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mmarsh
05-13-2010, 08:51 AM
My old Thrustmaster broke again. I need a new HOTAS system primary to play IL-2 and BOB:SOW

I am looking at these

1. CH Fighterstick/Pro Throttle/Pro Peddles

2. Logitech G940

3. Saitek X-65F. Force Sensing on a WWII aircraft? Some X-Y bleed issues

4. Thrustmaster. I am not a big fan of TM because while they make a good product its too flimsy. We will see what happens with the Warthog. TM products have always been prone to breaking, I have lost count of the number of TM sticjs that have broke.

Billy_DeLyon
05-13-2010, 09:14 AM
I have CH and love it. I expect that will be the overwhelming recommendation here.

Chivas
05-13-2010, 10:43 AM
I had or still have a G940, CH, X52, Cougar, and MSFF2. The only ones I wound recommend are the MSFF2, and the Cougar Throttle.

The G940 may turn out to be ok when they release the new 4.09 drivers in the coming weeks.

I have no interest in force sensing technology but I'm very interested in seeing reviews from the Warthog. Unfortunately most reviews are total bullcrap.

Urufu_Shinjiro
05-13-2010, 03:42 PM
G940 all the way, I freekin love this thing, combined with Mikkiowls Il-2 Multi-Throttle program it can't be beat. More buttons and rotaries than you can shake a stick at.

Ba5tard5word
05-13-2010, 03:42 PM
CH is definitely very good. takes a bit of getting used to the big stick and I kind of wish it had more buttons, but it feels very solid and gives a lot more control than my old Logitech 3D Extreme Pro.

deskpilot
05-13-2010, 04:11 PM
I love ch stuff and have their fighterstick, throttle and pedals. all of which I bought second and, all of which were several years old, being gameport models, all of which work flawlessly.
the most buttons etc may be great but if it doesn't last...

WTE_Ibis
05-13-2010, 11:09 PM
I totally recommend CH gear, it just works and keeps on working. Tuff stuff!

Urufu_Shinjiro,

What's the force feedback like m8?
I'm thinking about getting a second Hotas.
thanks.
Ibis.



.

Chivas
05-14-2010, 12:03 AM
The G940's return to center forces and forcefeedback forces have a very large deadzone around the center. This can be a problem when trying to get bullets on target. This causes unnecessary stick stirring to get the kill shot.

Hopefully this will be addressed in the new 5.09 driver due out shortly.

jermin122
05-14-2010, 12:12 AM
MSFF2 + X45 or X52 Throttle if you are on a budget

Black_Ops7
05-14-2010, 03:56 AM
CH Fighterstick/Pro Throttle/Pro Peddles

Go for CH Fighterstick/Pro Throttle/Pro Peddles
Then you wont be replacing broken stuff and not playing tech guy on your own hardware but instead spend time flying.


by the way, i told you guys the price of the TM warthog was 312 euro but now TM on its site says 400 euro!
And we get more info on 19-05-2010

http://www.thrustmaster.com/pr...t.aspx?ProductID=205 (http://www.thrustmaster.com/product.aspx?ProductID=205)

mmarsh
05-14-2010, 09:10 AM
Hello all

Thanks for the comments. Yes my bird is still grounded.

An update:

I have narrowed it down to two, the CH family or the G940.

I know people are big fans of the CH Fighter-stick, but my mental block with it the system looks obsolete compared to the G940 and others. Compared to the G940 No Force feedback, No Dual throttle, fewer trim dials, fewer buttons, etc.

This is why I hesitate, can anyone offer a counter-argument aside from reliability?

Another problem is that its the sole HOTAS that I haven't been able to test it in the stores. So I am buying blind.

One other point: the CH (PR person) on their forums has recently said there will be no new commercial products for 2010, that their entire focus was on military contracts. The famous CH Warthog I hear around here and SimHQ is for military contracts for the time being. That means there if I go CH, there is no point to wait to see what comes along.

The G940 feels nice, but I am aware that there a some software glitches. On paper in terms of features it seems superior.

I understand from Logitech that the 5.09 drivers are to be released in a matter of days. We shall see if this resolves this issues.

Can anyone give a comparison between CH or G940 only?

horseback
05-14-2010, 10:48 AM
CH Program Manager Software is very good; it is the only software I know of that allows the user to combine up to three controllers into one single controller. My Combatstick/Pro Throttle/Pro Pedals rig gives me well over thirty buttons and six usable axes (the second brake axis on the pedals is useless in Il-2, and I don’t use the mini-stick on the Throttle). That’s without using the three mode option, which could triple the number of available buttons.

By combining my three CH controllers into one controller that is sensed by the game, I am able to use a ‘vibrating’ game controller strapped next to my stick base to give me a pseudo FFB effect, an extra throttle quadrant for my prop pitch and trim settings plus a few extra buttons, and a Saitek Game Commander, which gives me another 20+ buttons.

With all these combined with a TIR4 Pro, I feel as though I have more than enough bells and whistles to satisfy my inner geek. In addition, the precision and reliability of the CH components is as good as the day I bought them over seven years ago (and that is VERY good).

I had a number of Logitech sticks before I switched to a Microsoft Sidewinder (which in turn was retired by the CH gear), and they were all wonderful for about three months at most before they started futzing out. Logitech stuff to me is like the hot chick who was everything you ever wanted in a woman except reliable; somehow, I just can’t bring myself to believe that she’s really changed this time.

cheers

horseback

Urufu_Shinjiro
05-14-2010, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:


Urufu_Shinjiro,

What's the force feedback like m8?
I'm thinking about getting a second Hotas.
thanks.
Ibis.


I like it, it's better than the Saitek Evo Force if you've tried that one. It's also very adjustable in the software (most FFB sticks are but this one has a nice range of force). I have even seen a few people say the G940 FFB is as good as their MS FFB2 or better.




Originally posted by Chivas:
The G940's return to center forces and forcefeedback forces have a very large deadzone around the center. This can be a problem when trying to get bullets on target. This causes unnecessary stick stirring to get the kill shot.

Hopefully this will be addressed in the new 5.09 driver due out shortly.

Actually, I find quite the opposite. I stopped using my saitek Evo Force due to the FFB interfering with fine movements in the center area, i.e. when shooting. The G940 does indeed produce less force in an area around the center but this just means I have very fine control in the middle. Someone from Logitech at one time said this was intentional just for that reason, but a lot of people have complained so it's being addressed in a software update. Logitech also said their FFB implementation is supposed to have a ton of features that we're not experiencing now because developers have to implement them and FFB has not been as refined in what it's capable of in the past.


P.S. As far as Il2 is concerned with the G940, the axis reversal bug is SOLVED for IL2, look for MikkiOwls Multi-throttle program, not only does it give you dual throttle functionality in Il2, it give you differential breaking with the toe brakes, and it solves the reversal bug, AND it lets you control the lights on the throttle.

Chivas
05-14-2010, 04:33 PM
Actually, I find quite the opposite. I stopped using my saitek Evo Force due to the FFB interfering with fine movements in the center area, i.e. when shooting. The G940 does indeed produce less force in an area around the center but this just means I have very fine control in the middle. Someone from Logitech at one time said this was intentional just for that reason, but a lot of people have complained so it's being addressed in a software update. Logitech also said their FFB implementation is supposed to have a ton of features that we're not experiencing now because developers have to implement them and FFB has not been as refined in what it's capable of in the past.

You may have fine control of the stick in the force deadzone, but that is not what annoys me about the G940. Its the abrupt change in force as you transit thru the deadzone that can throw off your accuracy.

I have much the same problem while transiting the X Y axis with the clunky gimbals of CH joystick.

Urufu_Shinjiro
05-14-2010, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Chivas:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Actually, I find quite the opposite. I stopped using my saitek Evo Force due to the FFB interfering with fine movements in the center area, i.e. when shooting. The G940 does indeed produce less force in an area around the center but this just means I have very fine control in the middle. Someone from Logitech at one time said this was intentional just for that reason, but a lot of people have complained so it's being addressed in a software update. Logitech also said their FFB implementation is supposed to have a ton of features that we're not experiencing now because developers have to implement them and FFB has not been as refined in what it's capable of in the past.

You may have fine control of the stick in the force deadzone, but that is not what annoys me about the G940. Its the abrupt change in force as you transit thru the deadzone that can throw off your accuracy.

I have much the same problem while transiting the X Y axis with the clunky gimbals of CH joystick. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you tried setting the spring effect strength setting to 50%? That seems to be the sweet spot for giving good resistance while smoothing out the very jolt you speak of.

Chivas
05-14-2010, 10:05 PM
Yes, tried from 0 to 100, for the spring forces and the same for force feedback with no suitable result. Atleast for me. As a matter of fact the different settings did not scale properly at all. It was all very frustrating. Hopefully the new drivers will be a major improvement. The MSFF2 drivers work very well with IL-2 so we know its possible.

irR4tiOn4L
05-15-2010, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Chivas:
I had or still have a G940, CH, X52, Cougar, and MSFF2. The only ones I wound recommend are the MSFF2, and the Cougar Throttle.

The G940 may turn out to be ok when they release the new 4.09 drivers in the coming weeks.

I have no interest in force sensing technology but I'm very interested in seeing reviews from the Warthog. Unfortunately most reviews are total bullcrap.

Just out of interest, why would you not recommend the others?

I happen to have an X52, and im rather happy with it - a bit of teflon based lubricant spray made the movement extremely smooth and its controls are rather well thought out.

I have had one issue with loss of calibration, and im wondering if that is also why youve not recommended it. I have to admit that if i knew the buyer would suffer from this issue as well, i would not recommend it either

WTE_Ibis
05-16-2010, 01:24 AM
Quote Chivas:

the same problem while transiting the X Y axis with the clunky gimbals of CH joystick.
----------------------------------------

Agree, my only complaint about CH, along with the counter intuative software.
But they never need adjusting and are unbreakable in my experience.
cheers.


.

Chivas
05-16-2010, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by irR4tiOn4L:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chivas:
I had or still have a G940, CH, X52, Cougar, and MSFF2. The only ones I wound recommend are the MSFF2, and the Cougar Throttle.

The G940 may turn out to be ok when they release the new 4.09 drivers in the coming weeks.

I have no interest in force sensing technology but I'm very interested in seeing reviews from the Warthog. Unfortunately most reviews are total bullcrap.

Just out of interest, why would you not recommend the others?

I happen to have an X52, and im rather happy with it - a bit of teflon based lubricant spray made the movement extremely smooth and its controls are rather well thought out.

I have had one issue with loss of calibration, and im wondering if that is also why youve not recommended it. I have to admit that if i knew the buyer would suffer from this issue as well, i would not recommend it either </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For me the X52 was the worst of the bunch. My particular X52 had a rather large hardwired deadzone that could not be adjusted out. It was rumoured that the deadzone was fixed in later models of the X52, but never confirmed by Saitek. The deadzone caused alot of stick stirring to get the kill shot. Those few extra seconds usually gets you killed by their wingman. Many people might not notice the deadzone and think they were just lousy shots. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Chivas
05-16-2010, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
Quote Chivas:

the same problem while transiting the X Y axis with the clunky gimbals of CH joystick.
----------------------------------------

Agree, my only complaint about CH, along with the counter intuative software.
But they never need adjusting and are unbreakable in my experience.
cheers.


.

I agree the CH is solidly built.

TheGrunch
05-16-2010, 05:54 AM
Logitech really have been titting around with those 5.09 drivers, haven't they? I've been waiting to see whether they were any good to decide whether or not I want to buy the damn thing. I wonder whether Logitech realise that FS players take a lot of care over choosing their equipment, and are generally quite willing to wait until a product's teething troubles are fixed before they buy it.

Urufu_Shinjiro
05-16-2010, 08:22 AM
Posted by a Moderator on the Logitech forum less than a week ago Re 5.09 drivers:


5.09 has passed WHQL, QA has given the 5.09 drivers a thumbs up, firmware update for G940 has been tested and is recoverable as to prevent bricking of the controller, installer RC has been written, and QA is testing the installer now. Actually, they had it as of last week. I'm just waiting for QA to approve the installer, and I'll post the link once it goes live on the FTP (Website update will go after it's posted on the FTP).



The software team included some gamepad improvements into 5.09 when given the chance, and the firmware updater has been improved. It's basically done and I'm just waiting for the QA team to finish the installer tests across all the languages we support.

TheGrunch
05-16-2010, 08:27 AM
Good to hear.

ROXunreal
05-16-2010, 10:10 AM
Yep, I plan on a new HOTAS for when SOW BOB comes out and so far G940 gets my vote, though I'll still wait it out until more time passes to see what people say...

mmarsh
05-17-2010, 03:20 AM
Update

I got the G940 -thanks for all the tips.

So far, its pretty sweet. My only grips are that software isn't *that* compatible with IL-1946, meaning that I had to set up the buttons and axises with both the Logitech software and IL-2 setup program.

It does work, but it takes a bit more time to set everything up. I wish Logitech had used a more detailed IL-2 profile, almost have the buttons are not even set.

My guess this more has to do with the fact that IL-2 engine is now so dated that it has issues in dealing with the new HOTAS systems. Hopefully Oleg with have included better HOTAS support with SOW.

The only other thing is that the stick movements is much looser that the stick I am used to, is there anyway to increase resistance? Otherwise I am sure Ill get used to it.

Chivas
05-17-2010, 11:06 AM
Yes you can change the stick resistance forces and forcefeedback forces. I can't tell you exactly where as I don't have the software loaded anymore.

BUT this is the problem with the G940 I hope they fix with the next 5.09 driver. Like I tried to warn you there is a large deadzone in the stick resistance(return to center forces) and forcefeedback forces. This is the sloppy center that many are complaining about.

Even the sliders used to change forces for both, slide from 0 to 100, but the scaling is very poor. This could be the incompatibility of the joystick drivers and game input drivers.

Urufu_Shinjiro
05-17-2010, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by mmarsh:
Update

I got the G940 -thanks for all the tips.

So far, its pretty sweet. My only grips are that software isn't *that* compatible with IL-1946, meaning that I had to set up the buttons and axises with both the Logitech software and IL-2 setup program.

It does work, but it takes a bit more time to set everything up. I wish Logitech had used a more detailed IL-2 profile, almost have the buttons are not even set.

My guess this more has to do with the fact that IL-2 engine is now so dated that it has issues in dealing with the new HOTAS systems. Hopefully Oleg with have included better HOTAS support with SOW.

The only other thing is that the stick movements is much looser that the stick I am used to, is there anyway to increase resistance? Otherwise I am sure Ill get used to it.

What problems are you having with the profile? I was able to set up every button in the profile just fine.

P.S. Did you get MikkOwls program yet? If not, do!

mmarsh
05-19-2010, 01:54 AM
Hi Urufu

No problems per say, its just that its abit annoying that you have to configure the Axis/Trim controls via the IL-2 hardware setup and the button controls via the logitech software. This was confirmed on logitechs website by their staff.

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/...-versions/m-p/413571 (http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gaming/Flight-System-G940-Setup-tips-IL-2-Sturmovik-all-versions/m-p/413571)

I havent got MikkOWls program yet...but I will!

One other annoyance is the "fire" button (red button that fires the cannons) is too close to the 4 way hat. I have big hands, so every time I press it the button my thumb rubs against the hat causing me took look left just as I fire.

I will have to remap the view hat elsewhere.