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View Full Version : P40B as fragile as eggs.............



chris455
10-30-2004, 04:28 PM
...........wish I could say the same about the Val!
Thinking of doing a track to show what I mean,the P-40B and C are seemingly too vulnerable to gunfire. Instant engine death, control surface loss, PKs at first glance seem to occur a bit too easily.
D3A1 Val, on the other hand, seems able to take ALOT of punishment.
Still testing..........................

NegativeGee
10-30-2004, 04:43 PM
This (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=5021083432) thread will interest you I imagine.

To me they seem to have a tough structure, but the engine puts me in mind of the MiG 3's in IL-2 which were just about 1 hit lighters.

chris455
10-30-2004, 04:57 PM
Try this:
Set up a mission with yourself in a P-40B or C,
and attack a formation of 2-4 D3A1s.
See how well you do, & we'll compare notes.

NegativeGee
10-30-2004, 05:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Try this:
Set up a mission with yourself in a P-40B or C,
and attack a formation of 2-4 D3A1s.
See how well you do, & we'll compare notes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its even worse flyable than it is AI http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Controls
Engine
Fuel tank

All extremely vunerable to the Val's defensive fire.

Tater-SW-
10-30-2004, 05:48 PM
I just tried a few times in QMB vs 4 ace vals with no bombs, me P-40B, 100% gas. The got a fuel leak on me and all got to be sushi for the fishes for their trouble. It was hard to down them though, I made high-side passes on all of them, one at a time trying to break up the formation, then hunted them one by one. If I got black smoke, I moved on (all smokers caught fire after a bit and crashed).

I tried it a few times, and they did get my engine once, and some oil leaks. Am I supposed to let them shoot me and see what happens?

tater

mortoma
10-30-2004, 08:11 PM
Let's put it this way, I just got PF early today finally in Best Buy in Indianapolis. I saw your thread and with no practice in the P-40B, I put 3 ace Vals against me and off I went. I easily was able to down their fragile craft whilst only getting one or two non-harmful pings from their gunners. And two of them I had to shoot down just off the coast of their home QMB island with defensive ground fire all about me. I managed to evade all the heavy flak with no hits from it. Two of the Vals lit up like a molotov cocktails and the other on I must have got the pilot, he just went down to the sea as pretty as a picture. I didn't have to empty many bullets into any of them, but I'm a crack shot too. And I simply am good at avoiding gunner fire and know how to do it. You might just practice a lot more against bomber gunners is all. I have a track if you want to see it. Film at 11:00........

Tater-SW-
10-30-2004, 08:58 PM
It turns out the standard USN "high-side" attack is perfect for defeating AI tail gunners. You are parallel, ahead (he's at your 7 o'clock or so) and above the target. Execute a turn into the target where you see it when you turn. You'll be pointed behind him pretty quickly (since you are aimed where he was when you started), and when he's near your 3-9 line, you turn into him to shoot. All the while you are decending, but still above him.

You make kind of an S shape. Since you are constantly accelerating (your vector changes with time), the AI is pretty baffled. You can do any of the "normal" sim approaches as well (barrel rolls, etc) and those will work, too. I just found it neat the standard navy attack worked so well. (I practiced it in AEP with B-239s vs DB-4s painted like bettys, lol)

tater

chris455
10-30-2004, 11:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
Let's put it this way, I just got PF early today finally in Best Buy in Indianapolis. I saw your thread and with no practice in the P-40B, I put 3 ace Vals against me and off I went. I easily was able to down their fragile craft whilst only getting one or two non-harmful pings from their gunners. And two of them I had to shoot down just off the coast of their home QMB island with defensive ground fire all about me. I managed to evade all the heavy flak with no hits from it. Two of the Vals lit up like a molotov cocktails and the other on I must have got the pilot, he just went down to the sea as pretty as a picture. I didn't have to empty many bullets into any of them, but I'm a crack shot too. And I simply am good at avoiding gunner fire and know how to do it. You might just practice a lot more against bomber gunners is all. I have a track if you want to see it. Film at 11:00........ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mortoma, I'd be crazy to pass up a chance to see a track made by a Living Legend of The Air such as yourself. Please post one. You in a P-40B vs 4 Vals. Thanks! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

NegativeGee
10-31-2004, 11:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Mortoma, I'd be crazy to pass up a chance to see a track made by a Living Legend of The Air such as yourself. Please post one. You in a P-40B vs 4 Vals. Thanks! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too.... I think a couple of people missed your point chris455- the test is to actually get hit by the Val's to appreciate just how tin-foil the P-40B/C is.

mortoma
10-31-2004, 11:20 AM
I'm no living legend, just practice a lot!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif And no, the point is not to try and get hit, to see how the P-40 is a tin foil filled with gasoline. At least not for me, the point is to do as the pilots did in RL, to not get hit. I doubt many P-40 pilots deliberately tried to get hit with defensive gunner fire. I can fly for long periods of time and not get seriously hit by a gunner in this sim. But of course there are occasional miracle sniper hits that even I can't avoid. Did some of you really want to see my track?? I don't understand the big deal, just average flying that anybody should be able to
do. If there's a place that could host it, I could post it.

Carnage2681
10-31-2004, 11:21 AM
To the thread starter

Welcome to the world of a Me-109 Pilot.

Every hit splatters your window with oil, the sniper gunners use their Mark12 Phaser like a guided missile

heywooood
10-31-2004, 11:32 AM
mmmmm....eggs....

who likes omlettes?.... diced smoked ham, diced bell peppers, diced green onions and mushrooms and shredded jack and sharp cheddar cheese....ya gotta use 4 eggs and ya gotta saute thats right I said saute that other stuff before you pour the eggs in the pan...whoops, mines ready now. Yep...a few slices of avacado and tomato on the side....sweet.

chris455
10-31-2004, 11:37 AM
To NegativeG: you hit the nail on the head.

I have been flying all morning in the P-40B, and am comvinced that this may be one of the frailest craft ever to emerge from 1C. In R/L, the P-40 (all types except the L model which had little or no armor) were renowned for thier ruggedness.
Damage modelling is singularly the toughest thing to get right since the dynamics involved are so random. One A/C gets hit with 1 round to the oil cooler and goes in, another is literally peppered with rounds and remains aloft. I suppose all we can do is study the ballistics and destructive power of various munitions, the standard of construction of the ships themselves, etc, but the anecdotal evidence at least, regarding the P-40 overwhelmingly builds a case for a very tough plane. And this bird just isn't. I hope (and have faith)that Oleg will address it.

To Mortoma: I would like to see a track, I sincerely believe I could learn from your technique. Others too. But that won't change the fact that just because someone with your skill can avoid hits, that doesn't make consistently loosing your engine to 1 7,7mm round realistic- maybe we understand each other better now- and I'm looking forward to that track! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

chris455
10-31-2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
mmmmm....eggs....

who likes omlettes?.... diced smoked ham, diced bell peppers, diced green onions and mushrooms and shredded jack and sharp cheddar cheese....ya gotta use 4 eggs and ya gotta saute thats right I said saute that other stuff before you pour the eggs in the pan...whoops, mines ready now. Yep...a few slices of avacado and tomato on the side....sweet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heywood buddy-
Build one of those for me, would ya? I'm on my way over!
BTW- is this your way of saying that you don't have PF yet? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

heywooood
10-31-2004, 11:47 AM
yes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

It has shipped though - and I will have it wednesday... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif that'll have to do.

There is much omletteses at my place this morning, bro...followed by my own Victory Chili

...in honor of my Chargers wuppin' the Faiders
later today. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

chris455
10-31-2004, 11:55 AM
Well, I'm sure they'll win.........The ballgame, that is. The ensuing ruckus however
<<shudder>> <<flinch>> I can't say http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

ZekeMan
10-31-2004, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
To NegativeG: you hit the nail on the head.

I have been flying all morning in the P-40B, and am comvinced that this may be one of the frailest craft ever to emerge from 1C. In R/L, the P-40 (all types except the L model which had little or no armor) were renowned for thier ruggedness.
Damage modelling is singularly the toughest thing to get right since the dynamics involved are so random. One A/C gets hit with 1 round to the oil cooler and goes in, another is literally peppered with rounds and remains aloft. I suppose all we can do is study the ballistics and destructive power of various munitions, the standard of construction of the ships themselves, etc, but the anecdotal evidence at least, regarding the P-40 overwhelmingly builds a case for a very tough plane. And this bird just isn't. I hope (and have faith)that Oleg will address it.

To Mortoma: I would like to see a track, I sincerely believe I could learn from your technique. Others too. But that won't change the fact that just because someone with your skill can avoid hits, that doesn't make consistently loosing your engine to 1 7,7mm round realistic- maybe we understand each other better now- and I'm looking forward to that track! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whereas the P-40 is historically well documented as being a tough bird, so too were inline, liquid cooled engines documented as being vulnerable to the "golden BB". One hit from a rifle caliber slug in the oil or coolant lines was all it took, which is why ground attack missions were particularily hated.

Z

Chuck_Older
10-31-2004, 01:47 PM
So on one hand, they were tough planes, and on the other, the standard wisdom is always going to be the "you've got a liquid cooled engine and they can't take any sort of damage" argument.

And naturally, the fragile liquid cooled engine argument can always cancel out the toughness of the airplance. Sorta like rock-paper-scissors. Rock, good old rock. Nuthin beats rock. Poor, poor gullible Bart.

But in this case, bullet always beats cooling system, and any hit on the front of the aircraft must hit a criritcal part of the engine, which, as everyone knows, is just covered over every square inch of it's surface with critical, fragile parts and doo-dads.


The problem is that any hit does this. Always. It's not just for the P-40B or C, it's in other planes and is a weak spot in the DM

I am learning to cope with the speed issues in the H81A-2 and P-40B and C. I think they're great planes and I love to fly them.

the only way to make sure you don't lose the engine in a fight is to not get hit in the front at all. Which can be done. I'm having a great time bomber hunting in my H81A-2. Speed+45* of deflection=flaming Betty. But like Chris mentioned, the dive bombers seem very tough

peterm1
10-31-2004, 02:47 PM
How are the P-51 variants? I have found in FB that most versions are very susceptible to a bullet in the belly which immediately snuffs the engine. Does not flame up though. Perhaps its that **** Allison engine the early p-51s have in common with the P-40s. I hope this has been fixed as I find it makes them **** near unusable in any inercept role. (Line up on a bombers 6, then whack, a tail gunner gets a lucky hit and its "Say goodnight Gracie."

NegativeGee
10-31-2004, 02:55 PM
Been playing around with this a bit more, and have a few more observations to add.

The P-40B/C takes damage very easily to its three sets of flight controls (elevator, aileron, rudder) from defensive fire coming in from its front arc. The engine is very easily smoked and catches fire without much difficulty as well, and the fuel tank leaks easy (this is not surprising considering its location).

Now, I tried this with a 109 F-2 as well and it shares the same vunerability with regard to the engine- cooling system and oil are very easily damaged. However, the engine did not seem prone to catching fire at all despite multiple 7.7mm hits- this just tended to worsen the existing damage and give the black canopy of death (lol). No damage to controls or to the fuel tank (again this is not surprising due to its location), at least in the couple of times I tried it.

So the thing that seems to stand out is the ease with which the P-40B/C takes damage to its controls from fire coming from the front and why the engine catches fire so easily when compared to another inline engined fighter (I'd suggest you guys try some more of the inlines as well to see how they stack up).

chris455
10-31-2004, 03:04 PM
I too have observed total control surface loss in the P-40B/C far beyond what would be statistically expected.
Lots Of PK's when flying the P-40B/C also.