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cawimmer430
11-14-2007, 04:21 PM
WWII P-38 Fighter Discovered in Wales

http://www.airforcetimes.com/xml/news/2007/11/ap_lostp38_071114/071114_p38_800_287.jpg

By RICHARD PYLE, AP
1 hour ago
NEW YORK "
Sixty-five years after an American P-38 fighter plane ran out of gas and crash-landed on a beach in Wales, the long-forgotten World War II relic has emerged from the surf and sand where it lay buried.

Beach strollers, sunbathers and swimmers often frolicked within a few yards of the aircraft, unaware of its existence until last summer, when unusual weather caused the sand to shift and erode.

The revelation of the Lockheed "Lightning" fighter, with its distinctive twin-boom design, has stirred interest in British aviation circles and among officials of the country's aircraft museums, ready to reclaim another artifact from history's greatest armed conflict.

Based on its serial number and other records, "the fighter is arguably the oldest P-38 in existence, and the oldest surviving 8th Air Force combat aircraft of any type," said Ric Gillespie, who heads a U.S.-based nonprofit group dedicated to preserving historic aircraft. "In that respect it's a major find, of exceptional interest to British and American aviation historians."

Gillespie finds romance as well as historic significance in the discovery of the aircraft, long forgotten by the U.S. government.

"It's sort of like `Brigadoon,' the mythical Scottish village that appears and disappears," he said. "Although the Welsh aren't too happy about that analogy _ they have some famous legends of their own."

Gillespie's organization, the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery, learned of the plane's existence in September from a British air history enthusiast and sent a team to survey the site last month. The group plans to collaborate with British museum experts in recovering the fragile but nearly intact aircraft next spring.

The Imperial War Museum Duxford and the Royal Air Force Museum are among the institutions expressing interest.

"The difficult part is to keep such a dramatic discovery secret. Looting of historic wrecks, aircraft or ships, is a major problem, in Britain as it is worldwide," Gillespie said.

British aviation publications have been circumspect about disclosing the exact location, and local Welsh authorities have agreed to keep the plane under surveillance whenever it is exposed by the tides of the Irish Sea, he said. For now, the aircraft is again buried under sand.

Officially, the U.S. Air Force considers any aircraft lost before Nov. 19, 1961 _ when a fire destroyed many records _ as "formally abandoned," and has an interest in such cases only if human remains are involved.

The twin-engine P-38, a radical design conceived by Lockheed design genius Clarence "Kelly" Johnson in the late 1930s, became one of the war's most successful fighter planes, serving in Europe and the Pacific. About 10,000 of the planes were built, and about 32 complete or partial airframes are believed to still exist, perhaps 10 in flying condition.

Another P-38, part of a "lost squadron" of warplanes marooned by bad weather in Greenland while being flown to Europe in 1942, was recovered and extensively restored with new parts. Dubbed "Glacier Girl," its attempt to complete the flight to Britain earlier this year was thwarted by mechanical problems.

The Wales Lightning, built in 1941, reached Britain in early 1942 and flew combat missions along the Dutch-Belgian coast.

Second Lt. Robert F. "Fred" Elliott, 24, of Rich Square, N.C., was on a gunnery practice mission on Sept. 27, 1942, when a fuel supply error forced him to make an emergency landing on the nearest suitable place _ the Welsh beach.

His belly landing in shallow water sheared off a wingtip, but Elliott escaped unhurt. Less than three months later, the veteran of more than 10 combat missions was shot down over Tunisia, in North Africa. His plane and body were never found.

As the disabled P-38 could not be flown off the beach, "American officers had the guns removed, and the records say the aircraft was salvaged, but it wasn't," Gillespie said. "It was gradually covered with sand, and there it sat for 65 years. With censorship in force and British beaches closed to the public during the war, nobody knew it was there."

It was first spotted by a family enjoying a day at the beach on July 31.

The discovery was stunning news for Robert Elliott, 64, of Blountville, Tenn., the pilot's nephew and only surviving relative. He has spent nearly 30 years trying to learn more about his namesake's career and death.

All he knew of the Wales incident was a one-line entry saying Elliott had "ditched a P-38 and was uninjured."

"So this is just a monumental discovery, and a very emotional thing," said Elliott, an engineering consultant. He said he hopes to be present for the recovery.

Y0RGO
11-14-2007, 04:40 PM
Barvo!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Schwarz.13
11-14-2007, 04:43 PM
Nice! Beats finding a used johnny or a syringe on the beach!

That photo immediately made me think of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iXwzBvdrIY) superb advert...

JG6_Oddball
11-14-2007, 05:53 PM
WOW I hope she is able to be restored, I wonder how many wrecks are yet tobe discoverd in africa?


S!

luftluuver
11-14-2007, 06:45 PM
Had me curious on where Wales Beach is. I see now that it is on a Welsh beach. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nice discovery. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

mortoma
11-14-2007, 06:58 PM
Like, total coolness and stuff..........

Monterey13
11-14-2007, 09:22 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8861033406

Here is the location. Close to Llanbedr WW2 RAF airport near Harlech.
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=52.85545&lon=-4.114723&z=12&l=0&m=h&v=2

Skoshi Tiger
11-14-2007, 11:12 PM
I hope they don't do too much damage to her when they do the recovery.

A while back they recovered a spitfire from the mud flats near Broome, Western Australia.

Before they were allowed to touch her the Airforce was called in to dissable the ordinance that was still in the guns.

Their idea of dissarming it was to strap explosives (small ammount) onto them and blowing them up!

triad773
11-14-2007, 11:39 PM
Cool stuff http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Thanks

whiteladder
11-15-2007, 04:05 AM
Just think there are loads of things waiting to be discovered.

My dad grew up on a farm in Lincolnshire on the edge of the Wash. A German bomber was shot down one night early in the war and crashed on the marsh(which are notoriously dangerous), my grandfather went out onto the marsh and rescued the crew. My dad remembers hiding under his kitchen table watching german aircrew, while my grandmother gave them a cup of tea, waiting for the police to arrive.

When my grandfather took to authorities to the crashsite in the morning the plane had sunk into the mud and had disappeared.

I did some research after my dad had told me this story, which I believe relates to a JU88 that was shot down by a Beaufighter over the Wash, the crew that died of thier injuries were buried in the graveyard at Sutton Bridge, although this is in a pooe state of repair and I have never been able to find the graves.

TgD Thunderbolt56
11-15-2007, 07:48 AM
This is precisely the type of post that keeps me around here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

cawimmer430
11-15-2007, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by whiteladder:
My dad grew up on a farm in Lincolnshire on the edge of the Wash. A German bomber was shot down one night early in the war and crashed on the marsh(which are notoriously dangerous), my grandfather went out onto the marsh and rescued the crew. My dad remembers hiding under his kitchen table watching german aircrew, while my grandmother gave them a cup of tea, waiting for the police to arrive.

That's so awesome that a German aircrew had tea in your grandparents house. I mean, a moment before these guys were trying to bomb a target in the UK and the next thing you know they're sitting there having a cup of tea (and probably relieved that the war is over for them). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Great story. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV
11-15-2007, 08:12 AM
Y`know, i actually thought this was a joke!

A P-38 in Wales, who woulda thought it?

JG52Uther
11-15-2007, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by whiteladder:
My dad grew up on a farm in Lincolnshire on the edge of the Wash. A German bomber was shot down one night early in the war and crashed on the marsh(which are notoriously dangerous), my grandfather went out onto the marsh and rescued the crew. My dad remembers hiding under his kitchen table watching german aircrew, while my grandmother gave them a cup of tea, waiting for the police to arrive.

That's so awesome that a German aircrew had tea in your grandparents house. I mean, a moment before these guys were trying to bomb a target in the UK and the next thing you know they're sitting there having a cup of tea (and probably relieved that the war is over for them). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Great story. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely! that crew was also very lucky.If they had come down over a city there is a good chance that it might not have been so pleasant.

FluffyDucks2
11-15-2007, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Y`know, i actually thought this was a joke!

A P-38 in Wales, who woulda thought it?

Why would it be unusual for a P-38 to be in Wales??
There were many airfields in Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and England that had P-38s on them.

luftluuver
11-15-2007, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Y`know, i actually thought this was a joke!

A P-38 in Wales, who woulda thought it?

Why would it be unusual for a P-38 to be in Wales??
There were many airfields in Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and England that had P-38s on them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>List of bases in Great Britain
http://www.controltowers.co.uk/Alist.htm

SeaFireLIV
11-15-2007, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Y`know, i actually thought this was a joke!

A P-38 in Wales, who woulda thought it?

Why would it be unusual for a P-38 to be in Wales??
There were many airfields in Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and England that had P-38s on them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh. I always thought it was just main England and Scotland. My bad i guess.

Snyde-Dastardly
11-15-2007, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
This is precisely the type of post that keeps me around here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Im tellin ya I dont post often but Im right there with you. I love the fact that theres a group of people that havent forgot about the men and the aircraft of WWII.
God speed
carpe vita
Snyde

Taylortony
11-15-2007, 12:15 PM
Yup. thats the one I told you about a while back....... for a close up see

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/11_02/planepopup1_800x654.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/new...4079&in_page_id=1770 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=494079&in_page_id=1770)

Taylortony
11-15-2007, 12:30 PM
Lost P-38 found on Wales Beach

Incidentaly they do say they want help to recover her if any of you are that way inclined.. the overhead photo was taken in true British style... a Helicopter u ask?.... A Light Aircraft then?..... Nope... but from a Camera dangling under a KITE LOL see

http://www.tighar.org/Projects/P38/welshlightning.htm

Trinity_Jay
11-15-2007, 12:55 PM
I have been editing a new book on RAF and USAF loses over the Welsh mountains called Rocks in the Clouds and it's very interesting material. A lot of debris from Lancasters, Wellingtons, Halifaxes, Spitfires and B-17s still remain on the hills today. Also documents the loss of a Do217 and He111 where one crew almost made it back to occupied France when they stole a trainer aircraft, the guards thinking that the German crew were Polish.

Jay

DuxCorvan
11-15-2007, 01:04 PM
A fortunate discovery. I have not many hopes on it being able to be restored, though. Salt, sand and seashore biology aren't the best environment for metal preservation, you know. Looks somewhat corroded. Anyway, it deserves to be recovered and exhibited like the piece of history it is -even in that state!

Taylortony
11-15-2007, 01:28 PM
Its been under the sand for 60 years so will be reasonably well protected.......... Everything is restorable, may end up being just a data plate on a new plane, but that's how the proverbial cookie crumbles in todays world

FluffyDucks2
11-15-2007, 02:02 PM
Gotta disagree with you there TT, as someone that has over 30 years experience of diving and working on shipwrecks of all descriptions, I would say that for the most part corrosion will have seriously weakened most of this aircraft. At the minute there will be a thick crust of concretion over everything, when the concretion is cleaned off the structure below will be seriously weakened/corroded, if not actually gone altogether.

Taylortony
11-15-2007, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
Gotta disagree with you there TT, as someone that has over 30 years experience of diving and working on shipwrecks of all descriptions, I would say that for the most part corrosion will have seriously weakened most of this aircraft. At the minute there will be a thick crust of concretion over everything, when the concretion is cleaned off the structure below will be seriously weakened/corroded, if not actually gone altogether.

Will bow to your experience, That's steel though, this is Aluminium, what I am saying is it may well be a pile of corroded garbage, but they will simply replace with new till it's a go'er or standing on its own sticks.........

FluffyDucks2
11-15-2007, 05:58 PM
Concretion happens to EVERYTHING in a marine environment, with something like aluminium it tends to corrode as well as "concrete", I'm pretty sure for the most part it will be like tin foil by now unfortunately. Of course fresh water would be a different story...

NAFP_supah
11-16-2007, 04:55 AM
Well most restaurations are actually 99,99% rebuilds anyway, there is not such thing as an authentic flying warbird. Even if its just the controll column that gets reused it will still happily be called a warbird.

FluffyDucks2
11-16-2007, 05:47 AM
This article will give an idea of whats involved:


http://www.museum.wa.gov.au/collections/maritime/march/...angels/thesites.html (http://www.museum.wa.gov.au/collections/maritime/march/fallenangels/thesites.html)

Some really interesting stuff at that site http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MadBadVlad
11-16-2007, 07:02 AM
As someone who is directly involved with this project (I am one of the regional archaeological curators in Wales) I thought it would be worth squashing some of the early rumours now before they get out of control.

The plane is in remarkably good condition. There is very little concretion due to the fact that it has been preserved in a rather muddy sand for 65 years and has only recently been washed out and revealed. The marine growth you can see in the aerial photo is about 3-4 months worth. On small areas of the wings where it has been tested the concretion rubs off to reveal a perfectly preserved metal skin with only some very minor corrosion holes along the edge of the control surfaces.

The plane is in a nose up attitude so the tail is still buried. Where you can feel back along the booms the metal skin feels intact and is not pitted by corrosion. Of course we have no way of knowing what the buried portion of the plane is like, but if anything that will be even better preserved than the exposed parts.

The engine covers and gun compartment covers were probably removed just after the crash and may be lying buried in the surrounding mud. The guns were removed at the time of the crash. The cockpit cover was damaged post crash, possibly to lower the planes profile in the water so that it was not a hazard, or seen by passers by. The upper half of the tail fins may similarly have been sawn off to reduce the aircrafts profile in the water. The cockpit interior feels substantially intact. I could feel switches, knobs and buttons in the right places and in a non-corroded state.

One prop is in-situ although a collector/looter in the 1980's sawed off one of the prop blades http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The other prop is missing, may have been sheared off in the crash and could be preserved nearby.

There is no intention to restore this plane to flying condition. It will be preserved as it is either at the Imperial War Museum, Duxford or the RAF Museum, Hendon.

The recovery is likely to take place next Spring, but much specialist advice and funding is still being sought for this.

The precise location of the plane on the beach is being held back to prevent looters from stripping the plane. We would all very much appreciate your co-operation and understanding in not revealing the precise location. Everyone will be welcome to attend the recovery and private visits may be arranged with project members closer to the recovery date. The wreck site is in constant surveillance by local authority staff, police and project members.

FluffyDucks2
11-16-2007, 07:31 AM
Sounds like the mud/sand has done a good job of protecting it from concretion/corrosion, I presume it has been in quite shallow water with strong tidal flow?
Of course the real problems with corrosion will begin once the aircraft is removed from its present location. The link I posted has some really interesting projects on electrolytic stabilisation
treatments to reverse/arrest corrosion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Monterey13
11-16-2007, 08:47 AM
If this thing was just discovered this year, where do you get the information that someone cut off a prop blade in the '80's? Is this something you just found out from a witness or what? Tell us more.

MadBadVlad
11-16-2007, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
Sounds like the mud/sand has done a good job of protecting it from concretion/corrosion, I presume it has been in quite shallow water with strong tidal flow?
Of course the real problems with corrosion will begin once the aircraft is removed from its present location. The link I posted has some really interesting projects on electrolytic stabilisation
treatments to reverse/arrest corrosion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hi Sean

Yes it is between high and low water and bedded down in a shallow tidal channel. It has probably been revealed and then covered over again many times since it crashed. It has almost certainly been seen by other people before it was fully revealed again this autumn, but a lot of people probably thought it was the jindivik drone which is known to have crashed in the area.

The RAF Museum and Imperial War Museum are looking at various conservation methods to determine which is appropriate, including electrolysis methods.

A P40 was recently recovered off Anzio in much the same sort of conditions and is now on display as found after very successful conservation.

MadBadVlad
11-16-2007, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Monterey13:
If this thing was just discovered this year, where do you get the information that someone cut off a prop blade in the '80's? Is this something you just found out from a witness or what? Tell us more.

Hi Monterey

Yes, I was told this by one of the other people involved. I think it appeared in Flypast magazine in the 80's. Whether the person who sawed the tip off actually realised what he had got is another matter. The blade tip is all that would have been visible above water so they may well have hacked it off without realising exactly what type of plane it was or knowing anything about its history.

Friendly_flyer
11-16-2007, 11:59 AM
Thanks for the head-up MadBadVlad!

I am pleased to hear it will be preserved as it is. While newly painted, shiny and new looking planes have their attraction, I think old planes shown as they are found are a lot more interesting to watch.

johnbn
11-16-2007, 12:11 PM
I've been reading these forums for a couple of years now and I've come to realise that a lot of posters here are experts on absolutely everything!!!!

I'm totaly overwhelmed by the vast amount of definate, undeniable, absolute expert knowledge available on this forum, about any subject you care to mention, and I will continue to visit this forum to keep myself well informed!!!

Some of you guys should be on Mastermind!!

BTW I could have posted this just about on any thread in this forum you care to mention, it's just chance that it happens to be this one.

I believe this is true whichever way you take it!

LOL http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FluffyDucks2
11-16-2007, 01:37 PM
Now you're just taking the piss... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Monterey13
11-16-2007, 03:17 PM
I guess my question is... If the guy sawed it off and it made it in a magazine article way back in the '80's, then the location was apparently known. Why wait until now to try to salvage it. Why not back then?

Platypus_1.JaVA
11-16-2007, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
WWII P-38 Fighter Discovered in Wales

http://www.airforcetimes.com/xml/news/2007/11/ap_lostp38_071114/071114_p38_800_287.jpg


Based on its serial number and other records, "the fighter is arguably the oldest P-38 in existence, and the oldest surviving 8th Air Force combat aircraft of any type,"

Yeah, there is not much 'excisting' of this aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

crashkid3
11-16-2007, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
WWII P-38 Fighter Discovered in Wales

http://www.airforcetimes.com/xml/news/2007/11/ap_lostp38_071114/071114_p38_800_287.jpg

By RICHARD PYLE, AP
1 hour ago
NEW YORK "
Sixty-five years after an American P-38 fighter plane ran out of gas and crash-landed on a beach in Wales, the long-forgotten World War II relic has emerged from the surf and sand where it lay buried.

Beach strollers, sunbathers and swimmers often frolicked within a few yards of the aircraft, unaware of its existence until last summer, when unusual weather caused the sand to shift and erode.

The revelation of the Lockheed "Lightning" fighter, with its distinctive twin-boom design, has stirred interest in British aviation circles and among officials of the country's aircraft museums, ready to reclaim another artifact from history's greatest armed conflict.

Based on its serial number and other records, "the fighter is arguably the oldest P-38 in existence, and the oldest surviving 8th Air Force combat aircraft of any type," said Ric Gillespie, who heads a U.S.-based nonprofit group dedicated to preserving historic aircraft. "In that respect it's a major find, of exceptional interest to British and American aviation historians."

Gillespie finds romance as well as historic significance in the discovery of the aircraft, long forgotten by the U.S. government.

"It's sort of like `Brigadoon,' the mythical Scottish village that appears and disappears," he said. "Although the Welsh aren't too happy about that analogy _ they have some famous legends of their own."

Gillespie's organization, the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery, learned of the plane's existence in September from a British air history enthusiast and sent a team to survey the site last month. The group plans to collaborate with British museum experts in recovering the fragile but nearly intact aircraft next spring.

The Imperial War Museum Duxford and the Royal Air Force Museum are among the institutions expressing interest.

"The difficult part is to keep such a dramatic discovery secret. Looting of historic wrecks, aircraft or ships, is a major problem, in Britain as it is worldwide," Gillespie said.

British aviation publications have been circumspect about disclosing the exact location, and local Welsh authorities have agreed to keep the plane under surveillance whenever it is exposed by the tides of the Irish Sea, he said. For now, the aircraft is again buried under sand.

Officially, the U.S. Air Force considers any aircraft lost before Nov. 19, 1961 _ when a fire destroyed many records _ as "formally abandoned," and has an interest in such cases only if human remains are involved.

The twin-engine P-38, a radical design conceived by Lockheed design genius Clarence "Kelly" Johnson in the late 1930s, became one of the war's most successful fighter planes, serving in Europe and the Pacific. About 10,000 of the planes were built, and about 32 complete or partial airframes are believed to still exist, perhaps 10 in flying condition.

Another P-38, part of a "lost squadron" of warplanes marooned by bad weather in Greenland while being flown to Europe in 1942, was recovered and extensively restored with new parts. Dubbed "Glacier Girl," its attempt to complete the flight to Britain earlier this year was thwarted by mechanical problems.

The Wales Lightning, built in 1941, reached Britain in early 1942 and flew combat missions along the Dutch-Belgian coast.

Second Lt. Robert F. "Fred" Elliott, 24, of Rich Square, N.C., was on a gunnery practice mission on Sept. 27, 1942, when a fuel supply error forced him to make an emergency landing on the nearest suitable place _ the Welsh beach.

His belly landing in shallow water sheared off a wingtip, but Elliott escaped unhurt. Less than three months later, the veteran of more than 10 combat missions was shot down over Tunisia, in North Africa. His plane and body were never found.

As the disabled P-38 could not be flown off the beach, "American officers had the guns removed, and the records say the aircraft was salvaged, but it wasn't," Gillespie said. "It was gradually covered with sand, and there it sat for 65 years. With censorship in force and British beaches closed to the public during the war, nobody knew it was there."

It was first spotted by a family enjoying a day at the beach on July 31.

The discovery was stunning news for Robert Elliott, 64, of Blountville, Tenn., the pilot's nephew and only surviving relative. He has spent nearly 30 years trying to learn more about his namesake's career and death.

All he knew of the Wales incident was a one-line entry saying Elliott had "ditched a P-38 and was uninjured."

"So this is just a monumental discovery, and a very emotional thing," said Elliott, an engineering consultant. He said he hopes to be present for the recovery. Great Job http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gifWhat's the URL to yuor signature. I cant get mine to load. Do we put it in a diffrent folder than in drive C?

crashkid3
11-16-2007, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by whiteladder:
Just think there are loads of things waiting to be discovered.

My dad grew up on a farm in Lincolnshire on the edge of the Wash. A German bomber was shot down one night early in the war and crashed on the marsh(which are notoriously dangerous), my grandfather went out onto the marsh and rescued the crew. My dad remembers hiding under his kitchen table watching german aircrew, while my grandmother gave them a cup of tea, waiting for the police to arrive.

When my grandfather took to authorities to the crashsite in the morning the plane had sunk into the mud and had disappeared.

I did some research after my dad had told me this story, which I believe relates to a JU88 that was shot down by a Beaufighter over the Wash, the crew that died of thier injuries were buried in the graveyard at Sutton Bridge, although this is in a pooe state of repair and I have never been able to find the graves. Very interesting. How do u create a signature. (I have a really good pic edited and ready to be shown but I cant load it).

MadBadVlad
11-16-2007, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Monterey13:
I guess my question is... If the guy sawed it off and it made it in a magazine article way back in the '80's, then the location was apparently known. Why wait until now to try to salvage it. Why not back then?

No idea really, I guess he just didn't know the significance of what he had found and not having seen the Flypast item I cannot comment on how they presented it.

What really matters in any case is that at last the wreck has been recognised for what it is and that it will be recovered, conserved and presented to the public for all to see, not left to rot in the sea.

Taylortony
11-16-2007, 05:03 PM
Now how about that corsair? just off the coast of wales http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ok in a loch in Ireland http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but then it is just off the coast of wales http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

for more and a recentish picture from the air see

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236012&highlight=corsair+wreck

MadBadVlad
11-17-2007, 03:19 AM
Looks interesting, but clearly in a considerably worse state than the P-38. There is obviously a lot of other stuff out there in the Irish mud too.

Early indications are that the conservation of the P-38 will take two years and cost approx 100,000. Conservation would be completed by RAF Museum staff and specialists, probably at Cosford. There will be a chance for eveyone to get involved in the project by donating towards the costs of recovery and conservation.

It looks like transport of the P-38 from the beach to the conservation location will be achieved by carefully removing the tail booms then transporting the wings and central gondola in one piece on a low loader lorry with the tail sections on another.

Members of the pilots family have been contacted and will be present at the recovery. His uncle had been searching for information on Robert Elliot for a long time and was completely unaware that his plane may have survived the training crash. Robert Elliot remains missing in action though as he was shot down in North Africa in 1942, possibly crashing into the Bizerte lakes.

Th project team are forging close links with the Glacier Girl team as the planes are practically sisters, just a few serial numbers apart and both flew over on the Bolero missions.

One immediate problem is that the P-38 is lying in a protected marine environment and the Countryside Council for Wales require the fuel and oil that is still onboard to be removed prior to recovery. If the fuel caps can be removed this might not be too difficult, otherwise a well placed hole will need to be drilled into the airframe to get the fuel out.

Will keep you all updated as the project progresses.

FluffyDucks2
11-17-2007, 05:29 AM
Sounds even better than I had possibly hoped, TBH I was expecting that it would virtually be held together by the concretion only and would disintegrate if moved.
TT thanks for that link m8...I quite often have the chance to fly low level in a chopper over Lough Neagh and the approaches to Aldergrove and the former Langford Lodge airbase no-one has mentioned crashed aircraft still being in the area before. From now on I will be scouring that area very carefully http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
There were an AWFUL LOT of WWII based in the area including as far as I know B17,B25,Lancasters, Stirling, and many, many other aircraft. I would be interesting to see how many ditched in the Lough on finals, the Lough itself (largest enclosed freshwater lake in the British Isles)is shallow and flat with a nice muddy/sandy bottom perfect for plane preservation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Link to Langford Lodge website:
http://dnausers.d-n-a.net/dnetrAzQ/lang1.htm

I'm staggered by the number of US units that were based there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It appears that Lockheed had a major repair and maintenance facility there as well some of the pictures on that site are simply wonderful, P38s, B17s, B25s , and pictures of a Wildcat being removed from another Lough as well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
http://dnausers.d-n-a.net/dnetrAzQ/annehowe.jpg

I have found only this info on the B17 Anne Howe Two:
http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/m_111579/tm.htm


A wildcat being removed from a Lough in Northern Ireland by a Lynx helicopter:

http://dnausers.d-n-a.net/dnetrAzQ/LIFT2.JPG

FluffyDucks2
11-17-2007, 06:26 AM
Found some more interesting stuff http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Although intended to house No. 23 Maintenance Unit of the RAF, Langford Lodge was handed over to the Americans as a depot to repair and service USAAF aircraft. The depot was run by the Lockheed Overseas Corporation which employed some 2,600 civilians. It opened on 15 August 1942.

Lockheed P-38 Lightning fighters, freighted by sea to Belfast, were taken to Langford Lodge for testing before issue to squadrons. Republic P-47 Thunderbolts were also tested, although these had usually been flown in. Brewster Bermuda bombers for the RAF were assembled at Langford which also carried out modifications on B-24 Liberator bombers.

In 1943 Langford Lodge was redesignated 3rd Base Air Depot (BAD) and also started modification work on Boeing B-17s as well as completing Bell P-39 Airacobras. The BAD closed on 7 August 1944 but Langford Lodge remained open as an experimental station and for storage.

In its two-year existence the base had re-assembled or modified 3,250 planes, serviced another 11,000 and overhauled almost half a million components. Its control tower included the first use in the UK of angled windows to reduce reflections."

This old base is literally a hop and a skip from my home(by chopper 10 mins max) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

More snippets:
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/sum41/crashes/p38/p38.htm

FluffyDucks2
11-17-2007, 06:52 AM
Crikey!, I can't believe how much of this local history is on the net, this is a link with a direct bearing on the sinking of the Bismarck including the then secret involvement of a US pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

http://www.irelandseye.com/aarticles/history/events/worldwar/secret.shtm

hkg36sd
11-17-2007, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
Nice! Beats finding a used johnny or a syringe on the beach!

That photo immediately made me think of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iXwzBvdrIY) superb advert...

Dang!! any way of dloading the commercial in higher res? deffinitely a keeper!

FluffyDucks2
11-18-2007, 05:20 AM
I'm bumping this because I'm sure the vast majority of people here had no idea(me included) how large a US airforce presence there was in Northern Ireland during WWII. Some of the pictures are amazing, and the input of the Catalinas and Sunderlands into the Atlantic War is maybe forgotten sometimes. To see P38s and Thunderbolts on bases that are literally half an hours drive from my home is incredible http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Another interesting snippet about P38s:

"By 1944 however, Langford Lodge had cone to specialise
in experimental engineering while Burtonwood and Warton concentrated on proven
modifications, a reflection of their much greater size. Them was a little-publicised
instance of this during May 1944 when Lockheed's Chief Test Pilot, the California-based Tony
LeVier was at Langford Lodge assisting the Experimental Engineering Section with tests which
succeeded in producing a 'fix' for the Allison engines which had been the cause of
persistent problems in P-38 Lightnings at high power settings at moderate to high altitudes.
In the process, as LeVier recalled in an article published only months before his death in
February 1998, the depot's instrument specialist effectively designed the world's first Mach
meter, by adopting a dual manifold pressure indicator to warn pilots when the aircraft's
speed was approaching its critical Mach number."


From this site:

http://dnausers.d-n-a.net/dnetrAzQ/lang1.htm

MadBadVlad
11-18-2007, 06:10 AM
It would be worth moving the Irish stuff into its own thread if you want to raise its profile as it is off-topic in here.

To get back on topic here is the link to the TIGHAR webpages relating to the Harlech P-38 Maid of Harlech P-38 Project (http://www.tighar.org/Projects/P38/welshlightning.htm) There are button links at the bottom of the main page to other info. There is a particlarly interesting page on the pilot and some good info. on the last mission he flew.

BaldieJr
11-18-2007, 01:42 PM
it should be recycled

i'm sorry i don't share your romanticism for old war equipment. i'm also sorry that my opinion can be made public as i know thats a real chore for some.

DuxCorvan
11-18-2007, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
it should be recycled


Agree. In fact, I think the same about burials: a waste of good meat and proteins, when there's so much hunger out there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Taylortony
11-18-2007, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
it should be recycled


Agree. In fact, I think the same about burials: a waste of good meat and proteins, when there's so much hunger out there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep we could call it something to reflect its green recycled culture. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

hmmmm

Ok greens a good word to get it over as recycling par excellence and seeming the Spitfire that famous bird we all love originated on the Solent, lets call it

Solent Green

Now where have i heard that one before? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

FluffyDucks2
11-19-2007, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by MadBadVlad:
It would be worth moving the Irish stuff into its own thread if you want to raise its profile as it is off-topic in here.

To get back on topic here is the link to the TIGHAR webpages relating to the Harlech P-38 Maid of Harlech P-38 Project (http://www.tighar.org/Projects/P38/welshlightning.htm) There are button links at the bottom of the main page to other info. There is a particlarly interesting page on the pilot and some good info. on the last mission he flew.

Its not Irish stuff, its British http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

MadBadVlad
11-19-2007, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MadBadVlad:
It would be worth moving the Irish stuff into its own thread if you want to raise its profile as it is off-topic in here.

To get back on topic here is the link to the TIGHAR webpages relating to the Harlech P-38 Maid of Harlech P-38 Project (http://www.tighar.org/Projects/P38/welshlightning.htm) There are button links at the bottom of the main page to other info. There is a particlarly interesting page on the pilot and some good info. on the last mission he flew.

Its not Irish stuff, its British http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But still off topic in this thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif