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View Full Version : 23mm vs panzers



XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 02:49 AM
i was flying my campaign, and while i always noticed that it was very difficult to take enemy tanks down, i never realized just how bad it was. my squad's plane is the il-2m later series, with 23mm cannons and such. well me and another one of my 3 man flight were going up against 4 panzers (of what type i don't know, but i'm playing the 1942 stalingrad campaign so maybe one of you might know.) well the ai pilot used all his rockets and bombs and didn't hit anything. i had used all my rockets on some enemy fighters, and hit 1 or 2 tanks with my bombs. all i had left was my cannons so i started strafing the german panzers. just for the heck of it, i singled one of them out and started pounding it with my cannons. i made all sorts of passes; i went head on, from its 6, from either side, diagonally. nothing worked. i used all my 20mm ammo on it, and if you test it out, you'll see that that is a good amount of ammo. now i know that tanks had good armor and 20mm wasn't much compared to it, but shouldn't repeated passings be able to knock any tank out? maybe some of you can test it and see if you can take some of those tanks out. it's just strange that 2 rockets can knock one tank out, but a whole plane-load of cannon can't.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 02:49 AM
i was flying my campaign, and while i always noticed that it was very difficult to take enemy tanks down, i never realized just how bad it was. my squad's plane is the il-2m later series, with 23mm cannons and such. well me and another one of my 3 man flight were going up against 4 panzers (of what type i don't know, but i'm playing the 1942 stalingrad campaign so maybe one of you might know.) well the ai pilot used all his rockets and bombs and didn't hit anything. i had used all my rockets on some enemy fighters, and hit 1 or 2 tanks with my bombs. all i had left was my cannons so i started strafing the german panzers. just for the heck of it, i singled one of them out and started pounding it with my cannons. i made all sorts of passes; i went head on, from its 6, from either side, diagonally. nothing worked. i used all my 20mm ammo on it, and if you test it out, you'll see that that is a good amount of ammo. now i know that tanks had good armor and 20mm wasn't much compared to it, but shouldn't repeated passings be able to knock any tank out? maybe some of you can test it and see if you can take some of those tanks out. it's just strange that 2 rockets can knock one tank out, but a whole plane-load of cannon can't.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 04:05 AM
Armor doesn't have hit points. If a projectile doesn't penetrate, then the next one is no more or less likely to penetrate. Except in the rare case of a round striking the exact same spot as a previous round (which I doubt is modelled in FB), then all the rounds have to punch through the same amount of steel. You can't "wear down" the tank by hitting it repeatedly with a small round, although in real life you might wear down the crew inside until they freak out.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 04:21 AM
so why did they even put guns on the il2? if they are completely ineffective against tanks as early as 1942, why not remove them and increase the bomb load? the early il2 in fb has rails for 16 rockets. why move backward and only have room for 4 rockets and 4 bombs. you can only take out around 4 tanks max with that loadout. there had to be some kind of damage as a result of a cannon round that could incapacitate the tank (i've heard of armor flaking but am not sure what it is, and what if you hit a weak spot, or the tracks?) it just doesn't make sense that a flurry of explosive shells is just going to bounce off harmlessly.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 05:39 AM
Timmothias wrote:
- so why did they even put guns on the il2? if they
- are completely ineffective against tanks as early as
- 1942, why not remove them and increase the bomb
- load? the early il2 in fb has rails for 16 rockets.
- why move backward and only have room for 4 rockets
- and 4 bombs. you can only take out around 4 tanks
- max with that loadout. there had to be some kind of
- damage as a result of a cannon round that could
- incapacitate the tank (i've heard of armor flaking
- but am not sure what it is, and what if you hit a
- weak spot, or the tracks?) it just doesn't make
- sense that a flurry of explosive shells is just
- going to bounce off harmlessly.
-
-

FB's damage modelling for vehicles is not that complex.

One or two things happened when you attacked the tanks:

1. the armor of the type of tank you were attacking was too thick and the shells did in fact bounce off or explode on the outside.

2. you were attacking at an angle that didn't allow for penetration of thinner armor.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 07:30 AM
The 23mm was not intended to bust tanks, apart the Panzer II and some weaker Panzer III, it was part of the arsenal to bust vehicles, maultier AA, half-track and so on...

In 1943 for the battle of Kursk, the IL2's were upgraded with PTAB 2.5 and these were very effective for tank busting, then they also created the IL2 3M with their 37mm cannon. At the same time, all army made their tanks thicker, so by 1944 even 37mm cannon were not very effectives for tank busting. Its also why we have tanks with longer barrel and bigger diameter, the T34 were upgrade to 85mm, and eventually the IS2 made its appearance in mid 1944. Same goes for the Germans with their Panther, Tiger, King Tiger and so on.


So in 1941 and 1942, you can try with bombs , bombs and BRS rockets, or 4xaj cassettes to blast tanks.

Cheers

Eric