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alert_1
06-20-2005, 11:49 AM
Last nigt I have nice long fight on HL - me in Me109F4 vs. LaGG 3/35 series. We both merge at the same alt and both were pretty fast. i climb gently at high speed and start spiral climb, the LaGG went after me, climbing up. He was still closing, I was climbing at optimal speed (cca 260 km/h) but LaGG was slowly catching up.Having no other option, except maybe of diving away and running I finally enter turnfight, it seemed to be stalemate LaGG was matching to my Me109F4 very well. Then another 2 LaGGs appeared and I was lucky having chance to crashland...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
But how can the LAGG 3/35 match Me109F4 in climb and combat turn? Me109F4 has 1350hp, 2750kg take off weight and 17.3m wing area.
LaGG 3/35 has 1210 hp, 3300 kg take off weight and 17.9m wing area (I have less then 50% fuel at the moment).
Can anyone exppain this? And please don't tell me "learn to fly" I'm not ace but difference in performance should be very pronounced (LaGG is about 550kg hevier and has less powerful engine)

IHI.OuTcAsT
06-20-2005, 11:57 AM
Well, LA7 is also heavier than Yak, but still, I think it turns better.

LA/LAGGs seems to be the best turners in the game. After them, come the Yaks and the BF.

Von_Zero
06-20-2005, 12:00 PM
how long did the spiral climb lasted? Did you both had the same energy when it started? if you climbed for only few seconds and he had a higher energy state it isn't a surprise that he was catching up.

Huckebein_UK
06-20-2005, 12:05 PM
I never had the idea that the LaGG-3 was anywere near as effective as it is in this game before I played it. In all the accounts I'd read Russian pilots said it was too heavy and unstable and couldn't compete with the F-series '109s, so I was slightly annoyed at the apparent ease it had keeping up with me in early encounters I had with it. The damage model also seems to contradict everything I'd read beforehand. As it is though I tend to just take it as it is and do my best against them. The best thing you can do is learn to fight FB's LaGG-3s, not real life ones. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F19_Ob
06-20-2005, 12:06 PM
No problem to explain.

The LaGG3 has a fast top speed although it accellerates slowly from low speed.
The LaGG3 maybe had higher initial speed than U and/or bleed less in maneuvering than U.

In 4.01 all planes have stall and spin toned down, enabling all planes (not only LaGG3) to pull harder turns without combat flap. Probably why he didn't bleed so much speed?
In 3.04 the laGG3 became unstable in slow speeds wich made it difficult to pull hard without flipping but since stalls are toned down it now can pull harder and matches the 109 easier.

I can keep on for a while but this might be enough.

cheers

PBNA-Boosher
06-20-2005, 12:07 PM
I remember watching "The Last Starfighter" a while ago. That wasn't such a good movie, but it was fun.

Oh, the LaGG is downright deadly to those who don't respect it, alright. My prime # of aerial kills with it in one sortie was 5, and I made it back to base too!

anarchy52
06-20-2005, 12:10 PM
The wonders of optimistic modelling

In reality LaGG-3 was last of the total cr@p in VVS inventory. Heavy, bad in horizontal and worse in vertical, slow acceleration, heavy controls at all speeds.
It had a few virtues: tougher then Yaks and fast on the deck (if you had time to accelerate).

S.66 was improvement over earlier series but still LAGGing behind 109F.

Soviet pilots didn't like LaGG-3 at all

jurinko
06-20-2005, 12:10 PM
well if the LaGGs are modelled as they were, only aces and masochists should fly them.. the early series were worse than Me-109 in all aspects, maybe the airframe rugdness and armament was better than let´s say Me-109 F-2. They turned worse, climbed and dived worse, overehated easily, were slower to the extent that Russian pilots refused to fly them, what obviously needed a good reason - the penalty squads were plentiful.

I am used to fight Soviet planes with great care, even flying superior plane. Yes, laGG should never be able to climb with real Me-109, or absorb 20 cannon hits. Here just get used to it and enjoy those kills.

Ankanor
06-20-2005, 12:12 PM
The LaGG-3 last series was a very good aircraft. It was a match for a Me109G-2, it should be a match for The Friedrich. And there are quite a few very good flyers around(JimmyGiro comes to my mind, if he is still flying). Don't put it to your heart. IIRC Backhorn had this not so pleasant experience back in 1943, he duelled with a Russian Lagg-3 for 45 minutes. Neither of them could gain an advantage and they disengaged because of low fuel.

jugent
06-20-2005, 12:40 PM
I think that Maddox team hasnt changed all the profiles yet.
Some russian planes are very tough.
It would be fun if there where a dogfight server that matched RAF/USAF against VVS, especially the models after 1943.

Stigler_9_JG52
06-20-2005, 12:47 PM
The LaGG-3 (which the Soviet pilots referred to as the "Guaranteed Varnished Coffin", and was not favorably compared to either a Yak-1 or a lend-lease Hurricane) has always been optimistically modeled in this sim, similar to the treatment the "lowly" P-39 has gotten.

The early version of the LaGG-3 is kind of heavy and unwieldy, but it turns pretty well sustained and can take a full clip of 109F ammo and still be flying.

It's the later LaGG-3 66 model that's the REAL bear. It can outclimb a 109G (below 4km or so), plus outturn it and run it down in a tail chase. I'd have thought you'd need a La5FN to categorically outperform a 109G. I recall how easily the Late LaGGs cleared the skies in one of the early online wars. There weren't many German pilots who were happy with that, I can assure you.

The LaGG-3 would definitely be one of those planes that could use a "full disclosure" of what numbers and data were used to arrive at the in-game model.

JamesBlonde888
06-20-2005, 05:15 PM
Was it the LaGG-3 or the MiG-3 that the VVS pilots used to refer to as 'The spinning coffin'? I can't remember but I have had several unrecoverable spins in both a/c... Personally I have found both to be Focke-fodder.

LEXX_Luthor
06-20-2005, 05:45 PM
alert::
Can anyone exppain this?
Yes. Lagg may be overmodded, or you may have found better Online pilots than you.


And please don't tell me "learn to fly"
Learn to test fly. Conduct FM tests on both aircraft and compare. This will see if the Online Dogfight panic is backed up by sim data. Then present your test results and full written testing procedure in a manner that will convince other people.


I'm not ace but difference in performance should be very pronounced
If that's true about performance difference missing in game, you can make FM tests that confirm any Online panic.

VW-IceFire
06-20-2005, 06:05 PM
The LaGG-3 has an interesting history. More than most people appreciate. Here's some poignant quotes.



The aircraft that Lavochkin's team came up with was a streamlined low-wing monoplane with retractable landing gear powered by the Klimov M-105 V-12 engine and designated I-22 (I=Istrebitelny=fighter). The I-22 first flew on March 30, 1939 and was soon redesignated. the LaGG-1 in the new designer-oriented naming scheme for Soviet aircraft. Some 100 aircraft were sent to evaluation squadrons where their shortcomings, chiefly lack of power and maneuverability, became obvious. The design still held promise and Lavochkin and his colleagues went back to the drawing board.




Lavochkin substituted an improved 1240 hp M-105PF engine and added modifications including the addition of wing slats to provide additional maneuverability and the revised aircraft, known as the LaGG-3, first flew on March 30, 1940, was accepted and entered full production. In order to circumvent shortages of steel tube and light alloy in the aircraft industry, the LaGG-3 was mainly constructed of [/b]delta drevesina (delta timber), a plastic-impregnated birch plywood, developed by L.I. Ryzhkov, that was fire-resistant and exceptionally strong.[/b] Control surfaces were fabric-covered . The appearance of these highly polished wooden fighters soon earned them the nickname of "Grand Pianos" from the pilots. Later nicknames for the LaGG-3 would be less affectionate. Pilots could also appreciate the fact that the fuel tanks were self-sealing and as an additional safety feature, exhaust gases were pumped into the fuel tanks, surrounding the fuel with inert gas instead of oxygen-rich air.




In addition to not being enough of them, the LaGG-3 also suffered from quality problems. Underpowered and overweight, the LaGG-3 revealed a tendency to go into a sudden, vicious spin from a steep banking turn. Although a few experienced Soviet pilots had a measure of success in the LaGG-3, pilots in most outfits were inadequately prepared for its unforgiving characteristics. Many of the problems connected with the LaGG-3 were due to poor quality control. The novel wood-laminate construction gave particular headaches and quality varied widely from plant to plant. As a result, pilots did not know exactly what kind of an aircraft they were getting. Some aircraft supplied to the front line were up to 25mph (40 kph) slower than they should have been, and some were even supplied in an unairworthy condition. Despite all this, the fighter still acquitted itself well against the BF-109E, largely through an ability to absorb massive amounts of damage. The aircraft was also easy to master and pilots found it more tractable than the MiG-3, the other new fighter entering service with the VVS (Voennoy Vozhdushniye Sili=Soviet Air Force).

You can find that and more at this link: http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/profile.asp?cat_id=3&ple_id=422



The predecessor of the La-5 and La-7. It was designed by S. A. Lavochkin, V. P. Gorbunov & M. I. Gudkov, (LaGG). The Lavochkin LAGG-3 was a refined version of the LaGG-1 which suffered from a number of faults. Some of these were cured by the introduction of a more powerful Klimov M-105P, 1050hp engine. There was also changes to the structure with a lighter airframe and improved wing slats and elevators. The LaGG-3 entered service in the early months of 1941 and was rapidly produced until mid-1942. Although it was an improved design, the LaGG-3 was still lacking the desired fighter qualities and was dubbed the 'Guaranteed Varnished Coffin' by its pilots. Despite being generally rated as underpowered and not highly maneuverable, the LAGG-3 proved to be a durable fighter. The first fights of the LAGG-3s faced German Bf-109Es in June of 1941, demonstrating that they were quite capable opponents, if somewhat over-weighted for their power.

It incorporated self-sealing fuel tanks and exhaust gas ducted into the fuel tanks as inert gas.

During the early stages of German invasion the LaGG-3 was used extensively, and proved itself adequate, if not superb, fighter. Its resistance to combat damage was a large factor of its relative success.
http://www.pioneeraero.co.nz/lagg-3_lavochkin.htm

There's more out there on the web if you choose to find it (and I suppose if you choose to believe it).

In my estimating, the Lagg-3 is not all that optimistically modeled except in one crucial area: Oleg does not provide for quality control concerns for any fighter and therefore the Lagg-3 is performing as some of the properly constructed models were as opposed to the ones that had serious defects or were not airworthy. This applies to all types of course and is not limited to just the Lagg-3.

Its durable. That is well accounted for nearly everywhere I find mention of the plane. So while its DM model may be a bit simple...its not all that surprising that its one of the tougher aircraft around. The Detal wood, much maligned as a "super material" and subsequently scoffed at...again, as written here and in other popular material, its suggested that the delta wood was actually a beneficial thing. The aircrafts fuel tanks also being self sealing and pumped full of exhaust gass (inert) to provide an additional level of protection.

As for manueverability...that one is harder to qualify I think. But lets consider that its "average" manuverability was likely being compared to other aircraft in the VVS of that time period. The vast majority being the I-16, the I-153, and a very small number of Yak-1s. The I-16 and I-153 I don't really have to tell you were far more manueverable than the Lagg-3. The Yak-1 a bit more manueverable. Not a big surprise (or shouldn't be) that the plane is considered not very manuverable.

My feeling: the Lagg-3 requires attention. Its one of the oldest planes in the game not given a proper shakeover. That said...it corresponds more with what I've read than what people say about it here.

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-20-2005, 06:14 PM
BF-109G2 maybe not the last but along with the Uber elite.

CzechTexan
06-20-2005, 06:47 PM
Russian ace Igor Kaberov loved his LaGG-3. He served with the Baltic Fleet in the Leningrad area completing 476 sorties, took part in 132 aerial battles, and shot down 28 enemy aircraft. Although not all of his kills were made flying the LaGG, he did prefer it over the I-16 and Hurricane. A good pilot can use his skills to make his plane perform at its best ability.

Vipez-
06-21-2005, 11:46 AM
In short, LaGG-3 was a fighter that produced only a few aces for the VVS.. when VVS-pilots received P39s and LA5F, LA5FNs, and their kills were rising considerably..

However, in the game it is sometimes otherway around http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Most serious optimistic modelling of the Lagg-3 refers how it does (or does not) bleed energy on turns, even Oleg acknowledges it's quick bleed of energy on continous turns was a serious weakness. However, allways as i can remember i have been able to yank and bank, and pull my stick as hard as i can in the Lagg-3 without stalling http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And its simple DM, you won't loose engine power after getting hit in the engine, you won't loose control surfaces by getting cables shot etc.. When we received Series 35 and 29 in AEP; i was hoping to get LaGG-3's DM more complicated, but unfortunalety these planes kept the same simple DM from "Older" Laggs

In 3.04 we often made duels, Lagg-3 S-66 was found better than Yak-3 in many ways, surprising to say but it turned very similar.. sometimes even better .. I can't say i have flown it in 4.01 yet though, but i wouldnt imagine it been any different http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

LEXX_Luthor
06-21-2005, 12:01 PM
Vipez::
However, in the game it is sometimes otherway around
Oleg explained this, in reference to year 1941...

Oleg_Maddox::
German pilots ten times better
Pilot skill, tactics, and Leadership are not modded for the Online Dogfight, although a very few skillfull and knowledgable Luftwaffe Squads can mod this themselves. This lack of modding historical Luftwaffe advantages can cause significant loss of internet Brownie Points for the Blue side. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

HayateAce
06-21-2005, 12:06 PM
Here ye I show an Uberfighter:

Gross overmodel well beyond what history will say. Enjoy this helium-filled clown tricycle and remember to jerk them sticks!

ClownFighter, FighterClown, aka KlownenWaggonen.

http://il2.rus.lv/files/skin/chief_109g2_schultz.jpg

http://rsb.info.nih.gov/ij/images/clown.jpg

Ankanor
06-21-2005, 12:28 PM
I expected you to say something sensible, just for a change. But no, once again you live to your name... how typical... I wish you could find another less boring way of whining. This is a bloody brain cell slaughtering boredom. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif