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View Full Version : The P-51: A good idea or a good copy?



XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:29 AM
http://www.adlertag.de/flugzeuge/me309v4.gif


Now tell me that dosent look kinda like the P-51!
The ME-309V4 1941/42 design, never mass produced.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:29 AM
http://www.adlertag.de/flugzeuge/me309v4.gif


Now tell me that dosent look kinda like the P-51!
The ME-309V4 1941/42 design, never mass produced.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:32 AM
for me it looks like a bf109 with a bubble canopy

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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:39 AM
Even if it was partially copied it was still produced by the US bottom line and that Merlin made a good plane great... not to take away anything from any other planes.... If it was a copy the fact that the Germans never produced it is just a testament to the terrible leadership they had. Thank God the Generals didnt assassinate Hitler early on and take over..thank God Werner Heisenberg was not a full fledged card carrying boot stepping Nazi or we might live in a different world right now. I wonder ..... the ME309 didnt have a laminar flow wing did it? It is an interesting looking plane and another one of those what if things that can go on and on...

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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:45 AM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- Even if it was partially copied it was still
- produced by the US bottom line and that Merlin made
- a good plane great... not to take away anything from
- any other planes.... If it was a copy the fact that
- the Germans never produced it is just a testament to
- the terrible leadership they had. Thank God the
- Generals didnt assassinate Hitler early on and take
- over..thank God Werner Heisenberg was not a full
- fledged card carrying boot stepping Nazi or we might
- live in a different world right now. I wonder .....
- the ME309 didnt have a laminar flow wing did it? It
- is an interesting looking plane and another one of
- those what if things that can go on and on...
-

abd the answer is not? and yea i would like to know what the war had been like if the assesination atemps of hittler did work, the germans would have retread from the russian winter and reinforce to a new strike on summer, but no mister hittler send them to hell by leting them freez to death ad the rest surrender to the russians

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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:48 AM
hi,
a link to the designer's story of P-51/Edgar Schmued:

http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/schmued.htm

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1999/11/stuff_eng_p51early.htm


http://hallaudiobooks.com/index.php/Mode/product/AsinSearch/1560989947/name/Mustang%2520Designer%253A%2520Edgar%2520Schmued%25 20and%2520the%2520P-51/browse/1038314/page/1

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:54 AM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- Even if it was partially copied it was still
- produced by the US bottom line and that Merlin made
- a good plane great

Yes, the Germans had some good engines, but the Merlin/P-51 combo was just better at the altitude they fought at. Do remember that the Germans had to work with lower octane fuel though!


- not to take away anything from
- any other planes.... If it was a copy the fact that
- the Germans never produced it is just a testament to
- the terrible leadership they had.

Leadership? What leadership?

- Thank God the
- Generals didnt assassinate Hitler early on and take
- over

That might not have been a bad thing, some of them wanted to just end the war! Although a few wanted to use any means nescesary to win...

- I wonder .....
- the ME309 didnt have a laminar flow wing did it?

I don't think so, the first time i remember it being tested was on the F-111A Ardvark way after WWII, and it was too maintence intensive. When you flew through clouds of insects the little spots of bug-guts started to mess with the airflow.

[F-111A Ardvark: twin engine, swing-wing, modern attack aircraft. See also: EF-111 Raven "Sparkvark"]

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:56 AM
re : http://www.airandspacemagazine.com/ASM/Mag/Index/1996/AS/wmtm.html

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 07:11 AM
OT!

Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:14 AM
Salute

Me-309 was designed long AFTER the P-51 was up and flying.

If anything, the Me-309 was influenced by the P-51.

There is absolutely no credence to the posters suggestion that the P-51 was a copy of the Me-309. How could the designer of the P-51 copy anything which didn't exist.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:35 AM
"1941/42 design"

wasnt p51 after that time.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:57 AM
hi,
the P-51 is a typical warbird designed during WWII..

before starting the design + construction of this famous plane the designers visited 'Supermarine factory' in UK(1940), analyzing the 'Spitfire' + of course a catched
Me 109 + FW 190 by the RAF.

Conclusion: a multi fighter and a requirement to the general tactics of the allied air force at that time...

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 09:15 AM
Well the first flight of Me 309 was 18.6.1942.
Couple of new things were:
-DB 603 (1475 PS) that was a bit more powerfull than DB605 at the time
-Weapons up to 7 MG and MK
-Better landing and take-off characteristics due to tricycle landing gear.
-Laminar profile (also later swept wing), retractable oil- and watercooler
-good prepared for bigseries due to modularity of the structure
-pressurized cabin, ejection seat and adjustable-prop Me P6 (also capable of braking/reverse)

Why didn't they build this? They noticed that a new redesign of Me 209 was a better trade off. It climbed better and had a large compability with 109, meaning an easy change of production (85% or so common drawings etc.).

They weren't too impressed by the manouverability of 309 either...Now 209 that would have been something it outturned Bf 109G whereas 309 was significantly worse than 109.

209 might have had 1xMK108 2xMG131 in the fuselage AND 2xMG151 in the wing root, also planned was a heavy interceptor with 9 weapons (additional 4xMK108 in the wings)

http://people.freenet.de/hausberg/Me209.jpg

http://people.freenet.de/hausberg/209vs309.jpg



Then why not 209? Because Galland wrote to Milch in 43 after testing 262 that:

"We have Fw 190 D in the development, which should be in all the parameters equal to Me 209. Both types will not be performancewise superior to the enemies particularly in the altitude. Of course from the weaponry and the speed some improvements will be gained, therefore:

a) stop Me 209
b) complete fighterseriesproduction concentrated to Fw 190 with BMW 801 and Fw 190 with DB603 or Jumo 213.
c) Freed design and manufacturing capabilities to be concentrated immediately to Me 262"



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See the golden ghetto's creeper.
Crazy flags from history, songs for the White House gangsters, guns for hellgate railway sleepers.
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The city on the hill or so they said.
The snow is falling down around the armoury.
The city's closing in around my head.


Message Edited on 07/31/0309:20AM by Ugly_Kid

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 09:19 AM
I found no hint, or ever heard about the fact that the developers of the 309 tried to copy the pony, hmm the Yak1b flown allready combatmissions when the bubbly-mustang wasn´t ready so maybe the P51 is a Yak-copy?? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif just kidding

The 309 is a good looking plane with a bad performance, in mockdogfights vs a 109G it was outturnd and outclimbed but was faster (only a little bit) so they canceld the further development... cause it was no real improvement to the massproduced 109s.

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
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http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 09:54 AM
hmm, rgr that.

one question Abbuzze: What the he** does "PikAs" mean???

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 11:17 AM
It looks more like a copy of the Yak 3, or even exept for the engine,the P-39!

to me it doesn't look like the P-51 at all

Tully__
07-31-2003, 11:59 AM
VOL_Jon, read http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvonj

This topic is not one for Oleg's Ready room. Locking.

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