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View Full Version : What I'd like to see in the next FB patch



XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 03:12 AM
Before I'm accused of whining, let me say that IL2 & IL2:FB are the best WWII flight sims available now, bar none. I am very glad Oleg & crew had the passion and took the time to create these great sims (If they hadn't I'd still be playing EAW). Thanks Oleg!

Now, are they perfect? No, I (and apparently more than a few other people out there) don't think so. Will Oleg ever make everyone happy? No, and I can live with that. But I would like to register my opinion in the hope that he will see this and take note. So kind of think of this as a poll with my own personal comments.

Before starting let me say that:
1) I am not a pilot, but I did get to fly a Citibria once.
2) I am an aeronautical engineer (aerodynamicist with 20 years experience).
3) I have never flown a Bf-109 or any other WWII vintage a/c.
4) I have read my share of pilot memoirs from WWII (mostly German. Sorry Oleg, but until recently there hasn't been much to read from the Soviet side).

Ok, here's What I'd like to see in IL2:FB 1.11+ that was in IL2 1.2. I think these things were better left alone. I still don't understand what happened going from IL2 to IL2:FB. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

1) Faster throttle response. These are reciprocating engines in the 2000 hp class, not early turojets with slow spool up times.

2) Faster trim response. Hard for me to believe that the pitch response for trim is any slower than the pitch response for elevator, since it uses the same surface (or trim tabs).

3) The wind-buffet sound when I am near stall. Flow separation causes buffet, which is noisy and causes the a/c to shake. Listen to the rumbling noise and feel the vibration the next time you fly in an airliner and they deploy the spoilers to slow down and lose lift on descent. At higher speeds, you can even hear/feel the effects with full flaps. And this is on large transport a/c at low g with a sealed pressurized cabin.

4) The AI not able to see me when I am low and on his six (I've tested this in the mission builder builder). I've built missions using IL2 that now no longer work because a surprise bounce cannot be executed. Recall that Hartmann said that roughly 80% of his kills were on unsuspecting targets. Until this is fixed, so much for building missions that try to simulate a surprise bounce.


What I'd like to see in IL2:FB 1.11+ (or IL2 1.2+)

1) Damage modelling that affects pitch, roll and yaw effectiveness when elevator, aileron or rudder surfaces are shot away on the AI aircraft. I find it frustrating to see my adversary be able to maneuver as if nothing is wrong when he is missing significant pieces of his control surfaces.

2) Damage modeling that affects lift and drag (g capability and speed) when large gaping holes are shot in the wing. The lift/drag ratio of such surfaces is definitely degraded versus a clean wing.

3) Relative a/c performance that better represents historical outcomes. I'm not going to get into the ufo and luftwhiner arguments over specific a/c, but I do expect certain a/c to perform better in roll, turns or max speed than others, all other things (like pilot) being equal. Maybe I'm biased, since most of my reading is from German sources, but some lend-lease aircraft performance seems questionable too.

4) More time spent on the DM, FM and AI of existing a/c in the sim and less on fancier graphics and new a/c. (This comment is sure to be popular).

I really hope some of these suggestions are being worked in the next patch. In the meantime, I'll continue to play the original IL2 and hope for the best.

Regards!

Stevsky

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 03:12 AM
Before I'm accused of whining, let me say that IL2 & IL2:FB are the best WWII flight sims available now, bar none. I am very glad Oleg & crew had the passion and took the time to create these great sims (If they hadn't I'd still be playing EAW). Thanks Oleg!

Now, are they perfect? No, I (and apparently more than a few other people out there) don't think so. Will Oleg ever make everyone happy? No, and I can live with that. But I would like to register my opinion in the hope that he will see this and take note. So kind of think of this as a poll with my own personal comments.

Before starting let me say that:
1) I am not a pilot, but I did get to fly a Citibria once.
2) I am an aeronautical engineer (aerodynamicist with 20 years experience).
3) I have never flown a Bf-109 or any other WWII vintage a/c.
4) I have read my share of pilot memoirs from WWII (mostly German. Sorry Oleg, but until recently there hasn't been much to read from the Soviet side).

Ok, here's What I'd like to see in IL2:FB 1.11+ that was in IL2 1.2. I think these things were better left alone. I still don't understand what happened going from IL2 to IL2:FB. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

1) Faster throttle response. These are reciprocating engines in the 2000 hp class, not early turojets with slow spool up times.

2) Faster trim response. Hard for me to believe that the pitch response for trim is any slower than the pitch response for elevator, since it uses the same surface (or trim tabs).

3) The wind-buffet sound when I am near stall. Flow separation causes buffet, which is noisy and causes the a/c to shake. Listen to the rumbling noise and feel the vibration the next time you fly in an airliner and they deploy the spoilers to slow down and lose lift on descent. At higher speeds, you can even hear/feel the effects with full flaps. And this is on large transport a/c at low g with a sealed pressurized cabin.

4) The AI not able to see me when I am low and on his six (I've tested this in the mission builder builder). I've built missions using IL2 that now no longer work because a surprise bounce cannot be executed. Recall that Hartmann said that roughly 80% of his kills were on unsuspecting targets. Until this is fixed, so much for building missions that try to simulate a surprise bounce.


What I'd like to see in IL2:FB 1.11+ (or IL2 1.2+)

1) Damage modelling that affects pitch, roll and yaw effectiveness when elevator, aileron or rudder surfaces are shot away on the AI aircraft. I find it frustrating to see my adversary be able to maneuver as if nothing is wrong when he is missing significant pieces of his control surfaces.

2) Damage modeling that affects lift and drag (g capability and speed) when large gaping holes are shot in the wing. The lift/drag ratio of such surfaces is definitely degraded versus a clean wing.

3) Relative a/c performance that better represents historical outcomes. I'm not going to get into the ufo and luftwhiner arguments over specific a/c, but I do expect certain a/c to perform better in roll, turns or max speed than others, all other things (like pilot) being equal. Maybe I'm biased, since most of my reading is from German sources, but some lend-lease aircraft performance seems questionable too.

4) More time spent on the DM, FM and AI of existing a/c in the sim and less on fancier graphics and new a/c. (This comment is sure to be popular).

I really hope some of these suggestions are being worked in the next patch. In the meantime, I'll continue to play the original IL2 and hope for the best.

Regards!

Stevsky

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 05:32 AM
Stevsky, I feel your pain on several of the issues you mention. While I'm unable to do anything to relieve your pain, I will mention that I believe several of the issues you mention are limitations of the AI and its flight model. Specifically, the X-ray vision, and maneuvering with apparent disregard for damage to its aircraft. The player's aircraft is affected by damage to wings and control surfaces, but I don't believe this is the case for the AI.

There is also some buffet noise for some aircraft, but I too would like to see it punched up a bit to compensate for the lack of "seat of the pants" warning that many aircraft would give the pilot of an approaching stall. I don't fly with a force feedback stick, but FB's use of FF is apparently pretty good at providing stall feedback.

I agree also that the existing DM's and FM's still need some work. Specifically, the roll rates of the P-47D-27 and 190's, the apparent radiator bug in the La's, and the general over-robust DM of the Russian inline engines compared to their Amerian/Britsh/German counterparts.

I assume you play mostly off-line, as I do. The biggest improvement I'd like to see is to have the AI play by the same FM I do. A lot of the complaints concerning max speed have to do with the fact that the player's aircraft overheats, requiring open radiators, while the AI does not. I'd also like to see airframe g limits implemented for both AI and player aircraft. I'm guessing this wasn't done because a lot of people would pull wings off their aicraft if implemented without some type of g meter to again make up for the lack of seat of the pants feel.

To the folks at 1C, if these changes would require a more powerful processor than the current minimum, let us know how much more powerful so we can ask you to make the change, or wait for technology to catch up. As a minimum, it would be nice to have an option on the difficulty pages to have "AI use player's FM" for their respective aircraft.

On the otherhand, sometimes 1C's attention to detail is astounding. I had posted a bug report about the 262's airspeed indicator reading TAS instead of IAS. Later someone posted documentation that showed, among other things, that the 262 had an airspeed indicator that displayed TAS above a certain airspeed, with the changeover varying with altitude. This was no doubt a clever bit of high precision machining, but that it was implemented speaks well of both the engineers at Messerschmitt and 1C.

Blotto

"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter craft, no matter how technically advanced." - A. Galland

"Look, do you want the jets, or would you rather I slap the props back on?" - W. Messerschmitt

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:24 AM
Me want pee-tubes.

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:35 AM
i want a drink holder

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:56 AM
Excellent post Stevsky! Well put, and I couldn't agree more. Il-2, and Il-2FB are still the best flight sims available for a PC even with their little warts.

Having said that, I would just like to see them put some of stuff BACK into the sim that somehow got left behind. As you mentioned, the prestall buffet got much weaker with FB. They also left out aileron trim for a bunch of IL-2's planes, and deprived some of FB's planes that should have had it. It seems strange to me that they made a point of putting it in the P-47 with the 1.11 patch, but left it out of the P-40, AND the IL-2s and LaGGs! I haven't done a thorough check of every plane in the game (that's what their Beta testers are for), but it wouldn't surpprise me if there were others as well. I mean, in a game where there is obviously so much attention to detail, how could something like this get left out?!! My sense is that Oleg has moved on to other projects, and left someone else minding the store. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Your point about the AI's omniciant SA is also well taken. I'd sure like to see them restricted to the same field of views that we have in the cockpit, and that goes for visability issues too. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no programmer, and haven't the foggiest notion what it would take to "make it so", but nevertheless, I sure wish they'd do it! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And, like you, I'd sure like to see the AI fly by the same rules of aerodynamics that we humans do.

Most of the rest of the warts I can live with, as much as I'd like to see them do a bit more work a few of the a/c's FMs and DMs.

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 07:58 AM
Radio-Navigation /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

That would be REALLY nice... Maybe even Radar for some night-fighters like the upcoming Bf110?

Well, okay, I can life without it, but I'd really like to be able to switch between waypoints /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif .

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 08:22 AM
Trim was slowed in order to try to stop people from using it to do super turns as it in no way works like real trim does.

Buffet sounds would be cool. Spool up times I dunno they are swinging big metal multi-bladed props. Ok some have wood props but they are the low end engines of the war.

True on the AI I hate no being able to hide in the clouds. Online I've pulled some nice moves breaking through the clouds. Seems most people just fly straight through them for some reason.

I would comment on how the AI fly's and how their aircraft work, but programming them to have to fly the aircraft in the same manner as we do would be difficult.

I do agree however though that their damage should affect their flight capabilities. Also maybe a way of limiting their "vision" so you can surprise bounce them, and lose them in clouds.



Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:37 AM
More radio chatter and info - changing between plane spotters, etc.

Possibily of real big and fluffy white clouds, they can have real tactical meaning and for example when returning from bombing mission, or when escaping enemy fighters.

All in all, they provide good cover when present and i really think that they should be in the game. Cloud modelling is one rare thing where Cfs3 is far better than FB.

Reiskapappa

"Be your own disciple"

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 10:28 AM
I'd check your settings as my clouds look very nice.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 10:31 AM
Okay, this is getting a true wish-list, so I'll add something real:

I'd like a better AI. I loose more than 50% of my squad due to midair-collisions enroute to target and back.

Besides that, the AI has some kind of back radar. No matter how dump he is, coming up at his 6, he breaks away at a given distance. The distance grows bigger with AI-skill. (avg is 300m, I think).

I'd like the squad-leader to shut up, shouting in a fierce dogfight, with 3 enemies at my 6, where the hell I am going and why I leave formation...

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

T_O_A_D
10-01-2003, 10:47 AM
I aggree with all of the above!

I would like to add

I want to be able to talk to my base when I'm not the flight leader and get directions and ok for landing. (Online).The game may do that offline not sure. I only play online ( I only buy games with multyplayer) except when doing my squad testing missions. I fly Coops so the AI thing is a concern for me too.

I want trim to work like it used to, but break if used to rapidly, and not work at all till you respawn. Just like when your flaps jam. The "G" affect stress thing would fix this too if ever done.

Hmm seams like there is more but at work and just went blank /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif





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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 11:07 AM
I would like to see a 'Hide in Ukranian village for three months after being shot down' option.

You could always hit time acceleration if you don't like it.

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Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 01:37 PM
homeless1 wrote:
-
-
- I would like to see a 'Hide in Ukranian village for
- three months after being shot down' option.
-
- You could always hit time acceleration if you don't
- like it.

LOL!

Yeah, but the one shooting you down won't get any points, because you're not made for this kind of stress and you need vacation /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 03:38 AM
Appreciate the intelligent responses out there. I was beginning to lose hope in our community because of all the flaming and other foolishness.

Yes, I play mostly offline. That's what makes the all-seeing AI problem so troublesome. It seems at times like IL2:FB doesn't maintain the same level of realism accross the board. In some areas it is extremely detailed, then in others like the AI SA, it is weak. It would be nice to have some consistency.

I've also noticed that the AI doesn't seem to be governed by the same laws of physics that my aircraft is. I've done some experiements where I switch planes with the AI. Seems he is always faster, can turn sharper, etc. I don't think I'm that bad of a pilot, since I've been doing flight sims for over 10 years now. I've heard it said that the AI aircraft performance is juiced up a bit to compensate for the AI's lack of effectiveness. Maybe it's true. It would be nice if Oleg could include, as you said Blottogg, a difficulty option for AI use player FM. If one finds the AI to be not challenging enough, one can always pursue online play.

Concerning trim, there must be something fundamentally wrong with how it is modelled in the game if it allows one to cheat. Trim is nothing more than zeroing the pitching moment of the aircraft with the horizontal tail surface (or trim tabs on this surface). One should not gain an advantage by using it. There is a limit on the tail surfaces control effectiveness (with or without trim tabs) and its based on the tails moment arm from the cg, the surfaces size and planform, airfoil section, downwash from the wing, aircraft speed and AOA, and the amount of surface deflection used. When you trim, you start to eat into the amount of deflection available and simply reach the point where you lose control effectiveness sooner. If this problem is so pervasive online, perhaps we should have another difficulty option for manual or automatic trim similar to the engine controls.

In summary, I hope Oleg and crew already realizes these items are real issues and will address them in the next patch. Yes, I know it's just a game, but it could be so much better with just a few more tweaks.

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 04:46 AM
Mustang

_______________________________________
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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 05:01 AM
a few (very) minor online changes i would like to see are:
1) option for servers to restrict country selection (blue german, red russian, etc.)
2) option for servers to restrict loadout options (such as no bombs over 50kg or something)
3) some kind of indication in chat which says if a player is chatting to team or all (pretty much every game which has the option between team and all will show which the player is typing to)

not very important changes, but i feel they would improve an already excellent sim.