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XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 09:10 AM
hi all.

i have been reading threads of LW planes being undermodelled and not being accurate.

i think the same stands for some russian birds as well. they can BZ without any prob, they can keep up in dives with the lot heavier german planes, and they can climb at least as nicely as messers or fockes can.

there is one thing however that bugs me the most. it is the lack of necessity to use prop pitch setting in ALL VVs planes. i personally adore fiddling with the prop, so i am used to it. you have nothing to do in a russian plane with the prop setting, it runs on 100% for good. try it on an emil or a fritz! in a matter of nil seconds you get your engine busted! THIS IS INSANE! how come russian planes never overrun?????

the problem IMHO lies in the inaccurate modelling of prop setting and the vertical performance of the russian birds.

i fly 190 most of the time. and i fly in FR servers only.
it is only there where you can exploit the real advantages of a plane.

cheers

plébános

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 09:10 AM
hi all.

i have been reading threads of LW planes being undermodelled and not being accurate.

i think the same stands for some russian birds as well. they can BZ without any prob, they can keep up in dives with the lot heavier german planes, and they can climb at least as nicely as messers or fockes can.

there is one thing however that bugs me the most. it is the lack of necessity to use prop pitch setting in ALL VVs planes. i personally adore fiddling with the prop, so i am used to it. you have nothing to do in a russian plane with the prop setting, it runs on 100% for good. try it on an emil or a fritz! in a matter of nil seconds you get your engine busted! THIS IS INSANE! how come russian planes never overrun?????

the problem IMHO lies in the inaccurate modelling of prop setting and the vertical performance of the russian birds.

i fly 190 most of the time. and i fly in FR servers only.
it is only there where you can exploit the real advantages of a plane.

cheers

plébános

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 09:13 AM
How do you know? Have you done any research? Have you flown the real thing? Or is your argument just what it seems: Some people complain over Luftwaffe planes, so there has got to be something wrong with the Soviet planes. That's really it, isn't it?

/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 09:15 AM
Russian planes have constant speed props. German planes don't.

No Russian plane can climb with the late 109's

The Fw190 is a differnt story. It should climb much better.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 09:22 AM
Buzz, if they have constant speed props what is prop pitch setting for?

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 09:34 AM
You can change pitch to anything you want, but 1005 will give the best performance. You can also change it for economy. I'm not sure this is 100% correct. The patch will tell the story.

Da Buzz
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http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 09:44 AM
okay, lets say you are right. then why is it that on LW planes if you use manual setting you can get better performance out of the engine?

why does kommandogerat s-ck?

i dont think it was like this in RL....

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 10:06 AM
There are many issues accross the board that affect all aircraft. Some of these issues are a/c specific, for example...

The Bf109 E-4 climbs like a Bf109 K-4 - obviously incorrect (around 24 m/s)

The Hurri can perform very high AOA moves without departure and can for example TnB at 250Kph without energy bleed - again a problem.

More generally though, FB's FM favours aircraft with a Low-Wing loading which happens to be most VVS types and not the LW types. This leads to low energy bleed and also major issues with low speed and high AOA flight characterisitcs. Hopefully the patch will address this, but it must be a difficult job - be sure /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Also (IMHO) aircraft mass is not taken into account fully so light aircraft like the Yak-3 can keep up with aircraft like the Fw190-A9 in a dive, which doesn't really match up to logic or historical accounts. Then again (just to show I'm not a total Luftwhiner!) The FW190 -A9 is waaaay too fast at 6000M (something like 700+ Kph - can't remember at the moment).

The lack of a high-alt flight model (I mean 7000M+ not 5000M /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) also denies many LW aircraft their advantage in terms of superior performance at such altitudes.

Combine all these things (and there are more!) and you can understand why some of us question the current FM. However, we should wait for the patch (trust me - Oleg is aware of these issues!) and then do thourough testing - not just Yak beat me therefore it's overmodelled!

FB has got so many things right, wait for the patch then we can test and discuss further.

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 10:24 AM
yeah, thats exactly what i was gonna say. it is not only one or two planes that are needed to be corrected. remember back in il2 days, how crap 109G6 was. now it is a competent fighter. i hope this will happen soon in the patch with 190s. they must have elevators above 400, not?



"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 10:47 AM
To be honest, the Yak-9 seems not fast enough at sea level.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 11:03 AM
If we look back at the old IL-2 days.
The people defending that FM must have got an eye opener when FB was released.

It was so totally different to IL-2 (which many of us were led to believe was fairly accurate) that I can't see the point in arguing about the accuracy of the FM.

Dicussing it would be more appropriate./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

As for defending it...well that's like putting your head on a chopping block /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

As for VVS planes, the LaGG3 '41 is a very good aircraft now./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Not to mention the P39 which was having a hard time getting of the ground in IL-2.

F19_Choocky

http://www.f19vs.tk/

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 11:36 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Russian planes have constant speed props. German
- planes don't.
-
- No Russian plane can climb with the late 109's
-
-
- The Fw190 is a differnt story. It should climb much
- better.
-
-
- Da Buzz

So?Lack of i.e sophisticated Kommandoger¤t was a hidden strength of Russian fighter.

You actually think that CS prop is some kind of miracle?, not subject to overrevving because that's how the game potrays it? You really think that there were absolutely no limitations in diving from engine control side? You truly think that all of these aircraft had no limitations dashing into 90? vertical diving with full power?

Whatever...

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XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 11:46 AM
According to some people the whole game is 'goofed'.It beats me why they still play the game when so many things seem to "BUG" them/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

CMarky/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 12:28 PM
CMarky, we play the game cos it is fun to play. i would rather have a game that is free of irritating mistakes which are so evident.

1.no need to set prop pitch
2.hardly ever use radiators
3.incredibly small energy loss in tight maneuvers
4.effective guns

plébános



"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 04:55 PM
That was a joke by the way/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .(well sort of/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

CMarky/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 05:58 PM
Plebanos about has it right.

The FM in IL-2:FB is pretty bad in relation to the original IL-2. I'll add to the list:

Sniper AI in HO situations and flex gunners
Gravity-defying AI in *many* combat situations
The "shotgun" ballistics of the Mk108, even at very short range
Damage model inequities (not sure if it's the weapon or the plane being hit, but I've seen a couple of those screenies from tracks replayed in "arcade" mode, which show hits and vectors; direct hits in cockpits and "critical" hit areas doing little to NO damage)

But, by far, the worst of the lot is the energy bleed problems, which affect EVERYONE.

What is really vexing most of us is how, in many cases, we see how German aircraft foibles are done "to the nines" and any documented problems with Russian aircraft are "minimized". Ever notice how heat is almost never a problem with a Russian bird, yet 109Fs and Es overheat if you so much as run it at 100%, whether the cooling flaps are open or not? This is without even using WEP, mind you.

I won't even play FB until the patch comes out. It's a really bad joke in its current condition. When the patch does come out, I have a nice laundry list of things to check over to be sure there's been an honest attempt to make FB a decent simulation again.

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 07:20 PM
Ugly_Kid

Read my post again. I'll quote myself for you.

I'm not sure this is 100% correct. The patch will tell the story.


Whatever..To quote you kid.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 07:30 PM
there is no doubt, in a low altitude DF, the Russian planes are much much better than the LW planes.

Many will flame that statement saying..."Well, I own in my 109 so there buddy"...but would that pilot be better in a russian bird....answer...you bet he would!

Try it. Fly your favorite 190 for 1/2 hour on line, then get in an La7, yak9, etc...and see what happens.

Yes you have to fly all planes to their strengths...I know that...but the Russian planes have No weaknesses (exaggeration intended).

I tried this last night. After flying the Dora, I flew a Yak9. I couldn't stall it! she lifts off the runway in much shorter take off runs, she climbs with 109s, she out turns everything...well I am exagerating..but you get the point.

Now this may be historically correct, because in the war, low level DFs were the exception not the rule.

But this is a game, and having a fair game is important too. Is there a Russian bias? I don't know, but the Russian planes are much, much better that the LW planes in low level DFs...


Oh and yes you can fly high and fast all the time, but that is not much fun after a while.

http://www.aviationartprints.com/images/kw4.jpg
"The important thing about aeroplanes is that they should be speedy." -Richthofen



Message Edited on 06/11/0306:36PM by OberstOberst

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 07:53 PM
The IL-2 Strumoviks have always been hard to stall in this sim, even in the old IL-2 versions. It doesn't seem right that they are impossible to stall, considering that the CG was so far aft in the first 2 seater models that they swept the wings 15 degrees in the type 3 to make it stable again.

Planes with aft CG tend to fall into a "mush" if you're not careful and usually give little warning before stalling, but warning or not, the IL-2 simply doesn't stall.

Getting back to your question though.... don't worry about prop pitch problems for now. It's all going to be changed in the patch.

--
<font size=-2>A little known fact to most WW2 historians, the Luftwaffe selected only midgets and dwarves to fly the Fw 190. This practice put the little people to good use while also serving the despicable "final solution" of eliminating undesirable persons through combat losses. Thanks to proprietary historical documents (which cannot be revealed to the public) Forgotten Battles is the ONLY flight sim to model this historic detail.</font>

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 10:40 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-canada.gif

---I tried this last night. After flying the Dora, I flew a
---Yak9. I couldn't stall it! she lifts off the runway in
---much shorter take off runs, she climbs with 109s, she
---out turns everything...well I am exagerating..but you get the point.

Hiding which Yak~9 model that you exaggerate makes a difference...and we got that point.

---Now this may be historically correct, because in the
---war, low level DFs were the exception not the rule.

Which WAR? Battle of Britain? I get your point. Rowan Software has a high level BoB sim.

---But this is a game, and having a fair game is important
---too. Is there a Russian bias? I don't know, but the
---Russian planes are much, much better that the LW planes
---in low level DFs...

Germany designed medium altitude fighters. Soviet Union designed low altitude fighters (except MiG~3). Adolf Hitler was biased against new practical fighter aircraft design, Stalin was not. FB models this perfectly. FB also models the effect of Hitler and Stalin both being biased against large strategic bombers. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

---Oh and yes you can fly high and fast all the time, but
---that is not much fun after a while.

Poor thing. And I am all alone in my MiG~3 at 10km because nobody wants to come up and play with me. FB is biased in favour of low level German aircraft way down there at 5km altitude. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

This is not just a game, but a Passion, so I can see the frustration that German aircraft options are limited in FB (hence the endless "versions" of the same two fighters), as they were limited to real German pilots in the real WAR.

~lois~



Message Edited on 06/11/0309:44PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 05:03 AM
The Yak-9's top speed is goofed. It only gets to 482 at sea level (should be about 520), then you put it to supercharger stage 2 and it jumps to about 512 or something. Other Yaks get a little boost this way but no where near this much.

http://www.brewsterbuffalos.org/yoj/pictures/006.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 05:22 AM
Prop pitch setting, in the constant prop planes, (190A's, Brester, most VVS and American planes) is used to control the desired RPM directly. i.e. you are actually setting RPM with the pitch control not the blade angle. There's no problem there.

The problem that I can't seem to get my head wrapped around is why a constant speed prop will not over-rev. It too, like the variable pitch planes, should have mechanical limits that will not allow you to maintain RPM regardless of airspeed/throttle setting. A dive at full throttle should still over-rev a CSP-equipped aircraft. The only difference is that you are less likely to over-rev a CSP plane through pilot error.

Then again, Oleg's already said that CEM is being looked at and we shall see what the patch brings.

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
shoes!
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XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 05:45 AM
Jet,

I'm not sure it's right. Patch will tell us.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

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XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 06:02 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Jet,
-
- I'm not sure it's right. Patch will tell us.
-
-
- Da Buzz


Someone posted a site that explained CSP very good when FB first came out, I really wish I could find the site, on some civilian aviation site. But anyways it explained exactly how a CSP prop worked. The CSP props should overrev in a dive if held at full throttle. I have been drinking a little tonight or else I would maybe be able to remember exactly why. Now I know the 190 had CSP too, so one question I have is would it be able to overrev, or would the Kommodareaereer(forgot how to spell it but you know what I mean) back off the throttle to keep from overreving. I believe the He111 has a CSP also, someone should try to overrev it in a dive, I dont believe I have when I have divebombed with it. Anyways, I will try to look up taht article.

--lbhkilla--

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/FW190.jpg .

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"We could do with some of those razor blades, Herr Reichsmarshall."
When Erwin Rommel that British fighter-bombers had shot up my tanks with 40mm shells, the Hermann G¶ring who felt himself touched by this, said: "That's completely impossible. The Americans only know how to make razor blades." and the above was Rommels reply.

XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 06:24 AM
Ah yes, now I remember. The CSP will automatically coarsen the prop for higher speed/alt, etc, to keep the rpm in check. However just like the variable pitch prop on the 109s, there are stops, the prop can only go so coarse. In the 109 if you dive at full coarse and full throttle you will still overrev, you have to back off the throttle. Even at full coarse, in the dive it will still spin fast enough to overrev, this same thing should happen to a CSP prop, the CSP will adjust the pitch all the way to the stops, but at full throttle in a dive this still will not be enough to keep from overreving. So therefore the CSP should be able to overrev in a dive. Now, about running at full rpm all the time. I have heard accounts of american airmen that were very excited when they switched over to the P80 because they didnt have to deal with so many levers(ie prop pitch, mixture), they now just had a go handle. It seems like they had to use the prop pitch more than we do now. I think that running full rpm the whole time would burn up the engine pretty fast. 100% prop pitch right now sets your rpm right at redline, which wouldnt be too healthy for a long time, especailly at high manifold pressures.

--lbhkilla--

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/FW190.jpg .

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"We could do with some of those razor blades, Herr Reichsmarshall."
When Erwin Rommel that British fighter-bombers had shot up my tanks with 40mm shells, the Hermann G¶ring who felt himself touched by this, said: "That's completely impossible. The Americans only know how to make razor blades." and the above was Rommels reply.

XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 06:25 AM
The Kommandogerrat (sp?) apparently placed RPM control and throttle control into one centralized unit. i.e. open your throttle and you're increasing your "desired" RPM, close it and you're reducing it. i.e. it's like moving the RPM control and throttle in sync. In addition, it also maintained MP by managing the supercharger IIRC.

Basically, the pilot then only had to use the throttle to control the plane's engine, nothing else. The closest thing to this we have in game seems to be the 109s' and Dora's auto-pitch setting.

Memory is not as good as it used to be, or I could have given you a more certain answer.

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
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XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 06:48 AM
One thing for sure. it can't be right the way it is. We might as well not even have CEM now. You don't need to touch anything.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 07:27 AM
BUzz, you are the man in town. in russian planes it is like having the kommandogerat. but there is no such thing in them.

adn also why is it that german planes fly crippled with the gerat?

plébános

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
06-12-2003, 07:29 AM
Exactly! Patch please, and hurry it up.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 12:04 PM
any ideas?

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 12:30 PM
They aren'T goofed because they won the war.


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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 12:57 PM
There is no reason why a variable pitch propellor as featured in Emil should overrev any more than a CSP or vice versa. There is also a practical limit to the CSP stops.
With a blade angle of 45? for the tip (practically even lower as the root goes with higher angle) your prop is only producing more torque and hardly any thrust. So what's the use of that then? Even in this case it is more economical to set lower rpm on CSP, well you can't do that without reducing MP (manifold pressure). So in the end you will cut the throttle and pull coarser pitch...

It depends on the prop rev (not same as engine revs) and the airspeed but at some moment turning the prop coarser does not make any sense anymore because it will not provide any thrust anymore only torque. At this moment the engine power can't compensate it anymore because power P equals to torque times rotational velocity (2*pii*revs):

P=M*omega

Thus even with unlimited stops engine can't maintain rev and will reduce prop's relative angle of attack at some point AoA will be negative and prop will be windmill -> overrev.

Additionally, there is a funny effect called prop goes supersonic. This alone can't be avoided and it means first of all loss of efficiency and second of all increase (huge increase) of blade drag ~ torque. Same result - windmill.

Latter can be delayed with special swept transonic rotorblade design something that was throughoutly investigated in 60s before turboprops.

For this reason there are two possibilities. Small prop diameter, small revs, lower tip speed BUT need for coarser pitch because relationship airspeed/radial speed turns it more towards airstream -> big torque. Another possibility higher rpm bigger prop -> lower torque relatively finer pitch at high speed BUT problems with supersonic tips -> also more torque.

There are at least two clear penalty cases missing. Coarse pitch and high MP -> detonation. Fine pitch low MP -> engine does not provide torque so only way to maintain rpm is to take it from airstream (windmilling) -> bad idea overrevving. In both cases crossing pitch and throttle control is nono.

CSP nor magical Kommandoger¤t neither means that you can dash into vertical dives with full throttle with no worries. Additionally CSP obviously needs more care, it can't be completely forgotten to 100% and treated independently from throttle.

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