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VW-IceFire
10-11-2004, 01:30 PM
With the release of Pacific fighters...we'll be seeing all sorts of new dogfight scenarios starting to appear.

With these new scenarios...we can count on a variety of situations pitting the USAAF against the JAAF.

The most typical matchup in 1943 is going to be the P-38, P-39, P-40, and maybe the P-47 against the Oscar (Ki-43) in a couple of versions and the Tony (Ki-61) in a couple of versions.

So...how many will be flying the K-61 and how many taking up the 43? Why do you figure you will like the one over the other?

Personally, I think the Ki-61 is going to be more popular. It'll be nearly as fast as Allied aircraft, better firepower, better durability, etc. Lets see if I'm right or not. Will the superior agility of the Oscar bring in some supporters?

Yellonet
10-11-2004, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
With the release of Pacific fighters...we'll be seeing all sorts of new dogfight scenarios starting to appear.

With these new scenarios...we can count on a variety of situations pitting the USAAF against the JAAF.

The most typical matchup in 1943 is going to be the P-38, P-39, P-40, and maybe the P-47 against the Oscar (Ki-43) in a couple of versions and the Tony (Ki-61) in a couple of versions.

So...how many will be flying the K-61 and how many taking up the 43? Why do you figure you will like the one over the other?

Personally, I think the Ki-61 is going to be more popular. It'll be nearly as fast as Allied aircraft, better firepower, better durability, etc. Lets see if I'm right or not. Will the superior agility of the Oscar bring in some supporters? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you're right.



Hehe... seriously, yeah, the Ki-61 is going to be popular as it is somewhat like the 109(is it?). The oscar with only two small caliber MG's might not be that popular... You'll have to go for engine/pilot shots every time. Gonna be tought downing a bomber with that one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DIRTY-MAC
10-11-2004, 01:52 PM
I think I will go with the Ki-43 and the early P-40. I like the early fighters more as I find them more challenging than late ones,got more personality,
and they give you twice the satisfaction when downing a late war uberplane

A nice little pic
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/cl-pln3/images4/TH030.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
10-11-2004, 01:55 PM
well, there is a "small" proplem for 1943 servers with the Oscar : only the Ki-43-I will be flyable. all three armament versions:
-2 light MGs

-1 light and one heavy MG (wich seems to bee was the main version) http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/nakajima_ki43arm.htm

-2 heavy MG

this early Osacr was **** slow , 480-490Km/h http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

the "correct" 43 Oscar MarkII is only AI , it has unfortunalty a total different cockpit layout than the MarkI. the MArkII would be a litte bit faster ~530 km/h

so, the only thing we can do is hope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

horseback
10-11-2004, 02:14 PM
Oscar will be popular with people who like to fly biplanes or the spectacularly tight turners in FB/AEP. It will be a fun ride for those who can turn and burn their way into PKs, although with the aircraft's weaknesses already known, this will be orders of magnitude harder for the simmer than the IJAAF pilots that actually operated it in the first 18 months of the Pacific war.

Tony will be like a cross between the 109 and the MC 202, with something like the 202's maneuverability and the 109-like firepower.

cheers

horseback

VW-IceFire
10-11-2004, 02:22 PM
Ki-43-II was listed as a possible/probably flyable in the future. Along with the George.

ploughman
10-11-2004, 02:23 PM
When ever I read Tony, I think of some guy in a lounge suit with a Jersey accent and in whome the cops take a lively interest.

warweapon2
10-11-2004, 02:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yellonet:
I think you're right.



Hehe... seriously, yeah, the Ki-61 is going to be popular as it is somewhat like the 109(is it?). The oscar with only two small caliber MG's might not be that popular... You'll have to go for engine/pilot shots every time. Gonna be tought downing a bomber with that one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, my philosphy with that is: Two guns are better than one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Snootles
10-11-2004, 02:40 PM
I'm probably going to start with the Hayabusa at first, because I have a special interest in the Nakajima fighters, because the Japanese will be better equipped in PF for the earlier battles (quite a few late war omissions), and because I've always been a "TnB" sorta dogfighter.

Da_Godfatha
10-11-2004, 02:42 PM
Now Ice, you know only a few servers will have accurate plane-sets. What we will find is the Oscar and Tony on servers with La-7's, Yak-9's, and Whine-O-Nine K's, and Ta-152's. Only a few Brave(Stupid?) souls like me will try to fly them. It is like that now, the good servers full, and all that is left is nuttin but late-war cr@p-plane servers.

That kinda takes the fun out of the game...IMHO

Giganoni
10-11-2004, 03:04 PM
I find the Ki-43 will be my preference. 2 mgs is plenty for me. You can take down P-47s with two mgs, practice using the zeros mgs only or taking a G.50 for a spin. You can blow up spits quite nicely in a G.50. I would have perferred the Ki-43-II flyable, especially the KAI version. That extra speed and protection would be helpful. Still I wont balk at flying a Ki-61 if the campaign changes my sentai to it. Ki-61 Ko, and Otsu's armament will be familiar with me since I loved piloting the brewster.

From what I've read of the Ki-43 it should be pretty fun to fly. I wonder if it shared the same fate as the Zero though, I've seen nothing mentioned about the Ki-43 being really hard to control at high speeds (where as the Zero is modeled to show this reduction in manuverability). I've never played CFS2 so I don't know what their models were like.

Kwiatos
10-11-2004, 03:34 PM
Im wonder how possible in PF will be to shoot down P-40 from Oscar km's while in AEP P-40 could get at least 10 hits from 20mm cannon and still fly and fight ??

VW-IceFire
10-11-2004, 03:52 PM
Actually...at present, you can down P-40's by lighting their engine on fire with a good burst (a few seconds) from the Zero's 7.7mm machine guns. So its possible...the wings and tail section are very tough however...

There needs to be more of the "fun but historic" servers. UK-Dedicated is an example of this...with good settings for the average player but with historic scenarios. Its so busy I can hardly ever log in. There's a new Ardennes 1944-45 server that features the same thing...specific plane sets.

There needs to be more of these. If I had resources for a server I would try to set something up like that.

JG53Frankyboy
10-11-2004, 03:58 PM
well, the JG53 is planing to host a all day dedicated server after PF to "re"fight known WW2 airbattles.

and sure, you will find there ONLY maps with historical planesets as far as posible.

ElAurens
10-11-2004, 04:36 PM
While the aerobatic qualities of the KI43 are attractive I will mostly be in the Hien. If proplerly modeled it will have enough speed to be competitive until 1944 and better airframe durability than the Zero-Sen or Hayabusa. But, this all depends on the modeling.

I am really hoping to someday get the KI61-II. The TAIC reports on this aircraft are frankly shocking...

Lateralus_14
10-11-2004, 04:56 PM
I'll be flying the Ki-43, most definitely. I love flying the underdog planes.

I know little about Japanese aircraft though, so I have a question: Did the Ki-43 operate from carriers? If a server runs an early-war sea map with only carriers, will the Axis side have any other fighter than the Zero? The Zero is fun, but if its the only one available it will get boring pretty quickly.

Giganoni
10-11-2004, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lateralus_14:
I'll be flying the Ki-43, most definitely. I love flying the underdog planes.

I know little about Japanese aircraft though, so I have a question: Did the Ki-43 operate from carriers? If a server runs an early-war sea map with only carriers, will the Axis side have any other fighter than the Zero? The Zero is fun, but if its the only one available it will get boring pretty quickly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Ki-43 is an army plane, it operated from shore bases. They may have once transported army aircraft on the smaller Taiyo class escort carriers, but most of my records have them flying to new destinations (Ki-43 had good range). I hope the fowler flap is modelled correctly.

VW-IceFire
10-11-2004, 06:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lateralus_14:
I'll be flying the Ki-43, most definitely. I love flying the underdog planes.

I know little about Japanese aircraft though, so I have a question: Did the Ki-43 operate from carriers? If a server runs an early-war sea map with only carriers, will the Axis side have any other fighter than the Zero? The Zero is fun, but if its the only one available it will get boring pretty quickly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It'll be just as boring for the US side. Until 1943 its just the Wildcat VS the Zero when it comes to carrier based aircraft. Those two were a staple for carrier based planes.

Not until late 1944 or 1945 do you really see any diversity in carrier fighters. And then only for the US side (the Hellcat or Corsair).

The Ki-43 was a Army fighter. The Navy and Army had separate command structure, separate aircraft, they even developed their own bombs and cannons separately. The two were not fans of each other actually...it makes the rivalry between the USN and the USAAF look small in comparison.

So if you're on a carrier in 1942...its pretty much going to be the Zero for fighter. If your at an army base...its the Oscar. Until 1943 when the Tony arrives.

Charos
10-11-2004, 06:25 PM
Im a BF109 Fan so the KI61 has great appeal to me BUT I am keen to give the KI43 A good run.

I also like the Underdog and being able to send a BIG fat Jug into Davey Jones Locker with two 7.7mm Machine Guns is a challange too great to ignore.

Apparently the KI43 1a in New Zealand was found in Japan in 1945 being repaired for active duty - so this machine saw service all the way to the end.

The challange of staying alive and getting a Kill in KI43 sounds like fun.

The late war KI43 Pilot must have felt like a Mozzie surrounded by atomic fly swatters.

goshikisen
10-11-2004, 07:23 PM
I mentioned this in a previous thread but thought it especially appropriate here.

How would you like your own Hayabusa?

http://www.btillman.com/oscars.htm

I think there's 3 more available if you have the cash handy.

Fliger747
10-12-2004, 12:00 AM
4 machine guns does not spell superior aramament, par with only some allied aircraft. The major achilies heel of the hein was the engine, a liscened 'copy' of the DB 601. Unable to match the metalurgy and workmanship of the original it was tempermental and unreliable (not likely to be modeled in the GAME).

A good alternative to the Zeke mid war. probably fun to fly in the 'game'.

Giganoni
10-12-2004, 01:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fliger747:
4 machine guns does not spell superior aramament, par with only some allied aircraft. The major achilies heel of the hein was the engine, a liscened 'copy' of the DB 601. Unable to match the metalurgy and workmanship of the original it was tempermental and unreliable (not likely to be modeled in the GAME).

A good alternative to the Zeke mid war. probably fun to fly in the 'game'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your forgeting the Ki-61-I-Hei. Supposedly we are getting that and this version (if it ever was a true variant or simply a field mod) was equipped with imported German MG 151 20mm cannons in the wing as well as 2 12.7 mm guns (in the body). The Ki-61-I tei had home made Ho-5 20mm cannons, put in the fuselage instead of the wings. So actually the Ki-61 at least the Hei version wont have some bad firepower.

Snow_Wolf_
10-12-2004, 03:50 AM
I hope we also get the Ki-61 Type II since it got more horsepower

Data

Origin:
Kawasaki Kokuki Kogyo

Type:
Single-seat fighter

Span: 39' 5" (12 metres)Length: (Ki-61-1) 29' 4" (8.94 metres) (Ki-61-II) 30' 1" (9.16 metres)

Engines:
(K-61-I) One 1,175 hp Kawasaki Ha-40 inverted-vee 12- cylinder ( liquid-cooled)
(Ki-61-II) One 1,450 hp Kawasaki Ha-140 inverted-vee 12-cylinder (liquid-cooled)

Armament
(Ki-61-Ia) 2 x 20mm MG151/20 in wings, 2 x 12.7 mm mchine guns above engines
(Ki-61-Id) As with K-61-Ia but with 30mm cannon in wings
(Ki-61-II) Four x 20 mm Ho-5 cannon in wings

Performance:
Maximum speed (Ki-61-I) 348 mph (560 km/hour) (Ki-61-II) 379 mph (610 km/hour)
Initial climb (All Ki-61 versions) 2,200 feet (675 metres) per minute
Service ceiling (Ki-61-I) 32,800 feet (10,000 metres) (Ki-61-II) 36,100 feet (11,000 metres)

History:
First flight (Ki-60) March 1941 (Ki-61) December 1941 (Ki-61-II) August 1943
Service delivery (Ki-61-I) August 1941

JG53Frankyboy
10-12-2004, 04:41 AM
well , there is lot of different info about Ki61 armamant around:
i personaly hang with thiese http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

.Ki-61-Ia , 2x12,7mm in fuselage, 2x7,7mm in wings
.Ki-61-Ib , 4x12mm

both of the above variants could be armed with MG151/20 in their wings - was done at factory and fieldmodification

.Ki-61-I-KAIc , 2x20mm (Ho5) in fuselage, 2x12,7mm in wings
.Ki-61-I-KAId , 2x12,7mm in fuselage , 2x30mm in wings

we will see soon wih sources maddox had http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and combat entry of the Hien was around April 43 over NewGuinea

Giganoni
10-12-2004, 04:52 AM
We seem to have some conflicting data Snow Wolf. I have never heard of the Ki-61 being so slow, infact none of my sources give such numbers. Including Ikuhiko Hata and Yasuho Izawa's book which give the Ki-61 Ia of having achieved a speed of 591kph. Also the first delivery of Ki-61 they put in August 42. I think you did a typo really, because obviously if they tested it in December 41, it wasn't delivered before it was tested.

I am led to believe that the Ki-61I d or in Japanese, Tei, was not the ones with 30mm cannon. This picture and the corresponding website led me to believe that, but I could be wrong.Ki-61-tei (http://www.marksindex.com/japaneseaviation/tony/ki_61_tei_front.gif)

If you can't read Japanese, in the upper left hand corner of the picture it reads Ki-61-I-Tei. The T looking Kanji is tei.

Checking the armament is easy, you can see the 12.7mm and 20mm cannon. The first two characters before the 20mm is Ho and Go(which means five). So you know those are Ho-5 20mm cannon. This does not mean that Ki-61 tei were not experimentally fitted with 30mm cannon. However, it seems according to this picture that it was not the main armament.

Pictures could be wrong though, I find Ki-61 designations very confusing. The article on that website is good.

Gunner_361st
10-12-2004, 06:45 AM
I look forward to flying anything and everything the 1C:Maddox team has to offer us, including the KI-43 Oscar and KI-61 Tony Imperial Japanese Army Fighters.

I don't have exact statistics on hand to back these up, but it is my general impression that the Oscar will be slightly slower than the Zero but even more manueverable; a true extreme in terms of monowing fighters. However, the typical armament load of either 2x 7.7mm, 1x 7.7mm and one 13mm, or 2x 13mm will make boom and zoom style fighting difficult. Anyone who knows anything about air combat can tell you as soon as you start riding someone's six, you become vulnerable to any of his buddies in the area. Even with 2x 13mm cowl-mounted HMG's, it will still be somewhat difficult to scream down with an E advantage and nail a tough Allied fighter in the right spot (engine/cockpit/fuel tanks) to incapicitate the plane, unless you're one hell of a good shot OR... park on his six for a few seconds.

As for the Tony... It would seem that it was faster than the earlier Oscar and Zero, a bit better armed (but still, 4x HMG is not great, take the Mustang B/C out for a spin and you'll see) while still manueverable enough to dogfight successfully against American and British fighters. I'm keenly interested in what its dive, climb, and high speed performance will be like in PF... Of course, completely unknowing of what real life performance was like.

Should be good fun. Looking forward to it and everything else in PF.

Gunner of the 361st vFG

hernanyork
10-12-2004, 07:15 AM
The absolute japan fighter is the A6m2 , whit this beauty in good hands , no alied plain can escape........sorry for the ki43 and ki61 but the really fun is for the zero...ahh, i forget something , almost all the alied pilots said that, never dog fight against a zero or you will down, just fire and run like a rat, ha ha ha.........you will teste the dust
the game is survive....by by

JG53Frankyboy
10-12-2004, 07:17 AM
well , the proplem will be more that close to every allied plane can escape from a Zero http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif at least in a dive http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

k5054
10-12-2004, 10:45 AM
Top P-47 ace Neel Kearby was in fact shot down and killed by an Oscar which bounced his Jug from above. It'll be interesting to see whather this can be duplicated in PF.

mortoma
10-12-2004, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by k5054:
Top P-47 ace Neel Kearby was in fact shot down and killed by an Oscar which bounced his Jug from above. It'll be interesting to see whather this can be duplicated in PF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Of course it can be duplicated, it's call a PK.

DuxCorvan
10-12-2004, 11:36 AM
Anyway, I think all the fun will be for USAAF and USN guys, specially for those who install over AEP:

USAAF
P-39D (2 types), N (2 types) & Q
P-40B, C, E & M
P-47D (3 types)
P-51B, C & D (2 types)
P-38J & L
P-63C (hardly an USAAF type, but it was)
A-20
B-25

USN
F2A-1 (B.239)& F2A-2 (B.339)(In the works)
F4F-3, F4F-4, FM-2
F4U-1 (3 types)
F6F-3, F6F-5
SBD-3, SBD-5
PBY (By Gibbage, in the works)

The FAA and RAF guys are also fortunate:

Hurricane I & II (2 types)
Spitfire V (4 types), VIII (2 types), IX (5 types) (Spitfire XIV in the works)
Seafire III (2 types)
Beaufighter Mk 21
Boston (A-20)
Mitchell (B-25)
Hawk81A, Tomahawk II (2 types)
Airacobra (P-400)
Buffalo I (equal to F2A)
Martlet (Wildcat)
Gladiator II (OK, not the same, but easily disguisable from J8A)
Corsair I, II & V
Tempest V (in the works)
Mosquito (in the works-cockpit finished!)
Mustang II, III & IV (P-51B, C & D)

Meanwhile the Japanese list of flyables looks mean, specially for the Navy. A long campaign can be a pain:

IJN
A6M-2 (2 types), A6M-3, A6M-5 (4 types) & A6M-7 (2 types), Rufe (Nakajima-built Zero hydro version)
D3A-1
N1K (In the works ???)
G4M (In the works)
Raiden (In the works ???)

JAAF
Ki-43-I (3 types), Ki-43-II (In the works ??)
Ki-61 (3 types)
Ki-84-I (3 types)


(List corrected)

Giganoni
10-12-2004, 12:34 PM
The G4M is a navy bomber. Raiden is also a IJN bird. The IJAAF have no medium (or light) bomber in this game atm. So that means no bomber escorting missions. Unless they have us escorting Bettys which co-op between the navy and army was rare. Anyway, IJAAF campaign shouldn't be too difficult. By the time it starts getting impossible for the Ki-43 the comp we'll probably switch ya to Ki-61s then Ki-84s.

IJNAF only get the Zero when it comes to a fighter. Lots of versions, but still same plane.

Fliger747
10-12-2004, 09:38 PM
The fastest speed mentioned in my reference for the Ki61 is 360 mph, which is in general league with the F6F. Three hundered and eighty eight were converted to canon armamament in the field or on the production line. The aramament combos are a bit confusing but it looks to be variously 2 heavy/2 light MG; 4 heavy mg; 2 canon, 2 heavy mg.

As with everything, more guns, more ammo mean bad performance and bad handeling. Many pilots prefered the 4 gun F4F-3 over the heavier 6 gun F4F-4.

You guys going to draw lots for one?

VW-IceFire
10-12-2004, 09:58 PM
Dux...keep in mind that the major types of fighters are definately represented for the Japanese side already. There are more that I'd like to see and they are working on it...but the list isn't as small as it seems.

The primary JAAF fighter throughout the war was the Ki-43. They were everywhere...the Ki-43-II will help us for late war stuff...but even in 1945 it was found that the earlier versions were still in service with units.

The Ki-61 is the real performer for the army guys. That was the fighter that surprised the allies after fighting the Oscar for so long. The Tony was tougher, better armed, faster, and could dive with most allied aircraft. Not to mention that it should probably have a superb turn in comparison to Allied equivalents so it should be a good aircaft to fly. Again, this was a fighter that equipped a good bulk of their forces.

The Ki-84 is a known quantity...but only came on the scene at the end of the war in any numbers.

That really only leaves out the Ki-44 and the Ki-100 as I see as being "major" types. Oh and the Ki-45...that may be a good one to have. The 44 we heard was in production but I haven't seen what happened. The Ki-100 I don't know...its a bit more obscure...although I think there were over 600 produced so still a important number.

For the Navy...they were all Zero...all through the war. Only at the end did the George show up in 2 types. The version in game is supposed to be flyable later...that version served in 1944 on. But the Zero was still around in greater numbers and its represented quite well.

Torpedo bombers on all sides are lacking at the moment. Hopefully that will change. The JAAF does need a bomber or two...AI would be fine. Hopefully we'll see that show up. Betty's...although spoiling a bit of immersion for the real picky types...is in essentially the same configuration as most army bombers were so its not a huge problem for me.

So the Japanese side doesn't look too shabby. A few more flyables and it'll be great...and they are on the way as were told.

Snow_Wolf_
10-12-2004, 10:32 PM
I am not sure about the data i am guessing that the 560km/hr could be error when it suppose to be 590km/hr

funny thing is if out the Ki-44 guessing the Ki-61 would have to do the lion share of a kill when it comes to taking out the B-29's

http://www.marksindex.com/japaneseaviation/tony/ki_61_scheme_1.gif

http://www.marksindex.com/japaneseaviation/tony/ki_61_scheme_2.gif

Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien
Ki-61-I
The Kasasaki Ki-61 Hien was unique among Japanese fighter aircraft of the Pacific War -- it had a liquid-cooled engine, a long tapered nose, and high aspect-ratio wings. It had a very European look to it --- in fact, when it first appeared in combat it was initially assumed to be a license-built version of either the Messerschmitt Bf 109 or perhaps some unspecified Italian aircraft. In fact, its suspected Italian ancestry may have played a role in the choosing of its Allied code name --- TONY.

Most Japanese fighter aircraft had been powered by air-cooled radial engines. However, the German Daimler-Benz DB 601A liquid-cooled, inverted-vee engine (which powered the Bf 109E) had attracted considerable interest in Japan, and a license had been acquired in April 1940 by the Kawasaki Kokuki Kogyo K.K. (Kawasaki Aircraft Engineering Co Ltd) to build the German engine in Japan under the designation Ha-40. A Japanese technical team brought back a set of blueprints of the DB 601A and a few examples to serve as production patterns. The first prototype Ha-40 engine was ready in July of 1941, and the first examples began to roll off Kawasaki's Akashi engine production line in the fall of 1941.

While negotiating with Daimler Benz in Germany, Kawasaki attempted to interest the Japanese Army in various fighter aircraft powered by this engine. The Japanese Army had of course been following the combat reports from Europe with great interest, particularly the successes of fighter planes powered by liquid-cooled engines (e. g. Bf 109E, Spitfire, Hurricane). In February of 1940, the Koku Hombu instructed the airframe division of the Kawasaki Kokuki Kogyu K. K. located at Kamamingahara near Nagoya to produce two separate designs based on the DB-601A/Ha-40 engine --- the Ki-60 heavy interceptor and the Ki-61 light, all-purpose fighter.

Initial priority was given to the Ki-60 heavy interceptor. Contrary to previous Japanese philosophy, speed, rate of climb, and offensive punch were to be stressed at the expense of range and maneuverability. The Ki-60 was designed by Takeo Doi and Shin Owada and was a clean, low-winged fighter powered by a 1100 hp Daimler-Benz DB 601A liquid-cooled 12-cylinder inverted-V engine that had been purchased directly from Germany. Armament consisted of 2 fuselage-mounted 12.7-mm machine guns and two wing-mounted 20-mm Mauser MG 151 cannon imported from Germany. The first Ki-60 prototype flew in March of 1941. However, test pilots were generally displeased with its performance --- they found the aircraft to have poor maneuverability, an excessively-high wing loading, a high landing speed, and a top speed of only 342 mph (373 mph was promised). In order to correct some of these deficiencies, the second prototype was provided with a wing of increased area and was fitted with a revised cowling having better streamlining. Maximum speed was boosted to 348 mph and maneuverability was improved somewhat. The third prototype was refined still further, and the Mauser cannon were replaced by a pair of 12.7-mm machine guns in an attempt to save some weight. However, even with these changes, the maximum speed was still only a rather disappointing 354 mph, and the Ki-60 project was shelved in favor of Kawasaki's other project, the lighter and faster Ki-61.

The Ki-61 was a lighter, all-purpose adaptation of the Ki-60. It was also designed by Takeo Doi and Shin Owada and was fitted with a high aspect-ratio, large area wing which was designed to provide good maneuverability and long endurance. It was two feet longer than the Ki-60, and the wings were five feet greater in span. The engine was also the Kawasaki Ha-40, the license-built version of the DB-601A. Armament consisted of two 12.7 mm machine guns in the fuselage and either a pair of 7.7 mm or 12.7 mm machine guns were fitted to the wings. A large coolant radiator was mounted on the fuselage belly at the position of the wing trailing edge.

Flight tests of the Ki-61 prototype began in December of 1941. Flight tests met the most sanguine hopes of the designers --- a maximum speed of 367 mph at 19,685 feet was reached. The wing loading was high in comparison with other Japanese fighters, but the diving speed was good and the armor protection, self-sealing tanks, and heavy armament were all commented upon favorably. During competitive tests against an imported Bf 109E and a captured Curtiss P-40E, the Ki-61 was judged to have the best overall performance.

In late 1942, the design was accepted for production under the designation Army Type 3 Fighter Model 1. It was assigned the popular name Hien (Swallow). The thirteenth Ki-61 was the first machine which was built with production tooling and was completed in August of 1942. It differed from the prototypes in deleting a small window on each side of the fuselage ahead of the windshield.

There were two initial production variants, which differed from each other in the armament fitted: the Ki-61-Ia (Model 1A) armed with two fuselage- mounted 12.7-mm machine guns and two wing-mounted 7.7-mm machine guns and the Ki- 61-Ib (Model 1B) in which the wing guns were replaced by 12.7-mm units. The powerplant was the 1100 hp Kawasaki Ha-40 twelve- cylinder liquid cooled inverted-vee engine.

Initial deliveries were made in February 1943 to the 23rd Dokuritsu Dai Shijugo Chutai at Ota, which acted as a conversion and training unit. The Hien initially entered combat in April 1943 when the 68th and 78th Sentais were transferred to the New Guinea theatre of operation. The aircraft subsequently appeared in every theatre in which the Japanese Army was involved. The Ki-61 immediately proved itself to be better suited for combat against its heavier-armed Allied opponents than was the Ki-43 Hayabusa. Although it was not as maneuverable as the earlier Ki-43, the Ki-61 had heavier armament, good armor protection for the pilot, and self-sealing fuel tanks. The Hien could be pushed over into a 45 degree dive very rapidly, and its diving performance was far superior to that of any other Japanese fighter. Its high diving speed worked to advantage against Allied fighters which relied on hit and run attacks from higher altitudes. In defensive operations, the Hien was especially difficult to counter, since the aircraft seldom offered a good target. When engaged in combat at a disadvantage, it could often escape by going into a half-roll followed by a dive, or else it would turn in and under the opposing plane, often getting in a deflection shot. The Hien completely outclassed the Curtiss P-40 in most combat encounters, unless the Allied fighter was being flown by the most experienced of pilots. The Hien was well-liked by its pilots and respected and feared by its opponents. However, the Ha-40 engine proved to be a maintenance headache, especially in the prevailing hot and damp weather of the New Guinea theatre. Main-bearing failures and oil-system faults were the primary problems. In addition, the power ratings of individual Ha-40 engines would vary greatly from one example to another, owing to poor quality control during manufacture.

Combat experience showed that the Hien was still somewhat underarmed, especially when it was going up against well-protected Allied bombers. Pending the availability of indigenous cannon, plans were made to replace the wing-mounted machine guns of the Ki-61-Ia and Ib aircraft with Mauser MG 151 20 mm cannon imported from Germany. Since space in the wing was limited, the cannon had to be mounted on their sides, with a small underwing fairing covering the breech. Since the recoil forces from the cannon were larger than those from the machine guns, some local wing strengthening was required. However, as the war began to turn against Japan, the numbers of these German-supplied cannon became limited, and only 388 Ki-61-Ia and -1b Hiens actually received these guns.

One Ki-61 was modified to test a surface evaporation cooling system proposed for the Ki-64 experimental high-speed fighter. This had its large ventral radiator replaced by a smaller retractable unit located further forward. This unit was meant only for use on the ground, with inflight cooling being provided by steam evaporation through wing condensers.

Operations from New Guinea, New Ireland, and New Britain had shown that the Hien was difficult to maintain in the field. In an attempt to improve the maintainability of the basic design, the Ki-61-I-KAIc version was introduced onto the production line. In order to simplify maintenance in the field, the fuselage was slightly longer and was provided with a detachable rear section. The wings were strengthened, which allowed an increase in the diving speed. Provisions were made for the mounting of stores pylons underneath the wings outboard of the wheel wells. The retractable tailwheel was replaced by a fixed unit. Aware that the supply of German MG 151 cannon could be curtailed at any time, the Japanese had begun developing a comparable weapon of indigenous design, the Ho-5. The Ki-61-I-KAIc (Model Ic) used a pair of domestically-produced Type Ho-5 20 mm cannon mounted in the fuselage and a pair of 12.7-mm machine guns mounted in the wings. The first Ki-61-I-KAIc was manufactured in January 1944. Since the Ho-5 cannon were not immediately available in adequate quantity, the Ki-61-I-KAIc version was manufactured in parallel with the earlier Ki-61-Ib. The Ki-61-I-KAIc finally supplanted the earlier model on the production line in August of that year. A total of 1274 Model Ics were built, which accounted for over half the Hiens built.

The Ki-61-I-KAId was a specialized bomber interceptor version armed with a pair of 30-mm cannon in the wings and two 12.7-mm machine guns in the fuselage. Only a few of these variants were built.

The Hien appeared in the Philippines late in 1944, serving with the 17th, 18th, and 19th Sentais. It appeared over Formosa and Okinawa with the 19th, 37th 59th, and 105th Sentais, and the 23rd Doikuritsu Dai Shijugo Chutai. It also served with the 18th, 23rd, 28th, 55th, 56th, 59th, and 244th Sentais in the final defense of the Japanese home islands. Over Japan, it fought against B-29s and against US Navy carrier-based aircraft. Against the high-flying B-29s, the Hien lacked the necessary high-altitude performance. In attacks on B-29 bombers, the Hien would often be used in ramming attacks, the pilot jumping clear immediately before impact. When the Iwo Jima-based P-51 Mustang finally started to appear over Japan, the Hien was definitely outclassed.

A total of 2654 production Ki-61-I Hiens were built (1380 Ia and Ib, 1274 KAIc and KAId). By the spring of 1944, production of the Hien had fallen to a low level because of shortages of Ha-40 engines, with no solution having been found for the bearing failure problems. Production was finally terminated in January of 1945.

Specification of Kawasaki Ki-61-1b Army Type 3 Fighter Model 1b:

One Army Type 2 twelve-cylinder liquid cooled engine (Kawasaki Ha-40) rated at 1175 hp for takeoff and 1080 hp at 11,480 feet. Performance: Maximum speed 368 mph at 15,945 feet. Cruising speed 249 mph at 13,125 feet. An altitude of 16,400 feet could be reached in 5 minutes 31 seconds. Service ceiling 37,730 feet. Normal range 373 miles, maximum range 684 miles.

Dimensions: Wingspan 39 feet 4 7/16 inches, length 28 feet 8 1/2 inches, height 12 feet 1 11/16 inches, wing area 215.3 square feet.

Weights: 4872 pounds empty, 6504 pounds loaded, 7165 pounds maximum. Armament: Two fuselage-mounted 12.7 mm Type 1 (Ho-103) machine guns and two wing-mounted 7.7 mm Type 89 machine guns (Ki-61-Ia). Two fuselage-mounted 12.7 mm Type 1 (Ho-103) machine guns and two wing-mounted 12.7 mm Type 1 (Ho-103) machine guns (Ki-61-Ib). Some Ki-61-Ia and -Ib aircraft had the wing guns replaced by 20-mm Mauser MG-151/20 cannon.

Specification of Kawasaki Ki-61-I-KAIc Army Type 3 Fighter Model 1c:

One Army Type 2 twelve-cylinder liquid cooled engine (Kawasaki Ha-40) rated at 1180 hp for takeoff and 1100 hp at 11,480 feet. Performance: Maximum speed 366 mph at 13,980 feet. An altitude of 16,400 feet could be reached in 7 minutes. Service ceiling 32,810 feet. Maximum range 1120 miles.

Dimensions: Wingspan 39 feet 4 7/16 inches, length 29 feet 4 inches, height 12 feet 1 11/16 inches, wing area 215.3 square feet. Weights: 5798 pounds empty, 7650 pounds loaded.

Armament: Two fuselage-mounted 20 mm Ho-5 cannon and two wing-mounted 12.7 mm Type 1 (Ho-103) machine guns and two wing-mounted 12.7 mm Type 1 (Ho-103) machine guns.
Ki-61-II
Shortly after beginning production of the Ha-40 engine, the Kawasaki corporation began work on a more powerful version of this engine, designated Ha-140. This engine was to emphasize high-altitude performance, and work began on a Hien derivative to accommodate this new engine. This derivative was given the temporary designation Ki-61-II-KAI. It retained the original wing of the Hien, married to a revised fuselage with a longer nose and a strengthened airframe. The cockpit canopy was revised for improved vision. A redesigned vertical fin with a greater area was fitted.

Even though the Ha-140 engine still had a lot of mechanical problems (crankshaft failures being quite common), the design was accepted for production as the Ki-61-II Army Type 3 Fighter Model 2.

Two versions of the Model 2 were built--the Ki-61-IIa Model 2A with two 12.7 mm machine guns in the wings and two 20-mm Ho-5 cannon in the fuselage, and the Ki-61-IIb Model 2B with four 20 mm Ho-5 cannon.

The Model 2 Hien never entirely supplanted the earlier Model 1 in operational units, since its Ha-140 engine continued to suffer from lots of problems even after full production had begun. This engine was subject to frequent failures in its main bearings, in its superchargers, and in its oil and coolant systems. In addition, the lack of skilled workers in the engine manufacturing plant resulted in rather poor quality control, and only rarely did the Ha-140 engine give its full rated power. However, when the Ha-140 engine was working well, it could deliver 1500 hp for takeoff and 1250 hp at 18,700 feet, and the Model 2 Hien proved to be an effective interceptor and was the only Army fighter capable of maintaining combat formation at the operating altitude of the B-29. Of the Ki-61-IIa and IIb fighters built, about one-third were destroyed in air raids, and the remainder were assigned to duty as interceptors.

Chronic engine problems and shortages resulted in lots of Model 2 airframes sitting around in factory yards waiting for powerplants. This problem was exacerbated even further on January 19, 1945 when a B-29 raid destroyed Kawasaki's Akashi engine plant. The chronic shortage of engines caused production of the Model 2 Hien to be suspended. By the time that production was suspended, 374 Model 2s had been built, but 30 of these were destroyed on the ground prior to delivery and 275 were built without engines.

What to do with these airframes sitting around waiting for engines? That is another story, which will be considered in the Ki-100 installment of this series.

Specification of the Kawasaki Ki-61-IIa Army Type 3 Fighter Model 2A:

One Kawasaki Ha-140 twelve-cylinder liquid-cooled engine rated at 1500 hp for takeoff and 1250 hp at 18,700 feet.

Performance: Maximum speed 379 mph at 19,685 feet, an altitude of 16,400 feet could be attained in 6 minutes. Service ceiling 36,090 feet. Normal range 684 miles, maximum range 995 miles.

Dimensions: Wingspan 38 feet 4 7/16 inches, length 30 feet 0 5/8 inches, height 12 feet 1 11/16 inches, wing area 215.3 square feet. Weights: 6261 pounds empty, 8333 pounds loaded, 8433 pounds maximum Armament: two fuselage-mounted 20-mm Ho-5 cannon and two wing-mounted 12.7 mm Type 1 (Ho-103) machine guns. Two 551 pounds could be carried on underwing hardpoints.
Ki-61-III
The Ki-61-III was to have been a modified version of the Ki-61-II with various aerodynamic refinements including the use of an all-round vision canopy. Only one aerodynamic prototype was produced, this aircraft being produced by fitting an all-round vision canopy to a stock Ki-61-II. This version was never produced, being abandoned in favor of the radial-engined version of the Hien, the Ki-100. However, the new all-round vision canopy was eventually incorporated into later production models of the Ki-100.
Sources:

* Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War, Rene J. Francillon, Naval Institute Press, 1979.
* Famous Fighters of the Second World War, William Green, Doubleday, 1967.
* Aircraft in Profile: The Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien, Rene J. Francillon, 1966.
* War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume 3, William Green, Doubleday, 1964.

Fliger747
10-12-2004, 10:37 PM
Good reference! To solve the problem, do what the Japanese did, replace the engine with a Ha 112-II radial and call it the Ki-100! A truly great airplane!

Giganoni
10-13-2004, 12:11 AM
I still prefer Marks index designations for the Ki-61. His sources are more varied and include Japanese sources.


"There may be some controversy about the designations of the different versions of the Hien. It is not certain that the 388 Ki-61-I's equipped with the Mauser MG 151 20mm guns ever received the official designation "Hei". Consequently, some sources refer to the later, longer version as the "Ki-61-Ic" instead of "d". (The Japanese "Ko", "Otsu", "Hei" and "Tei" are equivalent to a, b, c, and d) Others add the expression "Kai" (modified) to various models, although it was probably not officially assigned, except for the Ki-61-II. Others dignify the Ki-61-I experimentally fitted with two wing-mounted 30mm cannons (and not included in this page's gallery) as the I-Tei. I've tried to assign the designations so as to best correspond with what's most frequently found in recent sources. The important thing, after all, is to recognize the models and their place in the chain of development."

you can read the rest of it here.
http://www.marksindex.com/japaneseaviation/hien.html


Either way we are getting a Ki-61 with cannons in the wings. Wether the game considers it the Ki-61-Hei or not. There are screenies of it.

LEXX_Luthor
10-13-2004, 03:06 AM
Yes, Giganoni thanks for posting the link you refer to.

VOL_Hans
10-13-2004, 09:47 AM
KI-61 will be my main ride for flying Japanese. I'm gonna need a little help figureing out what is what though, lol.

I've been told that "Ki, Hei, and Otsu" are the models in the game...
Now, seeing as till now it's always been "Ia, Ib" and so on to me... When youve got all the data infront of you its simple enough. When your in game...

Just Imagine over TS: "Uhh, Hey guys, what does 'Otsu' and 'Hei' mean again?"

LOVE he way the Japanese named it all THIER OWN way! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Giganoni
10-13-2004, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VOL_Hans:
KI-61 will be my main ride for flying Japanese. I'm gonna need a little help figureing out what is what though, lol.

I've been told that "Ki, Hei, and Otsu" are the models in the game...
Now, seeing as till now it's always been "Ia, Ib" and so on to me... When youve got all the data infront of you its simple enough. When your in game...

Just Imagine over TS: "Uhh, Hey guys, what does 'Otsu' and 'Hei' mean again?"

LOVE he way the Japanese named it all THIER OWN way! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is pretty easy. There is no Ki-61 ki, it is a typo. Versions in the game should be Ki-61 Ko, Otsu and Hei. Which is A, B, C. Tei is like D

KAI is something else you'll frequently see, that just means improved. So the Ki-43 II kai is Ki-43 II improved.

Now as for Ki-46 III Recce, that is beyond me because there is no letter C in Japanese. Anyone know what that is trying to say?

VW-IceFire
10-13-2004, 04:38 PM
So what armament options will we see with the Ki-61 then? I'm confused now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We've got A, B, and C which I presume correspond to the scheme for the aircraft list (Kai, Otsu, etc.).

So is the A 2x7.7mm and 2x12.7, B 4x.12.7mm and C 2x12.7mm and 2x20mm (Ho-5 or MG151/20?).

Giganoni
10-13-2004, 05:07 PM
I'm pretty sure Ki 61 I Ko (a) will be.

2x 12.7mm guns 2x 7.7mm

Ki 61 I Otsu (b) will be.

4x 12.7mm guns

Ki 61 I Hei (c) will be

2x MG151/20 in the wings 2x 12.7mm guns in upper decking. The Ho-5 20mm cannons came later and were placed in the upper decking of a longer version of Ki 61, the Tei (d) version.

Here is a picture from france simulation of what I assume will be the Ki-61 Hei.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Niklamort/grab0000.jpg

The skin is by Tromplamort. I hope he doesn't mind linking this pic. As you can see, cannons in the wing. The pictures of Ki 61 I Otsu have no cannon so I assume this is the Ki 61 I Hei and they are Mg151/20 because those cannon were placed in the wing.

JG53Frankyboy
10-13-2004, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giganoni:

Now as for Ki-46 III Recce, that is beyond me because there is no letter C in Japanese. Anyone know what that is trying to say? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

very simple , that is the unarmed Recon Ki-46-III http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

in komparison to the other two armed versions :
the fighter Ki-46-III-KAI with 2x20mm and 1x27mm and the groundattack Ki-46-III-Otsu with 2x20mm (and no bombs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avdinah.html

and yes, the armament of the Ki-61s , im looking forward wich will be what http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
just, i realy thought ALL Ki-61-I-KAIs had Ho5 cannons in the fuselage. and the MG151/20s were only put in the Ki-61-Ia&b as a replacement of their WingMachineGuns.
butthe picture above should be a Ki-61-I-KAI , because of its nonretractable tailwheel

A.K.Davis
10-13-2004, 06:43 PM
Best info on web for Ki-61:

http://www.marksindex.com/japaneseaviation/hien.html

Atomic_Marten
10-13-2004, 06:49 PM
Ki43 is my favourite Japanese fighter A/C. All the way. About Ki61 I will check it out too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif