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View Full Version : FW190 A4 Immune to Rifle Cal. MG FIRE



XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 02:53 PM
Have tested firing at point blank range with Hurri .303 and P39 MG only, and small debris comes off FW 190A4 but no damage is done, although numerous strikes are seen.

This was online with a human flying the FW.
Have not tested other FW models.

Has anyone else noticed this ?

.50 cal and cannon will damage as normal,but Rifle cal. doesnt seem to scratch the paint!!!

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 02:53 PM
Have tested firing at point blank range with Hurri .303 and P39 MG only, and small debris comes off FW 190A4 but no damage is done, although numerous strikes are seen.

This was online with a human flying the FW.
Have not tested other FW models.

Has anyone else noticed this ?

.50 cal and cannon will damage as normal,but Rifle cal. doesnt seem to scratch the paint!!!

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 03:11 PM
the nose guns of the p39 are .50cal.

But they're all messed up.. (ask gibbage).

-Thanks to Freddie; i'm a sexual spastic.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 03:28 PM
Hmm wonder why my A4 tends to roll to its damaged wing after slightest damage from 50s on it. And topspeed reduced remarkable. (Even damage not shown is there).But sure you did notice this too . Tested dozens of times vs p39q1.


Regards,
Hyperion




Message Edited on 10/14/0302:29PM by BBB_Hyperion

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 04:08 PM
BBB_Hyperion wrote:
- Hmm wonder why my A4 tends to roll to its damaged
- wing after slightest damage from 50s on it. And
- topspeed reduced remarkable. (Even damage not shown
- is there).But sure you did notice this too . Tested
- dozens of times vs p39q1.
-
-
- Regards,
- Hyperion

He wrote:".50 cal and cannon will damage as normal,but Rifle cal. doesnt seem to scratch the paint!!!"

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 04:41 PM
that´s OK so

Brit´s noticed in Bob that their 8rifles didnt bring down a 109 with one burst but the 20mm´s of the 109 were deadly with a few hit´s !
So they developed a wing with 2x20mm.

the well armored and stable 190 could eat this rifle projectiles with ease.

on the other hand the 190´s flightperformance in FB goes down very quickly with some hits but you cant see any scratch/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/110missing.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 07:38 PM
FW190's DM is being improved for patch. Right now it's simplified and the tail section can absord a ton of small caliber hits with no effect. Even now, though, the 190 is not invulnerable to damage by rifle caliber bullets.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 09:58 PM
Immune? NO way.. one bullet hole is sometimes enough usually to do so much damage, that A-4 looses up to 200KMH top speed and considerable drag to other wing.. This sucks, that one riffle bullet can do so much damage..

Then again you cant really down the 190 with MG, but only to make holes, so he wont escape ur cannon ammo.. Hit to engine or pilot does the job. It is indeed simplified, just like Lagg3 DM is..


____________________________________



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/sig3.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 10:39 PM
Vipez- wrote:
- Immune? NO way.. one bullet hole is sometimes enough
- usually to do so much damage, that A-4 looses up to
- 200KMH top speed and considerable drag to other
- wing.. This sucks, that one riffle bullet can do so
- much damage..
-
- Then again you cant really down the 190 with MG, but
- only to make holes, so he wont escape ur cannon
- ammo.. Hit to engine or pilot does the job. It is
- indeed simplified, just like Lagg3 DM is..

I didn't even make holes in the wings with the .303.
The only way I was able to score a kill on a FW190A4 was because he scaved the ground during a low level dogfight and I got the pilot while he was running away from the plane.

Even after a few strafing runs over the plane didn't really do anything.

Maybe the LaGG3 has a simplefied DM but that plane I shot down fairly easy with the Hurricane MKI, while with the MKIIb I didn't do squat on the FW190A4.

The FW190A4 was a sturdy plane but not this sturdy.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 12:57 AM
I originally noticed this after running out of cannon ammo and using some MG on P39 N1 .A fresh Fw190a4 that I engaged and saw numerous MG hitts and small debris loss did not appear to take any damage.
The p39 has 2 .50 and 4 .303 mgs.

I tested only the Hurri with no damage after emptying a whole ammo load, and the P 40 with an easy kill on a FW flown by a human.

I suspect that the .50 runs out of ammo before the .303 does when you have extra ammo.

Anyone know for sure?

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 02:13 AM
Ah Shark my old mate, I keep telling your blokes that we have a spy in your camp that replaces all the live rounds with rubber bullets. You need to do a ordinance check before you take off.

III/JG11_Mel

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:20 AM
Immune? Where's the track to validate this?

Otherwise you're just another anti-190 whiner. Probably a Hurri jock still in shock over the loss of his uber UFO'icane.

Statements like "immune" are irresponsible and not credible unless supported with tracks.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:52 AM
RAAFIL2shark wrote:
- I originally noticed this after running out of
- cannon ammo and using some MG on P39 N1 .A fresh
- Fw190a4 that I engaged and saw numerous MG hitts and
- small debris loss did not appear to take any damage.
- The p39 has 2 .50 and 4 .303 mgs.

The P-39 50 cal are at half damage, or so Gibbage says. Also, the P-39's wing guns are 30-06, not .303.

Theres a reason they started using cannons and heavy machine guns over rifle caliber machine guns.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 08:53 AM
nixon-fiend wrote:
- the nose guns of the p39 are .50cal.

There's something odd about the ROF/ammo count, but
according to JtD's testing, they are about as powerful
as the UBS/K 12.7mm guns in terms of the number of
shots required to take down whatever he tested them
on (Lagg3? I can't remember).

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 08:58 AM
Korolov wrote:
- The P-39 50 cal are at half damage, or so Gibbage
- says. Also, the P-39's wing guns are 30-06, not
- .303.

I think what Gibbage is saying that they used to be
half damage, but they've been changed to full damage
now (in the patch, AFAIK), but the ROF/ammo count has
been messed up so they run out too soon. JtD's tests
seem to confirm that the P39 nose .50 rounds do about
the same damage as UBS/K and .50 rounds from P40s and
P47s now.

- Theres a reason they started using cannons and heavy
- machine guns over rifle caliber machine guns.

Yep. Hawker experimented with 4 cannon Hurricanes
even before WW2, and the RAF issued the specification
for a plane with 50% more armament than an 8 .303
fighter in 1937 AFAIK. A 2 cannon, 4 .303 Spitfire
has probably got the equivalent firepower of 14 .303s,
which is pretty close to 50% more than the 8 .303
versions.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 09:11 AM
feiz wrote:
- Immune? Where's the track to validate this?
-
- Otherwise you're just another anti-190 whiner.
- Probably a Hurri jock still in shock over the loss
- of his uber UFO'icane.
-
- Statements like "immune" are irresponsible and not
- credible unless supported with tracks.

First of all, it's Newbiecane or Ubercane, not uber UFO'icane.

Second, we are not talking about the flight model.

Third, anybody can make a quick mission and try it out himself, just you in a Hurricane against 1 Veteran FW190A4 and try to shoot it down.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 11:46 AM
- Third, anybody can make a quick mission and try it
- out himself, just you in a Hurricane against 1
- Veteran FW190A4 and try to shoot it down.
-
-

Hurri MKI vs A4 AI ACE
Just did it and made a track of it . You can page me on UBI if you cant reproduce it .

The Wing shows clearly damage texture after shooting concentrated on the wing . The ACE AI Pilot had his difficulties in turns with a droping right wing too even before damage was shown. However it takes ages to damage it but that maybe correct with such small caliber . Downing that FW however seems only to work with pilot or engine kill.

Regards,
Hyperion

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 11:54 AM
OK....

I managed to shoot down a 190 A-5 with the Hurri MG's by cutting away a wing. However! This was using unlimited ammo!

With the normal ammo load it seemed impossible for me (crappy shooting /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) to down an 190 A series fighters.

I have no trouble with the P-47.

It also seems that 7.62mm ammo is ineffective against the 190's - try an IL-2 MG's and you will see what I mean.

The DM for the 190 is messed up as many have pointed out, but I think this really does need looking at. I can understand the "tail" of the 190 being an old simplified 'Box' DM. But the whole aircraft, barring the wings (which I shot off with hurricane .303's) seems on the whole "effectively" immune to rifle calibre MG's.

I say "effectively" because IT CAN BE DONE! but for me I needed lots of ammo to do it, and I don't think it would be possible in one normal ammo load.

BTW - I am obviously not a hurri jock... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/190hurri.jpg


JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 12:34 PM
No Text

Message Edited on 10/15/0301:07PM by JG5_UnKle

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 12:41 PM
OK It was my shooting all along. Obviously you guys are crappy shots too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Seriously though. I just took up a Hurri with normal ammo load and downed a FW-190 A-4 with ammo to spare.

It surprised me! Be sure /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

This was from dead 6 mainly (never the best angle) and I removed his wing with a few (better aimed this time /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif ) bursts from the .303's.

So basically guys NO the 190 is NOT immune to rifle ammo and here is the track to prove it : http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/190downed.zip

If you watch the track you will see I empty the guns afterwards so there is no way I was on unlimited.

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

Message Edited on 10/15/0301:11PM by JG5_UnKle

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 01:11 PM
*BUMP*

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 01:18 PM
I see the FW190 still has the "only the outer part of the wing can be damaged/shot off" issue.

I have not been able to kill the pilot or the engine with the .303 guns and I hit the cockpit and the engine section multiple times during my tests.
I could only make it pull a thin grey smoke trail but that's it.
The aft section cannot be damaged either and have not noticed any control surfaces loss either.

With the P-47 or P40 you only need a 1 or 2 second burst and the FW190 tumbles down completely out of control.

There is clearly an issue with the rest of the FW190 body and inner wing parts and damage from small caliber ammo.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 01:24 PM
Yes agree. Heavy damage to wings possible, engine damage also possible. Can't damage the tail at all.


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 01:40 PM
Yo Emil S!

I was of the mindset that the 190 was all but "immune" like the original poster stated, then I attempted it myself /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Will have to try in V1.2 and see if it has improved at all. I also found that the LaGG-3 was difficult to down too but this is alleged to have a simplified DM too (like the 190) and may go some way to explaining this.

The question is this though, is it the 190 that is over-modelled or the .303 that is under modelled? Before you answer you might try something like this:

Quick Mission Builder.
Your aircraft : Hurricane (one with MG's!! Only)
Friendly Flights : Bf109E-4, Bf109G-2, Bf109G-6 Late.

Try shooting at these three aircraft and you will notice very different results (IMHO) which could be described away by better armour? So maybe the .303 is part of the issue and the rest is 190 armour?

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 02:12 PM
that track is the 1938 Hurri?

S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Skies Virtual War
Forum: http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/index.php
Website: http://www.forgottenskies.com
Visit 609IAP at http://takeoff.to/609IAP

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg

Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 02:29 PM
Recon_609IAP wrote:
- that track is the 1938 Hurri?

No, it is the 1940 one the IIb IIRC

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 03:02 PM
You guys may be forgetting to set correct convergeance settings... just change distances a couple of times to see what works best, haven't tested yet but this is very important vs. other aircraft though.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 03:07 PM
RGR That MetalG /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I was hinting with the "crappy shooting" comment /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif At first I had 300M set but I lowered it to 100-150 and found much better close-in results.

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 03:10 PM
UnKle...are you back now mate?

Love the JG5 thread hijacking we haven't done this in ages....W00t!!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

It seems to me that you can't do any damage with the .303 on the tail section of the A4. Since (from dead six) this tends to get in the way of the rest of the aircraft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif it make the whole aircraft appear invulnerable.

P.s S! MetalG....all we need is JaRa to turn up and we got a party!

p.p.s Will check out 1.2


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 03:14 PM
I am not forgetting this, mine is set to 150 or 200 meters.

Beyond the 200 meter range it's even worse, like it should be.

There is clearly a problem here, and not only the browning .303's are involved, all machine guns have this problem against a few planes and the FW190 happens to be one of them.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 03:24 PM
RGR Emil - I'm back /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Just read your Combat Mission report from last night M8 & confirmed your kill - very nice /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Good fun in the ORR /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I agree there certainly is a problem with the DM of the 190 but IIRC this is a known issue, especially (as Emil pointed out) the tail section of the 190 has a simplified DM.

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

Message Edited on 10/15/0304:00PM by JG5_UnKle

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 04:16 PM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
-
- -
- I didn't even make holes in the wings with the .303.
- The only way I was able to score a kill on a FW190A4
- was because he scaved the ground during a low level
- dogfight and I got the pilot while he was running
- away from the plane.
-
- Even after a few strafing runs over the plane didn't
- really do anything.
-
- Maybe the LaGG3 has a simplefied DM but that plane I
- shot down fairly easy with the Hurricane MKI, while
- with the MKIIb I didn't do squat on the FW190A4.
-
- The FW190A4 was a sturdy plane but not this sturdy.
-
-


Yep you can't see the holes, but they are there.. affecting the perfomance.. every .303 bullet you hit has its own negative affect on FW-190 perfomance.. One short burts to wing, and FW-190 is quite not cabable to fight as it was before it was hit.. IT just does not have the external models for bullet holes.. only problem with 190 is the harneded steel tail-section.. however I am sure it will get fixxed.. Lagg3 probably never get fixxed, as the history has showed to us..





____________________________________



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/sig3.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 04:31 PM
It seems that the tail plane has almost no DM at all. Just emptied a stack of 20 mm cannon from a G2 in to the tail section. No damage at all, rudder worked right up to the end.


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 05:06 PM
Hmm I disagree Emil. Try the Yak-1B for example. Tried a couple of times, takes the tail clean off the FW with short bursts.
The .303s seem quite ineffective but as vipez said they do some damage, although I'm not sure if you can actually notice this when flying the FW.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 05:56 PM
I tried this in QMB with Hurri Mk IIB 1940 model against FW-190A4 and 190A9, and I have proven, with track as evidence, that the DM of the control surfaces and entire tail "ignores" .303 bullet hits. The funny thing about the track is that it show hundreds of hits, and hundreds of pieces of debris falling off the FW, but the FW keeps flying along in perfect condition, and accelerates and pulls away from the Hurri. As others have pointed out, the engine can be damaged by MG.

S!

SKULLS_LZ

SKULLS Squadron VF-98
"Better than the Best"

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:03 PM
Yup, I think the Tail DM is "simplified" - but it can be damaged. From what I have found recently;

the 7.92mm MG's of the early 109's seem to do little or no damage.

the 7.62mm MG's on VVS aircraft like the IL-2 also do very little.

the .303 (7.7 mm) MG's on the hurricane (obviously) as this is what this post is partly about - very little damage.

If you step up to the 12.7mm MG's though in the Yaks for example you find they are very effective. They can readily penetrate the fuel tank from below - killing the 190 in an instant fireball. They can damage tail surfaces and remove the whole tail assembly - also easily (and more commonly IMHO) detach the wing with a few rounds.

Now I'm not so sure that a single 12.7mm MG can put more damage on target than six to eight .303's from 100M /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif So perhaps the armour of the 190 is overmodelled, the .303 is undermodelled and maybe the 12.7 mm MG's are overmodelled a little /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif





JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 09:02 PM
.303 effect seems low. Rifle caliber isnt so great for doing structural damage, but such amount of lead propably should make wing structures to fail earlier.


I targeted outer wing as it should be the most vulnerable point of wing in real 190s. The wing was constructed on one piece metal support spar extending to both sides of the fuselage making structure VERY tough. Support spar ended in around mid wing.

After some 4secs sustained burst from 100-150m (with 150m conv) wing was full of big holes. However it needed 8sec total before wing was finally ripped off.

I think this should be checked by devs.
(and check those climbrates too dammithttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

http://www.saunalahti.fi/meheko/Image2.jpg




PS. If i was flying hurri against 190 i would target its bottom and engine/cockpit. Thats where 8x.303 "shotgun" is very effective.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 03:06 AM
There are many historical accounts speaking of the difficulty of downing a 190, one by a pretty well known ww2 flyer, Col. "Kit" Carson, who engaged a 190 over France in a P-51, and unloaded every single round he had available at said 190, which in turn started smoking, and flew home.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:24 AM
BaronVonSnoopy wrote:
- There are many historical accounts speaking of the
- difficulty of downing a 190, one by a pretty well
- known ww2 flyer, Col. "Kit" Carson, who engaged a
- 190 over France in a P-51, and unloaded every single
- round he had available at said 190, which in turn
- started smoking, and flew home.

Leadspitter posted a original WWII guncam footage of a P-51 gunning down a FW190 without wasting his entire ammo load.
I am sure he has more of them.

p51d kill on 190
http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/3.avi

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:45 AM
With .50 cal ammo I have no problem downing 190's in FB. Just add a little deflection and its easy to down 4 190's with a normal ammo load.

The issue here is with the lower (rifle) calibre ammo.

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 12:16 PM
JG5_UnKle wrote:
- With .50 cal ammo I have no problem downing 190's in
- FB. Just add a little deflection and its easy to
- down 4 190's with a normal ammo load.
-
- The issue here is with the lower (rifle) calibre
- ammo.
-
- JG5_UnKle

I know, I have no problems with the .50's.
I just replied to his example with another example. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 01:20 PM
LOL - I was answering his post too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 01:38 PM
Sorry, sometimes I am a bit slow.
Especially when I am at work but rather be somewhere else. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 02:49 PM
JG5_UnKle wrote:
- With .50 cal ammo I have no problem downing 190's in
- FB. Just add a little deflection and its easy to
- down 4 190's with a normal ammo load.
-
- The issue here is with the lower (rifle) calibre
- ammo.
-
- JG5_UnKle
-
- "Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane.
- If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does,
- will kick your ***"
-
-
- <img
- src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens
- /jg5_logo.jpg"/>


12.7mm Browning(.50 caliber): 668 grain bullet at 2910 feet per second delivering 12,550 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle.

303 Enfield: 174 grain bullet at 2428 feet per second with 2600 foot-pounds of muzzle energy

The 12.7mm also retains energy better due a better ballistic coefficient(bullet doesn't slow down as quickly). The 50 cal has almost 5 times the amount of energy. The hitting power advantage is more than just one bullet having twice the diameter of another.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:47 PM
This is true, however I fail to see why one VVS 12.7mm UB MG is able to down a FW-190 (Trust me - you should try it!) while six to eight .303 MG's cannot.

No issue with the .50 Cal here /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I was more concerned with the lower calibre stuff not doing much to the 190. The .50 Cal to me seems just fine, what I meant was that you can down a 190 with just a single 12.7mm VVS MG like on the Yak-1B.

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:03 PM
Remember that the single 12.7mm in the Yak-1 is like 4 or 5 .303 bullets hitting in the same spot. 2 12.7mm MG's should be able to deliver more energy on target than the 8 303's of the Hurricane. Of course the 303's higher rate of fire should make the damage per second balance out. The P-39Q-10 minus the cannon should do about the same damage as the Hurricane Mk I. The old debate in aerial gunnery has always been lots of little hits versus a couple big ones.

I couldn't comment on how effective the 303's are since I dont fly the Hurri MK I at all. I usually fly the IIc or the field mod. Without knowing how weapon damage is coded it's hard to come up with conclusive information proving that 190's armor is overdone or 303 MG's are underdone.

I do know however that gun convergence plays a big factor in this game. Aircraft with wing mounted MG's do a lot more damage when all the guns are hitting one area of the target. I think gun convergence and the muzzle flash obscuring the gunsight is the reason for the perceived weakness of the FW190's 20mm cannons.

I'll do some testing of my own when I get some time and see If can figure anything out. Years of playing online RPG's have made me pretty good at finding holes and inconsistencies in games.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:22 PM
Also, it was voiced by British military types around the WW1 era that they were concerned about the effectiveness of "rifle caliber machine guns" in aviation applications. That is because the "rifle calibers" (aka .303, etc) don't have the penetrating power to do much structural damage due to the relative low weight of the projectile. You didn't see many US planes with Browning 1919's (.30 cal) stuffed into the wings. There *must* be a good reason for that.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:01 PM
I've reviewed all the evidence and have reached a verdict.

The FW190 A4 is not "immune" to Rifle Cal. MG. The .303 round of the Hurricane is capable of damaging FW190 engine and outer wings. FW190 cannot be downed by shooting only its rear fuselage and tail assembly with .303 MG fire (with standard ammo loadout), which is consistent with the ballistics of the .303 round versus the armor and structural durability of those parts of the FW190.

The only "inconsistency" related to the DM of FW190 is that the visual representation of debris knocked from the tail and fuselage of the FW190 by .303 MG seems to be out of proportion to the amount of actual damage inflicted, but this is an acceptable limitation of the software and for optimal online play should not be changed.

Thank you gentlemen, and have a good day! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!

SKULLS_LZ

SKULLS Squadron VF-98
"Better than the Best"

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 07:40 AM
SKULLS_LZ wrote:
- I've reviewed all the evidence and have reached a
- verdict.
-
- The FW190 A4 is not "immune" to Rifle Cal. MG. The
- .303 round of the Hurricane is capable of damaging
- FW190 engine and outer wings. FW190 cannot be
- downed by shooting only its rear fuselage and tail
- assembly with .303 MG fire (with standard ammo
- loadout), which is consistent with the ballistics of
- the .303 round versus the armor and structural
- durability of those parts of the FW190.

I dont think that the Elevators , Rudders, and associated flight control components are resistant to 30cal ammo.

They are certinly NOT ARMORED .

Same goes for Flaps and the control runs to the ailerons.

FW190 should be tough, but not that tough.

Cheers
Shark

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 10:08 AM
On the other hand, UBS, ShVAK and ShKAS down 190s regularly. Just spent some fun time in a good '42 MP room, and I can't even count how many times I've lost aileron cables from enemy machine gun fire at 500~600 meters while luring them into a vertical.

The issues are multi-related in my opinion. It isn't about just one thing.

For one thing, the dispersion of the bullets themselves, I don't see much of a problem. But gunfire-induced destabilization of fine aim, in the planes armed with multiple guns at the wings, seem to be too great in some planes.

Simular discussions have been present about many planes, and it offers some interesting empirical claims. One of them being "the 6x.50s on the P-40s, are more powerful than the 8x.50s on the P-47s". Obviously, my experience with MP engagements, offline combat, target shooting and etc, tells me that the problem may be with how the plane handles while the trigger is pulled. In the case of the P-40, the aiming reticle stays rock solid. Same with Yaks or Lavochkin variants.

On the other hand, the P-47 dances and throws around aim severely. Pretty much same can be said about the Hawker Hurricane series, too. Quite often during combat, the usual problem when firing guns on the Hurricane or the P-47, is actually not about whether or not your bullets are doing damage. It's more of whether you can stay on target at all.

Compared with some planes that retain 'rock-solid' aiming while pulling the trigger, such as P-40s, P-39s, Yaks or Lavochkas, it's no wonder the Hurricane or the P-47s meets problems downing a target even with favorable gun solution. The moment you pull the trigger the "solution" disappears.

Now, couple that with the known "former version DM" of some planes like the LaGG-3 or the Fw190, that should sufficiently explain why some planes seem to take enormous hits and fly by, while others can down them hundreds of meters away with short bursts.

..

Maybe the truth is somewhere in between.

Maybe the Hurris and P-47s should shake around less, and the Yaks, P-39s, P-40s, Las should shake around more. And the DM should be enhanced and corrected.

But then again, complex DM is always partial to problems, and we could be imagining things.







-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 10:13 AM
I'm a deer hunter and hitting power is a huge debate amongst us.

I grew up hunting in the Southeastern part of the US. The areas I usually hunted were composed of 100-300 yard wide fields surround by heavy brush. You ideally didn't want an animal to run more than 100 yards after being shot or else you might not be able to find it. Losing a wounded animal is cruel and wasteful. The dense brush surrounding the fields meant you almost always would get only one shot.

When I was buying my first rifle I had to take into account both trajectory and hitting power. A deer's vital area is roughly an 8-12 inch circle. Also it takes about 850 foot-pounds of energy to guarantee a quick kill with a weel placed shot(heart, lung or spine hit).

In selecting a rifle I need one that didn't deviate from my line of sight more than a total of 4 inches, +2 inches or -2 inches, from my scope crosshairs out to 300 yards. It also had to deliver over 850 ft lbs of energy at 300 yards.

These 2 requirements eliminated a lot of rifles from consideration. I had considered an old Lee-Enfield .303 surplus rifle just because with scope, sporter stock and rifle I could walk out the door without spending over 200 bucks. It just didn't deliver the trajectory I needed at longer ranges. It was just at the limit as far as hitting power. Under 150 yards it performed very well especially with it's quick bolt but the bullet started slowing down very quickly after that.

An airplane is much tougher than a thin-skinned American Whitetail. If a cartridge barely delivers 850 ft lbs of energy at 300 yards it's not going to have that great an effect on an airplane until you get very close i.e. 150 yards.

My own tactics in MG only armed acft consist setting up 40-60 degree angle off shots and trying to score engine or pilot hit's. I make an exception against P-39 owing to it's mid mounted engine. I attack 'Cobras from the low 6 o'clock position if possible. This takes advantage the higher rate fire MG's give you. An engine, much less a pilot hit, even by MG fire usually does enough damage to get the job done.

Against bombers I usually make head-on passes trying for a pilot kill. The high 12 o'clock pass is deadly against the HE-111. I can usually get a pilot kill on my second pass while only taking a couple light hits from the defensive guns.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 12:36 PM
kweassa wrote:
- On the other hand, the P-47 dances and throws
- around aim severely. Pretty much same can be said
- about the Hawker Hurricane series, too. Quite often
- during combat, the usual problem when firing guns on
- the Hurricane or the P-47, is actually not about
- whether or not your bullets are doing damage. It's
- more of whether you can stay on target at all.
-
-
- Compared with some planes that retain 'rock-solid'
- aiming while pulling the trigger, such as P-40s,
- P-39s, Yaks or Lavochkas, it's no wonder the
- Hurricane or the P-47s meets problems downing a
- target even with favorable gun solution. The moment
- you pull the trigger the "solution" disappears.


Finnish pilots called p-39 "the rocking chair" because it rocked back and forth every time when firing its cannon. Obiviously pitch was very unstable when firing.

P-47 on contrary looks like one of the most stabile firing platforms. Heavy weight and center of gravity quite well at nose.



Message Edited on 10/18/0311:38AM by ladoga

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:03 PM
viperUSAF wrote:
-
- An airplane is much tougher than a thin-skinned
- American Whitetail.

Hate to tell you this but the primary flight controls on the FW190 are FABRIC COVERED. Yes similar stuff to a rifle range roundel target. Ive put lots of holes in them with a .303 at over 300yards.
Kurt Tank designed a tough aircraft but it is not a TANK!!

The point of this thread is to see if we can get better damage models.

If you pump enough 30 cal into tail flight controls from the 6 o'clock you should do some damage.

If the same problem exists on a LAGG then it should be fixed too.

Cheers
Shark

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 05:10 PM
I guess we will have to wait until V1.2 and see if the DM is improved.

If not, then we can bring the whole thing to light again /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:07 AM
I think in general here the problem is taht the .303 sucked in real life so it is modeled to suck, why do you think they put 12 in the hurris? But for some reason they musta forgot to program in that even though they suck, they should still be able to get control surfaces once in a while. Now the problem I think with the Lagg is that they had the IL2 damage models already done and didnt feel like making a separate one for the lagg. IMHO the lagg right now is easily the toughest plane in the game. Gotta love that delta titanium, i mean wood.

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 10:37 AM
lbhskier37 wrote:
"Now the problem I think with the Lagg is that they had the IL2 damage models already done and didnt feel like making a separate one for the lagg. IMHO the lagg right now is easily the toughest plane in the game. Gotta love that delta titanium, i mean wood"

Not against rifle caliber bullets, the LaGG3 can be shot down pretty easy in a Hurricane.
Against rifle caliber the FW wins when it comes to absorbing them.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 03:20 PM
well lagg must be just the toughest against cannon shells. It can be taken down, but I think its the hardedst thing to take down in the FW. The La5-7 are pretty easy to knock down, shouldnt they be about the same?

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 10:08 PM
lbhskier37 wrote:
- I think in general here the problem is taht the .303
- sucked in real life so it is modeled to suck, why do
- you think they put 12 in the hurris?

.303s did not 'suck' (- whatever that quaint expression means).
They were perfectly adequate in groupings of eight or more for destroying unarmoured enemy aircraft- at least, in 1940.
The weight of fire of British fighters had been carefully calculated to deliver a lethal dose of bullets (destructive energy) in 2 secs and machine guns were the preferred way of doing this.
The Swedish 20mm Oerlikon cannon (upon which the 109E's MGFF was based) was also available to Supermarine for installation in the Spitfire in 1939 under license, but was rejected- it was deemed too slow- firing and unreliable.
The only reason the British moved towards hispano cannon (in late 1940) was that the Germans began adding armour plate to the backs of their engine compartments and cockpits- from about August 1940 (somewhat after the British, incidentally).
This was one of the reasons why German crash wreckage was so closely examined during the Battle of Britain- so that British military intelligence could properly assess the prevalence and thickness of armour in Germany's aircraft.
303s were no good against armoured aircraft with self- sealing tanks- but for the most part acquitted themselves very well during the BoB against unarmoured opponents.
By early 1941 all German aircraft had been armoured, either on the production line or by using field- mod. kits, so the Russians faced a rather different situation.

The 12 gun Hurricane was produced as insurance against a shortage of hispano cannon in 1941- which in the event did not occur.

This crap about 'pea shooters' annoys me. As someone once said, imagine sitting in your car whilst somebody fires eight .303s at it from 150 yards. Without any kind of armour plate you would be lucky to survive- your petrol tank certainly wouldn't.