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XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 12:59 AM
Ok, I'm bound to get trolls in this thread, but that can't be helped.
From the latest post by Matt Wagner, it seems that certain 3rd part aircraft such as the Ho-229 by Gibbage, the P-80, also by Gibbage and others will not be in the free add-on. Oleg had stated that there will be an initial free add-on and then a paid one. Does this mean that there will be 3rd party aircraft in the paid add-on? Ethically speaking, this would be morally incorrect, because I'm fairly certain that the 3rd part modellers created thier models for the love of the game rather than to help UBI out. In particular, consider Gibbage's case. He is ready to take donations to make the PBY Catelina flyable. If the PBY is to be released in a paid for add-on, then why doesn't Oleg make a generous donation to Gibbage in appreciation of his fine work? I'm trying to point out that the entire issue of releasing free 3rd party material in a paid for add-on is morally shaky ground, and should be treaded on carefuly by UBI. It would appear safest to release all the 3rd party models in a free add-on of only the aircraft and IanBoys' land objects, and save original 1C:Maddox creations for the paid add-on. Personally, if UBI does decide to make a $40 add-on availabe, I'm fairly certain I shall be buying it.

http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 12:59 AM
Ok, I'm bound to get trolls in this thread, but that can't be helped.
From the latest post by Matt Wagner, it seems that certain 3rd part aircraft such as the Ho-229 by Gibbage, the P-80, also by Gibbage and others will not be in the free add-on. Oleg had stated that there will be an initial free add-on and then a paid one. Does this mean that there will be 3rd party aircraft in the paid add-on? Ethically speaking, this would be morally incorrect, because I'm fairly certain that the 3rd part modellers created thier models for the love of the game rather than to help UBI out. In particular, consider Gibbage's case. He is ready to take donations to make the PBY Catelina flyable. If the PBY is to be released in a paid for add-on, then why doesn't Oleg make a generous donation to Gibbage in appreciation of his fine work? I'm trying to point out that the entire issue of releasing free 3rd party material in a paid for add-on is morally shaky ground, and should be treaded on carefuly by UBI. It would appear safest to release all the 3rd party models in a free add-on of only the aircraft and IanBoys' land objects, and save original 1C:Maddox creations for the paid add-on. Personally, if UBI does decide to make a $40 add-on availabe, I'm fairly certain I shall be buying it.

http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 01:07 AM
yeah, the way gibbage speaks they are definatly charging for the 3rd party addons ubi will get money and the people who did most of the work will get a small ammount. Following il2center for so long i thought the modelers did it for the love of the game like the freeware cfs2 designers but guess not

As much as I hate it I like most people would buy it for sure.

But im not getting bLO-MAC or BATTLEFIELD COMMAND http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 01:24 AM
alright if i ever saw an addon that costs me $40 DOLLARS, aint no way i'd get that, i give all my respect to the guys that make the aircraft in this game, and i think they deserve to be paid for their work, but i aint never seen an addon that cost 40 dollars, 20 dollars makes sense. But the only way i would get an add on is if it had a lot more aircraft in it. THats the whole point of addons and expansion sets, is to get a lot more. And if the free add on only has 3 planes, the paid for better have a flyable B-27 and B-25 in it.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 01:32 AM
Most intresting way to look at it is this.

The modellers of flyable aircraft will have to PAY to get to 'fly' their own work that ubisoft took freely to sell for profit.

So not only do they fork over a good portion of their life, they have to pay whatever to get to use it and ubisoft makes profit off of it to boot.

Life's funny ain't it.

http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 01:42 AM
Cragger wrote:

- So not only do they fork over a good portion of
- their life, they have to pay whatever to get to use
- it and ubisoft makes profit off of it to boot.

You really beleive that?

http://mysite.freeserve.com/jjffjj/images/0-picture.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 01:49 AM
I feel that Oleg is under no obligation to release a free add-on. I would not fault him for choosing to charge a reasonable fee for the release of work done by others. As a business, he has costs associated with the incorporation of that free labor. In other words, it is costing him money to get this free stuff, verify that it works properly and then distribute it. He is in business to make money, not give stuff away.

Also, keep in mind that the people who decided to do all of this work for free knew that they would likely get little more than their name in the credits for all of their work. They were the ones who wanted to see a particular airplane fly in the game and were willing to donate their time to do it.

These people do deserve our thanks and gratitude. I will take this opportunity to say a very hearty thankyou to all the people who have or are creating aircraft and skins for the community.

Now so that you don't think I am kissing up to Oleg and Ubi Soft, I will say that the customer service aspect of the support of this game by Oleg and Ubi Soft has been less than perfect. Specifically the release of information about updates, patches and add-ons has been very poor in my opinion. Of course, I always remind myself that all of these things have been free up to this point.

One final note. From a technical aspect, the game amazes me almost every time I play it. The wide variety of aircraft and scenarios that can be created make the game very enjoyable. Therefore, I would also pay for an add-on that incorporates all of the aircraft I have seen in the development update.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:05 AM
SuspectSquirrel wrote:
-
- You really beleive that?
-
<img
- src="http://mysite.freeserve.com/jjffjj/images/0-p
- icture.gif">
-

You'd have to specify which part if your looking for a responce.

http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:06 AM
If we are to pay for the add-on with models done by 3rd party I would seriously hope that they would reap benefit of that. I will probably buy it anyway, but if they recieved no money from it, I would definately contribute some money to them some way. That is the only fair thing to do.
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center> <center> www.361stvfg.com</center> (http://www.361stvfg.com</center>)
<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:07 AM
A free copy of the addon that includes their work would be fair enough by me.

But the last time when things where fair I was whole lot younger.

http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

Message Edited on 09/12/0308:09PM by Cragger

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:09 AM
Hey, you did pay $40 for FB didn't you? :-)



http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:09 AM
I will buy LO:MAC, but it is very unlikely that I will buy any addons for FB that are based on 3rd party work. The reason is ubisoft selling something that somebody else made for free just doesn't sit well with me.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Stab.I/JG1Death at HL, Maj_Death at Ubi.com

At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:21 AM
The serial modellers may get their addon for free. I dunno. Also, doing the modelling may be a way to get job possibilities....I dunno.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
"Author": brtnstrns
-- alright if i ever saw an addon that costs me $40
-- DOLLARS, aint no way i'd get that,


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif ---> http://www.nvidia.com/page/products.html


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif -- -> http://www.radeon.com/


We see what happened to the 20$ you are missing.

HAHAHA get a Jaton Trident and you can buy ten (10) FB addon CDs http://www.jaton.com

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:31 AM
Keep your shirts on dudes. Oleg is also planning to give modellers a small fee for the jobs they do, maybe he allready did.


His own words


Does this help the case a bit? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/templates/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif (http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index.php)

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:42 AM
If thats so then its so. I'd never expect them to be getting royalties or anything. Devleopers hardly see enough cash from the box sales as it is.

http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:56 AM
Here's another little point. If I had the capabilities to make a 3D model, I'd like to be able to distribute it for free on the forums after Oleg has gone through the model and created an FM for it. I would not like to think that some poor kid can't fly my plane just because his Dad thinks it isn't worthwhile spending the money on the add-on my model would have been distributed under otherwise.

http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:58 AM
The negotiations involved in the compensation for services rendered is irrelevant to me. The ability to model and create the objects used in FB requires an acuity that (hopefully) would be accompanied by some common sense. Therefore, I submit that if a modeler wanted to be paid, it is already decided.

I am an educated consumer that uses my "one vote" in many ways. If I were unhappy with a product or had proof that there were unfair business practices, I certainly would boycott said company and/or product by not purchasing it.

This community is informed enough (again, hopefully) to be aware of anything that remotely resembles unfair practice. I personally haven't seen it and WILL buy an add-on if required. Eagerly too, I might add.




http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/_uimages/p47atm.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 03:01 AM
Oleg is also planning to give modellers a small fee for the jobs they do, maybe he allready did

Really? Time to get on the horn to Oleg about my cheque /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I am now accepting donations to buy the smilies a new home.
http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb06894.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb57471.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb11726.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb75733.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb80477.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb64472.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb59442.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb80347.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb73057.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb48642.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb24962.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb72600.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb72327.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb10373.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb70750.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 03:13 AM
Below is a Classic from USA politics, and probably from everywhere else too...

UR_Spinne spinned::
-- I would not like to think that some poor kid can't fly
-- my plane just because his Dad thinks it isn't worthwhile
-- spending the money on the add-on my model would have
-- been distributed under otherwise.



UBI, Oleg....please, think of the Children and give us *free* addon CD.


Dad wants FREE addon CD for FB. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



Anybody see that commercial (USA) recently, with the two parents eagerly watching a ~huge~ wall high definition TV, and they tell their bored daughter that they bought it for her, and she can get her braces next year. Forgot the brand name of TV they were advertising.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 05:05 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- UBI, Oleg....please, think of the Children
- and give us *free* addon CD.

Lol- Simpsons


<Center>
<table>
<tr>
<TD align="center">
<font color="WHITE">"If one must kill or be killed. It must be done with dignity" (The famous words of Adolf Galland)</font>
</TD>
</TR>
<tr>
<TD align="center">
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</tr>
</TD>
<tr>
<TD>
<center><font color="white">***F/A-22 Raptor***</font></center>
</TD>
</TR>
</table>
</CENTER>

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 05:14 AM
In order for modellers to recieve compensation for their work, they must own a commercial license to 3D Studio MAX. Such a license cost around $3000 USD last time I checked. The 3D models used in this game do not require the level of detail or complexity needed to charge more than about a third of that, and that's only if they are accepted.

If the modeller does not charge for their models, then they are only required to pay about $300 USD for the student version. As long as you do not use the works for profit, the Student license suffices. Thus, it is cheaper for the modellers to *not* charge for their work, or recieve any sort of compensation, other than artistic recognition.

The former case requires an investment of at least $3000 for a likely compensation of only around a maximum of $2000, for a net loss of over $1000.

The latter case only requires a total investment of $300, and does provide references if the artist wishes to pursue work in that field. Net loss is only around $300.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 06:04 AM
Ok. Let me settle this. Currently a pay add-on featuring a lot of 3rd party work is a possibility. Also, small free add-ons are also a possibility. Ubi and Oleg will announce it soon.

IF there is a pay add-on, then the 3rd party modelers get paid for there contributions. THATS GOOD FOR US!!! If the PBY does go into a pay add-on, I will return the money that was donated to anyone who wants it.

There are many many many things I wish I could tell everyone, but I cant. I think everyone here will be very happy with what Oleg has in store for us all. Just give him time to settle things.

Gib

I am now accepting donations to help get the PBY flyable.

<center><form action="https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr" method="post">
<input type="hidden" name="cmd" value="_xclick">
<input type="hidden" name="business" value="gibbage@lycos.com">
<input type="hidden" name="item_name" value="Gibbages IL2; FB PBY Catalina Fund">
<input type="hidden" name="no_note" value="1">
<input type="hidden" name="currency_code" value="USD">
<input type="hidden" name="tax" value="0">
<input type="image" src="http://gibbageart.havagame.com/donations.gif" border="0" name="submit" alt="Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure!">
</form></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 06:08 AM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- -
- There are many many many things I wish I could tell
- everyone, but I cant. I think everyone here will be
- very happy with what Oleg has in store for us all.
- Just give him time to settle things.

Man,Gib,you've got me drooling.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 06:09 AM
Hey, it's Oleg.

That's good enough for me.

As long as any add ons don't cost more than $15-$20 US, I won't hesitate to get them.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 06:16 AM
Good to hear Gibbage. It was a bit of a morality issue with me, because so many have spent such a large amount of time creating these models and their 5 levels of LOD, their cockpit models, damage models.

The appearance gave was ubisoft was 'hording' them to make near free profit off of them do to the miniscule listing in the nearest free addon.

Personally I wouldn't mind if a model I created was included for no profit to myself if that was the only way it could get in, I'd be happy it was accepted. But some have made several models with their respective cockpits being treated that way things appeared left a bad taste.

http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

Message Edited on 09/13/0312:26AM by Cragger

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 07:16 AM
I have said many time in many threads that IF there is a pay add-on, then the modelers would get paid. I personally would LOVE a pay add-on since I would have nearly 5 models in it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ITs up to Ubi if they wish to publish it, and the comunity if they wish to purchase it. But considering the add-on would have nealy 20 new aircraft from 3rd party and some new maps, I think everyone here would agree 19.95 would be acceptable to support our modelers. Dont you?

Gib

Cragger wrote:
- Good to hear Gibbage. It was a bit of a morality
- issue with me, because so many have spent such a
- large amount of time creating these models and their
- 5 levels of LOD, their cockpit models, damage
- models.
-
- The appearance gave was ubisoft was 'hording' them
- to make near free profit off of them do to the
- miniscule listing in the nearest free addon.
-
- Personally I wouldn't mind if a model I created was
- included for no profit to myself if that was the
- only way it could get in, I'd be happy it was
- accepted. But some have made several models with
- their respective cockpits being treated that way
- things appeared left a bad taste.
-
- <img
- src="http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig
- .jpg">
-
- About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane.
- I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake."
- -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight
-
- Message Edited on 09/13/03 12:26AM by Cragger



I am now accepting donations to help get the PBY flyable.

<center><form action="https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr" method="post">
<input type="hidden" name="cmd" value="_xclick">
<input type="hidden" name="business" value="gibbage@lycos.com">
<input type="hidden" name="item_name" value="Gibbages IL2; FB PBY Catalina Fund">
<input type="hidden" name="no_note" value="1">
<input type="hidden" name="currency_code" value="USD">
<input type="hidden" name="tax" value="0">
<input type="image" src="http://gibbageart.havagame.com/donations.gif" border="0" name="submit" alt="Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure!">
</form></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 07:34 AM
I think you guys are missing the point.

Why should they charge for something that would make a product stronger? And making there product even MORE attractive.

If not, more ppl would still get FB, because they know there are some really cool planes that are available. for free?

Also.. imagine the online gaming?
How will it be possible to play online, when one player has a addon that he has paid for,.. and another.. not having this addon, wont be able to play on that server. Even if they made a sollution for that it would STILL lead to a disinetergration of this strong online community by two teams.

Those who have money to spend on addons

Those who cannot afford them


Imagine how many virtual squadrons that would be disbanded.


Look at Flightsimulator series from MS.
It would NEVER had the popularity (sales) if all addon planes was payware. Never. If you are familiar with FS series, ask yourself: how often do you fly the planes that come with the product?

Conclusion:
If the addon will be payware, they might get some extra income, but its like grasping for hay. It wont give them much. And it would also hurt them.


I rather see they add it for free to make customers feel that it is a "long lasting" product, and in that ENSURE people to maybe spend 20% more money on their next coming simulator.

That would bring them more profit, and same time giving customers a good and reliable and long lasting product.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Now, before answering to this thread. read it again.


/Petter_Gul
CO, Flygflottilj 16
#1 Swedish Virtual Squadron
http://www.f16vs.tk
_________________________

"Slider.... You Stink..."

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 07:39 AM
One big BUMP! I hope UBI takes a look at this thread.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 08:11 AM
Gul, I think you are also missing the ammount of work needed to impliment a 3rd party model. The 3rd parties simply do the artwork, 1C:Maddox games does all of the animations, damage modelling, and flight models, and managing of the flame patrol when people get angry about how their favoriet aircraft is modeled. Making a 3D model isn't that difficult, once you have the necessary data, and a decent knowledge of 3D Studio Max.

Really, the main reason I've had to put the Wildcat on hold is I just can't afford the $500 for a student copy of 3D Studio Max right now. That's the problem with being a student; I'm still partially on my parent's bill so I can't justify that big an external expense.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 08:51 AM
HarryVoyager wrote:
- Gul, I think you are also missing the ammount of
- work needed to impliment a 3rd party model. The 3rd
- parties simply do the artwork, 1C:Maddox games does
- all of the animations, damage modelling, and flight
- models, and managing of the flame patrol when people
- get angry about how their favoriet aircraft is
- modeled. Making a 3D model isn't that difficult,
- once you have the necessary data, and a decent
- knowledge of 3D Studio Max.
-
- Really, the main reason I've had to put the Wildcat
- on hold is I just can't afford the $500 for a
- student copy of 3D Studio Max right now. That's the
- problem with being a student; I'm still partially on
- my parent's bill so I can't justify that big an
- external expense.
-
- Harry Voyager

I do understand the work needed to implement a 3rd party model. Being active in the SFP1 community, I know. But they are a game studio.

Its their job.


They get money for it. This is not a rock band releasing a music album, and letting ppl just buy it, and then not supporting it. When a product is published, they look on how long it will be supported. If you continue to support a product where the costs exceed the income of sales, u have a loss. As long as the income are above costs, you have profit.

Profit however makes it possible to develop new games and marketing for the product.

What I am saying is this:

The money they will earn on this is NOT constructive. The disadvantages are (to me) a lot more obvious than the advantages.

I would rather see that they dont release any more addon for FB, rather than releasing payware addon. It will collapse the strong foundation IL2 stands on.

I really think IL2 is going down in credibility with all these effort on experimental planes, what if-planes etc. That is a waste of development and Maddox time in my opinion.

IL-2 has gone from being a serious simulator featuring war on the eastern front, to a playground for experimental aircraft freaks.

It would really harm if you had to pay for it too, in order to get the planes that really is interesting.

Anyway, time will tell... heaven or hell.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


/Petter_Gul
CO, Flygflottilj 16
#1 Swedish Virtual Squadron
http://www.f16vs.tk
_________________________

"Slider.... You Stink..."

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 08:52 AM
The problem is one thing. It takes Oleg a LOT of money to add aircraft. Yes, the modelers are doing a little bit of the work, but what we do is only 1/3 of the job. 2/3's is up to Oleg's crew. Programming it in is a large task. Flight model, damage model, ai handling and so on.

For CFS3 and FS, MS does not need to do anything to add aircraft into the game. They dont even host the addons! Its all done purely by fans. 100%.

Why did Oleg not use an open program like CFS? Simple.

#1, quality controle. I have seen some really poor models for FS and CFS, and a few good ones.

#2, cheating. Remember CFS2's UFO's? Hurricanes that can huver and fly 800MPH?

#3, time. It would have taken Oleg and his team a LOT of time and money to implament something like G-Max. It cost's something like 75,000$ for licensing G-Max, plus the man hours it would take to program it.

Maddox is a small company, and they simply cant justify that type of expense for unknown gains.

Also, how many pay add-on's are there for CFS and FS? Almost thousands!!! Most of them single aircraft, or a limited spectrum of aircraft. The add-on to FB will be big. A lot bigger then any FS or CFS add-on, and a lot better quality then anything you could ever download off of a free site.

I think an FB pay add-on is a win-win for us all. If Oleg were to release it for free, it would cut his resources for his next venture. Also a free add-on will be short on content since its free. If the pay add-on does well, it will give Oleg more resources to use on his next sim, and it will give us modelers some money for our efforts, and then give us encouragement to do more and better work down the line.

Gib

Petter_Gul wrote:
- I think you guys are missing the point.
-
- Why should they charge for something that would make
- a product stronger? And making there product even
- MORE attractive.
-
- If not, more ppl would still get FB, because they
- know there are some really cool planes that are
- available. for free?
-
- Also.. imagine the online gaming?
- How will it be possible to play online, when one
- player has a addon that he has paid for,.. and
- another.. not having this addon, wont be able to
- play on that server. Even if they made a sollution
- for that it would STILL lead to a disinetergration
- of this strong online community by two teams.
-
- Those who have money to spend on addons
-
- Those who cannot afford them
-
-
- Imagine how many virtual squadrons that would be
- disbanded.
-
-
- Look at Flightsimulator series from MS.
- It would NEVER had the popularity (sales) if all
- addon planes was payware. Never. If you are familiar
- with FS series, ask yourself: how often do you fly
- the planes that come with the product?
-
- Conclusion:
- If the addon will be payware, they might get some
- extra income, but its like grasping for hay. It wont
- give them much. And it would also hurt them.
-
-
- I rather see they add it for free to make customers
- feel that it is a "long lasting" product, and in
- that ENSURE people to maybe spend 20% more money on
- their next coming simulator.
-
- That would bring them more profit, and same time
- giving customers a good and reliable and long
- lasting product.
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- Now, before answering to this thread. read it again.
-
-
-
- /Petter_Gul
- CO, Flygflottilj 16
- #1 Swedish Virtual Squadron
- http://www.f16vs.tk
-
- _________________________
-
- "Slider.... You Stink..."
-
-
-



I am now accepting donations to help get the PBY flyable.

<center><form action="https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr" method="post">
<input type="hidden" name="cmd" value="_xclick">
<input type="hidden" name="business" value="gibbage@lycos.com">
<input type="hidden" name="item_name" value="Gibbages IL2; FB PBY Catalina Fund">
<input type="hidden" name="no_note" value="1">
<input type="hidden" name="currency_code" value="USD">
<input type="hidden" name="tax" value="0">
<input type="image" src="http://gibbageart.havagame.com/donations.gif" border="0" name="submit" alt="Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure!">
</form></center>




I am now accepting donations to help get the PBY flyable.

<center><form action="https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr" method="post">
<input type="hidden" name="cmd" value="_xclick">
<input type="hidden" name="business" value="gibbage@lycos.com">
<input type="hidden" name="item_name" value="Gibbages IL2; FB PBY Catalina Fund">
<input type="hidden" name="no_note" value="1">
<input type="hidden" name="currency_code" value="USD">
<input type="hidden" name="tax" value="0">
<input type="image" src="http://gibbageart.havagame.com/donations.gif" border="0" name="submit" alt="Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure!">
</form></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 08:54 AM
Petter_Gul wrote:
-
- That would bring them more profit, and same time
- giving customers a good and reliable and long
- lasting product.
-
-

Don´t forget the fact: 1C is a company depending on it´s income from selling games.

As I see it, I´d pay for a such addon because of the simple fact that income to 1C(and payment to the plane modelers) is the only factor that in some way guarantee that reliability and long lasting product.

Guys like Gibbage sure deserve the money that comes to them via such payed addon.

We cannot and should not add pressure on 1C and Oleg in this matter to force them to give us all that great work presented in friday updates for free.

About CFS series: That product is crap but still sales a lot of pay for addons. to be able to keep pace with it u sure have to pay a lot of money. And that for a product not comparable with IL-2 series at all!

I happend to owne a copy of CFS 2 and 3. With all the free addons from the community, making a lot of improvement to the cosmetics of that game - It still is crap and dont give near the IL-2 experience of RL flight(I´m not sayin that it´s perfect, but it´s the closest we get).

Online gamin: There are exactly that disintegration present within the online community as it is depending on server settings - not all want to fly with RL settings and vice versa.

Let´s not be cheap and whine for free addon´s, let´s pay for them and help Oleg financially to keep this game rolling.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 09:55 AM
If Gib knows the truth, then I must apologize for all the things I've written in other posts. Just I feel suspicious when money is in. I'd just like FB to develope its full potential, instead of being divided in two or four independent games for commercial reasons, or derive to a simple online game, with no incentives for offliners.

I hope that add-on will be an add-on, not another detached game. And if it is, I hope it will implement the stuff that it is in FB.

Forgive me. I just don't want the family to divide. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -



http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612322300

</span></blockquote></font></td></tr>

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 10:12 AM
Zeus-cat wrote:
- I feel that Oleg is under no obligation to release a
- free add-on. I would not fault him for choosing to
- charge a reasonable fee for the release of work done
- by others. As a business, he has costs associated
- with the incorporation of that free labor. In other
- words, it is costing him money to get this free
- stuff, verify that it works properly and then
- distribute it. He is in business to make money, not
- give stuff away.
-
- Also, keep in mind that the people who decided to do
- all of this work for free knew that they would
- likely get little more than their name in the
- credits for all of their work. They were the ones
- who wanted to see a particular airplane fly in the
- game and were willing to donate their time to do it.
-
-
-
- These people do deserve our thanks and gratitude. I
- will take this opportunity to say a very hearty
- thankyou to all the people who have or are creating
- aircraft and skins for the community.
-
- Now so that you don't think I am kissing up to Oleg
- and Ubi Soft, I will say that the customer service
- aspect of the support of this game by Oleg and Ubi
- Soft has been less than perfect. Specifically the
- release of information about updates, patches and
- add-ons has been very poor in my opinion. Of
- course, I always remind myself that all of these
- things have been free up to this point.
-
- One final note. From a technical aspect, the game
- amazes me almost every time I play it. The wide
- variety of aircraft and scenarios that can be
- created make the game very enjoyable. Therefore, I
- would also pay for an add-on that incorporates all
- of the aircraft I have seen in the development
- update.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - -

Same as Zeus-cat said!



and I also agree with others that Gibbage and other modelers has done a fantastic job and I hope they will
get enough credit for their work and why not a letter of recommendation from oleg and concerned parties.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 10:19 AM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Ok. Let me settle this. Currently a pay add-on
- featuring a lot of 3rd party work is a possibility.
- Also, small free add-ons are also a possibility.
- Ubi and Oleg will announce it soon.
-
- IF there is a pay add-on, then the 3rd party
- modelers get paid for there contributions. THATS
- GOOD FOR US!!! If the PBY does go into a pay
- add-on, I will return the money that was donated to
- anyone who wants it.
-
- There are many many many things I wish I could tell
- everyone, but I cant. I think everyone here will be
- very happy with what Oleg has in store for us all.
- Just give him time to settle things.
-
- Gib
-
You are being honest gib /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/templates/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif (http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index.php)

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 10:26 AM
gibbage they dont have to completely program a new program for each new plane its just adding in numbers like every other sim they already have the ai programming done just each ai plane is given different values most likely for ai, as far as fm it too is just number crunching, i seen fb_3do01.SFS unencrypted http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif secure file system isnt so secure

still i would pay $40 for a whole theater and 10+ flyables but certainly not for 5 flyables ai and a map and 5 new scenery pieces.


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 01:20 PM
I don't have a problem paying...
I do object to people harping on about hypotheticals.
Who knows what will be included and how much will be being charged?
How can we judge if it's a fair price to pay?

I can understand that people feel that the modellers that have contributed should be renumerated, but that is between them and the developers. (If they ain't happy with the deal then they ain't obliged to let their model be used - surely?)

S! Simon.
<center>

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://www.downloadcounter.com/cgi-bin/download.pl?username=James_Jones&account=705).

http://extremeone.4t.com/images/USsig.jpg
<font color="#000000">It's my attitude not my aptitude that determines my altitude.</font></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 01:50 PM
- If they ain't happy with the deal then they ain't obliged to
- let their model be used - surely?)
You would hope so, wouldn't you, but that would depend on the contract entered into when they handed over the model. If Ubi didn't bother to draw up a contract, then ownership of the work would be a legal minefield.

Gib seems to know the score, and he's happy, so I'm happy. BUT isn't there a contradiction betweeen his statement that modellers will be financially recompensed, and HarryVoyager's statement that
"In order for modellers to recieve compensation for their work, they must own a commercial license to 3D Studio MAX. Such a license cost around $3000 USD last time I checked."

Hmmm... I suppose one solution would be for Ubi to buy the 3rd party modellers a commercial licence as part of their reward package.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:04 PM
ill bet a lot of pepole will download the addon from P2P
programs/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

---------------------------------------
A to the K to 4 to the 7 little
devils dont go heaven Freedom got a AK
---------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 02:13 PM
Gibbage,

Someone as smart as you wouldn't let someone make money from their work without some reasonable payment, and anyone that has seen your work should know that. Someone as smart as Oleg wouldn't expect it of you. I figure that you are a big boy, and quite able to take care of yourself (as long as you aren't getting caught on the internet, looking up planes to model for FB while at work). I think that it is cool that everyone wants to make sure that you get paid if your work is released commercially, but I am simply astounded that you have had to explain all this to everyone. Good work deserves compensation for the time that is put into it, and I just thought that it went without saying that if we have to pay for your work, that you will get something for it, but, hey . . .


I will gladly pay for it. It's quality stuff.


Tsisqua

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 03:47 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:

-i seen fb_3do01.SFS
- unencrypted /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif secure file system isnt so secure



Explain this please /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



<center>http://www.geocities.com/dangdenge2004/arau.txt



|TAO|

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 04:24 PM
Maj_Death wrote:
- But it is very unlikely that I
- will buy any addons for FB that are based on 3rd
- party work. The reason is ubisoft selling something
- that somebody else made for free just doesn't sit
- well with me.
-

I could not agree you more..

<center>[i]1mg to me and ur down /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif [i]</center>

<center>-='EverdarK<|>Tracer'=-</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 05:02 PM
thx gib.both you and peter make some good points.i guess
time will tell.

After it was refeuled i climbed in.With many manipulations the mechcanics started the turbines.I followed their actions with the greatest of interest.The first one started quite easily.the second caught fire.In no time the whole engine was on fire.Luckily as a fighter pilot i was used to getting quickly out of the cockpit.The fire was quickly put out.The second plane caused no trouble - Adolf Galland (first time in a ME262)

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 08:02 PM
Personaly i'm happy ther're giving us ANYthing for free.
i agree that an extra plane or two more that what is planed for the free add on would be nice. and i'm all of buying a pay add on if it
1. benifits the 3rd party guys
2. ensures contenuied support for THIS product.
(Not another "stand alone" product but THIS one.
I'm already to vested in this sim to try and start
all over in a 3rd sim)
3.Benifits 1c:Maddox and entices them to contenue to provide more pay add ons for THIS sim.

My feeling is this. I want FB to grow. More so than IL-2 or what the developers & publishers have in mind. I would hate to see support for this sim compleatly STOP after the 1st pay add on. I prsonaly would like to see at least 3 pay add-ons befre the product line comes to an end. That is unless Oleg has has planed a Massive pay add the like of which have never been seen in a flight sim.

I plan to contenuie my support of 1c:Maddox for as long as they contenuie to provide a good quality product with the same support that they have offerd us in the past. I'm looking forward to the WWII RTS by 1c:Maddox & Codemasters.
and as long as Oleg uses UBI to publish his games i will buy them, but only becuase Oleg & 1C devloped it.
I will NOT however ever puchase a UBIsoft pruduct that was not developed by 1C:maddox. They're near abbandoment of the IL-2 Product line over the past several months as well as they're lack of support for this products consumer community is terrible IMO. And if this is how UBI supports other products it offers i personaly want no part of it.
But to UBI's credit they have improved in this area as of late. but still my support for ubi will end the day maddox finds a new publisher for his software.

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XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 10:20 PM
TAO-Squadron wrote:
- LeadSpitter_ wrote:
-
--i seen fb_3do01.SFS
-- unencrypted /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif secure file system isnt so secure
-
-
-
-
- Explain this please /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
-
-
-
-
-
-

Bump

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 11:10 PM
Gibbage,
If you guys are getting paid for each included model, does that mean that your lisence for the student version of 3DStudio MAX will get nullified and you'll have to buy the commercial product? I know that this is a technical issue since you already have a student copy of the program, and there's no way the people at 3DStudio MAX can know Oleg's paying you for your work, but the question remains.
A lot of you aren't getting the point, I would gladly pay for an add-on. However, two of the guys in the squad I fly with are still school going kids. I don't know if they'll be able to get the add-on. Does that mean that they'll have to stop flying with us? It's hard to justify something like an add-on to your parents, believe me, I know, I've been there!

http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 12:06 AM
Christ ! Everyone wants something for nothing these days and when they get it all they can do is whinge while being happy to freeload on other peoples efforts. I bet plenty on these forums, like me, said they would be willing to pay for the quality of work turned out by the third party modellers when new development shots were uploaded. Well put your money where your mouth is and start supporting these people! I'm totally with Gib on this, if its keeps the current sim alive, allows development of future aviation oriented titles and keeps our small, but dedicated, band of modellers financially sound and active then I will put down good money on any paid add-on that comes my way

<center>http://mysite.freeserve.com/zensamurai/Madbadvlad5.jpg

'Whirlwind Whiner'
The First of the Few

Ex Ungue Leonem - 'By his claws one knows the Lion'
</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 12:57 AM
Thank you Gib, your posts on this thread help clarify at lot of things. Even the teasers. If you say Oleg's plans will excite us I believe you. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I hope the 3rd party guys get some form of reward for their efforts, something that is appropriate and doesn't cause strife with 3dS MAX. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

As for the posts with "think of the children", might I point out that in many cases you will find they download it off of a pirate site on the net or they get their mate who has a copy to burn one off for them/install it for them. In this day and age, no kid is going to be detered by the fact they can't "buy" it. They will find a way, be it legal or not. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I trust in Gibs word that the addon will be good. I'll start saving my $60-70 NZD for a copy (which is about what addons sell for here) and hope we ever get it down here. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif (Please, no five week wait this time UBI).

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."