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View Full Version : The snapstall of the FW-190...



Stigler_9_JG52
08-04-2005, 10:02 AM

Udidtoo
08-04-2005, 10:54 AM
You forgot to add a very relaitive option i.e "If it doesn't ammount to a clear advantage on HL we'll throw our teddies out the pram until its removed"

Sorry Stigler. I've seen so much posting recently just to take a pee on someone else' favorite ride/team/pilots/nations/politics/etc that I had to give it a try.

I fail to grasp the appeal.

faustnik
08-04-2005, 11:24 AM
I can try testing it Stigler. I always concentrate on staying fast in the 190 and try never to get anywhere near a stall. The tactic you describe would be the opposite of what I am trying to do it the Fw190. Even if it worked, you would loose all your speed.

There is no more "instability" in the Fw190 roll rate. It has been slowed considerably in 4.01, to below historic levels.

p1ngu666
08-04-2005, 11:24 AM
not sure how controled it was, think u ended upside down very fast, doubt u could stop it where u wanted..

Stigler_9_JG52
08-04-2005, 12:45 PM
@Udidtoo:
Not sure what to make of your reply. My intention is definitely not to "pee on" the FW190. I happen to like the plane. Just wondering how its drivers feel about how it's represented in the sim. Try not to read a motive into my question: it really is "just a question" I'm posing.

@pingu:
I'd think, even if you couldn't control it to the extent you would, say, an 8-point roll, I would think that if you could control the timing of the snap, then turn it into a Split-S or diving max perf turn, that would qualify as "controllable". I suppose the key here would be controlling when it happened to a degree where it could be quickly used a second after you suddenly saw an La5 bearing in on you for a shot. As opposed to simply dealing with it when it reared its head (unplanned).

My experience with this "trait" (both in IL-2 in some versions, and in other sims) is that it was an instability that had to be managed by "pre-feeding" rudder into turns, right hand turns specifically, before banking and pulling back on the stick (as opposed to smoothly coordinating all three inputs to create a nice turn). If this failed, a nice right turn could end up with me turtled on my back, inverted left. I never felt I had the expertise in a FW190 to feel I could use it as an escape maneuver, or could time it: it was something that would happen if I didn't manage the plane properly.

And, as input to Faustnik, this didn't need to be at or even near stall speed to happen. This could be an accelerated snap that could happen any time you wanted to make a change in direction or sometimes even in attitude (e.g., going from level flight to a precise divebombing AoA, or even recovering from a boom gunnery pass into a zoom at a funky, "non-level" bank).

As a point of comparison, this will happen in the F4Us if you horse 'em around too much without minding the throttle. The question would apply to that plane, too: is this phenomenon controllable, or something that is to be avoided and only reacted to? (I'd think in the Corsair, the answer would be that it would be something to avoid, since the tendency to result in a really nasty uncontrolled spin is greater than in a FW190)

Udidtoo
08-04-2005, 01:17 PM
Stig, my post was in no way meant to hint that you pee'd on anything. Rather its just a comment on the general tone of the board of late.

Its been sliding back into a cycle where a few people can't seem to resist jumping into any topic to make sure that their agenda's are front and center. There words 'dead' flog' and 'horse'come to mind.

I just randomly picked this topic on the spur of the moment as it was ,because from observation that's how one does it you see. The fact that my post has nothing at all to do with your topic is also, from an observational standpoint an established pattern.

I thought that I'd try braying loud and long that "The P-38 is a lamer" or "All the blue flyers are Nazi lovers" and people would clap me on the back and tell me what a funny guy I am. Then I remembered that people who find 5 pages of that BS funny and myself would have very little in common and I certainly don't need them to stroke my ego everyday.

So that being said I assure you I won't hijack your thread further and I'm sorry for confusing you. Hope you get the feedback you desire and good hunting.

danjama
08-04-2005, 01:18 PM
well ive been flying the corsair and 190 intensely as they are so **** beautiful, and i think this maneuver/tactic is moddeled pretty well. I can use the maneuver u describe in a controlled manner in both the f4u and 190, but whether it puts me at an advantage is questionable. I think in a F4u, the answer is yes, in a 190, i think it picks up speed too slowly. However, to your original question, the answer is yes. P.S. the 190 is beautiful

NorrisMcWhirter
08-04-2005, 02:49 PM
Its been sliding back into a cycle where a few people can't seem to resist jumping into any topic to make sure that their agenda's are front and center. There words 'dead' flog' and 'horse'come to mind.

Only it's not flogging a dead horse. We know from experience that 'a big push' of opinion/sentiment (and it's rarely more than that) voiced on these forums can influence the game. I won't mention specific examples.

If Peter Snow was here with his 'swingometer', I'd wager that he'd be forecasting a shift in the next patch.

Ta,
Norris

Stigler_9_JG52
08-04-2005, 05:58 PM
Well, if it makes you feel any better, let me go on the record as saying I have no agenda on whether Oleg makes a change to the FM in regards to this based on what the vote says. I'm interested in hearing what FW drivers think about this historical perspective on the plane's performance. This is also the sort of thing that does not get "flight tested" and graphed. It's a plane quirk.

That's a totally separate issue from whether Oleg and his team make changes based on only hard data or based on the direction and velocity of the wind. I have my opinion on that subject, but won't go into it here.

MEGILE
08-04-2005, 06:06 PM
The severity of the stall has no doubt been reduced in this patch, and unrealistically so, but thats merely my opinion.
At times you can snap, but recover immediatly, in what LS terms the fish flop. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
If Oleg changes it however, I just hope he doesn't go over board.

p1ngu666
08-04-2005, 06:49 PM
i doubt ud use it on dive bombing, as uve got bombs attached and u could get disorinated and or out of control.

also i dont think they could do it at extra high speed, as they probably didnt have the control authority to pull really hard and fast on the stick.

it was probably like driving a rally car, u arent always in control, but u plan ahead and drive from point to point where u choose your way.

its a handy ability for sure, and buys the 190 a few seconds, which could be critical.. and u will probably go into a blind spot of the following aircraft..

Udidtoo
08-04-2005, 08:19 PM
After tooling around in QMB for the last 1 1 and 1/2 hours I voted 2. I can initiate that particuler behaivor but I wouldn't go as far as claiming I was controlling it.

Certainly doesn't mean it isn't modelled correctly or incorrectly and by no means does it mean that more experianced 190 flyers couldn't use it to their advantage. I found there is to long of a time after forceing the flip that I am vulnerable. Anyone with the sense to stay high and decent aim would not take long to exploit that moment.

I would venture to guess that just as with all the other never ending debates here if it weighs in on the + side of the equation and its one of your favorite rides it will be lauded.If its one of your favorite nemisis then it will be completly over modelled dreck.

Now before the "We just want historical accuracy" begins I want to add that I've never seen a post from red or blue in over 2 years where anyone said "Man, that planes my baby but Oleg thats just silly that ability you've given it is just gonzo. Please tone it down."

I would agree with P1ngu that it is almost certainly put you in a blind spot for a few shakes but smart persuit doesn't have to see you to know where your going and it bled to much energy for my comfort.

Atomic_Marten
08-04-2005, 08:28 PM
What is a snapstall? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

VW-IceFire
08-04-2005, 09:09 PM
It rolls slower than before so its harder to produce but I have managed a few "controlled" snapstalls and it does work. But as Faustnik points out, its contrary to what you want the FW190 to do...and its sort of a desperate move.

I find myself doing them rather close to the ground too which makes them all the more scarry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stigler_9_JG52
08-04-2005, 09:16 PM
Marten, a snapstall is like a "mini spin", but it happens chiefly along the nose-to tail axis of your aircraft.

Picture this: you want to make a right turn. You bank to the right, you pull back on the stick, and then, whooop! you're yanked out of the turn and out of the bank to the left and you end up inverted or inverted left bank. This happens in half a second or less; hence the "snap". At various times, Bf109Fs would do this a LOT, even if you had a rudder-assisted, coordinated turn.

Several IL-2 planes exhibit this tendency, sometimes with several snaps in different directions, defeating your attempts to regain controlled flight.

LStarosta
08-04-2005, 10:01 PM
Stglr is just trying to hate on all my favorite aircraft.

Badsight.
08-04-2005, 10:56 PM
LStarosta please , Stigler is trying to have a serious discussion here

NonWonderDog
08-04-2005, 11:17 PM
But, but, but... stalling on purpose is a cheat! No one would do it in combat! The people on this forum told me so! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif


Seriously, though, snaprolls work pretty well. It's not really something unique to the 190 (and it shouldn't be), it's just a bit easier in the 190 than in other planes because of the naturally high roll rate and instability. The 109 snaproll has been toned down a little in 4.01, true, but I thought it was kind of absurd before. It seems good now, but what do I know?