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tomtheyak
05-30-2007, 11:53 AM
I'm looking for some info on these bad boys; trying to discover if the view that some people have that the 109s and 190s tested by the RAF were actually 'nerfed' in some respects, with regards to battle damage, fuels etc.

If any one has any sources, particularly regarding the difference between allied octane petrols and the German stuff (particularly in regards to synthetic which was more prevalent in use from '43, yes/no?) or can point me in the right direction, that'd be cool.

So far have found that 2 of the 190s and a 109G used by the RAF landed completey without battle damage of any kind; the first 190A-3 landed in RAF Pembury on the evening of the 22st June 1942, the pilot Arnim Faber, short of fuel and believing himself to actually be landing at a French airfield.

The 2nd on 17th April 1943; an Fw190A-4/U8 of SKG10 dispatched as part of an experimental moonlit night raiding force, was again lost and low on juice landed at, this time, RAF West Malling in Kent.

The 109 I refer to is G-6/U2 (that's right, the underwing gondola gun carrying variant) also landed low on petrol on the night of 21st July 1944 after a 'Wilde Sau' patrol over the invasion area, put down at a Belgian airfield... only to discover it was RAF Manston!
This a/c, Werk Nummer 412951, is the aircraft that was used in the comparative trials against the Spitfire IX, XIV, and Mustang III.

A 2nd also crash-landed on the same airfield that night.

Others, damaged but put back into testing include Wk-Nr 7232, a 109F-4/B which belly landed on Beachy Head on the 20th May 1942 after sustaining light flak damage attacking a corvette in the Channel. She flew consistently in RAF hands through to the wars end; most of the others were lost in accidents.

'Black 6' property of the MoD here in UK was acquired from the Western Desert, but I have no idea when or how; thats one for me to investigate further!

Any info you can share would be cool!

faustnik
05-30-2007, 12:03 PM
Tom,

if you post a thread about the Fw190s here:
http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=F...s&file=viewforum&f=8 (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=8)

...you will get some answers.


*****************

In regards to the Fw190s captured and tested by the RAF, they were in excellent shape and well maintained. You can see this in the side-by-side testing done by the RAF and in the works of Cpt. Brown. These Fw190s performed to a very high level.

There were concerns over fuel and high rpm knock, but, the LW themselves had issues with this in early 1942. There were some other issues, like aeleron adjustment, where the Fw190s were really touchy.

RAF test pilots loved these planes and I'm sure they were VERY well cared for.

tomtheyak
05-30-2007, 12:09 PM
Thanks Faust, will check.

Philipscdrw
05-30-2007, 12:31 PM
Coincidentally, Kristorf has published a Fw190A4 skin depicting one of those captured Fw190s...

available from Flying-Legends here (http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/download.php?id=5977), Mission4Today here (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&c=226), thread discussing it here (http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2223718&page=1).

faustnik
05-30-2007, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Coincidentally, Kristorf has published a Fw190A4 skin depicting one of those captured Fw190s...

available from Flying-Legends here (http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/download.php?id=5977), Mission4Today here (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&c=226), thread discussing it here (http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2223718&page=1).

That is a beautiful skin, will download!

Thanks for posting. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

John_Wayne_
05-30-2007, 12:55 PM
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200302/ai_n9204393

faustnik
05-30-2007, 01:20 PM
Nice article. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

From the article:

Len Thorne--one of the surviving test pilots at the AFDU. Len, now in his eighties, remembers his flights in this machine well: "Having mastered the techniques of takeoff and landing, I thoroughly enjoyed the eight months of the assignment. The high cruising speed, well in excess of 300mph, compared very favorably with the Spitfire and was similar to the Merlin-engine Mustang, the Thunderbolt, Typhoon and Tempest. The cockpit was roomy and well laid out, and the teardrop canopy gave excellent visibility. In my estimation, the Fw 190 A-3 is classed with the Spitfire VIII or IX and the Mustang III. It was one of the best fighters of WW II."

RAF test pilots loved the Fw190 more than the LW did. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's kind of funny.

JG14_Josf
05-30-2007, 01:57 PM
RAF test pilots loved the Fw190 more than the LW did.

That is funny; who speaks for the LW?

FW-190 AAF NO. EB-104 (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/eb-104.html)

Synthetic fuel in Germany (http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/tech_rpt_145_45/rpt_145_45_sec2.htm#Engine%20Testing)

RON # (http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=124)

David Lednicer study (http://us.share.geocities.com/hlangebro/J22/EAAjanuary1999.pdf)

3 Cannon 109G-6 (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/109gtac.html)

Eric Brown's FW-190 report from Wings of the Luftwaffe (http://www.pbase.com/chrisdnt/eric_browns_190_report)

British WWII wartime test trial report (http://www.pbase.com/chrisdnt/190_tests)

Wings of the Luftwaffe (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wings-Luftwaffe-Eric-Brown/dp/1853104132)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ADG96HJ3L._AA240_.jpg

Fw190 in combat Alfred Price (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Focke-Wulf-190-Combat-Alfred-Price/dp/0750925485/ref=sr_1_1/026-9071233-2319631?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180554929&sr=1-1)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HJ0T7WTVL._AA240_.jpg

Kurfurst__
05-30-2007, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by tomtheyak:
'Black 6' property of the MoD here in UK was acquired from the Western Desert, but I have no idea when or how; thats one for me to investigate further!

Any info you can share would be cool!

109G-2/trop, 'Black Six'.
http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Tactical_trials/109...T109Gtrop_tests.html (http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Tactical_trials/109G2_britg2trop/MET109Gtrop_tests.html)
http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Tactical_trials/109...9Gtrop_WdimPerf.html (http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Tactical_trials/109G2_britg2trop/MET-109Gtrop_WdimPerf.html)

I believe it was the same a/c was tested as '109G' in the AFDU's trials vs. Mustang III and Tempest V.
There was also an 109F-2 captured after belly/emergency landed in England, propeller damaged, engine was reported to be in poor shape.

Bf 109E-3, WNr 1304, captured by the French in 1939, who noted some engine problems (mixture iirc) given over to the Brits who tested it against Spit, Hurri, Defiant in 1940. Conclusion was that all domestic types were superior, even the Defiant. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

French performance trials with the aircraft.
http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Tactical_trials/109.../french_109e_tt.html (http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Tactical_trials/109E_FrenchCEAMtrials/french_109e_tt.html)
http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Performance_tests/1...9e_performanceT.html (http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Performance_tests/109E_French_trials/french_109e_performanceT.html)

In 1941 it seems there was another 109E being tested against RAF, this time the tone of the trials appears to be more balanced (we're after BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). Forgot the of that onewerknumber...

Does anyone have more info on that F-4/B, British tests done on it perhaps... ?

Basically, all British trials (and American evaluations, which for the most part only repeated British reports) that are widely quoted appear to be based on these aircraft's tests :

Bf 109E-3, WNr. 1304 (the French one); had engine troubles

Bf 109F-2 that crashlanded and was restored, then crashed again before serious trials could be made (short evaluation was made though); had engine troubles

Bf 109G-2/trop, 'Black Six', being a tropical version with filter, having a splintered propellor, somewhat sticky radiator flaps.

Bf 109G-6/U2 : Some Nachtjagd machine, appearantly quite OK except for the gondies burnening it. Powers used in the tests are anyone's guess. The /U2 version supposed to be fitted with GM-1 for high altitude, yet this aircraft was a perfectly ordinary G-6 from it's description (re-conversion?). Crashed late 1944.

Xiolablu3
05-30-2007, 05:05 PM
ALl I can say with my limited knowledge on the subject is that the Bf109G tested against the Tempest/Mustang and Spitfire is certainly underperforming.

There is something seriously wrong with that plane, or there is just not enough information about just why its got such a pooor turn rate. Either the pilot was too scared to push the turn into the slats, or somehting else was wrong.

It should have a low speed turn very similar to the Spitfire and far better than the P51 or the Tempest. I cannot believe that even with 2 underwing 20mm's, it would damage the turn performance SO much. Think about SPitfire Vc2 with 4x20mm cannons instead of 2, there was barely any difference in turn rate, I believe? I would have thought that 2 small underwing bombs on a fighter would cause much more problems and drag than 2x20mm gondies.

Best to scrub that plane out of the tests completely. The results go against every other test available.

One more point is that when Allied planes are often quoted as say '40mph faster than the FW190', they are often talking about the captured FW190A4, even tho the year may be 1944 and FW190A8's are common on the frontline.

Philipscdrw
05-30-2007, 06:04 PM
I think it's interesting that the Corsair was reported to be 20mph faster than the Hellcat, yet when they were flown side-by-side, they reached the same speed, but the Hellcat's ASI was under-reading (or the Corsair's was over-reading) by 20mph due to inadequate pitot/static-port positioning...

Makes me wonder how valid these reported speeds are. How do they know the ASIs are giving correct readings, and if they're not using the ASI then how are they measuring speeds?

Note: I'm not trying to argue for or against xyz aircraft or research, I'm not skilled or observant enough to appreciate even a 50mph difference, just trying to work out if these continuous debates about aircraft speeds aren't a complete waste of time?

Xiolablu3
05-31-2007, 12:58 AM
I htink they are definitely useful, but when its obvious that a plane is underperforming, as in the BF109G in the turn tests, we should strike it off the test immediately.

Also the 'conclusions' each side come to should not be taken seriously.

The RAF coming to the conclusion that the Defiant was a better aircraft than the Bf109, and the Germans doing the same thing and judging the Bf110 as a better fighter than both the Spitfire and the Hurricane.

Both conclusions where seriously flawed.

Its good to have these captured plane tests from both sides, but (rightly)there will always be much debate around them.

It takes a lot of chat and 'chewing the cud' to get a clearer picture of exactly how they stacked up against each other. Even then we will never have all the info, so arguments will continue depending on which 'side' you support.

Probably better to choose RAF SPecs from Farnboruough and Luftwaffe Specs from Rechlin. ALthough then we are missing vital info like which plane outturned, outdived and outrolled the other at various speeds.

Thats when WIngloading and powerloading info comes into play to try and fill in the gaps.

luftluuver
05-31-2007, 03:11 AM
captured LW a/c

AM - The Air Ministry Numbers

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?s=6d...38513f1&showforum=61 (http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?s=6d122d32240bd99a7327749ca38513f1&showforum=61)

RAE Farnborough & other UK Serials

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?s=6d...38513f1&showforum=62 (http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?s=6d122d32240bd99a7327749ca38513f1&showforum=62)

The Unknown Captive Luftwaffe

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?s=6d...38513f1&showforum=72 (http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?s=6d122d32240bd99a7327749ca38513f1&showforum=72)

Brain32
05-31-2007, 03:40 AM
Nice links luft, however one has to be registered to see them...

John_Wayne_
05-31-2007, 04:46 AM
So register.

If Luft gave you directions to a restaurant, would you expect him to eat a meal there for you? Sheeesh!

Brain32
05-31-2007, 04:49 AM
I am a registered member there, why do you think I said those were nice links? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

John_Wayne_
05-31-2007, 04:53 AM
Maybe you like the font or the color. Bear with me, I'm in a bad mood today and you were unfortunate enough to cross my sights. http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif

SUPERAEREO
05-31-2007, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by tomtheyak:

'Black 6' property of the MoD here in UK was acquired from the Western Desert, but I have no idea when or how; thats one for me to investigate further!

Any info you can share would be cool!


http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/45410763/m/1911019854/inc/-1

Philipscdrw
05-31-2007, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by John_Wayne_:
Maybe you like the font or the color. Bear with me, I'm in a bad mood today and you were unfortunate enough to cross my sights. http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif

Ahh, so that's how blue-on-blue incidents occur... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif