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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:05 PM
Dear pilots,

I am bringing you some information about my research into possibilities of improving the sound environment with regards to removing the infamous "sonar".

First of all I would like to thank Mr. Maddox for his unbelievable patience. We have exchanged many e-mails regarding the sonar/sound issues and his patience is truly admirable same as his knowledge of current technology and his devotion to his simulator.

What I found out is that sounds are as they are because COCKPIT SOUNDS and EXTERNAL SOUNDS are tied together and one can not be changed without other. In other words: if there is a change in cockpit sounds there is automatically a change in external view sounds as well.

So by lowering the volume of enemy engine sound in internal/cockpit environment the same enemy engine sound would be lowered in the external environment as well.

This would mean that if changes were made, the enemy engine sound in cockpit environment would be realistically low - almost unnoticeable (finally) and enemy engine sound in external view environment would be "unrealistically" silent or close to unnoticeable.

Both views´ sound environments can not be perfect with current technology available mainly due to the limited dynamic range of current sound cards.

By having one view perfect or close to perfect, the other view will suffer.

So what we have to do now is to decide which view is the more important to us, which one will be the perfect one and which one will have to suffer: cockpit view or external view?

Before you vote, please download and take a look at this little 3.5MB video:

http://193.179.236.40/kyza/p51_bye.avi

It should help you understand how (aproximately) loud is an enemy engine in your own cockpit when the enemy is VERY close to you...

There is also another 125MB video here showing how much you hear of a tow plane´s engine in a glider aprox. 50m behind the tow plane:

http://193.179.236.40/kyza/csl_jicin.avi

If you have any other videos with sounds...warbirds in formations...please post the links here...


Vote now please:

A - Cockpit environment sounds are more important to me and I am willing to accept unrealistically silent external environment sounds to have the realistic cocpit sound environment.

B - External sounds are more important to me and I am NOT willing to accept unrealistically silent external environment to get the realistic sound environment in cockpit.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:05 PM
Dear pilots,

I am bringing you some information about my research into possibilities of improving the sound environment with regards to removing the infamous "sonar".

First of all I would like to thank Mr. Maddox for his unbelievable patience. We have exchanged many e-mails regarding the sonar/sound issues and his patience is truly admirable same as his knowledge of current technology and his devotion to his simulator.

What I found out is that sounds are as they are because COCKPIT SOUNDS and EXTERNAL SOUNDS are tied together and one can not be changed without other. In other words: if there is a change in cockpit sounds there is automatically a change in external view sounds as well.

So by lowering the volume of enemy engine sound in internal/cockpit environment the same enemy engine sound would be lowered in the external environment as well.

This would mean that if changes were made, the enemy engine sound in cockpit environment would be realistically low - almost unnoticeable (finally) and enemy engine sound in external view environment would be "unrealistically" silent or close to unnoticeable.

Both views´ sound environments can not be perfect with current technology available mainly due to the limited dynamic range of current sound cards.

By having one view perfect or close to perfect, the other view will suffer.

So what we have to do now is to decide which view is the more important to us, which one will be the perfect one and which one will have to suffer: cockpit view or external view?

Before you vote, please download and take a look at this little 3.5MB video:

http://193.179.236.40/kyza/p51_bye.avi

It should help you understand how (aproximately) loud is an enemy engine in your own cockpit when the enemy is VERY close to you...

There is also another 125MB video here showing how much you hear of a tow plane´s engine in a glider aprox. 50m behind the tow plane:

http://193.179.236.40/kyza/csl_jicin.avi

If you have any other videos with sounds...warbirds in formations...please post the links here...


Vote now please:

A - Cockpit environment sounds are more important to me and I am willing to accept unrealistically silent external environment sounds to have the realistic cocpit sound environment.

B - External sounds are more important to me and I am NOT willing to accept unrealistically silent external environment to get the realistic sound environment in cockpit.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:10 PM
A...

...is my vote.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:11 PM
OK - I'll bite.

I vote "A" (cockpit)



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Die Stukas, die Stukas, die Stukas.

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:12 PM
I vote "A".

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:13 PM
B.

Don't buy Oleg's explanation for it at all.


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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:15 PM
B.......

"Nothing difficult is ever easy"

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:21 PM
I would really like a compromise between A and B, as I think both are quite important.I usually spend much time in externals, as I guess many people do also...

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:23 PM
Sorry, but I'd go for

"None of the above!"

I want it how it was when it was ok. In and out.

Ham_Tyler - the amazing human lawndart!

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:33 PM
A

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:37 PM
A

Maybe, if you fly with Externals, you may see the Advantage for you by hearing the Enemyplane and being able to avoid its Attack . I would have voted so to, Months ago. But sooner or later you will change to Full-Real , just because of the new Challenge and the completly new required Skills compared to flying with Externals. Then you will wish for the possebility to surprise the Enemy, and vote A. Believe me ....

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:39 PM
"B"

The audio-visual boundaries of this "game" in comparison to real life environment are already hard. I mean visibility and identification of enemy planes at medium to long distances, in-cockpit obstructions like inability to shift your head from side to side, up and down etc. So I am grateful for any hint of enemy presence or other plane in the vicinity without switching on icons or the need to use externals or padlock.

On the other hand, I would vote "A" if:
- this feature was switcheable on/off, reverting to original sound scheme.

How many sounds do you hear in the cockpit? Your own guns, your a/c's engine, some sound from cockpit instruments, the sound of heavy AAA like flak, wind buffet, sound of flaps and maybe few other sounds. What is so hard about making another switch in game options which will disable everything else? You don't want to hear other engines besides yours? OK. But you won't hear any other a/c on the RWY as well.

Message Edited on 09/10/0305:58PM by Erbriac

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:51 PM
A

-- Understanding is not required, only obedience --

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 05:10 PM
I don't think there is enough of a problem to warrant a change.

If forced to choose though I'll say B.

I do really think 'A and a half' would be a far better "solution" though.

S! Simon.
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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 05:57 PM
I think if it was my company Id sack the sound guy and either get someone else in, or outscource to EA Games whose sounds (in Medal of Honor) are spot on,-clear,crisp and precise without any nead for tweaking.I always get the feeling with IL2 that my speakers are stuffed with cottonwool.
If I have to choose I suppose A.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:06 PM
A

===
-mark
Bo.Deenamah

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:09 PM
a

JG14_Josf

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:32 PM
A

but it seems to me after v1.11 its not so ears biting, that ext sounds.. Oleg should simply set the attenuation at real zero in the game engine for all players.



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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:44 PM
A.

The choice is simple if the engine sounds destroy an important combat tactic in multiplayer.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:06 PM
-A- bcause I really enjoy bouncing and lately I am seldom able to bounce at all and if I do its usualy diving in the merge of a dogfight in progress, not unsuspecting foes enroute to their target.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:43 PM
A !

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:53 PM
Neither. Could I please have the sound from the original IL-2? Both internal and external were fine. Yes, I did play with cockpit and externals on in Il-2, all of the time.

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 09:30 PM
A


B is for wusses http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 10:41 PM
A

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 10:43 PM
I want ultra realistic both

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JerseyD
09-10-2003, 11:18 PM
I just want sound to work as well as it did in good old IL-2
Seems to me they keep tryng to cram 20 ounces of sound into a 10 ounce bag here.

I seriously think Oleg needs to shell out some cash and hire someone who specializes in sound/audio.

I'm no expert but as far as I can tell he's currently got someone or possibly afew people working on sound who most likely have very little to no experience in this field.

I wouldn't go to my barber to get a root canal any more than I'd ask my dentist to cut my hair.

I think Oleg needs to say "oh well we tried" "now it's time to call in the big guns"

Seriously Oleg, please hire an audio specialist


<Center>http://home.cfl.rr.com/jerseydevil/JerseyDevil's%20Frag%20Zone/Frag%20Zone_files/109chevysig.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/Sims/IL2/il2_skins_sports.htm)</center>

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Message Edited on 09/10/0306:33PM by JerseyD

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 11:24 PM
A

This is an easy one.



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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 11:31 PM
Oleg's explanation seems shady to me...

A.

Ronnie

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XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 12:19 AM
I played the original IL2 for the first time since FB came out last night and was totally amazed at how much better it sounded. Not only in quality but the individual aircraft sounds themselves. I really miss the powerful droaning sound of the 190's and the supercharger whine of the 109's. Now from inside the pit they both sound about the same and a whole lot more whimpy !

Of course we didn't have the weird doppler effect whining you get when you pan around an aircraft in the external views (thank goodness) Don't know why we can't go forward to the past since it seemed so much better !

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 12:26 AM
B.

I fly almost always offline, and it's cool to pass through a bomber formation and hear the roar of the engines. It's just... fun. Ear candy, as it were.

Nothing wrong with an ON\OFF option for this.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 01:26 AM
I'm having just a little bit of trouble believeing Oleg on this. I think he needs to outsource just this once, see if someone else can write better beta soundcode, and maybe hire the person full time if he can. Personally, I'd prefer A and a half, but if there's no other alternative, then it's A all the way.

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JerseyD
09-11-2003, 01:55 AM
"you gotta go backwards,to go onwards"

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XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 12:41 PM
I was told that dynamic range of current sound cards is too bad to ensure realistic cockpit sound environment and loud enough external sound environment in one sound engine.

So I proposed a compromise of decreasing the sound of enemy engine by at least 1/3 which could help at least a little bit and locking the attenuation to 0 and deleting the line from ini so that "sonar" lovers could not cheat and tweak their sonars to the best "far ranging" performance.

The switch in realism panel - realistic cockpit sounds ON/OFF - would be of course the best solution but that would probably require two separate sound engines and it would be of course lotsa work and because it is only "full real flying online pilots" (Only 5% FB pilots fly online and only 3% of them fly full real - I was told) who want this feature, it is simply too little demand to justify a change in an allready finished sim.

It is a shame that the sim was finished with such a serious bug as "sonar" that basically lessens its value by 100% as the "sonar" prevents FB pilots from using the most common air combat tactics of WWII days (quite common in WWI too) called "surprise attack". Any serious sim should make this tactics possible IMO. Any sim that does not make "surprise attack" possible can not be called a realistic one.

I tried my best to help but this is all that I could have done. I understand the reasons why it can not be done the way we would like it and it looks like we will simply have to live with it or hope that some little change will at least help us from the worst - meaning decreasing the enemy engine sound level by some reasonable part (compromise between offline and online comunity) and modifying the attenuation as I (after Jurinko´s advice) suggested.

If there is no such little change, all we can do now (in terms of sound/sonar) is wait (and suffer from sonar disease) couple years till the completely new sim Oleg is making now (expected release: spring 2005) because he said that everything in it will be even more realistic, than I suggested...

Cheers /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

,,,^..^,,,