PDA

View Full Version : Man I knew it! This sucks!



XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 07:20 PM
Well I've been flying online for a little while now. Seems like no matter what I'm flying I'm getting out turned by most people I come across. I'm working my tail off working the angles, and trying to BnZ when possible.
Best I can do is get 1 for 1 or 1 kill per death online. I couldn't figure it out as I had 109's out turning me when flying russian planes. Like the P-40 for example.
I never could get the FW to turn worth a dang either, but I've seen them crank around against me.

Then I realised sometimes it seems like I'm on. You know I can hold my own dogfights are on edge. Lot's of fun.

Other times it seems like I wasted my time booting it up. Everyone is all over me, and I can't get my guns on them for anything.

Now I realize what the problem is, and yes I WANT IT FIXED!!

I also began to notice it seemed that on maps where the bases were very close I did better than when I had to fly awhile.

It's because when I had to fly a long distance to target I would get my altitude, and then trim for level flight.
When the bases were close, and almost instant action like I didn't trim the aircraft.

I had been reading those threads by RBJ, and Raaid. Well it's settled the more up trim you add the sharper you turn.

I've never blacked out so much in all the time I've been playing FB. Sure I felt dirty because I don't like an resemblance of cheating even if it's just using a glitch in the FM. Then I realised that even trimmed up I was barely out turning 109's, and 190's in a Yak-3.
Then a couple I would get behind, and they couldn't shake me if they dreamed. Then I realised "Thats me!" yup thats probably what most of my previous opponents were thinking.

Anyway it comes to my attention that more than a few people are using this online.

I mean it sounds silly maybe but I can recall several previous times online when I was in I-16's, I-153's, and B-239's and had Mig's, and 109's holding with me in a turn. Not just holding but actually getting a gun solution which means they have to out turn me.

Now I don't want trim like IL2 so people can use two joysticks. I don't want the trim thats in FB now. I don't think there's really anyway to fix it either except one.
Take it away! Simply remove the trim, and have the aircraft auto trim for level flight.
It does remove some realism, but it does away with a greater evil of trim turning.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 07:20 PM
Well I've been flying online for a little while now. Seems like no matter what I'm flying I'm getting out turned by most people I come across. I'm working my tail off working the angles, and trying to BnZ when possible.
Best I can do is get 1 for 1 or 1 kill per death online. I couldn't figure it out as I had 109's out turning me when flying russian planes. Like the P-40 for example.
I never could get the FW to turn worth a dang either, but I've seen them crank around against me.

Then I realised sometimes it seems like I'm on. You know I can hold my own dogfights are on edge. Lot's of fun.

Other times it seems like I wasted my time booting it up. Everyone is all over me, and I can't get my guns on them for anything.

Now I realize what the problem is, and yes I WANT IT FIXED!!

I also began to notice it seemed that on maps where the bases were very close I did better than when I had to fly awhile.

It's because when I had to fly a long distance to target I would get my altitude, and then trim for level flight.
When the bases were close, and almost instant action like I didn't trim the aircraft.

I had been reading those threads by RBJ, and Raaid. Well it's settled the more up trim you add the sharper you turn.

I've never blacked out so much in all the time I've been playing FB. Sure I felt dirty because I don't like an resemblance of cheating even if it's just using a glitch in the FM. Then I realised that even trimmed up I was barely out turning 109's, and 190's in a Yak-3.
Then a couple I would get behind, and they couldn't shake me if they dreamed. Then I realised "Thats me!" yup thats probably what most of my previous opponents were thinking.

Anyway it comes to my attention that more than a few people are using this online.

I mean it sounds silly maybe but I can recall several previous times online when I was in I-16's, I-153's, and B-239's and had Mig's, and 109's holding with me in a turn. Not just holding but actually getting a gun solution which means they have to out turn me.

Now I don't want trim like IL2 so people can use two joysticks. I don't want the trim thats in FB now. I don't think there's really anyway to fix it either except one.
Take it away! Simply remove the trim, and have the aircraft auto trim for level flight.
It does remove some realism, but it does away with a greater evil of trim turning.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 07:25 PM
rbj building up posts on all his fanclub names, tssk


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 10:36 PM
If you want to increase your kill/death ratio...fly against me more often! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://images.ucomics.com/images/doonesbury/strip/thecast/duke2.jpg


"Death before Unconsciousness" - Uncle Duke

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 10:54 PM
I only trim to level. Otherwise, I leave it alone. I think the trim cheat is overblown and not as pervasive as the 2 or 3 people here seem to think it is. I personally do not know of anyone who uses trim other than for it's intended purpose. I, for one, do not and will not worry about it.

I do, however, make good use of combat flaps to tighten a turn. That's what they're there for.

<center>http://banners.wunderground.com/banner/gizmotimetemp_both/language/www/US/TX/Dallas.gif </center>

T_O_A_D
09-28-2003, 11:08 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- rbj building up posts on all his fanclub names, tssk


Sure enjoyed you server last night. I wonder if there is a allied plane that has close to the spit performance that you could fudge into the BOB mission.Till we if ever get the real thing. You guys were tough as nails in the 109 against that hurry I was in. I had trouble catching up and when I did my pea shooters were dang near usless with my lousy targeting. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

<Left>
131st_VFW (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/index.htm)

<Left>
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif MY Track IR Fix (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_ts&id=zwqtg)


<Center>http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/Mad_toad.jpg </a>

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 11:12 PM
Why don't we take away the throttle commands to so people aren't using emergency power to get an advantage... hey we can also take away the rudder commands so those without a twist stick can get a fair fight too?

Who needs the trigger to shoot the guns? Just have the program shoot when the angle is correct?

Hell, just boot the program and go into the livingroom and eat doritos and watch TV... let the PC's just fight each other while we are at it? Yeah... that sounds great!!!

Or, we can learn to live and like what we have instead. As a bomber pilot, I rely on manually inputting both rudder and elevator trim to maintain a good bomb run. I don't want the PC to make those trim inputs for me automatically.

Some of us do more than just dogfight online.



-LO!

<p align="center">
http://bellsouthpwp.net/l/o/lordoliver/forum_misc/LOsunset.jpg </img>

Wir sind die schwarzen Husaren der Luft,
Die Stukas, die Stukas, die Stukas!

--------------------------------------------

LordOliver -> StG77_Ollie
StG-77 Interim Website (http://members.fortunecity.com/stg77/headquarters.htm)
My personal page (http://bellsouthpwp.net/l/o/lordoliver/)</p>

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 12:51 AM
First of all I'm not one of RBJ's other identity's. If you read back through all my previous posts on various subjects you could easily descern that.

It does make a significant difference in aircraft performance though. I'm not saying it can't be match with just stick movements, but I didn't stall, and spin once the entire time.

I'm speaking of blackout high G turns at all speeds. Not just 400+ but down low as well.

Some of you seem to get very mean anytime someone mentions anything about the trim. Beginning with saying I'm somebody else. Then just getting plain silly in your posts when I suggest the only possible way to prevent people from taking advantage of the trim flaw.
If there's another way to keep the trim by all means lets have it. They could remodel all the aircraft adding little trim tabs like real ones. Then reprogramming all their FM's so the trim has a realistic effect.

I never even needed combat flaps using the trim. Couldn't stall anything unless I just let speed bleed off. Kept blacking out and this was on Greatergreen server.

Another note I chased people around, but I didn't shoot anyone down. I don't like taking advantage of glitches in the FM like I said before.

I merely wanted to test out what I had heard on here, and post the results. Result is not only does the aircraft turn harder with excessive trim, but it also doesn't suffer from Stall/snap problems. So until you add in stick input you don't even get feedback from the joystick that your pulling hard G's.

By the way for you brainless folks who just like to attempt to poke fun at someone who just wants a straight up realistic dogfight. RBJ, and the Raaid guy both wanted trim back fast so they could fly with two joysticks.
RBJ actually said you could still use the trim advantage so it didn't matter.

Although I'm not using his method I see now that most definitely many others are. So I doubt I'll be flying online anymore then. Unless something comes around to fix it.

I mean if everyone uses it then thats fine, but I've spent the last 2 months not using it. Watching the strange anomolies around me, and spending hours in QMB trying to reproduce a turn. So it's strictly off-line which is still great fun as none of this kind of junk matters.

I'm not trying to say it's a bad game. It's a great sim however after testing the trim thing out online. It's obvious whats going on. And nobody can say I'm just a poor pilot without using it and the trim makes up for my lack of skills. I've spent way too much time flying in QMB (free flight mode for me) with no enemies just flying to see what all I can get the aircraft to do.

So if you don't us it good for you, but the next time your fighting it out, and you look back, and watch that 109 come cranking onto your 6. At least now you won't have to wonder how he stuck with your I-16.


Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 01:44 AM
Man,I came online like a week ago,used to play offline exclusively.I do like the online experience,fly on Greater green and still quite ignorant about the trim thing!I did see people outturn me in a 109,so why not just learn the same trick?It is a simulator,after all,so when in Rome do as the Romans do!

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 01:51 AM
Online combat flying has a pretty steep learning curve. You have been flying online for about 2 months? Give yourself a chance. In those 2 months you have probably made alot of progress you didn't even notice. There is a large amount of people flying online that have been doing it for 5+ years (myself included). Most of the people I fly with don't make any major adjustments to their aircraft, they have just developed skills over a long period of time that allows them to keep an advantageous position in most dogfights. Also, fly with the really good pilots and soon enough you will have them in your sights.

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 02:08 AM
Well I've got a lot of simulator experience as well as real flying experience. I love IL2 Forgotten Battles all in all, and it's become my favorite game.
Yet I've spent like I said a lot of time in QMB all by myself with just a couple of aircraft. Learning how best to get all they can offer. Especially the BF-109 F-4, and the Mig-3U as well as the P-40.
I think I fly really good as far as manuevers, take offs, landings, etc. In combat I tend to start strong, and lose sight of them, and get downed. That was pretty typical of my online time.

However I remember the first time I noticed this, and it was a constant deal. I had been flying 109's and had gotten to the point I was dowing real online pilots in IL2's with a single pass. That was in the BnZ also, and it started to feel really good to me. Before I just couldn't fly a 109 for anything.

Anyway things got unbalanced so I hopped over to the Russian side, and grabbed myself a P-39 as there was no Mig-3's or P-40's available. Several times I was hard into a turn I could feel my stick vibrating, and the screen was darkening. I'd check my high 6 on whatever side I was turning too. Then I saw this 109 come turning in behind me and he was close on my tail so it wasn't a simple angles thing. Where even a poor turner like the 109 can get a shot if he has a little room to lea them with a shallow turn.

He turned in the same direction I was turning harder than I could have gotten that P-39 to crank for sure. I was full on combat flaps, rad closed, and I saw his nose continue to come around. He was going to have an angle on me shortly. I couldn't believe he was turning with me like that so I did the only thing I could think to do. I chopped the throttle,and opened the radiator hoping to tighten my turn.
When I saw him continue to follow me through the turn, and he began firing. My only option left was to jerk the stick full back, and stall/snap.

All of that happened really fast maybe 1 1/2 turns. Now I know a 109 can be made to snap around 180 degree's on a dime without any trim tricks. If the speed is right anyway, and you know just how to do it. However sustained turns on the inside of a P-39? I mean he pulled no yo-yo or anything. Just got in behind me, and kept cranking around.

However now the delimma. Online do I trim for level flight or do I just leave it alone trimmed for a slight climb. In knowing trimming for level will hinder me. I mean I try to play honorable as I can. So I can either knowingly hinder myself, play dumb to the trim and leave it alone, or use it which I don't want to do.

To me it's an online morale dilemma.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 02:08 AM
jensenpark wrote:
- If you want to increase your kill/death ratio...fly
- against me more often!

Same here. I'm an easy mark, ask anyone who's flown against me. I was thinking about making a skin that I would use on all planes and would replace every skin in my Paintschemes folder with. It will show croshair targets at each wing root, the engine and anywhere the armour was thin. Come to think of it I don't need to do that. It's happeneing already. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Stop complaining and practice more. Undoubtably that how your opponents are shooting you down so much, they practiced.

(I can just hear the conversation now...."I say Major, we need to have those Jerrys give us a break and not fly those advanced fighters until we have the Spitfire. It's just not fair sir!")



<center>Beebop-ProudBirds-VFW<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/230903-Beebop%20Sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 02:10 AM
I just love these kinds of threads.

<center>
http://sunstarentertainment.maddsites.com/images/151sig.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat/
JOIN OUR SQUAD TODAY!
http://sunstarentertainment.maddsites.com/images/1banner.gif

http://sunstarentertainment.maddsites.com/il2homepage.html

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 02:26 AM
Hopperfly22 wrote:
- Anyway things got unbalanced so I hopped over to the
- Russian side, and grabbed myself a P-39 as there was
- no Mig-3's or P-40's available. Several times I was
- hard into a turn I could feel my stick vibrating,
- and the screen was darkening. I'd check my high 6
- on whatever side I was turning too. Then I saw this
- 109 come turning in behind me and he was close on my
- tail so it wasn't a simple angles thing. Where even
- a poor turner like the 109 can get a shot if he has
- a little room to lea them with a shallow turn.
-
- He turned in the same direction I was turning harder
- than I could have gotten that P-39 to crank for
- sure. I was full on combat flaps, rad closed, and I
- saw his nose continue to come around. He was going
- to have an angle on me shortly. I couldn't believe
- he was turning with me like that so I did the only
- thing I could think to do. I chopped the
- throttle,and opened the radiator hoping to tighten
- my turn.
- When I saw him continue to follow me through the
- turn, and he began firing. My only option left was
- to jerk the stick full back, and stall/snap.

Simple, you bled off too much energy and the 109 was able to get in close on lag pursuit and place his sights on you. The only way to win against a bogey on your six is to keep him at a distance or use surprise and peel off quickly before you're sighted.

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 02:49 AM
IMO trim works fine in turns...you just have to time it differently since it is slower. Nobody else is using trim that way (the old IL2 way) either so it is a level playing field...what exactly is your point? Just keep on practicing.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 03:13 AM
Applause!

Trouble with the trim cheat is that it although you could say "it's using whatever you got". Doing it mucks around with all the FM's so much (comparativly) that it turns the game into a bit of a shooter, imho.

Agree with what said earlier about experience making you better at using this, but just think doing so is getting away from the "spirit" of the game.

Such great care has been taken into making this sim as accurate as possible it's seems a shame that to get the "edge/kills" people will do unrealistic things!

Before I get flamed for that comment it's like putting vector thrusters on WW2 fighters,,, and not tellin everyone they got em'

A lot of people (myself included) play this game because it is the best/most realistic flight sim (yes flight sim not just combat sim) around. I think at it's best the trim situation makes the playing field uneven, and at it's worst I feel like I'm playing UT2003.

Either way you look at it there would not be a lot of difference in terms if skill/experience still being the most critical factors for success.

So why is it still here?

I know next to nothing about how something like IL2/FB is put together but wouldn't be suprised if it was something to do with the limitations and design of the FM from the outset.

Just think if everyone flew the planes as 1c intended (?) it would be a better online game..

S!

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 03:33 AM
Well I'm not really trying to gripe, or whine. I think though it's a FM flaw that involves all aircraft. So it can be considered fair. Yet still makes the game just seem a little less realistic.

I'm no ace for sure I make a lot of mistakes online dogfighting. Mainly from when I'm imaptient or too kill hungry. At least people aren't sneaking up behind me anymore.

I guess maybe I'll have to go grab my 19" monitor so I can crank the resolution up. I can't hardly see to BnZ, and end up just making a pointless dive 75% of the time.

I also find it seems that whenever I'm flying something it soaks up about 1/3 of the damage compared to when I'm shooting at it. I was just online, and emptied my guns on a P-39. He fireballed for sure, but needless to say it took every round I had.



Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 04:36 AM
The problem is not necessarily the trim, it's more that people have a natural tendancy to not want to believe someone bested them. I'm guilty of it myself. I found myself thinking, after an La-7 magically positioned himself from my 12 to my 6 and killed my Yak, "That #$#%%^ing La--no way he can turn with me like that!! I'm in a Yak for christ's sake!"

Obviously, he was cheating. Trimming like a mofo. At least that was my first reaction. Then, after I calmed down, decided I was killed by a superior pilot in a superior aircraft who had superior speed. Nothing more, nothing less. So, I gave him a S! and proceeded to hunt him down for the next hour for having the gall to be better than me.

Do some people trim-turn? Yes. Does it make them invincible? No, not at all. It makes them a target. IMO, the trim is really a non-issue. What's more of a problem is people's ego. They will latch on to any excuse they can so they don't have to be a loser. The majority of the accusations of cheating I see online are nothing more than that--completely baseless accusations from a guy who can't understand how he just got shot down. A sore loser.

(This is not directed to Hopperfly or anyone else, just a general observation and opinion.)

I still laugh when I think of the guy who cried for 15 minutes how my Yak9T simply cannot take his wing off with one shot. BS, he says. So, I proved it to him three more times before he left.



<center>http://banners.wunderground.com/banner/gizmotimetemp_both/language/www/US/TX/Dallas.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 05:12 AM
I have trim on a slider but only use it for level flight and I will trim back slightly when in a turning fight to allow for the lower speed but never use it to do bat turns.
The real way to turn a 109 tightly is to throttle back and adjust prop pitch to a suitable finer setting and you can stick with most in a turn, but really you dont want to follow for more than a turn before climbing away to attack again.
I find if you use to much trim your plane tends to become a bit unstable and the blackouts become a problem, Im not sure if its really much of an advantage, its much better to find a good corner speed and ride the edge of a stall in my opinion.

JG4_Tiger

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 05:57 AM
Just for the record I'm not accusing everyone who's ever shot me down of trim turning. However at times when I know my aircraft accels in that area over my chaser. I have seen some anomolies.
I salute people when they make a good kill, and I've been saluted.

However I think I can sum up the majority of my online deaths to two seperate types. The I'm in a Russian fighter, and get out turned by a 109. In the turn is where I'll be unless I'm in a Mig-3 as they don't turn so hot.

The other is in 109's when I BnZ only to get pelted by scattergun MG fire as I climb away. It's so fragile it takes hardly any fire before it's FUBAR.

Also 90% of my 109 kills happen while turn fighting, and 90% of my allied kills happen in the BnZ.

Am I just FUBAR?

Also off topic but has anyone noticed how it seems every map the aircraft act differently?
Maybe it's just me but on one map I'm cutting power trying to keep my wings in a dive, and another I'm full power, and can't even get the 109 to start shuddering.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 06:37 AM
There is an extremely simple and logical way to fix this. It also adds to the realism of the game.

It's called airframe stress limits. I have a thread started in ORR about it.

With stress limits, people won't be able to pull trim-enhanced bat turns--unless they think folding their wings around their plane and dropping like a stone is victory. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We can make trim the normal, responsive system it should be, ala real life, and the bat turning disappears.

For a few days, we also get to laugh at the people who still try it and snap their planes in half.

Stenciled on the side of my Dora:

"Lasst das H√¬∂llentor √¬∂ffen, es friert hier oben!"
("Leave the gates to Hell open, it's FREEZING up here!")

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 07:07 AM
Sorry guys I am new to this issue.

I thought so far, that the trim does not affect tohe overall performance (turn rate) of the plane.

So you say that when turning you can trim your plane into a steep climb and your turn rate increases as if you'd shift your elevator limits proportionally with the trim ?

sounds odd...

Thx in advance

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 07:26 AM
lol

Chin up ..HUTCH


http://www.il2skins.com/skins/thumbs/781.jpg

http://il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=781

Next time your in Eugene,Oregon come see me at my internet/lan center....I have 2 systems runing FB
http://64.122.43.227/

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 07:37 AM
No trim doesn't seem to change travel difference. It just seems the game looks at trim differently than elevator input.

Example I can trim into a blackout turn with no shudder or stalling/snapping. If I trim for level flight, and attempt the same turn I will get joystick shudder, and stalling/snapping long before I reach blackout.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 08:02 AM
I thought all this crap had been fixed for FB.
I tried it last night offline and, yes, exactly the same old il2 bug (except the trim takes longer to react).

No stall or shake at all with elevator trim fully on in a tight turn; I could spiral gently down to ground at 120kph on a knife edge in an La5, let the wing touch, and fly back up again.

Damn it. It probably explains a lot of mysterious kills I have suffered recently.

<CENTER>http://www.666th.com/uploads/forumsigs/5-il2logo.gif</CENTER>

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 08:53 AM
If maximum turn performance through trim manipulation becomes a major issue in the success or failure of your efforts, that's a great sign that your tactics are poor. Stop getting suckered into turning fights.


If you want to start winning in the air, forget about trim and starting thinking about your SA instead.

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 09:50 AM
Welcome to combat flight sims. Every combat flight sim that has ever had trim, you need to use it in turns to perform. Keep practcing with it, and you'll get better. I also recommend the RBJ ShiftT, so you don't have to worry about waiting 15 seconds for the trim to take effect, yet can still fly level and hands free at an instant.

And for those of you who say "turning doesn't matter much" get a clue. Not only will you win the tie-ups, but you'll also be able to have sharper head to head AoA, and better reactions, ability to land more shots on high speed BnZ flybys, etc. Turning is 50% of a planes dogfighting ability.

It's just one of those things that separates the noobie pilots from the aces. Save your Quake/Counterstrike arguments for the Susan B Anthony society. Out here we are combat sim pilots, not full realism crybabies. If it's in the game, it's in the game. Once you get good at combat sims, you'll want the fast moving trim of IL2 back (like me). Aces prefer to have more control of their plane, not less.

Fast trim is a more level playing field too. Nowadays in FB it's only those who do the RBJ Shift who have a chance. I keep telling people this but they are so blind, they want so bad to believe that what Oleg did was for the better, and that anything I say must be wrong. FB is a worse sim than IL2 because of what they did to the trim. IL2 was a classic, FB is just a flash in the pan, a speed bump on the way to the next great comabt sim, whoever makes it.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 10:24 AM
I just want realism not super duper turns that are unrealistic. I don't thin most are using trim to any great extent.

Just that I notice my bad days revolved around maps where I would trim for level flight to get to the fighting area. If I just leave the trim alone everything seems on the level. Also I would trim for level flight at high speeds which means more down trim. I was really killing my turning ability. I've decided just not to touch it except in bombers. That way the trim is just neutral, and that feels, and seem right. Dogfights feel good at that setting, and it becomes more of an angle fight.

I haven't seen anyone bat turning yet. I know without trim you can make 109's, and yak's turn on a dime for 180 degree's. I think others are right though and people are just getting the angle on me, and I'm making too many mistakes.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 05:24 PM
> If maximum turn performance through trim manipulation
> becomes a major issue in the success or failure of your
> efforts, that's a great sign that your tactics are poor.
> Stop getting suckered into turning fights.

Thanks for your words of wisdom Bronco. Point is though, that I didn't know it was still an issue, and so I wasn't attempting to avoid situations where it would make a difference. Now I know that this is still an issue, I will re-assign my slider to trim and give as good as I have been taking.

Major issue? It is more than just a tighter turn. Eg.

My plane (no slider-trim): stalls, snaps, normal turn-circle, unstability at low alt and speed, bleeds energy during shaking.

Their plane (slider-trim): no stall, no snap, go as slow and low as they want to position themselves for a shot, small turn-circle, completely stable aircraft so less energy bleed.

If you are both low and slow, you should still have a decent chance of shaking your opponent or making him crash. But if the guy behind you has slider-trim (and you haven't) you are 98% deadmeat everytime; the great maneuvres that you've been practising for weeks really don't matter much anymore.

I agree that high and fast, trim-slider matters less because it is more-so just a matter of tighter turning circle. But low and slow, far from being a 'great sign of poor tactics', getting beaten by someone using slider-trim is no sign at all; it's just bloody annoying. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



<CENTER>http://www.666th.com/uploads/forumsigs/5-il2logo.gif</CENTER>

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 07:12 PM
I would say being low and slow is a good sign that your tactics need help.

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 07:34 PM
I get really pi**ed when someone tells me that that is the way the game is and get on with it or bog off!!

RBJ you have absolutely no right at all to infer that me and others are sad because we like to fly in something as close to realism as the tech available supports.

I ask the same question again if you took the trim situation away WHAT DIFFERENCE WOULD IT MAKE!!

The playing field would be no less or no more equal,,,, so why is it there!!

I am in no way whining about getting shot down at all. Better pilots do it to me all the time, that is not the issue for me. What my beef is that it makes the panes fly unrealistically for no net gain to anyone in the end..

Sorry to flame but imo RBJ and others like him are responsible via their thinking/ethos of distorting history/truth to suit their own ends. Post modernism people!!!!

In short if you don't like the fact that people put realism high up on their list of priorities it should be you lot that bu**er off and play something a bit more arcady, don't tell us to unless by general concensus.

Maybe we should have a poll?

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 07:39 PM
The higher your speed, the more trim helps. Doesn't matter if you are high or low. If you are high, you'll benefit from trim when you are diving on someone because you can make much better last second adjustments to land your shot, and the trim will make your shot window much wider. Maneuverability is a key component in all dogfighters, and trim is a must.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 04:55 AM
This is f**kn bull$hit. Trim does NOT help real airplanes make better turns. This is definitely where IL-2/FB strays into video game-land. It would be really nice if they could fix this.

If you master the use of trim to help in dogfights, you are being a good "gamer", not a good simulated pilot. However, as long as this error is kept in the game, I don't have anything against people exploiting it to gain an edge. Why shouldn't you? Because of principles? Please. No matter how much some people want to believe otherwise, it IS still just a video game.

I just wish trim was modelled realistically, so this issue could go away. What will RBJ do then? He will be left only with the "force".

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 05:10 AM
What people don't understand is that this trim thing isn't a flaw in the FM. What trim does is allow a more subtle pitch movement. If you're right close to stalling and pull back more, the elevator moves, pitch increases and the stall angle is reached, resulting in a stall. However, moving trim actuates a trim tab, resulting in a more subtle pitch movement allowing you to stay on the edge. Only the tab moves and not the entire elevator.
I know this is a pretty simple explanation but it works.
Mani


"An excellent weapon and luck had been on my side. To be successfful, the best fighter pilot needs both"
Adolph Galland

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 05:41 AM
I thought that in real a/c the purpose of the trim tab was to relieve the pilot of putting pressure on the stick to maintain a certain attitude.

the tiny tab would deflect and make the whole control surface move in the opposite direction. I have heard of real pilots who used a lot of trim on their aircraft, elevator up trim, and when they came into land and tried to flare out by pulling back on the stick, they landed hard because they had full elevator up trim applied and this limited what elevator they had left. I have never heard that use of trim would make the plane turn tighter, it just relieved stick forces thats all.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 06:00 AM
Yup thats all it is for. It's just a little tab that counteracts the pressure on the elevator making the controls lighter. Which allows a pilot to fly longer with less fatigue.

It in no way affects elevator travel. Also if you to pull full up elevator and add in full down trim. The only thing you would notice is a slight pressure increase on the stick making it harder to keep pulled.

Using trims to make crazy turns is gamey stupid, and unrealistic.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:11 AM
Absolutely right. Trim does not affect elevator travel. Well put.

In this game it does, though. What a shame.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:25 AM
Put down the pipe you all.

Trim DOES effect elevator travel, that that is for sure.

It's only at high speeds though, where elevator travel that can be pulled by the pilots arm strengh is being restricted by high speed airflow.

At lower speeds, it will move the elevator too, but not more than the pilot could with just his arms.

Quit trying to confuse people and learn how to fly the sim.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:29 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- If you are high, you'll benefit from trim

Can I quote you on that? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<font size="-2">'Perfect' is enemy of 'good enough' --Admiral Gorshkov
It's a trap! --Admiral Ackbar</font>

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:56 AM
RBJ, don't take it from us. Read the FAA Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge. There you will see how trim works.

Again, it does not increase turn performance or elevator travel. It is used only to make straight and level flight easier on the pilot.

You are confusing this game with reality.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 09:57 AM
the trim cheat is not such cheat since real figthers used the trim to turn at high speeds since using the trim is the wind that produces the force on the elevator, making possible turn harder using the trim that not using it when the force on the stick is a problem

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:03 AM
Ummm...whatever THAT means.

?

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:22 AM
Real pilots do not use the trim to turn harder!!!!! <----- !!!!!

Oh my world tis a sad and woefull place.


Ok "IF" a pilot lacked the strength during high speed flight to operate the stick. The only suitable time for such a scenario is in a dive. He could then use the trim to get the aircrafts nose up in order to decelerate enough to be able once again to move the stick.

So how many times can you bench 100+ lbs? Pilots simply did not crank into high speed turns, and then use trim to turn harder. Let's count the reasons shall we? Okay...

Reason #1 - G forces at this point are at the pilots limit especially in WWII. Lack of any or decent pressure suits meant anything over 6 G's was chancing death because in real life when you black out you can't still barely see. It also takes a lot more than a few seconds to wake back up at which point you go right back to what you were doing without realising that you blacked out. Kind of like boxers who get knocked out and then ask "What happened?"

Reason #2 - The aircraft simply wasn't designed to handle that amount of stress. Thats why the Stuka had dive brakes to keep it at or below 450 mph and also had a hydraulic actuator on the elevator as well as an automatic leveler in order to make the 6 G pullout required. So wether the pilot was awake or not the aircraft would recover.

That enough reasons for anyone with even a fraction of common sense.

It's called learn to fly the aircraft within it's intended envelope. If it won't do it without trim/cheat turning it never could, and wasn't able to.


Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:38 AM
g forces to high you black out,
too much strees , the plane brakes down
both well modelled

now you trim at high speed, the necesary force to raise the elevator decreases since the force of the wind does part of the work. Therefore when the efectivity of a high speed turn depends on the force you can hold on the stick you will always turn faster by using the trim.
well modelled

21 seconds for 1 revolution of the trim
wrong modelled

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 12:25 PM
A real pilot cannot trim and hold the stick back at the same time.

Also Raaid you are absolutely right that if you trimmed full up trim it would make the stick lighter at high speeds.

However neither human strength nor fatigue if factored into FB. Moving the trim actually moves the elevator a large amount. The game also recognizes the trim differently than stick inputs. Which is why you can trim full up through a hard turn without a shudder. All you get is blackout effects. Real trim would never allow you to do that in real life.

In the game no matter the speed when you pull full back on the stick the elevator moves as far as it can. Airspeed effects only how fast it will move. Which is realistic.

However when you add trim in with FB your actually making the game think the elevator is moving further than it can.

Also real trim isn't a one turn deal. It's geared in various ways on different aircraft to allow fine tuning for hands off flight.

Or else a real P-47 pilot who went to fast in a dive would not have written "...I cranked furiously on the trim control...slowly the nose came back up, and she began to climb...I grabbed the stick and with everything I had pulled back on it...as she bled off some more speed I was able to pull up from the dive."

Even at high speeds trim has very little effect. Does it help? Only if human strength is a factor which it isn't in FB.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:48 PM
Bronco_Nagurski wrote:
- RBJ, don't take it from us. Read the FAA Pilot's
- Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge. There you will
- see how trim works.
-
- Again, it does not increase turn performance or
- elevator travel. It is used only to make straight
- and level flight easier on the pilot.
-
- You are confusing this game with reality.


The FAA pilot's handbook is for people learning to fly, not combat aces living on the edge. If you think trim is "used only to make straight and level flight easier on the pilot" then you need to wake up, and read some real WW2 ace accounts.

Quit trying to bring your cessna logic into the realm of combat flight sims. Out here, we are trying to fly the plane at the limit, not cross country to Grandma's house.





"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 09:22 PM
"A real pilot cannot trim and hold the stick back at the same time"
notice all elevator trims (g e the p40) is on the left side, close to the throtle.

i feel sorry for the guy who faces this trim problem because it has no solution unless not for a non force feeback joystick.

they added this trim feature in il2, really cool, and they just killed it in fb, dont know why, any theory?
i certainly know in reality it had just one revolution, so the operating time is not the right answer

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 09:26 PM
I use no gadgets(cheats) whatsoever( most dont)( it wouldnt be interresting)

But I've met some pretty good pilots that really master difficult maneuvers without loosing so much energy and capable of flying to the limit.

One thing is clear to me.... ,even if I'm not succesful in downing a good opponent, likevise I know he will have a hard time targeting me ( on a good day) so succes really depends how much u have flown online with live opponents and how much u really have studied tactics for different situations, (like evaisiontactics). and u probably know that a sharpshooter in a bad turning plane can sacrifice his speed by deploying flaps and rudder to have a single pass on u in your better turning plane. Often 1 mk108 round ( bf109) is enough to take a plane out.


I dont know how much u flown online but many of the aces have flown online since day 1 and its alot different than shooting AI planes.

One tip on how to discover if your opponent is an ace is ofcourse the obvious:

1 u are immediatly outclassed and shot down.

2 when u are on his 6 and spraying wildly he only makes seemingly gentle turns and avoids your efforts easily maintaining and increasing his energy and if u are alone waiting for your ammo to end, or enabling his wingman to sneak in behind u and give u a headache.

3 he will brake hard and turn or roll his plane so u will have as little as possible to shoot at:

Example if u are behind and he makes a breaking turn he will immediatly after roll his plane to prevent u from hitting his vulnerable wings and instead give u only the aircrafts profile to shoot at.

4 he will try to make as few horisontal turns infront of u as possible, instead he will make diving or climbing turns to make your deflectionshots as difficult as possible.



The really cool thing with online flying is that even "√ľberaces" have bad days and makes mistakes.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 09:38 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Put down the pipe you all.
-
- Trim DOES effect elevator travel, that that is for
- sure.
-
- It's only at high speeds though, where elevator
- travel that can be pulled by the pilots arm strengh
- is being restricted by high speed airflow.
-
- At lower speeds, it will move the elevator too, but
- not more than the pilot could with just his arms.
-
- Quit trying to confuse people and learn how to fly
- the sim.
-
-
You are wrong. Trim has nothing to do with elevator travel. Trim is accomplished by trimtabs on the control surfaces. Go look at a real plane.

Jeez, get a clue.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 08:39 AM
RBJ wrote:

"The FAA pilot's handbook is for people learning to fly, not combat aces living on the edge. If you think trim is "used only to make straight and level flight easier on the pilot" then you need to wake up, and read some real WW2 ace accounts.

Quit trying to bring your cessna logic into the realm of combat flight sims. Out here, we are trying to fly the plane at the limit, not cross country to Grandma's house."

********************
OK then, give me some specific examples of aces cranking up the trim to allow their elevators to travel further. It only happens in video games. Stop trying to bring your video game logic into the realm of actual, real-life flight controls.

I cite the FAA Pilot's Handbook because it show a basic, straightforward explanation of how trim REALLY works--in real life, not video game trim. Here's a little experiment for you. Go sit in a plane. Pull back on the stick all the way. Now adjust the trim for maximum pitch-up effect. Pull back on the stick again. Tell me if you see the elevator travel any further.

And don't tell me that at high speed the pilot won't have the strength to pull the stick all the way back, and that he needs trim to help him do it. That's just silly.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 10:38 AM
Most likely the reason why a bf109 outturns your yak is that the 109 pilot goes a bit vertical with his plane while you pull the stick as hard as you can. Common mistake... I think.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 12:38 PM
This is actually an interesting thread!

Amazing!

If the forces are very high on the stick, necessitating a two handed grip, then it will not be possible to operate trim.

I do recall reading a post on this forum where a pilot (jet not prop) recounted using trim to level out from a dive.

The modelling is wrong in that trim is handled separately from elevator control by the physics part of the game engine.......

I guess some compromises have to be made.

And it is a level playing field.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 05:28 PM
I agree the trim thing is screwy. Follow me here folks. Do we all agree that a/c have a maximum travel for all control surfaces and flight sticks? So how can you add trim to gain an advantage? The best you could do would be to have a slight intial advantage in the direction you trimmed but once you meet the maximum travel that's it. Say you have a control surface that has a range of 90 degrees of travel. +45 to -45. If you dial in +15 degrees of trim you still can only go up to +45 not 15 + 45 for a total of 60. You would have a slight initial lead on some one who wasn't trimmed up at +15 but you both will max out at the same angle of deflection of the control surface. If you are flying the same type of a/c, of course. Does that make sense to any one?

Fireman

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 05:51 PM
Trim is A way of overcoming the restriction of stick movement (because of pilot strenght factor) due to high speed airflow over the control surface. Many aces had to use trim to get their elevator to move because the speed was too high. It simple mechanics, folks. Quit learning how to fly cessnas and learn how to fly a dogfighter. And real aces would trim differently for different situations, for some they moved their trim so much it was like riding a bike. Once you become an online ace instead of an online wannabe, you will enjoy using trim because it adds another level of control. It's just like race car drivers prefering manual shift instead of automatic (like city drivers).

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 06:29 PM
Hey RBJ, I gave you three homework assignments:

1. Come up with SPECIFIC examples of real-life situations where trim was used to achieve additional turn performance. You keep referring to video games. That's great and all, and no one is disputing that trim will help with ACM in this sim, but we are restricting this thread to trim as it is used in real life.

2. Go sit in a real plane and discover for yourself that trim does not affect elevator travel.

3. Read the FAA book where it pertains to trim. This information is not specific to any type of aircraft (a Cessna and a Hellcat and a Bf109 all share the same basic trim mechanisms).

It doesn't look like you have accomplished any of these.

I know you would like to substantiate your fighter-pilot fantasies by believing that you possess a clever edge that would have made you a great ace in real life, but trim manipulation (sorry to again break it to you) is a video-gamism and little more.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:08 PM
RBJ, you simply don't get it. You've obviously never been in a real plane, so don't knock anybody who uses real-life "Cessna" trim explanations to prove your wrong. A plane has "stops" that limit the control surface movement. If you don't believe me, go look at any airplane on the ramp. The trim is always a tab, and in some cases moving the actual horizontal stab a little bit, but that's on much larger aircraft. The point is.....you are getting your information from a simulator, we're getting it from real aircraft. Whether you like it or not, you are WRONG.



Message Edited on 10/01/0301:09PM by waterinthefuel

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 08:02 PM
I never said trim can make you go past the gimbat limits.

I am saying (and accurately too) that trim enables furthur elevator travel than pilot strength could muster due to compression of high speed airflow over the control surface.

Go read about WW2

"the buffeting declined and the trim tab
could be used to haul the airplane out of what seemed to be a death dive.
Recovery with trim tab resulted in 5 g pull-out. Many a low-time service
pilot would be so shaken by this experience that he would never dive the
P-38 again"

"The P-51's quirk that could catch the uprepared service pilot by surprise
was that as airspeed built up over 450 mph, the plane would start to get
very nose heavy. It needed to be trimmed tail heavy before the dive if
speeds over 400 mph were anticipated."


Here is what ACE Bud Anderson said:

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. ... One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.

****adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning****

Hello??? Who's the ace now????

Now please, all of you cessna know-it-alls need to stop thinking about flying to Grandma's house, and start thinking about flying in combat! And you better be using trim for turning!





"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 08:38 PM
Again, I will agree with you that it is an advantage to use trim to increase turn performance in IL-2. But HELLO???, this is not what we're talking about. You keep referring to video games in an attempt to prove your point. But we are talking about real life.

You also mentioned using trim (in real life) to help the plane get out of compression. This does indeed make sense. However, trim can and is used in this game to increase turn performance. THIS is what we have issue with. How many times in IL-2 does you plane's controls lock up due to compression?

In your second point, "adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning" he is referring to taking the plane out of trimmed state ideal for straight-and-level flight, since this state might impair optimum turning performance. Plus, any real pilot would know that deployed trim tabs will increase a plane's parasite drag (again, look it up in the FAA book; it doesn't just occur on Cessnas) and compromise performance.

In IL-2, "force you had to apply for hard turning" is not an issue, since all you have to do is pull your joystick back for a maximum turn. However, in the game, a heavily up-pitch-trimmed plane will turn a tighter circle than a neutrally-trimmed one. This is completely unrealistic.

Earlier you asserted that trim WILL allow a control surface to travel further. Well, at least you're taking one step in the right direction by abandoning this claim. Someday soon you'll see the light with regard to whole picture.


I can see that the trim turning-boost is something you really, really want to believe exists in reality. Since it is providing you with some sort of advantage in the game, well, I guess I can't blame you. But I think this whole "ace" fantasy that you find no shame in flaunting is clouding your reason.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 08:58 PM
Bronco_Nagurski wrote:
- Again, I will agree with you that it is an advantage
- to use trim to increase turn performance in IL-2.
- But HELLO???, this is not what we're talking about.
- You keep referring to video games in an attempt to
- prove your point. But we are talking about real
- life.

??? I just gave you real life examples, and trim will make you turn just as hard in IL2 as it does in FB.


- You also mentioned using trim (in real life) to help
- the plane get out of compression. This does indeed
- make sense. However, trim can and is used in this
- game to increase turn performance. THIS is what we
- have issue with. How many times in IL-2 does you
- plane's controls lock up due to compression?

Hello? It's not something that just happens all at once. It's gradual. At slow speeds like less than 300km/h trim won't help you turn better, but at high speeds it does. This is well modeleled in IL2/FB. So if you are trying to turn at 450km/h, then trim will naturally help you turn better, because it is overcoming some of the compression.


- In your second point, "adjusted the tab on the
- tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the
- nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for
- hard turning" he is referring to taking the plane
- out of trimmed state ideal for straight-and-level
- flight, since this state might impair optimum
- turning performance.

And this is what I have been saying. You use trim to turn better, so does Bud Anderson.


- Plus, any real pilot would know
- that deployed trim tabs will increase a plane's
- parasite drag (again, look it up in the FAA book; it
- doesn't just occur on Cessnas) and compromise
- performance.

Aparently Bud didn't think so! His life depended on it and he was wheeling the trim "like a radio dial"


- In IL-2, "force you had to apply for hard turning"
- is not an issue, since all you have to do is pull
- your joystick back for a maximum turn. However, in
- the game, a heavily up-pitch-trimmed plane will turn
- a tighter circle than a neutrally-trimmed one. This
- is completely unrealistic.

Once again, you don't know this sim very well. It models pilot strength and at high speeds you can't move the elevator nearly as far as on the ground (no trim at all). This is why trim helps turns. It's good that there is an ace like me to teach you such things.



- Earlier you asserted that trim WILL allow a control
- surface to travel further. Well, at least you're
- taking one step in the right direction by abandoning
- this claim. Someday soon you'll see the light with
- regard to whole picture.

YOU are the one who tried to corner my claim into the gimbal limits while the plane is on the ground. I, am correct as I always have been in saying that it will allow you to move the elevator further, as I was referring to circumstances under high speed.



- I can see that the trim turning-boost is something
- you really, really want to believe exists in
- reality. Since it is providing you with some sort of
- advantage in the game, well, I guess I can't blame
- you. But I think this whole "ace" fantasy that you
- find no shame in flaunting is clouding your reason.

Sorry, being an online ace is not a fantasy. I have been for over 6 years, and every combat sim worth it's salt has given the advantage to the trimmer. And now that I have given you proof that a real WW2 ace uses it too, it's time for you to admit you're wrong and enjoy the benefits of trim. You can even help me convince Oleg to make the trim move 1:1 with the controller, as it should be. Once you have experienced the joys of trim you will want it to flow freely.



"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 10:01 PM
Don't waste your time arguing with this moron.He is a joke that all of the real "aces" laugh at.He is harmless and does more talking than fighting.Trim is used for setting a pre determined hight and speed.And even if u did use it in combat it wouldn't give u full pitch with no stalling when doing a loop!Get it right u moron and quit posting on things u know nothing of u unabrowed jumpsuit monkey.

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 01:58 AM
Hey RBJ,

It seems that the reason you cling so feverently to the false idea that trim will boost turning performance (in real life; we all know it will in the game) is that it's the one thing that you can hang your hat on to substantiate your fantastic claims of "acehood". Other than that, your declarations of greatness rely on esoteric, even superstitious attributes such as just being an "ace", and having "the force". Your rebuttal to serious, nuts-and-bolts explanations of trim have been comments like "stop learning to fly Cessnas". This isn't exactly a compelling argument.

And in a sense, the trim "cheat" itself fit nicely into the world of fantasy you have created. It is almost a secret weapon, something only a real "ace" with "the force" could comprehend and exploit--the thing that sets you apart from the minions. In the real world we find something different. The aces of past wars acheived this status due to skill, nerves, good tactics, teamwork, and (by definition) shooting down their fifth plane--not by silly little tricks with trim or magical powers.

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 02:27 AM
See, I am winning this argument. You have nothing left to do but call me a "cheat" and think that I think trim is all it takes to be an ace.

Oh contraire. Trim is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to being an ace. But when you are an ace who lives on the edge every little bit counts.

I have even provided proof that Bud Anderson used trim to turn better, but you are still fixated on your "cessa logic". Just put your trim on a slider and never look back. Trust me, once you have experienced the pleasures of the different states of trim for all situations, you will look back on the day you thought it was just for level flight and remorse at the times you have wasted.

Here's to looking forward, and hoping that Oleg can change trim for the better. Trim needs to be speeded up (simple 1:1) like it was in IL2 so people don't have to go into a back alley and do the RBJ ShiftT just to be on a level playing field. Bud Anderson, he would move his trim wheel "like a radio knob" I hardly think it behaves like the lagging buttons, or in the trickling fashon that it does in FB. Time for a change, and together we can make a difference.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 02:38 AM
hay ray how do i ajust trim with standerd button layout??

"life moves preaty fast if you dont stop and look around once and a while you could miss it" {Ferris Bueller}

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 02:42 AM
RBJ,

I will say it again. I am NOT disputing that trim helps boost turning performance in this game. Jeez, guy, read the threads. I agree. You hear, I A-G-R-E-E. And it is not a cheat, nor are you. I called it a "cheat" because it is a facet of the game that steps beyond the bounds of reality.

If you play this game, I encourage you to use it. It helps. The purpose of this thread is to draw attention to the fact that it is a departure from realism. The effects of trimming a plane in this game far exceeds the subtle trimming Bud Anderson was doing when in combat. He was doing it to alleviate stick pressure, not to make a tighter turn, like what happens in FB.

And I will again suggest that if you see yourself as "an ace who lives on the edge" I can understand how your judgement could easily become confused on matters of realism.

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 03:09 AM
~S! RBJ, you are not listneing too closely to these gentlemen. They are telling you correctly about the purpose and function of trim.

What Bud Anderson and Company are saying to us is simply, he's triming away control pressure, with changes in airspeed or config. These aircraft are heavy with un-boosted controls, and control pressures built rapidly with speed. Elevator and Rudder pressures at high speed could build to over 100 lbs in those two axis'...... they couldn't fly the planes without re-trimming. But trim has nothing do with flight control effectiveness.

Now consider those few unfortunate pilots in very tight cockpits who couldn't trim away control pressure! Those could not turn well to the left over 300MPH.( not simulated here) and ( names have been withheld to prevent the "yes it can, no it can't" debate)

Now there were two well known aircraft in WW11 that had almost neutral elevator pressures throughout most of their flight envelopes.... and they are the FW190 A's and the P-39's.

Control pressures are not well represented in the sim.
( not sure they can be either). If control pressures were accurately duplicated these machines would be virtually unmanagable to the community at large.

Trim can not give more control effectiveness, it only can relieve pressure.





BPO5_Jinx
C.O. Replacement Air Group
Birds of Prey. 16th GvIAP
http://www.birdsofprey16thgviap.com
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/RS-15/N50GL.html

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 03:44 AM
Thanks Hopperfly22!

I have flown WarBirds for 6 years. I know fly Aces High and have for nearly a year. I missed the IL2 SIMM as I fly American Iron ONLY!! I downloaded the IL2 Demo and messed with it offline. I purchased FB when it first came out and have spent a good deal of time setting it up and flying both on and off line. It is Emmersive and I wait patiently for the P-51 upgrade.

Point, I am not a newbie to flight simms. I have noticed the same thing you have. Some servers I seem to be my self, average. Other servers seem to have oddities. I can't catch anything, out turn anything or hit anything. The turning is most noticeable. I am quite sure this is being used to a greater extent then is admitted to here. I find myself asking huh? How the hell did he just do that? I have seen the "Bat" turn numerous times.

My solution is to fly on REALISTIC servers only. External views in a fighter?? No cockpit? Baaahhh. That's crap.

Trim assisted turns? Yeah well ok! I can see it assisting in the start of a turn but it should be more of a neutral in the middle and even a hinderance exiting a hard turn. What it sounds like is it's just "Over-Modeled at this point in FB's development. Naturally, some pilots are exploiting this.

Trim was used when Booming and Zooming in the P-40. The P-40 was trimmed down prior to the dive and trimmed up in expectation of the climb out.

Knowing this exists in the GAME allows me to think that I may yet become an.......Average Pilot in FB.

S! All,
Duff4r "Duff"

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 01:40 PM
Here‚¬īs something I found at the Warbirds training pages that helped me understand trim:

Using Trim in WarBirds

Trim - what is it, and what does it do in a WWII airplane?

No, it's not the little fringe things hanging from the top of the windshield in my Jug. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I won't get into the fancy aerodynamic explanations (they are really long and complex) why trim works the way it does, but instead concentrate on the resulting effects and how to deal with them in Warbirds.

The Physics of Trim

As your plane flies, at a particular altitude, weight, and speed, your plane will fly straight and level with the stick perfectly centered. As you go faster, the nose tends to rise, the plane tends to yaw to the right (in the single engined planes), and the machine will tend to roll to the right as well. As you go slower, the nose tends to go down, the plane tends to yaw to the left, and roll slightly to the left.

Now since you need to be able to control a plane at a wide range of speeds, those thoughtful engineers included little deals called trim tabs that would let you adjust the plane to fly straight and level for many different sets of conditions. When we refer to a plane being in trim, we mean it is trimmed for straight and level flight with the joystick centered at that airspeed and condition. When a plane is out of trim, it's joystick center is far from the middle of it's travel, meaning you must use input to make the plane fly straight and level.

What would happen in a real WWII plane, is that you would feel the center of force of your joystick changing as you went faster or slower. Eventually you would have to trim the plane to get your center of force back close to the center or you would have your stick mashed against one side of it's travel and be unable to change direction any further in that direction. At the very least, it would limit your stick travel and hence the amount of control you could exert.

[ Top of Page ]

Trim in WarBirds

The trick is that we don't have real joysticks connected to flight surfaces, we have simulated joysticks that use springs to pretend there is a center of force and give you some resistance. When the plane starts to go out of trim in warbirds, the logical center of force moves but our simulated sticks stay right where they are! In WarBirds if you go faster your stick's logical center of force goes forward but your stick stays still so you start to climb. Generally, the WarBirds pilot will simply push the stick forward to keep the plane flying straight and level.

The movement of the logical center of the joystick creates two problems for WarBirds pilots. First, since the logical center is not the same as the physical force center it makes flying straight and level tricky, and it makes small gentle adjustments all but impossible. Your movements will tend to be jerky and really inaccurate.

This presents a problem in WarBirds simply because those movements are exactly what we need to do when lining up for a guns shot on an enemy plane. If your logical center of force matches your physical one on your stick, you are in trim (trimmed properly for that speed) and you will find gunnery much easier and smoother since you can "feel" that your physical center of force matches your logical one. In this case, if you let go of the stick your plane will fly straight and level.

The second problem comes into play when your logical center of force gets too far away from your joystick's physical center of force. For example, you have your plane trimmed out at 500 IAS and you get into a slow turning fight in your P51 Mustang. As you slow, your logical center of force moves backward, if we slow to 200 IAS the logical center of force will move quite far back, possible ‚ĺ of your joystick's travel. At this point, we need to have the joystick ‚ĺ back just to maintain level flight, meaning we only have ‚ľ of our travel left when we need to turn hard! In this case, you will simply run out of physical stick travel before you have full elevator authority. In fact, you would barely be able to turn at all.

The solution to these problems is to trim your plane for a speed close to that at which you will be fighting. You can use manual trim keys to move your logical center of force back closer to the physical middle in the heat of battle so you can get full control of your plane. In WWII airplanes, you would have to wind trim wheels or move levers to trim your plane. Since iMOL did such a great job modeling WWII aviation, in WarBirds you can manually adjust these tabs with the following keys:

I - nose down elevator trim
K - nose up elevator trim
J - left rudder trim
L - right rudder trim
M - left roll trim
, - right roll trim