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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2004, 08:34 PM
I'm still quite a newbie in this series but one thing that has been bothering me is that the light guns seem to have zero impact unless you shoot like the pilot through glass or perhaps some other especially vulnerable component.

I'm wondering if this philosophy in the damage model also applies to strafing ships? In real life you could take out deck gunners, bridge crew, etc by strafing. Do aircraft guns seem to have any effect in the game on ships?

Also, I'm wondering about the 75mm on the B-25H... I don't know if this gun was historically useful, but is it possible to actually sink ships with this thing? It seems to me that it should have enough penetration to hit magazines and stuff too. (BTW, how many rounds did this plane carry for that gun?)

Chuck_Older
10-23-2004, 08:43 PM
Historically, 75mm cannon armed B-25s could sink even armored ships. Not battleships of course, but a light cruiser at least one time succumbed to a Mitchell with a 75mm gun if I recall correctly

Tater-SW-
10-23-2004, 09:53 PM
The 75mm was an interesting idea, but more or less hated. Many Hs ripped out the 75mm, and threw a few more MGs in there instead.

Strafing ships should supress the guns. I have no idea if this works in PF, it certainly doesn't seem to in AEP. When I get PF, it'll be one of the first things I check. B-25 (and A-20) AI should be able to do mast height attacks, but I have no idea if it does in PF. They need to strafe on their way in to skip bomb to suppress the AAA, that was the whole point of strafers.

tater

LuckyBoy1
10-23-2004, 10:22 PM
Couldn't tell you a thing about PF, but I suspect the damage modelling is much like it is in ACE. Shooting ships with guns won't help. Learn how to skip bomb. Set the fuse delay to zero and come in fast and flat, 50-100 meters off the deck.

Snootles
10-23-2004, 11:40 PM
Even in AEP it was possible to destroy individual AA guns on ships. Considering PF's improved ship DM, I'd hope strafing has its proper effect.

Tater-SW-
10-23-2004, 11:52 PM
It was posted earlier in here that strafing would be more useful vs ships in PF.

As for skipping, I do it in AEP, and I can even get the B-25c and J to skip bomb as AI (flights of 1 plane, under 70m alt, 440kph). The strafer B-25s climb the second they get to the pre-gattack waypoint and make it very hard to get a skip. None will strafe on the way in (does no good in AEP anyway).

Has anyone tested this in PF? Will A-20s and B-25s at low alt given target set gattack waypoints skip, or do they always climb to bomb the old fashioned way? If so, what's the point of having them?

It seems like whatever the AI is for torpedo bombing, it could be slightly altered to do skip bombing. It should start maybe 4-500ft alt, and dive in while strafing, level at 70m (~200ft) and drop the bombs as far as possible. I set the drop in AEP far away because the only delay is the slowing of the bombs as they skip since delay fuses don't work. I guess in PF assuming delay bombs don;t work vs ships you could have the plane also veer to one side right after drop as it climbs. 70m, 440kph, drop, veer/climb.

tater
tater

Mozzie_21
10-24-2004, 01:51 AM
Does anyone know whether strafing the waterline sinks ships?

Also do you have to sink a ship outright or can they sink over a few hours?

weasel75
10-24-2004, 03:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mozzie_21:
Does anyone know whether strafing the waterline sinks ships? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What ship-size?
Big ships: no way. Small ships can be destroyed, but I dont think the water-line is modelled, its rather a certain amount of damage that needs to be reached.

Once a ship received to much damage it sinks. Within 20 seconds. If not damaged enough, it stays afloat (forever or until the next bomb/rocket).

Mozzie_21
10-24-2004, 03:49 AM
Thanks for that weasel. It would have been nice if the ships had even a very basic sinking model.

Da_Godfatha
10-24-2004, 05:24 AM
The Mk.13 torpedo destroys transports with one hit. But you have to be carefull, launched to far away and nothing happens. Against destroyers, it depends on were you hit it. The US .5 inch rockets have seemed to improved. Strafing the ships SEEMS to help, on smaller ships it helps to supress the FLAK. Remember, most Japanese ships, the AAA ginners were exposed..

I hope this helps.

Tvrdi
10-24-2004, 05:38 AM
i noticed that it is not possible to knock out aa guns stationed on a carrier....

Mozzie_21
10-24-2004, 07:41 AM
I recall that there was one battle in the pacific where the Australians were sent in to take out the AA on some Japanese ships and when they finished the Americans came in to sink them. There was a bit of trouble at the time about it.

Godfatha,
I meant that it would be nice if a ship hit on the bow would go down by the bow and so on. Also that a ship with multiple large hull leaks or a broken back would go down quickly whereas a slightly damaged ship could linger for hours (perhaps with the crew nominaly fighting to keep the ship afloat) before sinking.

cbazza
10-24-2004, 08:24 AM
I heard that strafing AAA post on ships could kill the gunners and disable the weapons. Tried it and the gunners (at least on the carriers)can take cannon shells to the head and still fire back.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2004, 03:19 PM
Hmm, that sounds a little disappointing. There was a reason that B25's were packed with all those forward guns... It's too bad that they don't seem to apply in this case.

Has someone tried some extensive strafing... like 10-20 passes on a ship using invulnerability and unlimited ammo?

Tater-SW-
10-24-2004, 03:34 PM
You could also get in the FMB and place a few M16s with quad 50s on the beach, and put a ship next to it... you can "sleep" ships now so they won't fire, right?

tater

Latico
10-24-2004, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cbazza:
I heard that strafing AAA post on ships could kill the gunners and disable the weapons. Tried it and the gunners (at least on the carriers)can take cannon shells to the head and still fire back. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a real fight, if a gunner was dissabled he was replaced by another crewman, if one was available. You pretty much had to take out the guns themselves.

As for small guns like the .50's on US ships, if the gun itself was damaged it could be replaced in a minute or so with a backup, I'm sure that the US Navy expected gun malfunctions and planned apropriately.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2004, 07:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Latico:
As for small guns like the .50's on US ships, if the gun itself was damaged it could be replaced in a minute or so with a backup, I'm sure that the US Navy expected gun malfunctions and planned apropriately. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Replace a .50 in a minute? It sounds to me like you're just making stuff up. This would imply that they kept spare brownings lying around on the deck, something I've never heard of.

Where did you get this idea?

BM357_Raven
10-24-2004, 07:09 PM
Darn ships!!!

Tater-SW-
10-24-2004, 09:00 PM
I don't have a problem with the fact that dead crew were quickly replaced. Even that out of action guns could be brought back to action.

The purpose of strafing the deck guns when skip bombing was to SUPRESSS the guns. Open guns are bad places to be with .50 cal flying. Real gun crews know they can be replaced but they'd prefer to actually LIVE themselves http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif . Look at low alt ship or airfield attack pictures, you can see the gun crews making themselves small.

It'd be just as good or better for a gun that has any hits within some radius (based on AI ability?) stop shooting for a few seconds. Shoot towards some guns, or bombs go off nearby, and they duck for a few seconds. That's all we need.

tater

Latico
10-24-2004, 09:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Replace a .50 in a minute? It sounds to me like you're just making stuff up. This would imply that they kept spare brownings lying around on the deck, something I've never heard of.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I don't know how long it would have taken to replace a .50. Maybe 5 or 10 minutes, maybe longer than that, but I'm sure they had spares nearby. MG's could breakdown or get to jamming bad. Where ever they had their ammo stored there were probably a few spare guns.

Tater,

I'm with you. I'd like to see strafing cause the appropriate momentary halt to deck guns as well. Also, larger guns such as the 40mm that had forward armor but none on the side would send crew ducking when attacked from 2 different directions.

Mozzie_21
10-24-2004, 10:33 PM
Whe strafing the deck there would be lots of richochetes and shrapnel flying around and injuring people. The whole place would be pretty chaotic.

We know from Pearl Harbor that thae guy that Cuba Gooding Jr played that no all of the aa guns were manned.

Latico
10-24-2004, 10:49 PM
Mozzie,

I don't think the attack on Pearl Harbor is a good example of AA, concidering that most of the gun crews were still in there bunks when the first bombs hit. The Kapanese had pretty much a free shot that morning until AA could be brought to bare. The bad thing about that morning is that once most of the AA and AAA WERE manned, the crews were shooting at anything that was airborne, including their own planes.

CV6 Enterprise lost several SBD's to friendly fire as they arrived at Pearl during the 2nd wave of attacks.

Mozzie_21
10-24-2004, 11:19 PM
My point is that in battle things get pretty hectic and all plans and training tend to go out of the window. Especially when casualties and damage starts to occur.

Philipscdrw
10-25-2004, 12:28 AM
I thought that IRL ships would fire at ANY aircraft that wasn't absolutely definitely friendly, just in case it was a torpedo bomber.

But rembember: The more compicated the AI gunners are, the more CPU they take, and we get bigger frame rate hits when they're around.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2004, 05:06 PM
So has anyone done any kind of serious testing to see if you can detect any suppression effects?

If someone with PF wouldn't mind trying this... fly an A20 with unlimited ammo and invulnerability... Can you knock out guns? Does a single strafing pass have any significant impact on a ship's AAA capabilities?

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2004, 02:26 PM
Would someone with PF mind testing if strafing actually suppresses gunfire from a ship?

Tater-SW-
10-28-2004, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mozzie_21:
My point is that in battle things get pretty hectic and all plans and training tend to go out of the window. Especially when casualties and damage starts to occur. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, training doesn;t go out the window. Large scale planning might, but GQ sounds, and the crew mans the guns out of reflex. The Japanese flyers at Pearl remarked at just how quickly the US AAA fire came up, they were stunned at the volume of fire, and the speed at which these peacetime ships manned their guns and retaliated.

That said, individual gun crews will certainly seek cover when it is clear they themselves are the specific target of attack, that is also reflex.

tater

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2004, 04:56 PM
Here are some interesting quotes from General Whitehead of the 5AF regarding the use of strafing against shipping in the Pacific:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
"The medium-level bombing was surprisingly effective. Strafing by our attack bombers and the RAAF Beaufighter squadron proved adequate in the neutralization of destroyer and light cruiser AA.
...
General Whitehead noted that the 50-caliber "gun is adequate for strafing such targets. The eight-gun B-25C-1 has, however, only half enough firepower. From fifteen to twenty [.50-caliber] guns firing forward would give a suitable covering fire for attack bomber operations against warships."
...
As many as fourteen forward-firing .50-caliber guns were added to some later model B-25s, as well as eight five-inch rockets and a 75-mm cannon, which "Pappy" Gunn had perfected. In addition, the B-25H, the most lethal of all B-25s, also was able to carry a hefty 3,000 pounds of bombs. As General Kenney commented in the Air Force article, "The greatest commerce destroyer of the war had been born. We hurriedly remodeled every B-25 we could get our hands on and made the phrase 'air blockade' mean something."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This comes from an article that Tater mentioned in another thread:

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Aug1996/0896victory.asp

The whole article is neat... it covers the use of air power against shipping over the Bismark Sea and Rabaul.

Anyway, this is why I want to know if strafing is useful in the game. It's also why I have been clammoring so much to get the B25H http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tater-SW-
10-28-2004, 05:08 PM
I read a lot of the B-25Hs had their finiky 75mm guns pulled in the field and replaced with a couple more .50 cals, too.

BTW, there was also a gun nose of the B-25J with 8x.50 cal in the nose. The nose looks identical, as far as I can tell in terms of shape. Add 8 gun barrels, paint the glass green, and dump the bombadier spot and we get a new B-25 for nearly free.

tater

Shrap
10-28-2004, 05:20 PM
Strafing supply ships/submarines in PF w/ 50 cals seems to have no effect.


And ships have decent damage/flooding models (no where as good as the planes obviously).

clint-ruin
10-28-2004, 05:34 PM
Certainly doesn't seem to have the effect of shutting down gunners in PF 3.00.

There may be some simple code-fix for this? If the object gets hit by any volume of fire [x rounds in x seconds] the ship changes to "sleep" state for double that number of seconds? Something like that?

Tater-SW-
10-28-2004, 05:47 PM
Yeah, i thought I read that it would be possible in PF for MGs to soften up ships.

tater

NegativeGee
10-28-2004, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Yeah, i thought I read that it would be possible in PF for MGs to soften up ships.

tater <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sadly strafing does not seem to have any effect on gun turrets/crews at the moment. I even tried flying a Ki-84 at 600kph into the starboard side of the Illustrious's superstructure but it only inflicted some minor damage and disabled 1 of the 20 or so gunners crammed onto the side.

Tater-SW-
10-28-2004, 08:53 PM
Argh, that is a big problem, IMHO.

I think oit was on simhq, but I though I read the visible crew weren't modeled in terms of damage, just a small area (the gun itself or part of it) that has to get hit. What they SHOULD do, is to make the "hitbox" (such as it is) bigger for the small guns to represent the fact MGs and tiny auto cannon are typically open mounts. Easy to kill the MGs, hard to kill the 5/38s in turrets.

It solves a bunch of frame rate related AAA problems into the bargain!

tater

Daiichidoku
10-29-2004, 12:29 AM
None of this matters, anyhow...

At least until they start putting Tiger Tanks on ship decks...

Cess-Harp
10-29-2004, 01:16 AM
As for what someone wrote on one of the post further up, about the .50's and having replacements close by.
Well they did, and if some of the old movie tone films of the time you can see the gunners mates pulling gun barrels off the rack on the back wall, or off the rack that hung on the railing. And if you look you can see the main case of the guns. Some even with the pin slide latch for the twins or the quads.
A .50's barrel would only last a short while firring under some of the conditions that they where used under.
And had to be changed quit frequently, or the barrel would burn up or as some of the night shots showed them glowing red from the heat that was put of.
And don't blame them either with the suicide pilots who would not stop for nothing but death or the plane shot away.

Even the 1 inches/100 caliber guns had to change there barrels quite often.

So no I do not think he was just making it up as he went along. Look up the life span of the barrels of the .50s in the aircraft.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2004, 02:15 AM
Yeah, of course they replaced barrels regularly during operation... but the entire gun? I think not likely except between firefights.

NegativeGee
10-29-2004, 02:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Argh, that is a big problem, IMHO.

I think oit was on simhq, but I though I read the visible crew weren't modeled in terms of damage, just a small area (the gun itself or part of it) that has to get hit. What they SHOULD do, is to make the "hitbox" (such as it is) bigger for the small guns to represent the fact MGs and tiny auto cannon are typically open mounts. Easy to kill the MGs, hard to kill the 5/38s in turret. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds a good idea to me.... those open gun positions would be vunerable to strafing attacks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It solves a bunch of frame rate related AAA problems into the bargain!

tater <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2004, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
As many as fourteen forward-firing .50-caliber guns were added to some later model B-25s
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Incidentally, there was a J model with 12 fixed forward .50's... Althgough the J we have in the game is the glass cockpit with a bombardier.

I hope we can get this strafer model of the J in the game at somepoint too...