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View Full Version : Found a big flaw in the story line



MattyCap
04-26-2011, 08:16 PM
at the end of assassins creed 2 where you play as Desmond, that girl (lily?) gives you the hidden blade i noticed that she gives you the blade from AC2.

BUT seeing as that hidden blade dissapeard or something at the begging of brotherhood and he gets a new one which is armourd and covers his entire forearem, she she be giving you that one at the end of AC2?

and desmond will be like "whats this? its different" and she could say "we'll work that out later"

thoughts?

phil.llllll
04-26-2011, 09:19 PM
There's much bigger holes in the story line than that. But really, it's not a flaw, just a reused asset.

I guess it could be argued why they don't go out of the way to make sure things like that are changed but it's probably not that important in the end - else they wouldn't make Desmond's outfit change with each game either.

Zokuno
04-26-2011, 09:21 PM
Her name is Lucy.

If you look at the picture below it shows the design Ezio had on his hidden blade BEFORE the siege. You can see a fully enclosed wrist section and the assassin's symbol.

http://images.wikia.com/assassinscreed/images/2/25/Zw-acb-hidden-blade.jpg

Now look at this picture closely. You can see that Desmond's hidden blade only has straps where the enclosed wrist section is supposed to be, hence proving that they are not in fact the same hidden blades.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110214112252/assassinscreed/images/thumb/b/b5/Health_Idea.png/400px-Health_Idea.png

phil.llllll
04-26-2011, 09:22 PM
^He said AC2.

Zokuno
04-26-2011, 09:36 PM
Well after watching a youtube video of the end of AC2 I have found that they wear almost the same looking hidden blades. However I highly doubt that they would be the same blades, I suspect that Ezio's Hidden Blade, had it survived until 2012, would be too old to be remotely able to kill someone with.

Also Ezio's hidden blade doesn't disappear during the siege, don't you remember him putting it on before he jumps out of the hole in the villa?

Ureh
04-26-2011, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by MattyCap:
BUT seeing as that hidden blade dissapeard or something at the begging of brotherhood and he gets a new one which is armourd and covers his entire forearem, she she be giving you that one at the end of AC2?

So... because his hidden blade from AC2 disappears after he faints it means that it can never be found again? That doesn't make sense.

Mahiavelli probably took it off Ezio and put it somewhere else.

What we should question is if something that old can still be used. Maybe the hidden blade given to Desmond in AC2 is actually just a similar one and not the same one Ezio had. OR the devs did mean to give Desmond a unique blade but didn't have enough time (or were too lazy) to design it.

Either way I don't think this is a flaw in the plot.

MattyCap
04-26-2011, 11:35 PM
yeah, i was exagerating a bit. but this does show some of the attention to detail the devs are missing or if there is something they are not telling us...

and i thought i read somewhere that altair uses a rare awesomely awesome metal for the blade, i presuming the giovanni auditore did the same?

CFord664
04-27-2011, 06:30 AM
I'm surprised no one thinks the Assassins couldn't recreate a hidden blade from the data in the Animus...

Abeonis
04-27-2011, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by MattyCap:
at the end of assassins creed 2 where you play as Desmond, that girl (lily?) gives you the hidden blade i noticed that she gives you the blade from AC2.

BUT seeing as that hidden blade dissapeard or something at the begging of brotherhood and he gets a new one which is armourd and covers his entire forearem, she she be giving you that one at the end of AC2?

and desmond will be like "whats this? its different" and she could say "we'll work that out later"

thoughts?

Ezio doesn't lose that hidden blade, he's wearing it when he faints during his journey to Rome. He does lose the second hidden blade, and all his Codex weapons, but not his father's blade.

TwentyGlyphs
04-27-2011, 09:39 AM
I think the main point of this is that Desmond had one hidden blade at the end of AC2, and then had a different one at the beginning of ACB. You're given the impression that ACB's present day sequence picks up right where AC2's ended, but I don't think that's true.

Desmond's clothes also change between AC2 and ACB, and it's a drastic enough change that I don't think you can chalk it up to just the developers wanting to update his look. His clothes really didn't change between AC1 and AC2, but now he's got on a hoodie that seems like it comes from the Assassins instead of Abstergo. Why update the hoodie and radically change the hidden blade and not show just a small scene where he changes into these new clothes?

I think there's missing time of about a week in the present that's not shown between AC2 and ACB. Going off the dates of emails from AC1 and ACB and knowing that AC2 appears to have been only 2 days, the one Desmond first entered the Animus 2.0 and then the next day, AC2 ended on September 9, 2012. But the first email you see in ACB is from September 17. Something's not adding up in the present, and is also alluded to at the end of ACB and then the DLC where William says that Desmond has always found his way out of comas in the past.

lilbacchant
04-27-2011, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
I think there's missing time of about a week in the present that's not shown between AC2 and ACB. Going off the dates of emails from AC1 and ACB and knowing that AC2 appears to have been only 2 days, the one Desmond first entered the Animus 2.0 and then the next day, AC2 ended on September 9, 2012. But the first email you see in ACB is from September 17. Something's not adding up in the present, and is also alluded to at the end of ACB and then the DLC where William says that Desmond has always found his way out of comas in the past.

You raise an interesting point. It takes Dez five days or so to relive Altair's memories in AC1, two days for Ezio in AC2, but a whole month for Ezio's memories in AC:B.

You're right. That doesn't add up ... at all.

Abeonis
04-27-2011, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by lilbacchant:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
I think there's missing time of about a week in the present that's not shown between AC2 and ACB. Going off the dates of emails from AC1 and ACB and knowing that AC2 appears to have been only 2 days, the one Desmond first entered the Animus 2.0 and then the next day, AC2 ended on September 9, 2012. But the first email you see in ACB is from September 17. Something's not adding up in the present, and is also alluded to at the end of ACB and then the DLC where William says that Desmond has always found his way out of comas in the past.

You raise an interesting point. It takes Dez five days or so to relive Altair's memories in AC1, two days for Ezio in AC2, but a whole month for Ezio's memories in AC:B.

You're right. That doesn't add up ... at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Time is relative in a game. We don't see every single waking moment of their lives as we play it. For example, you might never have left the Animus, but we know in-game that he does, he goes to sleep, they go out and get food. Canonically, Desmond only spends about two hours a day in the thing; but we're saved the hassle of having to constantly get in and out of the Animus...

Also, on the origina point, Desmond doesn't have a different hidden blade at the beginning of Brotherhood, he's merely taken the bracer off, likely to avoid garnering attention.

TwentyGlyphs
04-27-2011, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Abeonis:
Time is relative in a game. We don't see every single waking moment of their lives as we play it. For example, you might never have left the Animus, but we know in-game that he does, he goes to sleep, they go out and get food. Canonically, Desmond only spends about two hours a day in the thing; but we're saved the hassle of having to constantly get in and out of the Animus...

Also, on the origina point, Desmond doesn't have a different hidden blade at the beginning of Brotherhood, he's merely taken the bracer off, likely to avoid garnering attention.

At first I thought it was the same blade with the bracer removed, but the more I looked at the blade in AC2, it looks like it's not really a separate piece from the bracer. It's also never mentioned that Desmond spends only 2 hours in the Animus at a time. I'm pretty sure Abstergo didn't care enough about him to limit him. Either way, some fishy things are going on in the present.

Yes time is relative and we may not see Desmond enter and leave the Animus every time in Brotherhood, but we do know from the emails in AC1 and ACB how much time passes for the present story. We don't see everything, but we know it takes him 7 days of work in AC1, and about 3 weeks in ACB. There are no emails in AC2 to gauge time by, but Lucy specifically mentions at the end of the first day in the Animus, about halfway through Ezio's story, that Desmond's adoption rate is fantastic, and "another day or two and we'll be done."

There are several other details that don't add up, like the truck that the Assassins drive having bullet holes in it when you see it while setting up the power devices in Monterrigioni in ACB. Whatever caused them was never shown to us, which presumes that something happened between the games that we're not being shown for a reason. At the end of AC2, Lucy says they have a cabin up north, but in ACB you show up in Monterrigioni, which is south of Florence, their likely location in AC2's present. I think that Desmond and company went to that cabin and were found or something and wound up in Monterrigioni as their last option.

It also does seem like there's something weird about ACB taking so long in the present, when in AC2 Desmond went so much faster. I wonder if Desmond is in a coma during a lot of the game's present. Vidic did say in the first game, "Then we'll induce a coma, and continue our work. When we're done, you'll be left to die. Truth be told, the only reason you're still conscious is because this approach saves us time." Seems like someone reliving memories in a coma goes at a much slower rate than someone consciously doing it like Desmond did in the first two games. Also, how come Desmond can leave the sanctuary in Monterrigioni and explore whenever he wants, but Lucy says in her email in response to Shaun suggesting they go out for drinks that Desmond can't leave the sanctuary and she won't leave him alone?

phil.llllll
04-27-2011, 09:00 PM
Going back to the bracer matter, it's simple: the devs have always made sure Desmond's outfit was a modern day reflection of his ancestor's in some way (not to mention Desmond himself).

In AC1 his hoodie had an overlapping line design (on his hood and shoulders) and his blue jeans had an acid washed look down the front and back, all which echoed Altair's outfit.

In AC2 they updated his hood so it was pointed like Ezio's. They updated it again in ACB and they found a modern day solution to the bracer design which was to take it off and give him a tatoo (he didn't do any fighting so they avoided the practical problems associated with it).

The devs haven't bothered to explain it because I doubt they think it's that important.


Originally posted by Abeonis:
Canonically, Desmond only spends about two hours a day in the thing; but we're saved the hassle of having to constantly get in and out of the Animus...

Where did you see this? I don't remember them ever talking about how much time he spends in the Animus.


Originally posted by coryplayspiano:

Yes time is relative and we may not see Desmond enter and leave the Animus every time in Brotherhood, but we do know from the emails in AC1 and ACB how much time passes for the present story. We don't see everything, but we know it takes him 7 days of work in AC1, and about 3 weeks in ACB. There are no emails in AC2 to gauge time by, but Lucy specifically mentions at the end of the first day in the Animus, about halfway through Ezio's story, that Desmond's adoption rate is fantastic, and "another day or two and we'll be done."

There are several other details that don't add up, like the truck that the Assassins drive having bullet holes in it when you see it while setting up the power devices in Monterrigioni in ACB. Whatever caused them was never shown to us, which presumes that something happened between the games that we're not being shown for a reason. At the end of AC2, Lucy says they have a cabin up north, but in ACB you show up in Monterrigioni, which is south of Florence, their likely location in AC2's present. I think that Desmond and company went to that cabin and were found or something and wound up in Monterrigioni as their last option.

I think that the van had those holes at the beginning of AC2 as well (I could be wrong though). Also, while it looks similar there's nothing absolute that says we're in Florence in AC2; though I guess what you said could very well be as it makes sense. But really what I think it boils down to is that the devs are really getting ahead of themselves here and not giving the attention to the story that it deserves.


Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
It also does seem like there's something weird about ACB taking so long in the present, when in AC2 Desmond went so much faster. I wonder if Desmond is in a coma during a lot of the game's present. Vidic did say in the first game, "Then we'll induce a coma, and continue our work. When we're done, you'll be left to die. Truth be told, the only reason you're still conscious is because this approach saves us time." Seems like someone reliving memories in a coma goes at a much slower rate than someone consciously doing it like Desmond did in the first two games. Also, how come Desmond can leave the sanctuary in Monterrigioni and explore whenever he wants, but Lucy says in her email in response to Shaun suggesting they go out for drinks that Desmond can't leave the sanctuary and she won't leave him alone?

Not sure how that makes sense at all, as we clearly spend a lot of time with Desmond in the present.

TwentyGlyphs
04-28-2011, 12:08 AM
We never see the van/truck in AC2. I suppose the bullet holes could have been some kind of design decision, like maybe the truck has just seen a lot of action. But it seems highly specific like there might be a purpose behind it.

The only reason I mention Desmond being in a coma is that the present day "Leave Animus" sequences just don't add up. Desmond collects artifacts that are just lying around after 500 years and are not available before entering the Animus for the first time in Monterrigioni or after leaving for the last time. The artifacts that are displayed on the shelf are gone when you leave the Animus after Sequence 9. The mysterious red trail is the same as the artifacts it's there only when you choose the Leave Animus option. Just like with the overall secret of 2012 and The Truth, there's some secret here that's being hinted at but is impossible to figure out based on the info they've given us. It's possible that when Desmond hits the Leave Animus option he's not really leaving but staying inside another VR program. I couldn't begin to tell you why, but it's a possible theory to explain some of the weirdness.

These could all be detailed observations that take the game too seriously, but this game has set itself up as being quite detailed when it comes to historical dates and conspiracies, email messages, glyphs and the like. For all these inconsistencies to simply be a giant series of mistakes seems unlikely.

Ureh
04-28-2011, 12:41 AM
Might be remembering this incorrectly but didn't Lucy say, af end of ac2, that they were gonna go to a small cabin up north?

Abeonis
04-28-2011, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by phil.llllll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Abeonis:
Canonically, Desmond only spends about two hours a day in the thing; but we're saved the hassle of having to constantly get in and out of the Animus...

Where did you see this? I don't remember them ever talking about how much time he spends in the Animus. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe it's in one of the emails you can read in Brotherhood, I could be wrong as to the source though, though I do know for a fact he doesn't spend very long in the Animus per day.

phil.llllll
04-28-2011, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
We never see the van/truck in AC2. I suppose the bullet holes could have been some kind of design decision, like maybe the truck has just seen a lot of action. But it seems highly specific like there might be a purpose behind it.

You can see it at the beginning of AC2 when Desmond gets out of the trunk of the car. Not sure if it has the holes though or not.


Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
The only reason I mention Desmond being in a coma is that the present day "Leave Animus" sequences just don't add up. Desmond collects artifacts that are just lying around after 500 years and are not available before entering the Animus for the first time in Monterrigioni or after leaving for the last time. The artifacts that are displayed on the shelf are gone when you leave the Animus after Sequence 9. The mysterious red trail is the same as the artifacts it's there only when you choose the Leave Animus option. Just like with the overall secret of 2012 and The Truth, there's some secret here that's being hinted at but is impossible to figure out based on the info they've given us. It's possible that when Desmond hits the Leave Animus option he's not really leaving but staying inside another VR program. I couldn't begin to tell you why, but it's a possible theory to explain some of the weirdness.

So wait... when he gets into the animus for the first time in the sanctuary, that's when the coma starts? And at the end when he goes to the coliseum, he gets out? Possible then?. Sure but I don't think it's very likely.

An easier explaination is this: the devs just wanted to give the player something to do outside the animus, else there'd really never be a reason to go outside at all. And at the end, they could've just had them moved to the van before they left.




Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
These could all be detailed observations that take the game too seriously, but this game has set itself up as being quite detailed when it comes to historical dates and conspiracies, email messages, glyphs and the like. For all these inconsistencies to simply be a giant series of mistakes seems unlikely.

Considering the giant series of mistakes that made their way into other parts of Brotherhood, I wouldn't rule it out.


Originally posted by Abeonis:
I believe it's in one of the emails you can read in Brotherhood, I could be wrong as to the source though, though I do know for a fact he doesn't spend very long in the Animus per day.

It's never mentioned, in emails or elsewhere, exactly how much time he spends in the animus. You could be right though as it makes sense that they wouldn't want to keep him in too long if not needed.

Oatkeeper
04-28-2011, 10:47 AM
A better question is when did Desmond and Lucy change outfits when shawn and rebecca are still dressed like they are in AC2

And why did Lucy get fish lips for AC2... did she eat something she was alergic too? did the swelling go down in Brotherhood?

reini03
04-28-2011, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Oatkeeper:
A better question is when did Desmond and Lucy change outfits when shawn and rebecca are still dressed like they are in AC2

And why did Lucy get fish lips for AC2... did she eat something she was alergic too? did the swelling go down in Brotherhood?

They probably changed clothes in the van, while this doesn't seem very important to me. And Lucy uses lipstick in AC2 and ACB.

Ureh
04-28-2011, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Oatkeeper:
A better question is when did Desmond and Lucy change outfits when shawn and rebecca are still dressed like they are in AC2

And why did Lucy get fish lips for AC2... did she eat something she was alergic too? did the swelling go down in Brotherhood?

Rebecca looked very different as well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
She looked better in AC2.

swiftkinfe
04-28-2011, 02:41 PM
The bracer to me was he got rid of the vambrace itself and just used the straps to make the blade better concealed.However to be honest I have walked around so many places with my bracer and no one really noticed or even cared.It was probably just to make it better concealed.

On Ezio losing the bracer I think it was just taken to give Ezio a better tool to block with.As remember that bracer didn't have much plating so the armored route would've been better.And since Ezio came back to the villa in Altairs armor I didn't see the Brotherhood bracer on him so it was most likely the AC2 bracer.And Machiaveli(spelling?) was just holding on to it.

TwentyGlyphs
04-28-2011, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by phil.llllll:
You can see it at the beginning of AC2 when Desmond gets out of the trunk of the car. Not sure if it has the holes though or not.

I checked this in the actual game today, and the truck is there when you first get out of the car in AC2. It has no holes in its drivers side though, which it does in Brotherhood.


Originally posted by phil.llllll:
So wait... when he gets into the animus for the first time in the sanctuary, that's when the coma starts? And at the end when he goes to the coliseum, he gets out? Possible then?. Sure but I don't think it's very likely.

An easier explaination is this: the devs just wanted to give the player something to do outside the animus, else there'd really never be a reason to go outside at all. And at the end, they could've just had them moved to the van before they left.

That's what may have happened during the Brotherhood present day sequences, yes. I have no evidence, just a feeling. And they keep dropping all these little clues that lead you nowhere -- the artifacts, the red trail, things not feeling right about how they talk about Desmond and the bleeding effect behind his back, Subject 16 saying it's much later than Desmond thinks, the weird glitch that happens after you talk to 16 that has never been fixed, the DLC voices talking about Desmond being in a coma. Maybe I just want to believe that there's a cool revelation waiting to happen, but it does all seem rather calculated instead of just haphazardly thrown together. Yes the game had some major bugs, but those happen at the end of the project when time is running out. Story and features for the game are ironed out much sooner and I find it hard to believe that stuff like artifacts just lying around Monterrigioni would be proposed for no good reason other than a scavenger hunt without a better explanation.

Now for some actual comparisons of the hidden blades, here are pictures of Desmond's blade at the end of AC2 and the end of ACB:

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2637/desmondbladeac2.jpg (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/desmondbladeac2.jpg/)

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/4650/desmondbladeacb.jpg (http://img607.imageshack.us/i/desmondbladeacb.jpg/)

The blade from AC2 is an exact match to Ezio's blade shown on the first page of this topic from Sequence 2 of Brotherhood. Also notice how Desmond's blade from Brotherhood has metal hexagonal bolts all around the actual blade. Bolts like that are modern, and it looks like this blade has been repaired. It appears to take the blade mechanism and bolt it onto the leather piece with the 3 straps. This doesn't prove anything, but it's interesting to look at and see the level of detail that went into the Brotherhood blade, whether or not there's a backstory to it.

For other comparisons, see the wiki page on hidden blades for some great pics of a lot of the hidden blades: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Hidden_Blade.

phil.llllll
04-29-2011, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
The blade from AC2 is an exact match to Ezio's blade shown on the first page of this topic from Sequence 2 of Brotherhood.

It's without a doubt the same blade (as in the same model). Whether it's the "same" blade though is another story entirely.

SwitchBang
04-29-2011, 07:35 PM
An even bigger hole in the story is the burn mark Ezio receives on his left ring finger around the end of AC2 but in brotherhood no such burn mark exists on his finger... now that is something they should have thought about.