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View Full Version : really cool Color guncam fotos with fighting down on the deck



DIRTY-MAC
07-24-2006, 06:56 PM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7744581555089434832&q=ww2+gov

T_O_A_D
07-24-2006, 07:23 PM
Notice how often they get in each others way, Just like online a little too zealous.

Airmail109
07-24-2006, 07:23 PM
Interesting and kinda sad.....but god some of those pilots are **** shots....feel bad for the betty pilots....must be a real crappy feeling

berg417448
07-24-2006, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Interesting and kinda sad.....but god some of those pilots are **** shots....feel bad for the betty pilots....must be a real crappy feeling

A lot of people who shoot well in this game might find that they don't shoot so well in real life when they have to fight real G forces and real stick forces.

Airmail109
07-24-2006, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Interesting and kinda sad.....but god some of those pilots are **** shots....feel bad for the betty pilots....must be a real crappy feeling

A lot of people who shoot well in this game might find that they don't shoot so well in real life when they have to fight real G forces and real stick forces. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im a good shot at clay pidgeon shooting as well as the game....just a natural with anything that involves shooting....but i spose your right

berg417448
07-24-2006, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Interesting and kinda sad.....but god some of those pilots are **** shots....feel bad for the betty pilots....must be a real crappy feeling

A lot of people who shoot well in this game might find that they don't shoot so well in real life when they have to fight real G forces and real stick forces. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im a good shot at clay pidgeon shooting as well as the game....just a natural with anything that involves shooting....but i spose your right </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Next time, just for fun, try something that I used to do to my students when I taught firearms to a police academy...run 100 yards full speed, drop down and do 20 pushups and THEN go draw your weapon and try to shoot at and hit a moving target accurately. It is altogether a different experience when your breathing is heavy, your heart is racing and your muscles are tired and there is sweat in your eyes.

ColoradoBBQ
07-24-2006, 08:00 PM
Could be a rookie, Airmail. Shooting targets is one thing but to shoot a real manuevering target is something else.

LStarosta
07-24-2006, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Interesting and kinda sad.....but god some of those pilots are **** shots....feel bad for the betty pilots....must be a real crappy feeling

A lot of people who shoot well in this game might find that they don't shoot so well in real life when they have to fight real G forces and real stick forces. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im a good shot at clay pidgeon shooting as well as the game....just a natural with anything that involves shooting....but i spose your right </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Next time, just for fun, try something that I used to do to my students when I taught firearms to a police academy...run 100 yards full speed, drop down and do 20 pushups and THEN go draw your weapon and try to shoot at and hit a moving target accurately. It is altogether a different experience when your breathing is heavy, your heart is racing and your muscles are tired and there is sweat in your eyes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that from a prone, sitting, kneeling, or standing position?

berg417448
07-24-2006, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:



Next time, just for fun, try something that I used to do to my students when I taught firearms to a police academy...run 100 yards full speed, drop down and do 20 pushups and THEN go draw your weapon and try to shoot at and hit a moving target accurately. It is altogether a different experience when your breathing is heavy, your heart is racing and your muscles are tired and there is sweat in your eyes.

Is that from a prone, sitting, kneeling, or standing position?[/QUOTE]


Usually standing.

bird_brain
07-24-2006, 08:23 PM
If they were good, it would be a short clip...

Cool find anyway and I found myself saying "come on... pull a little more lead... not yet, not yet... now!" and then thinking about the guy in the burning crate. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

It was a rough time calling for harsh actions. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

-HH- Beebop
07-24-2006, 08:49 PM
Good compendium of footage. Makes me feel a little better about my gunnery though. It shows why "only" 5 kills made you an ace.
I also kept waiting for the 'PK' on those Betty shots, like those that happen to me when I end up on a bombers' six.

Slater_51st
07-24-2006, 10:19 PM
Clips of bad shots give reviewers(thinking operational pilots of the era) more common mistakes to point out. Besides, far more pilots in WWII were relatively inexperienced, and (at least on the allied side) did not see combat every mission.

Think back to your first online kill in a full switch server....I know I was sweaty and jittery as hell. Now, imagine that with G-forces and being scared for your life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

S! Slate

Waldo.Pepper
07-24-2006, 11:31 PM
Guys it hard cause its real. We play a game.

3% of German rounds hit. When they are AIMED!

polak5
07-25-2006, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by Slater_51st:
Clips of bad shots give reviewers(thinking operational pilots of the era) more common mistakes to point out. Besides, far more pilots in WWII were relatively inexperienced, and (at least on the allied side) did not see combat every mission.

Think back to your first online kill in a full switch server....I know I was sweaty and jittery as hell. Now, imagine that with G-forces and being scared for your life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

S! Slate

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/6402/pbf055adgamesystemvv0.jpg

lowfighter
07-25-2006, 01:34 AM
Fantastic, thank you very much! That poor guy just turning, turning, closer to ground, closer to death http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It was rather hot up there...

SeaFireLIV
07-25-2006, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by berg417448:


A lot of people who shoot well in this game might find that they don't shoot so well in real life when they have to fight real G forces and real stick forces.

Precisely, most `armchair` pilots think of only their `Aces` who scored multiple kills, but even then it`s very tough work!

That`s why I grit my teeth when I hear people whining that X-plane is rubbish or too `uber` because they find it hard to bring an aircraft down. So many find it hard to imagine themselves in the real pilot`s seat, struggling with G forces, stick forces, aircraft stress, disorientation and always the possibility of death, etc, etc.

Far different from sitting in a comfortable non-moving chair chair with TIR and a laughable `FF` stick. As someone else said, if most of us were wisked into a real WWII aircraft and sent into a dogfight we`d probably not even make it off the tarmac!

Anyway, to the footage. There was one footage where the enmy aircraft was making a very long turn to the left, obviously trying to outturn the plane with the camera. I really get the impression it was hard for both prey and the hunter.

The chasing pilot was just not quite able to get the angle he needed (just like offline) and that low to the ground must have been making him struggle just not to stall out. I bet he was using every muscle in his body to stay on that guy`s six.

Similarly, the aircraft was also just managing to keep a constant hard turn, risking all to try and outturn his pursuer. He too must have been fighting for dear life.

Notice how finally, the chaser got a shot, but didn`t really hit and the runner then panicked, suddenly turned and stalled out! That low and he had no chance.

I think the running pilot must have been new-ish, since he did what I`ve seen many online pilots do: He just kept trying to outturn. Even when it was obvious he wasn`t going to outturn the guy, he still kept at it, until he was shot at. A more experienced pilot would`ve tried a new manouever by then, like a scissors, just to keep his chaser off target.

This happens online a lot.

Amazing dogfight scene there and scary when you realise what must`ve been happening there.

Xnomad
07-25-2006, 04:52 AM
What I find surprising is that most of the target aircraft maintain the same turn, speed and altitude the whole time whilst being shot at making it only a matter of time until they get shot down.

That one where they get quite low and fly over the roof tops was quite awful really as it doesn't look like he would have survived, and shows the desperation he must have been feeling by flying so low to force his attacker to pull away.

Enforcer572005
07-25-2006, 05:07 AM
yeah, that was great. the long turn was incredible, especially when the EA had to dodge some bldings that got in his way. Lots in this sim reflected in that footage.

Notice how the long range shots had the same results (or lack there of ) as they do in the sim. You gotta get close, unless youre really lucky.

My online flying with the hounds and dogs results in my usually not getting any kills on human flown planes (maybe one or two at most) but managing to evade much of the time. I stay pretty defensive it seems....those guys trying to get away reminded me of that alot.

SeaFireLIV
07-25-2006, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by Xnomad:
What I find surprising is that most of the target aircraft maintain the same turn, speed and altitude the whole time whilst being shot at making it only a matter of time until they get shot down.

That one where they get quite low and fly over the roof tops was quite awful really as it doesn't look like he would have survived, and shows the desperation he must have been feeling by flying so low to force his attacker to pull away.

Yep. The guy on the receiving end is truly fighting for his life. I`ve just had another look at the footage and in the earlier part of the film, the running plane just skims over the roof of a house. He must be only 10 -15 feet clear of it. You can see the shadow pass under. Even in IL2, I`d find that an extremely dangerous manouever. The guy is desperate. Desperate not to hit the ground, yet more desperate not to get shot down.

Lucius_Esox
07-25-2006, 07:08 AM
I suppose being gun gam footage it doesn't show in any way the effects of g or stick input force needed, they might not have been changing attitude because they couldn't.

I thought the one where the guy was in a long slow turn sad.

Does make you think about the game though because in one bit someone takes a shot, overshoots at virtually co-e,,, and goes up..... not a wise move sometimes online.

Although a bit gruesome they are excellent films... thx for posting.

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-25-2006, 07:22 AM
And too low to bail out.

BaronUnderpants
07-25-2006, 12:05 PM
Havent seen that clip before, thx.

Some of the segments look exactly like a DF server, things the "experts" say u should never ever do. IRL, u do whatever u can to stay alive.

And personally i tell myselfe that the pilot in the long/low turn, the one missing the rooftops by a hair, managed to craschland and or return home...i hope he did.

SeaFireLIV
07-25-2006, 12:21 PM
Yea, there are a lot of moves made in those clips that are `not done` in real life. Losing height advantage, losing energy advantage. Getting into the way of a friendly and nearly getting shot down (notice how the guncam shooter, didn`t even pause? maybe too quick to stop) and a friendly also shooting by the gun camera shooter at the bogey!

But there they are.

Tut, tut. I`ll bet some of those that survived got a bit of a telling off!

Ernst_Rohr
07-25-2006, 12:35 PM
Gun cam footage doenst show a lot of the "other" things going on.

For one, the shooter probably never even saw the friendly fly across his sight picture until it was too late. A very common reaction to combat stress is tunnel vision, where the shooter is so focused on his target that he excludes everything else around his target

You DO see that happen online. Some guys get so focused on the target they will follow them into unrecoverable situations. I watched a 109 pilot shoot up a guy in a LaGG, and he was so focused on getting a kill, he followed the LaGG into a stall, rolled inverted and pulled UP into the ground.

My dads squadron in Nam lost a couple of guys that way, they got target fixation, lost SA and crashed. Us armchair pilots miss about 80% of what the real folks were actually going through, so our criticising their shooting really isnt valid.

berg417448
07-25-2006, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Yea, there are a lot of moves made in those clips that are `not done` in real life. Losing height advantage, losing energy advantage. Getting into the way of a friendly and nearly getting shot down (notice how the guncam shooter, didn`t even pause? maybe too quick to stop) and a friendly also shooting by the gun camera shooter at the bogey!



Quite possibly "target fixation" with a bit of "information overload". I've read and heard many times about how pilots (and others) in stressful situations such as this "fix" on a target and actually never see much outside of a narrow range of vision or do not "hear" radio calls which appear quite clearly.

A bit like that video of a group of kids passing a basketball around and as you watch the video you are instructed to carefully watch the basketball and see exactly where it goes. At the end of the video you are isntructed to watch the same video again but htis time just watch what happens. Amazingly, you see a man dressed in a gorilla suit walks right through the middle of the action but you never noticed him the first time since you were completlely fixated on the basketball.
Now that I've explained the video it likely won't have the same effect but here it is any way:

http://viscog.beckman.uiuc.edu/grafs/demos/15.html

Sharpe26
07-25-2006, 02:21 PM
this was a compilation of German and Japanese planes getting shot down, right?

Rammjaeger
07-25-2006, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Sharpe26:
this was a compilation of German and Japanese planes getting shot down, right?

Yes, I suppose. Some of the guncam footage can be seen in "WW2 in color - Japan, part 2", IIRC. Some of the aircraft are apparently Japanese types. The landscape often appears to be Japanese, too.

Of course, I may be wrong, but...

the plane at 0:08 appears to be a Mitsubishi J2M3 Raiden. It is definitely not a German type, I think.

the plane at 00:24 appears to be a Fw-190, but I'm not sure.

00:39 - Fw-190D, perhaps?

01:18 - this appears to be a case of friendly fire(unintended hit on a P-51)

01:28 - I think that is a late Bf-109 variant

02:00 and 02:07 - Fw-190D?

02:50 - I think that is a late Bf-109 being pursued

03:35 - Bf-109 (?)

03:42 - the aircraft appears to be Japanese (rising sun on wings), maybe a Ki-84 or Ki-43-II

03:55 - also Japanese

04:15 - I'm puzzled. I guess it is Japanese.

04:25 - Bf-109?

04:38 - this is a very famous piece of guncam footage. IIRC this is an A6M2 Zero being hit during the Battle of Guadalcanal.

04:43 - can anyone identify this twin-engined aircraft? A Ki-46 maybe?

04:51 - apparently a P-51D

04:54 - this piece of footage is shown in "WW2 in color - Japan", part 2. I think these are Ki-43-IIs.

05:30 - definitely an IJA fighter

DIRTY-MAC
07-26-2006, 07:14 PM
bump

DIRTY-MAC
07-29-2006, 04:35 AM
aone atwoa abumpa

raaaid
07-29-2006, 06:38 AM
it seems that 30 mm are more powerfull in real life than in the game
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

raaaid
07-29-2006, 06:44 AM
ive also noticed that in real life scissors are deadly is the one who turns the most who wins

Kuna_
07-29-2006, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
Next time, just for fun, try something that I used to do to my students when I taught firearms to a police academy...run 100 yards full speed, drop down and do 20 pushups and THEN go draw your weapon and try to shoot at and hit a moving target accurately. It is altogether a different experience when your breathing is heavy, your heart is racing and your muscles are tired and there is sweat in your eyes.

Is that from a prone, sitting, kneeling, or standing position? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Usually standing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also we may try simulate shooting under G forces, after doing everything you guys mentioned, one should grab rucksack filled with lets say 80kg (that would be like... woo hoo whole 1G!) and wear it to simulate shooting in turn.
Even that isn't tough like in the air... person doesn't feel the same adrenaline and fear.

I suppose it's not without reason why the fighter pilots were selected among people in best physical condition.
About mental... well you can forget about that one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

This is where this game is so unrealistic. You can perform 10 heavy high speed turns 'n loops injured and after that shoot like nothing happened before. Pilot condition is completely ignored.

-HH- Beebop
07-29-2006, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Kuna_:
....I suppose it's not without reason why the fighter pilots were selected among people in best physical condition.
About mental... well you can forget about that one.
Actually you wouldn't want a fighter pilot that wasn't mentally stable. People with a "Top Gun" attitude just don't last in the ranks. There's a reason not to buzz the tower...you and your valuable plane could be lost. sure your showing skill and bravdo, unfortunately that's the kind that can get you killed. One slight mis-step and BOOM!, your gone. Mostly though you don't want someone who isn't discplined enough to be a total team player, who won't go off on their own to pursue a lone fighter at the expense of the squadron or bomber group you are protecting. Even the Flying Tigers, who probably had the most "maverick" types of flyers, remained well disciplined in the air. Chennault didn't tolerate grand-standing or being a show-off. In the air it was life or death, on the ground though it was a different matter.

My 2 kopecks.

SeaFireLIV
07-29-2006, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by -HH- Beebop:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna_:
....I suppose it's not without reason why the fighter pilots were selected among people in best physical condition.
About mental... well you can forget about that one.
Actually you wouldn't want a fighter pilot that wasn't mentally stable. People with a "Top Gun" attitude just don't last in the ranks. There's a reason not to buzz the tower...you and your valuable plane could be lost. sure your showing skill and bravdo, unfortunately that's the kind that can get you killed. One slight mis-step and BOOM!, your gone. Mostly though you don't want someone who isn't discplined enough to be a total team player, who won't go off on their own to pursue a lone fighter at the expense of the squadron or bomber group you are protecting. Even the Flying Tigers, who probably had the most "maverick" types of flyers, remained well disciplined in the air. Chennault didn't tolerate grand-standing or being a show-off. In the air it was life or death, on the ground though it was a different matter.

My 2 kopecks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, and most mavericks in real life (if they lived long enough), soon realised their life lasted longer with backup then breaking away and doing their own thing against orders.

Even then most Mavericks were a rarity, too many pilots valued their lives to do something that would put them out on their own.

Unlike online.