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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:36 AM
Man. What a dog. I know the "learn to fly" boys will have a field day with me, but.............what a DAWG.
Very poor energy retention, almost no acceleration, very poor climb characteristics.
I know she wasn't the superplane the Germans would have had the world beleive, but...........this?
S!
Chris

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:36 AM
Man. What a dog. I know the "learn to fly" boys will have a field day with me, but.............what a DAWG.
Very poor energy retention, almost no acceleration, very poor climb characteristics.
I know she wasn't the superplane the Germans would have had the world beleive, but...........this?
S!
Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/WAR-08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:52 AM
It looks perfectly realistic to me.

I've read recently a little text in which an experienced 262 pilot had told his noob wingman not to worry about tracers but to continue to fly straight. But the young wingman didn't follow this order and began making manoeuvers, losing his energy fast. Result, the Mustangs got on him fast and shot him down.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:59 AM
It flies right to me (save at altitude but IL2 doesnt have 'it' yet for high alt simming), it's four big guns that can travel real fast in a straight line.

Deadly if used patiently.

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 06:43 PM
I would have to say that I think it should have energy retention in a zoom climb closer to the prepatch version. It was an underpowered airplane and handled poorly but once it got up to speed, being incredibly streamlined as it is and having a decent weight to throw around it should have enough stored up kinetic energy to really scream into the sky upward. It did in prepatch FB but now anything can zoom up and catch it, even a plane 2 Kilometers behind going much slower. I used to be able to fly level and get way up in front of persuing planes, then I'd zoom straight up and when I hit 270Kph, I'd loop over and find all the fighters floundering under me. It was only a matter of picking one out and diving on him with Mk108s blazing. Now if I try the same tactic, even though the enemy is far behind and much slower, they are right there with me when I get to the zenith of my zoom climb, plus they have enough energy to get their guns on me. Now you tell me, how realistic is that?? I realize in this scenario that they would not have to zoom straight up like I did, but zoom up at more like 45 degrees to catch me but I still should be higher than I am and leave them in the dust with all the energy I just spent. No, I don't have any data to back that up since no plane has "zoom" climb data on it anyway as far as I know. So there's no way I can prove it and therefore I can't do a bug report on it.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755



Message Edited on 08/17/03Ô 05:48PM by mortoma

Message Edited on 08/17/0305:51PM by mortoma

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 06:50 PM
Mortoma is absolutely right. We all know the Jumos were underpowered, but the FM does not take into account the streamlined aerodyamics of the 262. This allows it to retain energy more efficiently than the piston fighters. In fact, the 262 had a better sustained turn rate due to aerodynamic design than the piston engined fighters. I hope the next? patch fixes this.

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 06:50 PM
<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/Actually262.jpg
</center>

<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/A10Bun.jpg
</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:08 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- Mortoma is absolutely right. We all know the Jumos
- were underpowered, but the FM does not take into
- account the streamlined aerodyamics of the 262.

But it was also a large and heavy aircraft. It had powerful engines, but was still heavier than the P-47 which isn't going to count in its favour when you're throwing it around in manouvering.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:16 PM
Me 262 had a hard time when taking off, because of their weight. They needed a very long runway, and they struggled all the way up to their cruise altitude... where they were the fastest planes.

That's why they had to be looked after by 109s flying cover while doing landing/taking off operations.



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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:17 PM
AeroBob wrote:

But it was also a large and heavy aircraft. It had
- powerful engines, but was still heavier than the
- P-47 which isn't going to count in its favour when
- you're throwing it around in manouvering.
-

I agree. But Im talking climbing, not maneuvering. It should zoom climb quite will as it did historically. Luftwaffe pilots often attacked bomber formations from below, a tactic that piston engined pilots could not. In 1.1 FB, you can't do it


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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:31 PM
Please look at this chart an then tell me, that the 262 is modeled correctly /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif :

http://320015073007-0001.bei.t-online.de/il2-forum/vmax_262.jpg

The topspeed is way too low and the service ceiling is ~3000m below the historical altitude. (btw. the topspeed at 9000m and 10000m are even lower, but it isn't possible to get them by flying with activated stabilization + trim, because the power of the engines isn't enough to hold the altitude).

Additionally, you can read the information on this homepage:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/luftwaffe1/me262/me262_intro.html

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Message Edited on 08/17/0308:37PM by Atzebrueck

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:34 PM
Dunno about you guys, but the little white box with the red cross in it has me convinced.

(Atzebrueck - check the link address, mate. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:35 PM
Yes, my webspace always needs some minutes, until it shows the file correctly to everyone.

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:40 PM
hi
i agree it seems to have no e retention at all?i though it was modeled quite in 1.0.now theres not much point to even
fly,when you can be caught by prop planes,from behind it s kind of joke.but i m no experten,but most books i ve read
state that the reason allie planes waited around airfields was because they couldn t ketch it,well not any more.
i find kind of strange that noone(or not very many)complained about it s fm,yet alot of complained about the stupid ai trying to "drive" to missions when they fail to
light 1 of the engine,which still happens by the way.i quit flying it waiting for the ai to be fixed,now it flies like
a lead balloon,imho.not the first jet fighter.

After it was refeuled i climbed in.With many manipulations the mechcanics started the turbines.I followed their actions with the greatest of interest.The first one started quite easily.the second caught fire.In no time the whole engine was on fire.Luckily as a fighter pilot i was used to getting quickly out of the cockpit.The fire was quickly put out.The second plane caused no trouble - Adolf Galland (first time in a ME262)

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:46 PM
Oh, no, here's another Atzebrueck's chart! Do you have them all scanned and ready for the post? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Are u going to explain it with a laser pointer and a chalkboard?

This seems the Smithsonian Institute's web page... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

(While I'm typing, there's a smell to old books and tobacco pipe smoke in the air...) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:52 PM
No, but I tested all planes for the betatest of beta05-08, so that I just had to update them for 1.0 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ).

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:57 PM
Ok, Atzebrueck, that's great!

...but don't relay too much on charts. I have plenty books on the topic, and I still haven't found two charts with the same or similar data... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:06 PM
Aerobob wrote:

"But it was also a large and heavy aircraft. It had powerful engines, but was still heavier than the P-47 which isn't going to count in its favour when you're throwing it around in manouvering. "

But bob, I'm not talking about turning type of manouvers,
I'm only talking about getting up to a really fast speed in level flight and pulling back on the stick, so as to zoom to high altitude. Yes, all the energy will be expended but not the same as the type of energy bleed in turns that you apparently are talking about here. I'm not talking about turning, you are. A heavy aircraft will store up a lot of energy, moreso than a light one will, and couple that to the extremely slippery aerodynamics of the 262, and you get a really great zoom climb initially. Yes the sheer weight of it will catch up after a while, nothing can defy gravity for very long but the extra weight and energy of speed and slipperiness will make for an extremely good initial zoom climb. In this case the heavy weight of the 262 will help it for the first 1000 meters or so, then the weight will work against it and it will slow down exponentially. Once the climb would start to peter out, it would do so suddenly. But the initial pent up energy would enable it to go quite high, I assure you. I'm afraid you don't seem to understand physics well.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755



Message Edited on 08/17/0307:09PM by mortoma

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:08 PM
AeroBob wrote:
-
- mike_espo wrote:
-- Mortoma is absolutely right. We all know the Jumos
-- were underpowered, but the FM does not take into
-- account the streamlined aerodyamics of the 262.
-
- But it was also a large and heavy aircraft. It had
- powerful engines, but was still heavier than the
- P-47 which isn't going to count in its favour when
- you're throwing it around in manouvering.
-



Excuse me! If your read the aircraft Text in FB the me262 is only 100kg heavier than the p51D-20na.



me262 : 4092kg - 9022.86lbs
p51D-20NA : 3992kg - 8802.36lbs
p47D-27 : 4630kg - 10209.15lbs


IMHO the me262 feels quite a bit heavier than the jug the way it is modeled in this Patch.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:13 PM
griego wrote:
- Excuse me! If your read the aircraft Text in FB
- the me262 is only 100kg heavier than the p51D-20na.
-
-
- me262 : 4092kg - 9022.86lbs
-
- p51D-20NA : 3992kg - 8802.36lbs
-
- p47D-27 : 4630kg - 10209.15lbs
-

Do you have magic Me-262s that can fly without any fuel on board? No, didn't think so. Loaded, the P-47 is 6583kg and the take off weight of the 262A-1a is 6896kg.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:21 PM
Yeah, those 1944 jet engines just were thirsty as camels. They had to fill the bird with fuel to get it flying for a short time.



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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:55 PM
But it wasn't Sabre or MiG-15. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

If it was like that, almost no Stang or T-bolt could get Me-262.

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 09:08 PM
Nobody said it was like a Mig-15 or Sabre, did they??
Besides, Stangs and others couldn't "get it" if it was flown correctly by an experienced pilot. That is precisely why so many of the victories the allies did get were "vulches" when it was taking off and landing. Probably the vast majority or 262s shot where vulched at an airfield. Most allied pilots did not dare take it on at high speed in the hands of someone who knew how to fly it. Most good 262 pilots didn't attempt to turn fight in it.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 09:24 PM
Me-262 undermodelled? sure it is.

1. Me-262 could SUSTAIN 5G!! that means that if you don't blackout you don't loose speed in turns! (horizontal turns). Best sustained speed was almost 500kmh, now I can turn very well at 300kmh sustained. That was simply impossible in Me-262, you should whether stall or accelerate. 300kmh was NOT SUSTAINABLE. In other words energy loss is completely off for Me-262, it's sustained turn speed is 200kmh below its real value!!

2. Best climb speed was around 480kmh IAS, now it is around 380kmh IAS, again 100 kmh below the real value. It's very important to remember that best turn and climb speeds for Me262 were almost max speed for most planes, so it was very very easy to extend from any maneuver if things went wrong.

3. Me-262 had the BEST ACCELERATION of all ww2 planes, at speeds over 350kmh (300kmh against most piston fighters), at 450kmh had almost twice the acceleration of the best accelerating piston fighters (sea level). Acceleration from 350 to 550 kmh is quite well done 30sec (should be slightly below 25 sec), but from 550 to 750kmh is very much off - it should be less than 35 sec, but in FB twice the time was not enough). It was also the best diver/zoom climber by far.


As it is right now, Me-262 is terribly crippled, in no way a representation of the real Me-262. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do a complete list of problems with Me-262, my list of bugs will have problems found in all planes. I hope though that the 1C team will see the awful state in which Me-262 is after the patch.


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Message Edited on 08/17/0303:51PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 09:28 PM
mortoma wrote:
- Most good 262 pilots
- didn't attempt to turn fight in it.


Maybe, sustained G's in Me-262 were very high. But Me-262 turn rate was better than of Mustang (turn radius was bigger though).


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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 09:42 PM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- Ok, Atzebrueck, that's great!
-
- ...but don't relay too much on charts. I have plenty
- books on the topic, and I still haven't found two
- charts with the same or similar data...

Yes, but look at the tendency ... it nearly loses no speed at 10000m (815 km/h compared to 835km/h sealevel ... and don't forget that the database of FB lists the same speeds as "Me262A-1a historical".

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 09:48 PM
Yes, that's true. The plane should be able to retain more energy, for it's really slim. But I don't think it was better before the patch... Now, I can hover w/o engines and have a crash landing. It fell like a stone before. But I agree: it needs to be adjusted, specially top speed.



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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:01 PM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- Yes, that's true. The plane should be able to retain
- more energy, for it's really slim.

Not because it's really slim/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif but because it's engines produced an enormous dynamic thrust: 4000lb regardless of speed. For comparison a Dora or a P-47 produce 1/3 less thrust at 350kmh and almost half the Me-262 thrust at 500kmh. That's why Me-262 had an awesome acceleration.


- But I don't think
- it was better before the patch... Now, I can hover
- w/o engines and have a crash landing

That's because there were a lot of bugs in the previous FM too. Me-262 also had the best glide ratio of all ww2 fighters, almost 17. The second best, Ta-152H, had "only" 14.



- It fell like a stone before. But I agree: it needs to be
- adjusted, specially top speed.

Top speed is not urgent, speed loss should be fixed first since it is the most glaring inaccuracy.


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Message Edited on 08/17/0304:05PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:07 PM
Ok, YOU WIN. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I'll go to ORR and post one of those messages, mmm, something like "Oleg: Me 262 stinks, Please". /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:08 PM
i dont mind one way or another. when i first flew with the patch i absolutely hated the me-262 like many others on this forum. prop planes would often shoot me down which frustrated me. now i have nearly mastered the jet, and prop planes can never shoot me down now(except when taking off or landing). the plane just needs some getting used to. i am great with that plane now even tho ppl are sometimes accuse me of being a n00b for flying it. it requires quite a bit of skill to use it successfully and when u do master it, it is unstopable. but a lil more speed and climb will always be welcome.



Message Edited on 08/17/0301:11PM by jj8325

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:12 PM
the thing i dont like is the b1 was unchanged the thing can take off and climb to 6000 in a matter of seconds and now it out turns the 262 and is extremely faster, b1 is now the ultimate 262 killer.


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:15 PM
jj8325 wrote:
- i dont mind one way or another. when i first flew
- with the patch i absolutely hated the me-262 like
- many others on this forum. prop planes would often
- shoot me down which frustrated me. now i have
- nearly mastered the jet, and prop planes can never
- shoot me down now(except when taking off or
- landing). the plane just needs some getting used
- to. i am great with that plane now even tho ppl are
- sometimes accuse me of being a n00b for flying it.
- it requires quite a bit of skill to use it
- successfully and when u do master it, it is
- unstopable. but a lil more speed and climb will
- always be welcome.


Me262 was considered a noob plane even then. LW officers concluded that Me262 requires the smallest number of hours for combat traning than any other fighter. The only problem were the laborious take offs and landings.


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Message Edited on 08/17/0304:16PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:16 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- the thing i dont like is the b1 was unchanged the
- thing can take off and climb to 6000 in a matter of
- seconds and now it out turns the 262 and is
- extremely faster, b1 is now the ultimate 262 killer.
-
-
-
-
- http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif
-
- Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't.
- (c) Leadspitter
-
-

not true. the easiest way to take care of bi-1s in a 262 is to fly low, and get up to about 800km/h the bi-1 will then plummet into the ground. if it slows down, u can outrun it and wait for it to run outa fuel. i do think that it is a lil too menuverable, and climbs a lil too well. hopefully this will be fixed in the final patch, but its pretty easy to get away from them in a 262. i also noticed it has a quite a bit more fuel than in 1.0. i dont know if this is accurate or not but it can fly for about twice the amount of time then b4. ill look into it and see if its accurate.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:25 PM
Wow! 262 still kicks butt at least at low level. It does NOT turn well but has adequate acceleration and level speed to dominate low level dogfights. High level I dunno my first impression was I couldn't get it above 7km.

If The Patch allows 262 into the servers, then it is doing ok. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

-- same with I~16 being allowed into the server. I can take them down in much less ammo then before with Fb109 cannon and they can't zoom away. (at least AI versions)

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:29 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- If The Patch allows 262 into the servers, then it is
- doing ok.


Frankly I don't care if Me-262 is banned on all servers. All I want is realistic performance, so what it was so ahead of it's time? Should we cripple Me-262 because some kid can't shoot it down in Yak3? I don't think so.


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Message Edited on 08/17/0304:30PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:42 PM
-- Frankly I don't care if Me-262 is banned on all servers.

What about I~16?

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:48 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
--- Frankly I don't care if Me-262 is banned on all servers.
-
- What about I~16?


Hmm, I don't know, I didn't test it, I'm not really interested in this plane. I just noticed that I can shot it down now much easily, but I still could not get an engine kill before I destroyed it completely.
Yes, before the patch it was overmodelled in every possible way.


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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:55 PM
I agree, I don't care about the 262 server fights either.
I'm an offline player and I have to pay for the little 10 year old brat kid that gets mad and complains to Oleg because he can't shoot down the 262. Too bad if some online pilots didn't like the more accurate performance it had prepatch. Should us offline players have to settle for the toned down version because Oleg wanted to appease the online whiners??? This is really what happened, it's (262 )the victim of politics and so are us offliners. As it is we have to put up with poor AI ( but getting better ). Now we have to put up with politically correct FMs that Oleg implements to keep the online peace.
The 262 is the perfect example of "porked to keep the peace" FM we currently have.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:57 PM
I see what you are saying and yes, relative performance between aircraft offline is more important than adjusting aircraft for online ace Noobs. Was the 262 "realistic" before The Patch? I dunno about this one, but I just had a few flights and I kicked some butt zooming in and out of a ~50 aircraft furball (at low altitude though), although it took alot of time to stay safe and fast, as should be expected.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 11:21 PM
Well I should have clarified that I think it's the zoom climb that was more accurate prepatch. We all would agree that the one engine flying is much better ( I.E., possible ). And I'm sure we'd all agree that we love that we can now glide her in with neither engine lit. Sure they have improved some things. I do think that it turned a hair too tightly before he patch too.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 11:34 PM
Huckbein.

In your posts you refer to ME262 Sustained G capability
Do you have charts that illustrate this ? It would be great to see them.

A number of 1G Ps charts exist but I am yet to see the same under G.


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III/JG11_IvanK

Ps=V(T-D)/W
III/JG11_IvanK

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 11:47 PM
mortoma wrote:
- I agree, I don't care about the 262 server fights
- either.
- I'm an offline player and I have to pay for the
- little 10 year old brat kid that gets mad and
- complains to Oleg because he can't shoot down the
- 262. Too bad if some online pilots didn't like the
- more accurate performance it had prepatch. Should us
- offline players have to settle for the toned down
- version because Oleg wanted to appease the online
- whiners??? This is really what happened, it's (262
- )the victim of politics and so are us offliners. As
- it is we have to put up with poor AI ( but getting
- better ). Now we have to put up with politically
- correct FMs that Oleg implements to keep the online
- peace.
- The 262 is the perfect example of "porked to keep
- the peace" FM we currently have.



As much as I am p*ssed off for the Me-262 FM I cannot agree with your last phrase. Until now I tested turn rates and zoom climb for most planes and at least turn rates are much more accurate now. IMO Me-262 is just a mistake. It should be corrected though.


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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 11:51 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- I see what you are saying and yes, relative
- performance between aircraft offline is more
- important than adjusting aircraft for online ace
- Noobs. Was the 262 "realistic" before The Patch? I
- dunno about this one, but I just had a few flights
- and I kicked some butt zooming in and out of a ~50
- aircraft furball (at low altitude though), although
- it took alot of time to stay safe and fast, as
- should be expected.


It definetely was more realistic before the patch, though undermodelled still in acceleration at high speeds. Everybody should forget what they learnt about planes performance when switching to jets.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 01:31 AM
mortoma wrote:
- I agree, I don't care about the 262 server fights
- either.
- I'm an offline player and I have to pay for the
- little 10 year old brat kid that gets mad and
- complains to Oleg because he can't shoot down the
- 262. Too bad if some online pilots didn't like the
- more accurate performance it had prepatch. Should us
- offline players have to settle for the toned down
- version because Oleg wanted to appease the online
- whiners??? This is really what happened, it's (262
- )the victim of politics and so are us offliners. As
- it is we have to put up with poor AI ( but getting
- better ). Now we have to put up with politically
- correct FMs that Oleg implements to keep the online
- peace.
- The 262 is the perfect example of "porked to keep
- the peace" FM we currently have.
-
- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
- little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
- safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755
-
-



totaly agree with u, hopefully enough people will influence oleg to correct it and also hopefully the saturn space rocket flight management of the bl1 that shouldnt even be in this game will get corrected....

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:58 AM
hobnail wrote:
- It flies right to me (save at altitude but IL2
- doesnt have 'it' yet for high alt simming), it's
- four big guns that can travel real fast in a
- straight line.
-
- Deadly if used patiently.

Why is it, that it's so hard for il2 to render good terrain at higher altitudes? From what I have seen from the Lo-Mac screenshots, it looks pretty decent. What's so hard about this?


Leben Sie heute, f├╝r morgen zu k├┬Ąmpfen

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:25 AM
AeroBob wrote:
-
- griego wrote:
-- Excuse me! If your read the aircraft Text in FB
-- the me262 is only 100kg heavier than the p51D-20na.
--
--
-- me262 : 4092kg - 9022.86lbs
--
-- p51D-20NA : 3992kg - 8802.36lbs
--
-- p47D-27 : 4630kg - 10209.15lbs
--
-
- Do you have magic Me-262s that can fly without any
- fuel on board? No, didn't think so. Loaded, the
- P-47 is 6583kg and the take off weight of the
- 262A-1a is 6896kg.



Im sorry I should have said that with 50% fuel the jug is heavier than the me262-1a


me262-1a:5494kg
p47D-27 :5607kg
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:17 AM
Well I just tried the 262 again in QMB and am now more convinced that it's energy bleed in any type of climb is porked. Especially the zoom climb. I mean there I was, ( in QMB ) had already passed a single LA-7 and puposely let him turn around and chase me. Of course I left him in the dust in the straight and level, but once I pulled straight up into a zoom climb, the E bleed was so great it was more like what you'd expect to see if you pulled it into a straight up climb and cut your engines completely off.
I mean I was going almost 700Kph indicated, the LA-7 was over 3 kilometers behind me when I pulled up, yet by the time I was looping over on my back, there he was right in front of me with his guns blazing. I mean picture being in a LA-7 that far in front of someone in a 262 and he's right there with you at the zenith of your zoom climb. Of course he didn't have to climb straight up, only about 45 degrees but still the 262 zoom climb before the patch was more like it should be, Or perhaps somewhere in between the two??
Right now it's pathetic. Some are coming in here and saying the 262 is ok because it still goes fast and you can still
horizontal BnZ in it, but it's vertical is just ridiculous.
Try it for yourself. There's more to modelling the 262 than just just making her go fast. And of course you get comments from people in this post who hated the prepatch 262 and of course they're going to it's modelled ok now. If hypothetically, I hated the LA-7 before the patch and it got neutered after it, I'd just love it and write posts on how it's "just great" now!! I think we can take the commemts of some in this post with a grain of salt, personally. I also think it should accelerate a tad more briskly too.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:45 AM
Early jets were famous for speed more than climb.

I would imagine a zoom climb with a 262 would be like a zoom climb with a fast glider. Don't try it. Try gentle climb at high speed and you will get away like I did tonight in low altitude furball.

Would a real life LW 262 pilot try this Noob stunt as described below (as usual without any altitude data provided)?

mortoma whines::
- I mean I was going almost 700Kph indicated, the LA-7 was
- over 3 kilometers behind me when I pulled up, yet by the
- time I was looping over on my back, there he was
- right in front of me with his guns blazing.


What was that title of that aviation book? (forgot subject)

Yes!

"There I Was, Flat On My Back." /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 08:23 AM
Flying straight up....hmm.

Combat weight of the Me262: ~6000kg
Combined thrust of Jumo4004B: 1800kg

It just doesn't ADD UP!! That gives the Schwable a thrust/weight ratio of 3/10. For kicks, the F15C weighs 25000kg combat weight, 22,500kg thrust for a t/w ratio of almost 1:1.

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:23 PM
Hmmmmmm...it does add up!!!
The intiial zoom climb when one starts it from such a fantastic speed with all the energy from all that weight
and the fact that it's a super aerodynamic plane means that it should indeed go really high until it finally peters out. How many times do I have to explain this to people who apparently haven't the faintest concept of physics??? The thrust to weight ratio would only factor in once your speed
in the zoom climb started to decay, then it would matter greatly. But not at first. I mean you're going 700Kph here!!! I'm getting comments from people who are either
10 years old or who don't think very hard.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:34 PM
Well Mr. "Lexx Luthor", yes the 262 pilots did use that manouever, some used it to attack bomber formations. They's sometimes go straight up through the formations from below. In fact the 262 did have a fantastic zoom climb. Do a little research before you post.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

ZG77_Nagual
08-18-2003, 04:37 PM
I've been having great fun with the 262 online - wouldn't fly it before because it was ridiculously 'uber'. Huck, I think you are wrong about the 262 being a 'noob' plane - weren't they reserved for the 'experten' - accomplished pilots - many of whom died in accidents with this difficult plane.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:54 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- I've been having great fun with the 262 online -
- wouldn't fly it before because it was ridiculously
- 'uber'. Huck, I think you are wrong about the 262
- being a 'noob' plane - weren't they reserved for the
- 'experten' - accomplished pilots - many of whom died
- in accidents with this difficult plane.


Not true. Most accidents occured before they were used in numbers in JG7, and they were related to innacurate takeoffs and landings, front gear and engine problems. Most pilots in those early days were bomber and Zerstorer pilots with experience in twin engine aircrafts. Until the end of the war only a few experten flew the Me-262 most probably because they did not wanted a dangerous Zerstorer job. But regarding strictly to combat issues, Me-262 was considered the easiest plane to learn (I mentioned the reasons before). I'll look for an exact quote from LW officers.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 08/18/0310:58AM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:56 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:

- Huck, I think you are wrong about the 262
- being a 'noob' plane - weren't they reserved for the
- 'experten' - accomplished pilots

This was my understanding as well. Wasn't the Me 262 first deployed in late 1944, then temporarily taken out of service because it proved impossible to operate and the pilots hadn't developed adequate tactics?

In contrast, I believe that inexperienced pilots were still being assigned to piston engined a/c right up to the end of the war.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:00 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- I've been having great fun with the 262 online -
- wouldn't fly it before because it was ridiculously
- 'uber'


What exactly do you mean by that? you mean it was overmodelled? In what exactly?


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Message Edited on 08/18/0311:05AM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:54 PM
Well if it was overmodelled, it wasn't by much. It probably had a little too much zoom climb and a hair too much tightness in it's turn too. But now it's way too far the other way. I feel ( but of course can't prove it yet )
that it should be somewhere in between the prepatch performance and the way it is now. We're no doubt starting to get what I call the "I like challenging FMs" crowd in here. Who like it now because they think it's no longer a "noob" plane since it's harder to fly. I fought with this sophomoric attitude in the Red Baron forums and other flight sim forums for years. Their attitude gets egotistical and it's the "noobs" versus the experts. And the Uber planes against the "challenging" to fly ones. Their logic being that if you can take a suck-a$$ plane and win fights against Uber panes, then you are "macho". And any plane that is "uber" or easy to fly is a "noob" plane. And if one of those plane's FM is later changed and made harder to fly ( whether realistically or not ) then it satisfies the so-called experts who said it was too easy to fly. Now they'll fly it because it's more macho. But what if the particular plane really was that "Uber" or that easy to fly in real life?? That's what matters here. Screw having challenging FMs only for the sake of challenge people. Fact of the matter is there were a lot of Uber planes in W.W.II To me, all I think is important is as much realism as possible. Granted no FS is ever going to be perfectly realistic.
I used to argue about the FM of the Fokker DVII in Red Baron with people who insisted that it was too easy to fly and too "Uber"! It simply wasn't challenging enough!! But they finally shut up when I found a quote by a Fokker ace who said that it was so easy to fly he'd let his daughter fly it. Or something to that effect. If a plane was really Uber than it was really Uber and it should be modelled thusly. And I feel we have a lot of immature attitudes about this kind of thing overall.
And getting back to the comments from the some who acted like I was crazy because I was flying the 262 straight up at high speed and was surprised it didn't go very high.
They said that it didn't have a good "power to weight ratio" and therefore should not have a good zoom climb.
Well how about this?? Picture a 262 with zero power to weight ratio!! What if, hypothetically, you got up to 900kph in a dive, then levelled off and cut off your engines. And then, when your speed deteriorated to 700Kph, you decided to pull back on the stick and fly straight up?? Well according to the logic of some in this post, the 262 would simply stall immediately!! Not true, they simply don't understand the principles of stored up energy. Not only would that heavy ( but super aerodynamic ) Me-262 go straight up, I think it would have enough energy to zoom pretty high. Even with zero thrust!!! Now take that same 262 and put back the thrust and start a straight up zoom climb at 700 or 750KPH. Even with it's poor power to weight ratio, it would have still quite a bit of thrust to help out. Now think about this people. I can only make sense to people who have a basic understanding of the laws of physics. So if you don't, maybe it would be better for you to post something about Barney the Dinosaur instead.



"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755



Message Edited on 08/18/03Ô 04:56PM by mortoma

Message Edited on 08/18/03Ô 04:58PM by mortoma

Message Edited on 08/18/03Ô 05:00PM by mortoma

Message Edited on 08/18/0305:02PM by mortoma

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 12:24 AM
I mostly agree with you (mortoma).

Now with this patch the top speed / altitude of the me 262 is way off at some altitude.
And it feels as areodynamic as a whale with a parachute in NY streets during rush hours.

I'm no expert pilot but when I tried this new FM I got the feeling this plane wasn't using the same law of physics as us.
I mean when you dive 4000 meters with a 6 tons plane with 2 tons of thrust in the back and you cannot reach 800 Kph easily then something's wrong.
Not to mention when you try to climb up after such dive... Did someone mounted the jets backward?!

Actually if you start your dive from alt A and make a parabolic dive/climb up you should get to alt A + C (where C is positive) *IF* the thrust of the jets is higher than the drag during the whole process.

Lets say you make this dive at around 700-800 Kph this would be verified and you will climb higher than where you started the dive. Why? 'cause the top speed of the Me 262 is way higher than 800 Km/h which means that at that speed the drag is still lower than the thrust.
Of course there is the drag of the "horizontal turning" but unless you did a 180 Ô? horizontal turn in 2 sec it should not be a prob.


Try such a dive before and after the patch, you'll have hard time even getting at the altitude you started your dive at.


PS: I also completly agree too with the "noob plane" problem with so called "experts".
But I don't think that the Me 262 was so easy to fly online before the patch. If you really know how to fly it it's an uber plane, but if you don't it will certainly be your tomb.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 02:43 AM
The 262 is easier to fly now, its just like a big twin prop, but it can manage 800kmh. The engines don't explode as easily, probably cause it takes forever for them to start up and get going. Its roll rate is better than a AI P-51, but almost every plane can outpace it in certain situations.

I've played online and been outrun my bf109's going flat and level. after maybe 5 or more mins I was finally able to push to 100% without overheat and get beyond 650km/h. I've found the best way to operate the 262 in its current form is not to go vertical, you gotta make a slow transition to about 40-45 degrees AoA at a speed of no less than 600 - 650km/h But you won't get very far, 0 to 2000m tops before you've bled down to 350km/h.

Can someone tell me why the LW would put their effort into a big, highly technical and hard to manufacture weapon of war, when they could just knock together some wooden planes that are faster and more maneuverable. And yeah I dunno if many ppl have played online with me when I see a Bi-1 come along but I class it the Bi-1 Guided missile.

The Current 262 is good in some ways, but not so good in others, however all up I like the jet in general and would rather it as-is than not at all.

262 is forever, whether it be fat, heavy and sluggish, or a pontential war winner but flawed by politics EDIT : and by allied numbers and lack of essential materials

Thanks for putting up with my input.

MD_FuryFighter




Message Edited on 08/19/0301:54AM by MD_FuryFighter

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 03:16 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Me-262 undermodelled? sure it is.As it is right now, Me-262 is terribly crippled, in
- no way a representation of the real Me-262.
- Unfortunately I don't have the time to do a complete
- list of problems with Me-262, my list of bugs will
- have problems found in all planes. I hope though
- that the 1C team will see the awful state in which
- Me-262 is after the patch.
Huck, hope your right.

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XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 05:40 AM
Hello everyone,

I think that perhaps the climb rate of the 262 is a little underdone, but I would like to point out that if you watch your E it is still perfectly simple to attack bombers from underneath in a fast climbing pass. I do it all the time in FB1.1, and it is a devastatingly successful method to destroy loads of bombers with minimal damage from return fire.

No plane in FB has a perfect FM, but gee we have a lot of fun learning about these planes and debating the pros and cons, don't we!

Cheers,
IV/JG7_4Shades

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 07:05 AM
FourShades wrote:
-
- No plane in FB has a perfect FM, but gee we have a
- lot of fun learning about these planes and debating
- the pros and cons, don't we!
-

So true http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:56 PM
I'm not an expert on the Me262 unlike all those retired Luftwaffe pilots out there who play this game, but it is my observation the 262 is modelled more appropriately in FB1.1b than in other sims like WW2 fighters, EAW, and CFS. In WW2 fighters, especially, it was a death trap. From what I read, the plane's major advantages were its level speed, low angle climb rate, and heavy armament, all of which seem accurately modelled. It is also my understanding that its turn rate was inferior to all piston-engined fighters it opposed, its acceleration was extremely poor, it's engines were very fragile and subject to frequent fires if the throttle was handled sloppily,and that its high-altitude and vertical performance were suprisingly mediocre for a jet. Again, these characteristics seem to be modelled accurately. Finally, I have read in several books that fewer planes were shot down by 262's than the number of 262's lost to enemy action. Certainly the fact that the Germans had US fighters essentially camped over their airfields had something to do with this, but it is hardly the record of an uber potentially war-winning plane. The Me 262 was a radical technological leap, but its real forte was in bomber interception, not fighter vs fighet combat.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 07:21 PM
It doesn't feel too bad low down, but try flying one at a modest 7,500 m (a little below where, IIRC, B-17s flew). The FM has a serious issue that won't let the 262 climb over 7,500 m.

Seriously. Try it. It's wierd.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 01:06 AM
Zoomar, I've never read it was poor in the vertical at all.
I've read a lot about this jet too. No pilots that flew it ever criticised it in the vertical, because it was a helluva lot better in the vertical than it was in the horizontal!! And it was certainly better in the vertical than the FM has it in FB1.1b. I've read that it was a great energy fighter too, an attribute you don't mention. You must not have read the same stuff I have about it. What book/info source did you get this from?? But most of what you say is probably true. I also think a lot of pilots that flew it really didn't fly it correctly and there is substantially evidence of it being flown improperly. Quite a few incidents of rookie pilots attempting to turn fight in it rather than use it's speed and energy to extend in it. I seriously think it's energy bleed in the vertical is now off compared to the prepatch FB. It was a little too zoomy before the patch but now it has only about half the zoom it used to. Should be in between the two IMHO.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 06:39 PM
Mortoma:

I have re-read my sources (mostly various William Green books including "Famous Fighters", the Warplanes of WW2 series, and "Warplanes of the Third Reich"). I stand corrected on the vertical performance issue, and after playing FB some more, I'd have to agree that the climbing abilities of the 262 are woefully undermodelled, both in the sustained low angle climb and zoom climb. In all other respects (acceleration, engine fragility, turn, roll, etc). I stand by my statements.

Thanks also for a reasonable comment so unlike so much of what we read on this board.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 06:58 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
-
- 2. Best climb speed was around 480kmh IAS, now it is
- around 380kmh IAS, again 100 kmh below the real
- value.
-

Best climb speed of the 262 varied from 475kph(true) at SL to 650kph(true) at 10km.

Source: Fritz Wendel's 262 notes.

In the notes, it says the IAS is the equivalent to TAS above 400kph because of an altitude compensated ASI.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 08:06 PM
Yes Me-262 speed gauge gives TAS. That meant that you could better avoid compressibility but it was heavier to keep the best sustained speed, which was around 480kmh IAS (decreasing slightly after 5000m). Of course in FB speed bar is of great help/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 08:31 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Yes Me-262 speed gauge gives TAS. That meant that
- you could better avoid compressibility but it was
- heavier to keep the best sustained speed, which was
- around 480kmh IAS (decreasing slightly after 5000m).
- Of course in FB speed bar is of great help
-
-

What means "heavier"???


You do know who Fritz Wendel was, eh Huck? If you don't want to believe what he says, OK.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg