I was so mad because they were all the aces of my group, and the next mission I lost most of my guys to German fighters because they suck and we needed the aces, And some of my Yaks crashed into the forest surrounding my airfield, and this happens almost every mission. So I think Oleg should fix this, BTW I was playing the Northern Front, this happens alot up there any Russian campaign you do up there, this happens, OH yes I think AI should stay there, just find better parking spots and the pilot inside should dissapear showing that the plane is empty, and that the crash fires should go away after a couple mins, case they stay to long.

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Message Edited on 08/28/0312:16PM by Wetwilly87

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 08:27 PM
You have my vote.Last time I made up our weekly Tangmere Pilots Sortie,we escorted Blenheims to the day's target.Anyhow on the return home the 109Es and 110s appeared and there was the usual running battle.
Afterwards only two of our bombers made it back.They were seen circuiting their airfield to land but next time we checked a few minutes later there were no Blenheims anywhere.I thought they'd maybe collided.
Thanks for explaining what happened-had me scratching my head at the time hehe.

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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:26 AM
/me raises both hands

I've only seen planes with huge wingspans like the Me-323 and He-111z crash into other planes, and only in my custom missions where I was just dicking around.

Static planes shouldn't be a problem because you can MANUALLY place them. Anyway, I'd rather see planes stay on the ground and their rookie pilots accidentally shear a wing off than have the planes magically disappear.

>>K

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 03:26 AM
Add my hand. I enjoyed the assessment after the mission, fresh beer in hand and waiting for the rest of the flight to come in. Then, when all was quiet, I would examine all the planes before going to the debriefing.

I miss that. I do not fly on line as a matter of both preference and computer limitations.

Cheers

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 11:08 PM
RAISES HAND VERY HIGH

I find this vanishing AI very unrealistic and a quick fix that is poorly done. If recoding the AI pilots to taxi correctly is THAT difficult at least give us the option to turn this feature on or off. I hope this oversight is corrected in the next patch.

StukaKing



Message Edited on 08/29/0305:11PM by StukaKing

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 06:52 PM
Bump

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XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 07:12 PM
raising my hand /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 09:55 PM
Has it changed since the patch? I remember arriving home, and being able to see where my flight parked, so as to go join them (pre-patch) but now, as you say, they disappear. I'm seriously considering reinstalling FB without the patch


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XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 11:26 PM
Yeah they will land, taxi, and park. After about a minute they vanish.

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XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 07:32 AM
I agree completely with adlabs:

adlabs6 wrote:
- Asking for a graphical change (plane visibility) is
- secondary to the AI problems that are the root of
- the entire issue. If anything, I ask that the dev
- team consider updates to the AI so that "stop gap"
- fixes, like disappearing planes, are unnecesary.

The disappearing AI is made due to lack of "intelligence" programmed into them and they very often crash into each other and us as players.

I would like to hear SOME response from SOMEONE in Oleg's team about IF they will EVER, at least, TRY to fix this problem /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 10:26 AM
No.1RAAF_edin wrote:

The disappearing AI is made due to lack of
- "intelligence" programmed into them and they very
- often crash into each other and us as players.
-
- I would like to hear SOME response from
- SOMEONE in Oleg's team about IF they
- will EVER, at least, TRY to fix this
- problem http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CAC-15.jpg

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XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 06:01 PM
Parked aircraft must NOT disappear.Id rather see a ground collision(which happened),than disappearing into thin air(which didnt happen).


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XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 09:45 PM
Now that AI disppears one can get victory credits for crashed landed planes when they disappear, this is far more important. Let it this way /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

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XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 09:55 PM
nt = No Text

S!

M0NS



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XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 10:42 PM
My vote too!

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 08:14 AM
JorBR wrote:
- Now that AI disppears one can get victory credits
- for crashed landed planes when they disappear, this
- is far more important.

Can't disagree with you more... This is not the way to do this. They can simply credit you with the kill, or downing of an aircraft, at the end of the mission... no need for disappearing...

It just sucks /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 04:31 PM
bump

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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 06:21 AM
Thanks for the "bump"... here's another one /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BUMP

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 01:46 PM
v1.11 and AI still disappears /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 12:56 AM
my hand is raised
lou69

THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN WON WITHOUT THE CANADIANS

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:48 AM
S!
Maybe increase AI time and decrease the crash fires/smoke(which seem to last forever) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

thomas

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:36 AM
hi,

it must def. stay!

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 10:05 AM
raise again to BUMP this /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 10:25 AM
bump and an arm goes up

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 12:26 PM
Yo, my hands are up, too!

This "improved AI behaviour on ground" is a bad joke.

I hope the IL-2 FB team finds a solution for "the crashing while on ground", because it really sucks to have dissappearing planes on runways, that's not realistic at all.
( Have you tried to attack landing aircraft ? Not so funny when they just dissappear while on ground, is it ? )

Please fix it, this new "improvement" is no improvement, it's a step backwards.

And another thing....

http://www.nekkekamistormcrow.de/images/Kopflos.bmp


Please fix this "head-problem", too, it looks very strange to have a dead pilot in his cockpit with his head behind him...

Regards, Sven

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 02:08 PM
I support keeping the ai in the missions until the entire mission ends.

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 10:32 PM
Both hands here too!!!

Aside from the campaign AI collision problem (which I'm yet to experience), I liked the fact that you could view the crash-landed aircraft and see who RTB'd. Plus the disappearance of AI has stuffed a couple of missions I was making!

As an addition, I know you do'nt get kills for crash landed aircraft, but maybe this could be introduced in a damaged/destroyed/shared kill system. (Half a kill vs a full kill?).

IMHO

Cheers, Esq.

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 09:58 AM
It certainly would be nice to see correct taxiing without collisions, but its probably too much programming work (?). As a quick fix please give us the ability to decide ourselves whether AI flights should disappear after landing. Add one line in conf.ini maybe. Or let them disappear in dynamic campaign modus only.

Preventing all ground collisions is only needed in the dynamic campaigns, but we don't play these all the time. Many of us don't play them at all, as there are many good human-made missions and campaigns. So we don't need the "fix" that was in fact nothing but the removing of a good feature.


---------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

Kampagne für IL-2 1.2: I-16 - Kampf im Kaukasus (Deutsch) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/kampagne.html)

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:04 AM
I play dynamic campaigns most of the time and I really hate to see dissapearing aircraft...

Let 'em crash while taxiing when you are not able to fix this problem I say - or fix the crashing problems.

I encountered ground collisions only a few times during hundreds of dynamic campaign missions.

Now I encounter dissapearing planes ALL THE TIME in every mission...

I hate it...but I still love this game...- Please fix it - or tell us how to change the code to get the "old" problem back...

Regards, Sven




Message Edited on 09/12/0309:05AM by Sauhatz

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:07 AM
All 3 hands in the air!

I'd never join a club that would have ME as a member!!.

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:20 AM
Already voted, but that was last week, so...

BUMP!


SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 04:18 PM
weekly BUMP

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RAAF_Kuky