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Jumoschwanz
11-26-2004, 08:15 AM
Finally, in recent months, instead of flailing about out of control at the top of stalls, I have begun to be somewhat proficient at the hammerhead manuever.

I don't know why it took such a long time for me to get tired of being shot down as a result of my bad form at the top of stalls. It ate away at me for a while and one day when I needed something to do I taught myself how to do the hammerhead.

The advantages of controlling your craft in this way are many. Of course it is never good to be out of control. If you spend more time out of control than your opponent then you put yourself more and more at risk of him getting an upper hand.

The hammerhead allows you to keep energy and gain the maximum altitude you can gain in close proximity to your opponent and still keep total control.

Your input to your controls to pull this manuever off will vary from craft to craft. This is because engine rotation and torque are different in different crafts.

To start you must know the minimum speed at which your craft can smoothly go vertical. Knowing this is the difference between doing it right and wrong. When you and an opponent go vertical, the one that does not have the energy to pull it off ends up at a disadvantage at the end of the manuever. If you know the minimum speed that your craft can pull this off at, you can trick your overeager opponent who might not have the energy, to follow you up and lose control or advantage.

After you know your minimum speed and are going vertical the next step takes place when your speed drops below 100 km/hr. This is when you have to note which direction your craft's engine torque is trying to roll you. You counter this with full airelons while simultaneously kicking the rudder full to spin your plane 180 degrees and point it to the ground. Engine torque will also dictate whether you kick the rudder right or left, so once again it depends on which craft you are in.

Once the manuever is completed properly, you are pointing straight down in full control of your craft. You have gained maximum energy and have a head start on gaining more. Not to mention you have a good chance of seeing your opponent flailing and stalling somewhere below you and in front of your guns. S!

Jumoschwanz

rummyrum
11-26-2004, 08:21 AM
Rope a Dope, great when it works not so great when it does'nt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Cajun76
11-26-2004, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
............

Once the manuever is completed properly, you are pointing straight down in full control of your craft. You have gained maximum energy and have a head start on gaining more. Not to mention you have a good chance of seeing your opponent flailing and stalling somewhere below you and in front of your guns. S!

Jumoschwanz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I hope plenty of people read that, easy kills all the way. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Give me a choice of 500m or 250km/hr on my opponent, I'll take the speed, anyday. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

bazzaah2
11-26-2004, 08:30 AM
I've used it a few times and can work pretty well. Even if you don't get a killing burst on the way down, it's really useful to turn tables on someone.

FatBoyHK
11-26-2004, 12:38 PM
you need a heavier plane and a significantly higher energy, otherwise you will be a toss well done before you reach the top of your zoom..... you can experiment with it in QMB.

VF-29_Sandman
11-26-2004, 05:05 PM
it will turn the tables on a bandit, but it also relys on timing. shooting a vertical with a bandit in tow is risky at the get go, but if u have the climb rate over the bogey, he'll soon be toast following u.

Jungmann
11-26-2004, 06:47 PM
Jumo, I've tried hammerheads but they wouldn't work for me. In RL, you need a point on the horizon to the side to align the wing on, you need to look back and forth to make sure both tips are the same distance above the horizon as you come up, and you need a road or something on the ground below you to keep from banking as you come around and point down. I've got my views on a hat swtich, and I've never been able to figure out where to look. Any advice?

Cheers,

Jumoschwanz
11-26-2004, 08:41 PM
Even before I did hammerheads well I figured out how to keep my plane in this sim vertical until it stalled out.

I fly with only a hatswitch myself. I have no track IR or Newview or anything else. Just the sim, me and my MS Precision 2 for the last four years(Before I got il2 in late 2001 I used this stick for earlier sims).

When I am climbing in an attempt to go vertical I just move my hatswitch to the left or right and look out the side window. You have to know your plane type so you can see the relationship between the wingtip and the horizon. On my 109 the wingtip just about sits on the horizon when the plane is going straight up. Also when the plane is vertical the horizon itself will make a vertical line on your monitor. Using these quick checks and a little practice you can keep any craft vertical in both planes, forward and back and sideways. When I get below 100km/hr and apply controls, I am looking in the direction the plane is falling so I can see the horizon and the ground and make tiny adjustments that are needed in the controls and that only experience will teach you.

This is a manuever to be carried out with either full or near full throttle through most of the manuever. If you have the throttle chopped off the craft will simply fall backwards toward the ground tail first. It is the wind from the prop that makes the aerilons and rudder respond.

Your plane is it's smallest target from the dead six o'clock position, and it is a harder target when your opponent is stalling out at the limits of his controls. I have often had hits on my plane during this manuever, have stayed cool and completed it, and shot down the opponent below me. Yes it is to be used at the right place and time just like any other manuever, it is not a cure all but to me it is right at the top of my bag of tricks as far as being important S!

Jumoschwanz

Copperhead310th
11-27-2004, 02:18 AM
P-47 is really great aircraft for the hammerhead. i use it quite often. and you know you've got it down when you start truning 1/4 turns every 1/2 second to throw off thier fireing salution on the way up. I often kill 190's in that way. there nothing you can't catch in a dive in a jug.

OldMan____
11-27-2004, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
P-47 is really great aircraft for the hammerhead. i use it quite often. and you know you've got it down when you start truning 1/4 turns every 1/2 second to throw off thier fireing salution on the way up. I often kill 190's in that way. there nothing you can't catch in a dive in a jug. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not true.. try to catch a Me262 :P No propeller drag.. dive like hell....

The_Great_Stonk
11-27-2004, 06:37 AM
a similar move is also very effective in the p38, its not a hammerhead as such, its more of a tailslide loop, with twin engines and one huge elevator you have alot of pitch authority at slow speeds and high power settings if you enter the same as a hammer head, only after your finished hanging on the props (somthing the p38 can do forever hehe) simply pull back hard on the stick at about 50 kmh and youll pull a full 180 in full control in 1 the blink of an eye, very good for holding your advantage, nothing can keep with you long enough vertically like that.

Martial1
11-27-2004, 08:05 AM
LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Going vertical with someone on your six is suicide, unless your opponent is blind. You may be able to stay in the climb longer depending on your initial speed and ride, but there is normally plenty of time to get your butt shot off. Hammer head is for exhibitions not combat. Pul this circus stunt in a dog fight and you will be looking like a clown, and a dead one at that.

Regards

The Martial

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

OldMan____
11-27-2004, 08:59 AM
No.. is bnot. Hammehead is only a bad maneuver if someone is at your six. It is a very good maneuver to force a better position on someone aproaching fast but not directly to you. In other words.. if someone can shoot you.. a hammerhad will only make its life easier.. otherwise it is a very good exchange of speed per potencial energy and angle.

karost
11-27-2004, 10:19 AM
Seem like my favor tactic that work for me in IL-2 original

when I stay in bad situation and my energy gone so I change my tactic to play low altitude maneuver by keep drive down and keep turn left to avoid shoot from my opponent until my speed reach to 300 km/h at 200 meter from the ground , then roll right back and pull up gently 80 degree vertical with gently kick right rudder my altitude increase to 700-800 meter but my speed drop fast to 140 km/h so I kick right rudder harder and roll right 90 degree and still keep pull my stick until I see a ground at upside down that time I stay on edge of stall so my nose's plane drop down to the ground , that improve my turn rate but make the plane fall to ground fast I roll left back 90 degree open combat flap and pull up very gently I lost altitude fast from 800, 500, 300 ,200 meter then at the same time my speed come back to me at 180 km/h and I feel my plane's nose response to my joystick now and if my opponent keep follow like this and if he is not a I-16 or LaGG then 70% he will hit the ground for sure


but please don't use this tactic if you play with FB/AEP because it's not work and we( our old friends) know that... FM for energy bleed was funny and one G stall speed like a paper plane same as you was played when you was a kid


now I see a light of a happy again when path 3.01 of PF come with new modify in FM for energy bleed was put to the right place close to IL-2 original , PF become more interesting for bring us to playing a smart skill for online air war combat again like €œhammerhead€ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

remain about one G stall speed which I feel still keep compromise (IMHO) , I not a real pilot , but EAW is the first game that teach me about how terrible for spin and one G stall speed , when I make landing in TW or Lock-On I can feel about uncompromised for one G stall speed and that is a most fun to play low altitude combat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

OldMan____
11-27-2004, 10:35 AM
Think if your follower decides to make a simple and plain hammerhead when you do so you will end with him above you .. comming down on your plane...


Hammerhead is a meneuver to be used in the moments of "what the hell is that guy doing..? Think he is gonna kill himself"

karost
11-27-2004, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
Hammerhead is a meneuver to be used in the moments of "what the hell is that guy doing..? Think he is gonna kill himself" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes... that is we call "cunning defensive tactic"

if my opponent stay in my 6 at gun range I will apply spin break or turn break or what ever to let him over shoot

if my opponent stay in my 6 out side gun range
- if I have a big energy I will climb turn or other energy tactic.
- but if my energy low so hummerhead or wing over or what I post above is my next choice

the key is force my opponent to lost his good 6 position from me and he are trying to keep stay there just enought time to make a nice shoot at me "that is a moment of a logic".

S!

PBNA-Boosher
11-27-2004, 04:34 PM
THis was a great maneuver as far as WW1 goes, but now with guns much larger than 2 .303's, including high powered cannons, it's a risky maneuver to pull. Of course, if you are vertical it's a very effective maneuver to reverse yourself, but you've got to be careful which opponent you pull it on, it can turn around and bite you in the ****.

Korolov
11-27-2004, 05:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Martial1:
Going vertical with someone on your six is suicide, unless your opponent is blind. You may be able to stay in the climb longer depending on your initial speed and ride, but there is normally plenty of time to get your butt shot off. Hammer head is for exhibitions not combat. Pul this circus stunt in a dog fight and you will be looking like a clown, and a dead one at that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess you've never tried to shoot down a plane zooming into the sun while you're only going about 130kmh.

VF-29_Sandman
11-27-2004, 11:09 PM
i 2nd what korolov said. if u hammerhead into the sun, the sun will effectively blind the bandit as well as u, but will be extremely hard for some1 to hit when blinded. unless he goes to outside view that would probably make that point moot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Jumoschwanz
11-28-2004, 12:26 AM
Part of doing the hammerhead stall correctly, or anything else related to flying correctly is doing it at the right time and place. If you get shot down doing a hammerhead, obviously you didn't know what the he11 you were doing right? Go practice.......S!

Jumoschwanz

Ugly_Kid
11-28-2004, 12:54 AM
Hammerhead doesn't require throttle, not in the game and particularly not in real-life. Even a glider can do pretty neat hammerheads and in a propplane you have to chop the throttle otherwise at the low velocity the torque will thrash you around. Now what accelerates hammerhead in the game, makes it really flip around is cutting the throttle in the zoom, once the speed drops then once applying the rudder put rapidly some throttle back on. I think most of the fighters will flip rapidly a left hammerhead this way.

Copperhead310th
11-28-2004, 01:48 AM
Hammerhead is is best used in this sim with A Speed/E advantage over your persuer. making sure if you can that he is no closer than 1.50 on your 6 o'clock. you have the E & speed to keep climbing and as the case with the 190's you will still be hanging on the prop even after he has stalled it out. just look over your should and wait for the lack of airflow over his wings. once you see the white puffs on his wing tips.....that's when you know you got him.
this is STRICTLY speeking for the P-47 pilot perspective vs the 190.

as for the 262 comment...i was refering to prop driven aircraft only. but since you brought it up....Me-262 is no threat to a p-47 unless they get caught with thier pants down. Sure it's faster but speed ain't every thing. like all LW jets in FB a few .50's in the engine and it's OVER.

Copperhead310th
11-28-2004, 01:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:
Hammerhead doesn't require throttle, not in the game and particularly not in real-life. Even a glider can do pretty neat hammerheads and in a propplane you have to chop the throttle otherwise at the low velocity the torque will thrash you around. Now what accelerates hammerhead in the game, makes it really flip around is cutting the throttle in the zoom, once the speed drops then once applying the rudder put rapidly some throttle back on. I think most of the fighters will flip rapidly a left hammerhead this way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. what he says.

OldMan____
11-28-2004, 05:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
Hammerhead is is best used in this sim with A Speed/E advantage over your persuer. making sure if you can that he is no closer than 1.50 on your 6 o'clock. you have the E & speed to keep climbing and as the case with the 190's you will still be hanging on the prop even after he has stalled it out. just look over your should and wait for the lack of airflow over his wings. once you see the white puffs on his wing tips.....that's when you know you got him.
this is STRICTLY speeking for the P-47 pilot perspective vs the 190.

as for the 262 comment...i was refering to prop driven aircraft only. but since you brought it up....Me-262 is no threat to a p-47 unless they get caught with thier pants down. Sure it's faster but speed ain't every thing. like all LW jets in FB a few .50's in the engine and it's OVER. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

in the same way a p47 will be desintegrated with teh same number of mk108 shells.... so even on this one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

you are the one that brought speed in the balance as a all savior advantage of the P47.... I just pointed that he is NOT the king on that one.

Jumoschwanz
11-29-2004, 09:31 AM
When I do a hammerhead, I am trying to get maximum altitude over an opponent, so I go straight up until my plane is almost stopped at the top. At this low speed, when there is not airflow over any control surfaces, they will not work or respond at all unless you have the throttle on.
In combat you want to go as high as possible in this manuever and spin your plane so it is pointing at the ground BEFORE it starts it's way back down.
If you do it with the throttle off you will have to do it either on the way up when you are still moving air over your controls fast, or after you are going back down fast enough for the controls to work. In the first case you will not attain the alt you will using near full throttle, and in the second case you might end up below your enemy by the time you have control speed. So while yes you can perform a hammerhead of sorts with no throttle, in combat you do not want to.

I can go straight up at full throttle, kick airelons and rudder when my plane is at a dead stanstill at the top of the stall and spin it around so it is pointing straight down in a couple of plane-lengths. This way I have maximum altitude, and am pointing down immediately so I can spot my target and shoot while I am above him.
If you did not use the throttle for this manuever while an opponent is chasing you straight up who is surely using full throttle, then your a$$ is grassed.......S!

Jumoschwanz