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Ishmael_Herman
08-01-2005, 10:42 AM
Being a huge Flight Sim Fan (I am an old Red Baron 3D Veteran), I purchased IL2 FB as soon as it came out. Surprisingly however, I ended up almost never playing it. There was just something about the game that was unapealing. The graphics were awsome, the flight model of the highest quality, but the game seemed to lack something --- it wasn't "FUN."

But so far, Pacific Fighters has made me feel again like I am playing RB3D once more! The campaign is interesting and flying the aircraft seems like less of a chore and more of a thrill than was IL2.

One of the things I found about IL2 was the utterly unforgiving and unbelievably expert enemy AI that seemed to zero in on me and blast me out of the sky, over and over and over again. :-) Having as much experience in flight sims as I do, it did not seem unreasonabe to me to expect to have a career of a reasonable length before being shot down in flames -- but ussually I was dead within 5 or 6 missions at most. I'm finding that PF gives me a real chance at survival and, as a result, I'm having more fun.

I hope the AI isn't completely stupid (too early to tell yet) and that enemy aces really offer a major challenge (I'll see). But I like the fact that flying smart and being cautious is rewarded by the game with a real chance to live long and prosper.

ISHMAEL

TgD Thunderbolt56
08-01-2005, 12:00 PM
The AI in the original IL2 could be merciless at times. The newer code used in PF 'seems' to be a bit more dynamic and not as consistently 'expert'.

The most fun I've had on a pc in years has been while flying this series ONLINE! The satisfaction, comraderie and overall challenge of flying both with and against a real person is (for me anyway) ultimately rewarding. The caveat here is that you'd need to get all of the expansions and patches and get completely up to speed so as to be compatible with 99% of all the other gamers online.

Also, you'll need to get Hyperlobby and/or AllSeeingEye (ASE) to find a good populated room to fly in.

TB

Atomic_Marten
08-01-2005, 02:05 PM
Well if you ask me I find almost zero difference between IL-2/FB/PF regard "fun" of offline gaming.
It is quite dubious what's really better good dinamic or static campaign.
Although recently I am inclined to believe that static, if done properly is much more fun to play.(comparing to the dynamic, as it is now in game)

And yes, I must agree with Thunderbolt, this game will provide much more fun online than offline.
After some time spent on it.

Bearcat99
08-01-2005, 02:09 PM
Let me get this straight... you purchased Forgotten Battles as soon as it came out... and you hated the sniper AI so you put it down. Wellif you had stuck it out or came here then you would have been able to get the patcvh that would have helped that problem. If you have the original IL2 then I think a few of the patches fixed that as well. If you DO have FB... and you got PF... then you are shortchanging yourself bigtime if you dont pick up the Aces Expansion pack and merge the 3. Then patch to 4.01. Give us more details so we can help you possible become a raving flight sim junkie like the rest of us........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

3.JG51_BigBear
08-01-2005, 07:21 PM
Forgetting to put the "game" in this software has always been my biggest problem with the series. I have a great time with the Il2 games but I'll never understand why the offline play has always been so crappy. With the help of the community and third part addons the offline is much better but I still think it leaves a lot to be desired and I find myself online most of the time. The strangest part for me is that the most realistic scenarios in terms of numbers, formations, etc. is most readily had offline and with so many history buffs playing this game, myself included, I still can't figure out why offline seems to have been so neglected.

horseback
08-01-2005, 08:04 PM
He's absolutely right; the AI in FB 1.0 through the first few patches were monstrous joykillers. I bought the game the first week it came out myself, and after about two hours, I didn't try it again except for a few hours after each patch that was supposed to 'fix everything.'

It took over a year before I put the original Il-2 Sturmovik aside and fully embraced Forgotten Battles when it became genuinely playable offline just before the AEP was released.

Unfortunately, I believe that some of the old flaws are creeping back into the AI with the last patch, especially the so-called friendly wingmen who fly at super-speed, hide behind your canopy framing in order to collide with you and steal the credit for the enemies you worked so hard to chop up or set on fire.

cheers

horseback

han freak solo
08-01-2005, 09:05 PM
Welcome back, Ishmael!

There are plenty challenges in the PTO portion of FB/AEP/PF. Shooting down enemies in a Ki-43 is a good challenge. I can send away many a target smoking, but nearly none go down.

If you haven't downloaded any 3rd party campaigns try some at http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_campaigns_index.htm.

Good stuff done out there!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Ishmael_Herman
08-01-2005, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Let me get this straight... you purchased Forgotten Battles as soon as it came out... and you hated the sniper AI so you put it down.

That was a big pat of it. But I also felt the game was lackig something essetial -- something Red Baron had. A Sense of "Fun." Still...I'm looking forward to getting back into Flight Sims again.


If you DO have FB... and you got PF... then you are shortchanging yourself bigtime if you dont pick up the Aces Expansion pack and merge the 3.

I intend to do so as I want to participate in the online wars. I planned, organized and refereed some inovative concept wars for Red Baron 3D back in the day. I introduced the concept of the online avatar to Flight Sims (where players gaied experiece and rank as well as access to netter aircraft so long as their oline personas remained alive -- getting killed meant starting over).


Give us more details so we can help you possible become a raving flight sim junkie like the rest of us........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Well for most of my life I've been a flight sim junkie. Been playing them sinse back before ACES OVER EUROPE and ACES OF THE PACIFIC and the original RED BARON (all from the now defunct Dynamix). I used to put on a WW1 trench coat and a scarf whenever I fought in an orgaized online war with RB3d! :-) That's hard core! :-) I can honestly say that those wars were the most fun I've had ever with my clothes on!

Ishmael_Herman
08-01-2005, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
Forgetting to put the "game" in this software has always been my biggest problem with the series. I have a great time with the Il2 games but I'll never understand why the offline play has always been so crappy.

The reason is, first and foremost, most of the people who make these games have no idea why most of us play them (by "us," I refer to the majority of the sim-purchasing or potential sim-purchasing public).

The reason we buy Flight Sims is not to fly the world's most "realistic" recreation of a particular aircraft's flight behaviours. The reason people buy these games is to live an adventure!

I've been preaching this gospel for years but few developers listen (though I've seen positive change at Microsoft).

Most people don't give a **** if the plane flies the way the real one did historically. All we require is a sufficient modeling of the experience that we are able to suspend our own disbelief and imagine that we are there -- at that time and in that place -- doing something we could only before dream of.

Every flight sim developer ought to have a poster on their office door with that iconic picture of Snoopy (from "Peanuts") atop his doghouse, imagining himself the "famous WWI flying ace" and remember that that picture enbodies his customer base! The developer's job is to build us a "dog house" sufficiently engaging to transport the imagination, a world sufficiently representative of our dreams that we could believe we are there, and a series of adventures to live in that world to match or exceed our every ambition.

If the flight engine is sufficient to model Shuttle landings for NASA -- that's just icing on the cake. And the best FM in the world won't save a sim that lacks these things I have described.

One of the big problems with IL2 of course was that few people dream of visiting the Russian Front. There just isn't much there in the way of heroes -- not in the popular imagination at least. Therefore, the first thing the developers ought to have done is built for us some sort of psychological doorway into that world (it's this that appeals to so many "scripted" campaign enthusiasts -- though I side firmly with the dynamic campaign advocates!).

We can all imagine shouting "Tally Ho" over the White Cliffs of Dover as we engage a flight of 109s. It's an iconic and heroic image for us in the West. It's exciting and full of chivalry! But shooting at rampaging Russians or Scared-****less Germans in the carnage of the eastern front.....urghk!

So, to overcome that, we need a story! Something. A Hook. Look at the film "Enemy at the Gates." Despite its dreary setting, it's a movie we can all enjoy. The humanity of the hero affords an entryway into an entire world. There are ways of using these same techniques in games -- even dynamic games! It just takes imagination. Even the drearyness can be engaging if it is somehow thematically represented. Does this sound crazy for flight sims? No. Loo kat the original Red Baron with the opportunity it presented to earn "ace" status and paint one's own plane -- or earn access to the latest aircraft and commanding rank.

Sme of this has now been brought to the IL2 series and that's good to see. The pilot roster with details and photos of each pilot. One can see here a recognition on the part of the developers of what is needed -- even if it isn't yet perfectly implemented.


With the help of the community and third part addons the offline is much better but I still think it leaves a lot to be desired and I find myself online most of the time.

I aim to get online ASAP. I see there are some exciting things happening in the online world with this game and I want to be a part of it all again.

Are there community add-ons available for offline play that add significantly to this game? I'd like to know all about what's going on.


The strangest part for me is that the most realistic scenarios in terms of numbers, formations, etc. is most readily had offline and with so many history buffs playing this game, myself included, I still can't figure out why offline seems to have been so neglected.

With RB3D, my friends and I organized recreations of actual historical battles using my "live an adventure" concepts. Are there people recreating historical battles with the IL2 series?

Ishmael_Herman
08-01-2005, 10:15 PM
If you haven't downloaded any 3rd party campaigns try some at http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_campaigns_index.htm.


Right now, I can only play the stuff specific to the Pacific Fighters game. I need the Aces Expansion pack to do the Merged Install.

han freak solo
08-01-2005, 10:30 PM
We can all imagine shouting "Tally Ho" over the White Cliffs of Dover as we engage a flight of 109s. It's an iconic and heroic image for us in the West. It's exciting and full of chivalry! But shooting at rampaging Russians or Scared-****less Germans in the carnage of the eastern front.....urghk!

So, to overcome that, we need a story! Something. A Hook. Look at the film "Enemy at the Gates." Despite its dreary setting, it's a movie we can all enjoy. The humanity of the hero affords an entryway into an entire world. There are ways of using these same techniques in games -- even dynamic games! It just takes imagination. Even the drearyness can be engaging if it is somehow thematically represented.


I like the Eastern Front just as much as the Western Front and the PTO. As you mention a good story or imagination would help things tremendously.

Bird Brain did a campaign named "Cactus Diary" that had a good read between missions. So do the campaigns "Castaway" and "When Tigers Could Fly" from other community members.

3.JG51_BigBear
08-01-2005, 11:19 PM
I highly recommend "When Tigers Could Fly." High detail, exciting story, thrilling missions, and an excellent balance between performance and density of objects and planes. Its just cool being an American mercenary fighting under a foreign flag in a plane that looks more like a racer than a combat aircraft that's being held together by toilet papaer and duct tape all the while outnumber twenty to one.

Ah, immersion.

jg54athlon
08-02-2005, 09:49 AM
Hi guys,
I just wanted to put my two cents in on a third party program that brings this game to a new level of fun for me(although I am a little nutty). It's Lowengrin's Dynamic Campaign Generator(www.lowengrins.com). That has made this game the best it could ever be for me. It takes a little time to understand the program and how to set it up for your needs, but after a bit of experimentation, you can make any possible scenario of a war happen to your likings. I use it only in the NGen replacement option, not the single player option(that don't work as good as the Ngen, which I use even if I'm playing by myself offline). You can use the NGen replacement and modify your campaign and what you want to fly in and all sorts of goodies, then go online with a buddy and play the war out together, or just play it by yourself if you wish. The best thing about DCG is that it makes you feel like your actually in a war that is actually happening all around you and on the ground. Troops take over cities and if you can help the troops , you can make the front lines move in your favor if you are good. Awesome program and a must have for IL2. It is a steep learning curve at first, but once you get it, this is the best program out there for IL2, and not only that, if you have questions or problems with the program, just go to http://www.lowengrin.com and go to the forum, and Paul(the creator of the program) will help you very very quickly. Best support of a program that I have ever seen. Give it a try and let me know how you like it.
Athlon

neural_dream
08-02-2005, 10:43 AM
Many of the gaming industry pioneers like Peter Molyneux and David Braben have realised what Ishmael is talking about. I remember Braben in one of his talks saying that today's gaming industry is where the film industry was in the early 30s. The filmmakers were still trying to make full use of those times' technology to depict something "real". It took some genious innovators to make the film industry what it is now. The same need exists now in the gaming industry. There are only very very few games that can grab the random occasional player, make him a really necessary part of the story (not just someone a little clumsier than an AI bot that happens to be in the first-person view)make him sweat and at the end cry or laugh out loud. I can name Syberia I for one, but not many others. Games are still in their infancy. Don't expect 1C or any other hard-working, meticulous, but without revolutionary imagination, company to do what you are asking for. (unless you push them of course, or you provide some ideas. Lebillfish had a brilliant idea, about adding a rescue ability to the floatplanes, which could be the centre of amazing online battles, but i bet 1C, as most dev teams would, won't even consider it).

AWL_Frog
08-03-2005, 05:44 AM
Yes, this game needs a game designer.

It's such a shame that so much of the potential of this game goes to waste. It's all there already, it just needs to be put together. The way the game is sold it's like they sold just a SDK.

A real eye opener for me was a scene from the addon 'Rebirth of Honor' from Pluswave (which is brilliant). You were assigned to a new airfield, and after landing there a video was played, showing you around.
'Here is the repair shack, over there is the medical tent (hope you never need it), and this is your parking lot for your personal 109.'
And everything was really there, of course, all the objects are already in the game to build up an airfield like this.
What a difference! After that I really came home after each mission, even taking the time to taxi to 'my' place every time.
Compare this with the kind of airfield we are used to, empty wasteland, maybe a few parked planes scattered here and there, and you realize just how much goes to waste.

Bearcat99
08-03-2005, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Ishmael_Herman:
The reason is, first and foremost, most of the people who make these games have no idea why most of us play them (by "us," I refer to the majority of the sim-purchasing or potential sim-purchasing public).

The reason we buy Flight Sims is not to fly the world's most "realistic" recreation of a particular aircraft's flight behaviours. The reason people buy these games is to live an adventure!

Most people don't give a **** if the plane flies the way the real one did historically. All we require is a sufficient modeling of the experience that we are able to suspend our own disbelief and imagine that we are there -- at that time and in that place -- doing something we could only before dream of.


I dunno man.... I think that may have been the case in the past and while true we do want to vicariously live the adventure.... since the advent of IL2 I think flight simmers expectations have gone through the roof. Nobody really complained too much about the cr@ppy FMs in CFS at 100%.... because there wasnt much better to deal with.. but once IL2 came along the bar was raised considerably and IMO the expectations of simmers as well. Once many of us found out that more realistic modelling was doable... and doable well.... we became more particular. We were no longer willing to settle for arcade flight "games" with planes that flew on rails. Granted there were other sims out that hads decent FMs like the Falcon series.... but as far as WW2 sims go.... IL2 raised the bar beyond what anyof us even imagined.

One of the big problems with IL2 of course was that few people dream of visiting the Russian Front. There just isn't much there in the way of heroes -- not in the popular imagination at least. Therefore, the first thing the developers ought to have done is built for us some sort of psychological doorway into that world (it's this that appeals to so many "scripted" campaign enthusiasts -- though I side firmly with the dynamic campaign advocates!).

We can all imagine shouting "Tally Ho" over the White Cliffs of Dover as we engage a flight of 109s. It's an iconic and heroic image for us in the West. It's exciting and full of chivalry! But shooting at rampaging Russians or Scared-****less Germans in the carnage of the eastern front.....urghk!

That was the attitude that kept a whole lot of people from enjoying IL2... sad to say. My first reaction when I first saw it was that it looked interesting... but I put it down the first time.... (Aside from the fact that I had a 233MHZ PII at the time.... with a 64M video card and 512M of PC100 RAM).. but being the flight sim enthusaist I am as soon as I got a rig that could handle it I bought it and havent looked back. The unfamiliar front and the unfamiliar aircraft only added to the challenge as far as I saw it..... and there in lies the beauty of IL2. Oleg and 1C took a little known page of the war (outside of Eastern Europe and Germany) and turned it into something appealing to many. I think it was brilliant and nicely done... with the advent of FB the rest of the Johnny come Latelys have been flocking to this franchise like ants to a soda spill.... I say better late than never... the more the merrier.


Are there community add-ons available for offline play that add significantly to this game? I'd like to know all about what's going on.

Hit the Essentials link in my sig.... make sure you download Uber Demon's UQMG, Shift E's VAC,IL2 Manager, IL2 Stab and one of the alternative viewing solutions if you do not have TIR at the very least. Go to Airwarfare.com and download several of the excellent campaigns there....

neural_dream
08-03-2005, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by AWL_Frog:
Yes, this game needs a game designer.
Exactly.

All those fan-made utilities that Bearcat mentions only add to the fact that the game's design is far behind its potential.