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View Full Version : Dora still WAY overmodelled in roll at high speed



XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 08:38 PM
Salute

Did some quick tests.

190D9 tested at 1,000 meters at 800 kph indicated.

Rollrate is 130 degrees per second.

Rollrate should be in the range of 70 degrees per second at that speed.


http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1947/naca-report-868/42.gif



RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 08:38 PM
Salute

Did some quick tests.

190D9 tested at 1,000 meters at 800 kph indicated.

Rollrate is 130 degrees per second.

Rollrate should be in the range of 70 degrees per second at that speed.


http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1947/naca-report-868/42.gif



RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 08:40 PM
And what about the rollrate of the P39 ?!

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 08:42 PM
It's seem to be an F 104 in roll.

http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/mc202tav4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 08:50 PM
Atzebrueck wrote:
- And what about the rollrate of the P39 ?!
rate of the P39 ?!

What are you talking about? The P-39 roll rate is accurate and the P-39 fanboys still insist it is still a very hard plane to master. Its stall characteristics(so they say)will stall very easily just like before. Hmm Hmm...yep de's right.

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 08:54 PM
S!

In the patch readme file there's a list of planes that FM has changed. No 190 on the list /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:00 PM
Is that the only chart avaliable on the 190's roll rate? There has to be more sources. Are there any german test reports avaliable? For sure I don't feel comfortable with the roll rate we have now as it doesn't seem correct at all. The roll rate was more accurate in version 1.04.

The P-39 is funny, I had one follow me in a D-9 '45 from 1000m up to 6500m while I was performing a max performance climb. He had no problems keeping up with me. Its roll rate also needs a serious fix.

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:04 PM
VonSchlep wrote:
-
- Atzebrueck wrote:
-- And what about the rollrate of the P39 ?!
- rate of the P39 ?!
-
- What are you talking about? The P-39 roll rate is
- accurate and the P-39 fanboys still insist it is
- still a very hard plane to master. Its stall
- characteristics(so they say)will stall very easily
- just like before. Hmm Hmm...yep de's right.

Hmm according to the chart above, the rollrate is a bit too high /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (If the chart is not accurate, it shouldn't be used for the 190's rollrate, either).

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:06 PM
The P39 was a joke. It never stalled more than a Fw. It's able to follow a Dora???

Nic

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ZG77_Nagual
09-04-2003, 09:06 PM
Remember - we haven't seen any good data on the performance of the 39s in vvs service - except possibly the n1 - these birds were heavily modified from the D version in the chart above.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:13 PM
But they shouldn't reach rollrates of 200%, compared to this chart /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

I don't think that the VVS used own ailerons for the P39 etc..

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:18 PM
Let's stay focused on the 190.

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:22 PM
RAF74BuzzsawXO wrote:
- Salute
-
- Did some quick tests.
-
- 190D9 tested at 1,000 meters at 800 kph indicated.
-
- Rollrate is 130 degrees per second.
-
- Rollrate should be in the range of 70 degrees per
- second at that speed.
-

Wait a minute.
You rested at 1,000 m and 800 (eight hundred!?!?!?) km/h?!?!?
The table you show goes from 0 to 390 mph (= 630 km/h) km/h at 10,000 ft = 3,000 m.
There's something wrong with your test!!
You can't really compare with the table /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:23 PM
I mean tested, not "rested".
Sorry /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I AM NOT GOING TO INSTALL 1.1 "FINAL" PATCH
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The only surviving flightworthy MC.205 Veltro</p>

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:31 PM
- Wait a minute.
- You rested at 1,000 m and 800 (eight hundred!?!?!?)
- km/h?!?!?
- The table you show goes from 0 to 390 mph (= 630
- km/h) km/h at 10,000 ft = 3,000 m.
- There's something wrong with your test!!
- You can't really compare with the table

Not only that, but the chart indicates a "FW 190"

Buzzsaw, what makes you think this is a Dora?

But 130 degrees per second seems too fast, regardless.

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:34 PM
JV44Rall wrote:
-- Wait a minute.
-- You rested at 1,000 m and 800 (eight hundred!?!?!?)
-- km/h?!?!?
-- The table you show goes from 0 to 390 mph (= 630
-- km/h) km/h at 10,000 ft = 3,000 m.
-- There's something wrong with your test!!
-- You can't really compare with the table
-
- Not only that, but the chart indicates a "FW 190"
-
- Buzzsaw, what makes you think this is a Dora?
-
- But 130 degrees per second seems too fast,
- regardless.

Yeah, of course!

The only surviving flightworthy MC.205 "Veltro"
http://www.uploadit.org/files/040903-MC205_Flying_picc.jpg


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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:37 PM
and now the question of the day.
i can see Fw 190, but how you know which version of the 190 ?
can not see a "D " nor a "9 ".


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Message Edited on 09/04/0308:37PM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:47 PM
I hope you all notice how good the P-63 is. Let's not whine when it shows up.

I agree with Buzz.The 190 still rolls too fast.

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:52 PM
Well let's just say the 190d needs to be overmodeled to keep it's relative performance to the overmodeled P47 on par with history.

Seriously you complain about the D9 being overmodeled (with lame proofs), and you don't mind if the P47 is?

How screwed is that?

Nic

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:53 PM
Just a quick D-9 '45 speed test. Topspeed at sealevel with MW50 and radiators on auto. 545km/h TAS. With closed radiators 602km/h TAS.

http://members.chello.se/unni/GK-2.JPG


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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:57 PM
A FW Whiner.........

You see overmodeled D9,but you not see La7 overmodeled?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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-- Winston Churchill --


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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:03 PM
robban75 wrote:
- Just a quick D-9 '45 speed test. Topspeed at
- sealevel with MW50 and radiators on auto. 545km/h
- TAS. With closed radiators 602km/h TAS.
-

near enough/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

0.0m

568kph > Start - u Notleistung (B4) - Take off/Emergency

615kph > Sonder - Notleistung (C3)- Special Emergency

640kph > Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor - (Special Emergency with Compressor as Base-Engine)

606kph > Sonder - Notleistung (B4) mit Laderdruckerhoehung mit MW50 u. 1.8ata.

549kph > Steig - u Kampfleistung (B4) - Combat/Climb



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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:06 PM
Nic,

What part of the P-47 is overmodeled? It still flys like a tugboat, and get's killed with a few mgs.

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:08 PM
Read in ORR that lowspeed roll has been overmodeled.

To be confirmed tho

Nic

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:12 PM
I want this!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

640kph > Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor - (Special Emergency with Compressor as Base-Engine)

Reno, here I come!!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/GK-2.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:36 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
- Well let's just say the 190d needs to be overmodeled
- to keep it's relative performance to the overmodeled
- P47 on par with history.
-
- Seriously you complain about the D9 being
- overmodeled (with lame proofs), and you don't mind
- if the P47 is?
-
- How screwed is that?
-
- Nic


Cmon mannnnn, P47 has been shafted in almost every flight sim it has appeared in especially in regards to roll rate. Can't specifally name souces(which will be a sore point with some replys I know) but I remember reading from P47 pilots that if it could only do one thing,the Thunderbolts ability to roll at high speed kept it competitive with German fighters. How else would 2 of the top scoring American aces (one of these being Gabby Gabreski) do so well in these things.

As far as everything else being overmodeled, I think too many people make too big a deal whats slightly too fast or slow as later models are concerned; the point being in WWII, pilots didn't really know what plane versions they were flying against; those who used THEIR aircraft to the best of its abilities and proper tactics could adjust and fight succesfully.

I doubt if Luftwaffe pilots were going around saying, "Bullsh*t!; that SpitfireIX is WAY overmodeled!!"

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:41 PM
Well some good points jung, but the original post was complaining about the D9 being overmodeled. Which is a pity, and I hope it will be made very accurate later on.

However the same people who complain of this don't mind when their favourite plane is overmodeled.

Basically those who love the P47 complain when the D9 is overmodeled and vice versa. It seems to me it's because they want an advantage in game and not on behalf of accuracy.

Nic

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 11:03 PM
Salute Huck and Niclas

I was the first to mention the P-47 being a little fast for a 50 lb stickforce at 400kph.

Of course, a P-47 pilot could apply more than 50 lbs, as seen by this chart which shows 60 lbs:

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-tn-2675/0054.gif


And we know the P-47's ailerons were not a full deflection at 400 kph.

So it is clear that it could roll faster given an increase in stickforce.

So in fact, we DON'T know the current midspeed rate is overmodelled.

In fact, the D22's rollrate is likely very close. The D10's is probably over.

Another thing we do know, is that the High speed rollrate of the P-47 continues to be UNDERMODELLED. So the plane has a handicap it shouldn't have.

On the other hand, we have a 190 which rolls faster than it should at both very slow and very high speeds. Ie. you have two areas where it is overmodelled and unlike the P-47, no areas where it is undermodelled.


RAF74 Buzzsaw

P.S. the plane which was tested for NACA was a 190A with no wing guns.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/capt-luft/bf110/us150051-02.jpg



So it should be very similar to the D9.




Message Edited on 09/04/0310:05PM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 11:08 PM
Ah but it did have wing bombracks if that is the one in the pic/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But I still do think the roll needs to be toned down on the FW.


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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 11:08 PM
RAF74BuzzsawXO wrote:
- Salute Huck and Niclas
-
- I was the first to mention the P-47 being a little
- fast for a 50 lb stickforce at 400kph...

Fair enough.

Anyway my only demand would be to have all planes behaving as they would historically. Nothing more nothing less.

If it means my fav plane is better (as I think it would at least compared to P47), fine, if it means it will be inferior, well fine too. After all I flew the D9 all the time when it was very undermodelled.

Nic

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 11:12 PM
Salute

No wingracks.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/capt-luft/bf110/us150051-03.jpg


Outer guns were not on this model. Inner guns were removed too, and replaced with equivalent weights.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/capt-luft/bf110/us150051-01.jpg



RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 11:25 PM
D9 had no possibily for outer gun so it's fair.

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