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View Full Version : Debunking "unbeatable" planes.....



Jumoschwanz
02-22-2005, 08:29 PM
There are none in this sim. There are some darn good pilots who know how to use thier heads though, and this makes them a cut above most.

IN every patch and incarnation of this sim since day one there have been planes called uber, but there have also been virtual pilots who these planes were not a problem for becuase they had the smarts and natural ability to find solutions to the puzzle.

If you know the performance characteristics of the different planes, you can find something they cannot do and alter your tactics and plane choice and use it to your advantage. Whether the server settings are cockpit on or off this is what you have to do.

The Supermarine Spitfire is surely a good and competent aircraft with an all around potential equal to anything. But it is not unbeatable and not uber. It just happens to be popular to fly and there are a lot of good pilots flying it. If these pilots switched to the Hurricane MkI they would do very well in it too and there would be talk about how uber it was too.

A case in point:

I recently went on a cockpit-on server with icons enabled. The plane set was unlimited so there were lots of La-7s, P-51s, Ki-84s and Spits. My plane of choice was the 1940 109E4. I shot down Ki-84s, Spits, La-7s,Zeros and Mustangs with this craft. I probably shot down a dozen of these craft anyway and was only shot down twice myself. I was able to do this by using my crafts strengths against the other crafts and pilots weaknesses. The other craft were faster, and their pilots flew them around fast of course. Whenever one got on my tail all I had to do was turn out of the way and let them go by then turn back on them. Then when they saw a tracer or two go by they would panic, forget they were in a much faster plane and try and outmanuever me at low speed. They wasted their planes advantages and lowered themselves to my level. They pi$$ed away thier alt advantages and speed advantages and the advantage they had in machinery and got shot down. The emil was slow, so I would take time to climb to alt and then zoom down on the fast late planes thus taking away their speed advantage too. The Emil also has great all around visibility that can be used to better advantage in a slow dogfight than the late 109s, and on and on.....
I was so succesful, someone else jumped into the same model 109E on the other team and they shot a fast plane with a dumb pilot down right off the bat, and someone typed over the chat "Emil Power!".

I shot down tons of Spits while they were trying to climb away from the Japanese Zero, once again a matter of misusing the abilities of thier aircraft.

On another server I got on the tail of a YP-80 at over 6000 meters alt in a 109E and hit it with my cannons. Nothing to do with the aircraft at all.

So it is not any particular plane that ensures success with its speed or turning ability, what insures success is knowing what the different types of planes will and will not do, and what you as a virtual pilot can and cannot do and putting them together and having some fun with it.

I have spent most of my time over the last three+ years flying this sim in the vertual seat of the 109 series of german fighters. I am not by any stretch the best 109 pilot out there at all, but I know how to do a few things and make a few shots in these planes and I am comfortable in them. I can probably do as well or better in the crumiest 109 than I could do in the best Spit just becuase I would be sticking with what I know.

So that is my two cents. You can dominate any server in any craft if you know what to do with it and yourself. There are no uber planes, just uber pilots. S!

Jumoschwanz

FI_Willie
02-22-2005, 08:48 PM
Very nicely said. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Thanks.

Bearcat99
02-22-2005, 09:11 PM
I agree with you 100%. There are no planes I fear in this sim..... just some pilots Id rather avoid when and where possible.

WTE_Dukayn
02-22-2005, 09:15 PM
I used to fear some planes, mostly because I didn't know how to beat them. Now I don't bother fearing them and just do what I can. If I get shot down, well resurrection is just a Refly button away.

Badsight.
02-22-2005, 09:21 PM
PFFFFT

you think your going to compete in a Emil against a LA-7 in a DF , LOL i guarantee you wont last more 540 degrees of turning till your a falling flaming wreck

there is better planes than others & when you get 2 really experienced players squareing off it comes down to the plane

for example , you really expect me to believe that at 8K your going to beat me in a Corsair if you were stuck in a Yak-3 ? the difference in performance there means your going get Owned REALLY quick
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There are none in this sim <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>PFFFFFT

Jasko76
02-22-2005, 09:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
PFFFFT
you think your going to compete in a Emil against a LA-7 in a DF , LOL i guarantee you wont last more 540 degrees of turning till your a falling flaming wreck
PFFFFFT <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PFFFFT

Nobody expects to see Emil pitted against La-7. I'm sure I can beat Schumacher around Monza if I drive his Ferrari F1 and he drives my Mazda.

No need to make extreme comparisons, right?

p1ngu666
02-22-2005, 09:33 PM
yep, gotta love **** planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and ppl who turn..
got a couple of la7's yak3p in a couple of brief stints in g50, and cr42 (didnt drop my bombs in cr42 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VW-IceFire
02-22-2005, 09:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
PFFFFT
you think your going to compete in a Emil against a LA-7 in a DF , LOL i guarantee you wont last more 540 degrees of turning till your a falling flaming wreck
PFFFFFT <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PFFFFT

Nobody expects to see Emil pitted against La-7. I'm sure I can beat Schumacher around Monza if I drive his Ferrari F1 and he drives my Mazda.

No need to make extreme comparisons, right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pfft....do you know how many La-7 pilots don't know a thing about their plane despite it being all that they fly.

The original poster is correct. You can, given sufficient performance leverage, beat any plane with virtually any other plane. The myth of the uber plane that nobody can beat even if it has the newest of new pilots is simply bogus.

We've seem some wacky things with the FM's before but I haven't seen any of that in recent times and I certainly have not had trouble with any one plane.

Now there's a bunch of pilots that I'd rather have on my team. But it doesn't matter if they were flying I-16s or B-239s or FW190s or Hellcats, they'd scare the **** outa me because I know that they know what their doing.

Badsight.
02-22-2005, 09:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
No need to make extreme comparisons, right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>did you not read the original post ?
try reading it again & then mine

Badsight.
02-22-2005, 09:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
there is better planes than others & when you get 2 really experienced players squareing off . . . . . . . . . . . . it comes down to the plane <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WORD

LuckyBoy1
02-22-2005, 10:35 PM
Hhhhhmmm, note to self...

When Jumoschwanz or anyone who thinks like him joins server, hope he is on your side. If not, leave the game because he like, uses his brain! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ImpStarDuece
02-22-2005, 10:43 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Funny that you never see the REALLY good pilots whinning on the forums. Wonder why that could be? Oh yes, they are too busy getting virtual stick time and shooting people down than complaining.

Seriously, the best planes are the ones with the best pilots, not the other way around.

ImpStarDuece
02-22-2005, 10:43 PM
No really bartender, make that a tripple

ImpStarDuece
02-22-2005, 10:43 PM
Double post

LuckyBoy1
02-22-2005, 10:59 PM
Well, actually, unfortunately, one of the limiting factors is the hardware capabilities we have and how efficiently we use them. I play online with a young man who thinks he stinks at this game. He can't seem to lead the plane for nothing! The dirty truth is he is correctly shooting at a spot that his computer says the enemy plane is, but the host's computer, is bit too far ahead of him. Can he reduce eye candy to relieve this? Nope, he's already a rock bottom settings! So yes, there is a Uber plane, it it made by AMD and ATI! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

WUAF_Toad
02-22-2005, 11:34 PM
Sorry LuckyBoy1 but hit detection is client side and that means your friend will need to lead more. That's why when you watch someone with 500+ ping shoot, it looks like they're spraying bullet 300m behind you. You think this guy is crazy but your plane will start to smoke and you wonder what happened.

carguy_
02-23-2005, 01:41 AM
Total BS.A cheapo way of proving to be someone of better flying skills in a plane like Spitfire.


Don`t ever take DF servers into account.

If this all you say is true then constant campaign loss by LW means that every single LW pilot who participates in online wars such as VOW,VEF,BW is a loser and a terrible pilot.

However when LW gets equal planes to allies we kick a$$.

This was never true and will never be true.

Jasko76
02-23-2005, 02:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
No need to make extreme comparisons, right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>did you not read the original post ?
try reading it again & then mine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My apologies! I should have been sleeping when I wrote that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Bloody insomnia!

tigertalon
02-23-2005, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
there is better planes than others & when you get 2 really experienced players squareing off . . . . . . . . . . . . _it comes down to the plane_ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WORD <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My words exactly!

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-23-2005, 06:48 AM
A good pilot knows HIS plane and his opponents plane and does his best to control the rules of engagement. The planes DO make a difference mostly in firepower. All I need is a short squirt when I have a mk108 but more like a 2-3 sec burst in a Pony or jug (although my chances of a PK are greater with the M2).

Being able to maneuver my airplane is important, but being able to deliver a "killing" blow in a short window of opportunity is priceless. I fly every plane in the sim, but lean towards the Allied planeset most of the time. The only real exception is if I'm bomber-hunting.

Jumoschwanz makes a good point that's held true since day one....It's the pilot, not the plane...but a good plane helps...be sure.

TB


btw Schwanzie, when you gonna get broadband out there in the boonies...we miss you.

Jumoschwanz
02-23-2005, 01:55 PM
Thanks for the input all.


Badsight: I did not think I said at the start of the thread that an Emil is equal to a La-7. But Emils will shoot down La-7s and anything else if the pilot in them employs proper tactics and does not fight the more modern plane on it's terms. When I did so well in the Emil it was because I lured the newer planes and thier overenthusiastic pilots down to my alt and speed, or I used my alt advantage to zoom and boom them.
And the Emil is a great turn fighter, I out-scissored a good pilot in a Yak3p and shot his wing off one, and although the Emil will not sustain a tight turn for as long as the newer crafts, it will turn with them long enough to score the kind of hits that will disable the newer planes advantage. Also many planes I got in the Emil were near head on deflection shots that simply took out their engines.

And Thunderbolt, I am sure the only thing you miss about me being on greatergreen is that it is one less punching bag for you!
I am looking into broadband and might be back on some busy servers in the near future, and some I was never able to stay on at all.

shoot ya later,

Jumoschwanz

Daiichidoku
02-23-2005, 09:49 PM
bear in mind that, IMO, "the pilot no tthe plane" is accurate in the scenario the thread author described, with cockpit locked on (and I assume, no externals)

in a df server, cockpit off, with external views and padlock, the type of plane makes a much, much more significant difference, sometimes to the point where indeed, the better plane wins the day

WTE_Galway
02-23-2005, 10:48 PM
way back when I used to fly online I had a lot of fun downing planes in the p11c .. among other things it can spit S at 200 metres and survive

I managed to down a number of yaks and a P39 over a few sorties

smooh
02-24-2005, 12:16 AM
Hi I'm interested to see no one has mentioned the most important concept of team work. I'm a average flyer and with the help of teamates and good comunication it's quite easy to overwhelm a ace pilot or even a group of individauls. A good wingman is the key.

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-24-2005, 06:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by smooh:
...A good wingman is the key. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Without a doubt, a good wingman goes close to the top of the list for increased survivability...along with coms, altitude, time of day (Lord knows, there are times of the day where the "aces" come out to play), but for the sake of this thread and the discussion of Plane-vs-Pilot I'd still have to say it's the Pilot first...then the plane.


TB

Jumoschwanz
02-24-2005, 01:56 PM
Good tactics are valid whether the cockpit and icons are enabled or not.

If everyone knows where I am because there is a big pretty arrow pointing at me, I would still take a nice altitude advantage and a slower,older craft, than being at low alt in a faster craft.
I sure would not prefer to have a good pilot one or two kilos above my Spit or La-7 in any craft, even if it was a 1940 or older model.

And of course yes it helps to have a good wingman very much. But if you have a good altitude advantage the smart lone wolf can still attack two or more enemy craft succesfully.

There are a lot of good pilots flying this sim online. Many more than there were two or three years ago. But the majority still make many mistakes that are easily exploited and negate any advantage they might have because their craft is faster.
Most do not use any energy tactics or conserve their energy. After a head-on pass at an opponent I am always glad when they split S downward while I am climbing! Or they turn sharply after me and scrub off a lot of speed. Thank you very much. This happens very often.

Also a common mistake is someone will attack from a good altitude advantage and instead of zooming back up for another pass they stay down and start to turn fight, they have lost their advantage becuase first coming in at great speed they do not have the control the slow target has, then when they stay down with the target they have lost their energy advantage too, so they instantly lose all they had.

In summary, the novice places great importance on having a fast plane because he has nothing else to fight with, no tactics or combat smarts.
Down the road it becomes clear that the virtual combat pilots best friend and most deadly weapon is knowledge and smart tactics.S!

Jumoschwanz

geetarman
02-24-2005, 02:48 PM
It's funny, but as the years drag on and you're skills develop, you really begin to not fear plane or pilot. I fear poor situations!

That's why I like planes that can get out of trouble pronto (i.e. fast). I also like those that you can see from easily and those that make gunnery easier. I guess that's why I fly the Mustang so much, with it's good speed, good visibility and acemaker.

The only thing I'll add to this discussion is that some planes, no matter the skill of the pilot, don't leave you with as many options as others when the chips are down. I would agree though, that performance alone means nothing if a decent pilot gets himself into a very advantageous position vs. his target.

Bull_dog_
02-24-2005, 04:47 PM
After a little time at this I'd rate the following attributes in order of importance...

#1)Tactics Tactics Tactics

#2) Gunnery

#3) Manuevering ability

By tactics it means flying your plane where it is at its optimum or putting yourself in a position of advantage or getting out of a situation of disadvantage...No La can beat me at 6000 meters in my Fw but I can easily be taken at 2000 meters if I don't start with a significant advantage.

Tactics also means you understand the strengths and weaknesses you both your plane and that of your opponent....very, very important.

Gunnery...I underestimated this at first but I can't count the number of 2 or 3 on 1's that I can now get out of if I start even or with a marginal advantage because I don't miss my first shot....even if I don't kill, I can suddenly even the odds. If you don't miss, you will do much, much better.

Manuevering...this comes into play in avoiding head ons and making yourself a small target as you bleed your opponents energy. It also means efficiently picking energy or angles depending on the situation and exploiting it with your gunnery solution. This is important, but if I enter in a favorable situation, shoot well, and exit when appropriate manuevering is not real important.