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View Full Version : 50s are a joke "online"



tweak26
12-16-2005, 04:45 PM
Useless online.Ok I fd up,they work ok offline but I get no satisfaction playing all alone.I'd be playing on a ps2 if that was the case.Call me a quaker.I found that they are very effective offline but online as others here have stated the lag keeps them from being effective at all.As an american flyer this pains me much.

berg417448
12-16-2005, 04:51 PM
Been there...done that...time to move along.

tweak26
12-16-2005, 04:59 PM
have you ever fired this weapon?no?pls save your trolling and up your post count elsewhere.

berg417448
12-16-2005, 05:09 PM
Try doing a forum search. This subject has been done 1000 times before. Old news.

tweak26
12-16-2005, 05:14 PM
Yeah in past versions.They were better in the last patch as a matter of fact.If its allready been done 1000 times whats that say about it.Just reconfirming it this 1001th time that they are screwed up.Also if its been done 1000 times why has no one corrected it by now?Lemee guess there are no 50 caliber mgs in russia but plenty of 7.62 ak47s.Which work better in the game anyway.I wonder why.

Siwarrior
12-16-2005, 05:25 PM
Probably your shooting Tweak http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

tweak26
12-16-2005, 05:26 PM
you mean all 5% of it?

MLudner
12-16-2005, 05:28 PM
Now, be nice!

Actually, if you hit what you're shooting at the .50's do considerable damage. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

The Russians do have .50 caliber machineguns, it's just that they call it 12.7mm. Look up DSHK, they are Russian .50 cals.

The .50's in the game do not sound like .50's, though; I'll give you that out-of-hand. The tracers aren't visible enough, either. But I have turned opposing fighters into confetti with them more than once, especially Japanese aircraft.

chris455
12-16-2005, 05:34 PM
The .50 are fine. It's the damage model of some AC that are off...........and before you ask, I have fired the .50. Many times.

Convergence is critical with most US A/C because they carry their armament in the wings.
Hit something @ convergence range with 6 .50s and watch what happens. Chances are you won't be disappointed.

Also

Lemee guess there are no 50 caliber mgs in russia but plenty of 7.62 ak47s.Which work better in the game anyway.I wonder why.

There ARE no AK-47s in the game, the weapon not having been fielded until after the period of history that the game covers. Hence no wayof telling whether or not they "work better". Wonder no longer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

III-JG27_DV8
12-16-2005, 05:34 PM
I think the *visible* damage, as you are shooting at a target, is deceiving.

From experience, I can tell you that having taken .2 or .3 tenths of a second burst from *experienced* pilots (guys that know convergence well and know the hit patterns), the fight in me was literally stolen away. My plane only left to crawl home.

Other experiences are against not-so-experienced pilots that begin to spray from exaggerated distances (like 1, .9, .8). I don't think they understand that the dispersion, at those distances, means I probably won't get blasted to pieces.

My experience shooting .50's tells me that you need to know when to shoot and always consider your targets silhouette before firing (larger silhouette, better effect).

I€m sure I say nothing new to you, but just maybe this is a reminder. J

Hydra444
12-16-2005, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by chris455:
The .50 are fine. It's the damage model of some AC that are off...........and before you ask, I have fired .50. Many times.

Convergence is critical with most US A/C because they carry their armament in the wings.
Hit something @ convergence range with 6 .50s and watch what happens. Chances are you won't be disappointed.

Finally,someone that thinks the same as me.The .50's are brutal when you get someone at or inside your convergence.I've seen many planes turned asunder while I've flown the P-47 all by simply getting in close.At close range,a short burst of .50cal fire can cripple (at the very least!) or break apart most any aircraft in the game.

danjama
12-16-2005, 05:46 PM
You Sux

chris455
12-16-2005, 05:47 PM
.I've seen many planes turned asunder while I've flown the P-47 all by simply getting in close.

I agree Hydra, somtimes I feel almost like I'm cheating when flying the Jug because instead of just 4, or even 6 .50s she has EIGHT. Can you say "overkill"?
Ouch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

tweak26
12-16-2005, 05:51 PM
Yes,but there have been to many times when I hit my target in the exact range of convergence and it's nothing but either smoke or flames.I have yet to see a wing come off in this version.Used to do it all the time in the last patch.That's more like it.Instead of little peices of debri you should see actual peices and parts come off.Let me remind you that this bullet is over have the size of a 20mm and can go through 2ft of concrete and destroy buildings.No bullet just goes strait through like they show in dev mode for this game.They explode and zigzag around.This causes things to break catch on fire and go flying around like shrapnel.And were not even talking about an HE round either.

MLudner
12-16-2005, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
You Sux

I said: Be nice, you whipper-snapper! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
Don't make me come over there with my cane!

SeaNorris
12-16-2005, 05:54 PM
Oh noes! P-51 not winning the war? Don't tell Mo-Zus

MLudner
12-16-2005, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by tweak26:
Yes,but there have been to many times when I hit my target in the exact range of convergence and it's nothing but either smoke or flames.I have yet to see a wing come off in this version.Used to do it all the time in the last patch.That's more like it.Instead of little peices of debri you should see actual peices and parts come off.Let me remind you that this bullet is over have the size of a 20mm and can go through 2ft of concrete and destroy buildings.No bullet just goes strait through like they show in dev mode for this game.They explode and zigzag around.This causes things to break catch on fire and go flying around like shrapnel.And were not even talking about an HE round either.

Shoot straight ..... for once .... you Army pukes....
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
I'm kidding. That's from a movie called Red Dawn.

If you just stitched them with a quick burst the damage might not be all that severe.

Brain32
12-16-2005, 06:00 PM
LOL you are one of those "mushroom guys". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Monty_Thrud
12-16-2005, 06:15 PM
Elvis...Little Richard..Eddie Cochran...Buddy..etc i love the 50's...

neural_dream
12-16-2005, 06:26 PM
The .50 are a little more difficult online than offline due to the lag. Except if you're talking offline; then it's definitely your shooting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

Bearcat99
12-16-2005, 06:50 PM
Like some said.. the best wayto test weps is NOT online. The .50s IMO are better in 4.02 than ever... you just have to make sure you hit what you are aiming at. I have set 109s on fire with a 1-2 second burst. Taken off wings.... I agree with what chris said.... on some of these planes the DMs are a tad too strong.... but hey.... It is what it is.... and I am not going anywhere or downpatching so.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Gibbage1
12-16-2005, 07:24 PM
For an interesting perspective.

http://www.gibbageart.com/files/M2HB.wmv

Fans of the MaDuce, enjoy! People who doubt the power of the .50 cal, enjoy!

Note a few things.

#1, this gun is on a 73lb tripod. Not mounted on a 10,000lb aircraft.

#2, its turning rock into chips. ROCK. Not aluminum, ROCK!!!!

#3, near the end, the guy firing lets loose on a LONG birst. All the hits land within a VERY small area. VERY VERY LITTLE SPREAD! Please note #1 again.

A .50 cal will go through an engine block and keep going. It can penetrate 1/2" steel face hardened plate easy. It can punch through a steel man hole cover and still have plenty of killing force. Its one bad-azzed gun, and its still being used today on top of US army tanks and vehicles.

LONG LIVE THE MA-DUCE!!!

chris455
12-16-2005, 07:33 PM
Tweak,
Study this track. I just made it after posting my last remarks in this thread. Admittedly, the visual results aren't spectacular (well, not until the target EXPLODES in a thousand pieces) but it still represents ONE BURST of .50 fire from a Jug, and it's effect on a Ki-43.

Many would argue that the 4.02 Ki-43 DM is a little on the "robust" side, compared to what we have been told about it's fragile construction, but nonetheless, Ma Deuce is still more than up to the challenge, even if only firing a single burst.
Enjoy!

one burst of .50 cal. (http://members.cox.net/miataman1/one_burst.zip)

white12
12-16-2005, 08:45 PM
I agree tweak26, the 50s' do seem to have been clipped. Or maybe.... and its just a thought... with realistic (and I hope you do) switched on the volume of projectiles is to great for complicated computataion and thusly some or many are dropped or not counted. Need proof? Set yourself up some C47s for target practice, then try drilling on one; just hold the trigger down with say a P47. Then try it with very short bursts. Remember to repeat the exp several times to confirm results; but I think you'll find what I did. I also think you'll find that with "realistic gunnery" switched off the 50s' work more like you would expect. For myself I leave it on realistic and get aggrevated often times, but, my anal retentive nature and love for the sim demand the "realistic" settings be on. So, if your conscience will allow it turn off realistic gunnery and get some!

Badsight.
12-16-2005, 08:53 PM
they are better than ever . full stop

danjama
12-16-2005, 08:54 PM
Nice Video!

Kuna15
12-16-2005, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Like some said.. the best wayto test weps is NOT online. The .50s IMO are better in 4.02 than ever... you just have to make sure you hit what you are aiming at. I have set 109s on fire with a 1-2 second burst. Taken off wings.... I agree with what chris said.... on some of these planes the DMs are a tad too strong.... but hey.... It is what it is.... and I am not going anywhere or downpatching so.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Agree 100%.
Anything that is hit with good .50cal burst will be badly damaged.
From point blank with proper convergence (around 200m and below) they are devastating.

Not so long ago I have made a few ingame tracks of .50s in action. Here is one
p47d_v_2xbf109g (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/offline/402__kunap47d_vs_2xbf109g_01.zip)

The only thing .50s are really lacking is desynchronising (on all gun platforms except p-40_M105P).

Kuna15
12-16-2005, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
For an interesting perspective.

The guy literally created a cave in that hill. Out of rocks. With one M2 only. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Thanks for video.

ImpStarDuece
12-16-2005, 09:49 PM
I think the balance of damage done by the M2 Browning is close to perfect, when compared to other weapons in the game.

That is an important provision. The relative hitting power of the M2 Browning is very accurate when you compare it to the damage done by other weapons in the game. The damage deal to targets may not be exaclty what we think it ought to be, but in comparison to other weapons in the game, the balance is quite correct.

Yes, there is no disputing that the 12.7x99 round is fast and powerful. Yes, there is no disputing that a battery of .50 calibre weapons (6 or 8) is very effective against any lightly armoured target such as an airplane.

However, you have to remember that a lot of the primary fighter weapons mounted on WW2 aircraft fired larger, heavier rounds, at similar velocities, with far more high explosive in the round.

Some web-site that might help with some informed discussion:

Rings P.R.O documents page (http://prodocs.netfirms.com/)

'Lunatic's' WWII Aircraft Gun Ballistics page (http://members.cox.net/rg_lunatic/gunpage/)

WW2 Fighter armament effectiveness essay (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm)

Guide to WW2 guns (http://www.ww2guide.com/guns.shtml)

WW2 Gun data tables (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-fr.html)

Kuna15
12-16-2005, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by chris455:
Many would argue that the 4.02 Ki-43 DM is a little on the "robust" side, compared to what we have been told about it's fragile construction, but nonetheless, Ma Deuce is still more than up to the challenge, even if only firing a single burst.
Enjoy!

I watched your track and yes .50s are devastating to Hayabusas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
However I had problems with F2A vs. Hayabusa -- I keep hitting him from dead six but no fire. He spirraled and crashed in sea eventually (lost only left aileron) in spite of the fact that he received a lot of hits.
I have noticed that .303s are however setting them alight faster (firing from Hurricane MK.2b is no wonder but still)

I am currently flying Hayabusa in offline campaign and 99% of my deaths are by frying in the cockpit (in fights versus early P-39s and early P-40s, they have only 2x12,7mm in nose iirc)

Gibbage1
12-16-2005, 10:02 PM
There are tradoffs in the two gun platforms. 20MM's fire slightly slower, have a bigger arc terjectory, and loos KE faster then the .50 cal. A P-51 with 6 .50 cal's is much more powerfull then a 109 or Yak with 1 20MM and 2 12.7MM guns since not only is the weapons doing more damage, but your throwing out a LOT more projectiles and have a much greater chance to hit. You also generally have more trigger time.

A battery of .50 cal's I think is a VERY good platform for shooting down fighters. Since the US did NOT need to intercept bombers, they had no need for canon armed aircraft. Better then the Yak-3's or 109G's loadout.

Now when your shooting at bombers, then you will need 20MM or even bigger. Like the Luftwaffe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It all depends on the given task. But if that task is fighting fighters, give me a few .50's any day. 6 .50's is even compairable to a Spitfires 2x20MM and 4x .303 loadout.

Jetbuff
12-16-2005, 10:31 PM
Gibbage, looking at the video, I come to a completely different conclusion. Particularly witness how when that tree stump is hit the first few times nothing really happens. Unlike the rocks, (I saw a lot of loose dirt too by the way) which are more constant in angle towards the bullet trajectory, the trunk's curve means that not all bullets are equally effective. Some seemed to glance off or alternatively go right through. with minimal disturbance to the actual structural integrity of the stump. On the other hand, at least one of the bullets seems to have struck dead center, spun and wreaked terrible havoc on the trunk. This is quite comparable to the in-game characteristics of the 0.50, namely that effect is a lot more variable than with explosive shell cannons and that dead 6 shots, due to the high angle of incidence, are least effective.

Is the 0.50 better or worse than real life in-game? I wouldn't know definitively and neither would anyone else imo, but I find it reasonably plausible. Not only do I find the damage profile believable, I can see why it was preferred by the US: it allowed anyone to at least hit the target and the aces to shred planes to bits. Compare with the MK108 - great punch and excellent dispersion characteristics but the almost lob-like trajectory, limited ammo and singular/dual mounting means that it takes some time to learn how to even hit the target in the first place.

When you consider how much time we spend in this sim, dying, reflying and learning, it is obvious that the cannons would rise to dominance because once you learn to shoot straight the advantage of spray and pray becomes less important. I guarantee you that most simmers know more about air combat and gunnery than even some veteran WWII pilots.

The same kind of argument explains a lot of luftwhiner attitudes. They come into a game where there is relative parity in skill levels and wonder why they cannot match the early success of the LW (bloodied in the Spanish Civil War, Poland and France) versus the relatively "noobish" Allies. If you want to experience being Galland or Hartmann or what have you, at least one requirement (there are others of course) would be to find a server with a constant supply of new players who just got the game 3 months ago, still learning the ropes, struggling to just navigate properly and who never get the opportunity to learn from their mistakes - one virtual death and their disk explodes!

We all know this but seriously underestimate or ignore it's impact on our perceptions of IL-2's disparity from historical record. Instead we blame the FM, DM, anything but the fact that there is ZERO simulation of all the factors around the combat like production quality, pilot skill, individual G-resistance, numbers, tactical and strategic concerns, fatigue, fear and even psychological factors. e.g. how exactly can you be sure that the spit a 109 pilot "out-turned" and shot down in one of his recollections was not being piloted by a guy who just ate bad eggs for breakfast? Or how do you know the plane "shredded" by a bragging Ace's 0.50s did not already have its airframe stressed from the last sortie?

A little perspective is all...

VW-IceFire
12-16-2005, 10:42 PM
I think we've got the .50cal to a pretty good stage right now. I think the problem that were having is with the fidelity of some and all of the aircraft involved.

Fire the .50cal at some types of aircraft and it behaves as expected. Other types seem to soak up hits with unpredictable results. Ultimately I think, however, that the biggest problem is this: Not everything is yet modeled in the DM department.

What am I talking about? How about ammunition or radiators. Lots of damage done to Bf109s that you see in gun camera footage involves damage done to the radiator...you see lots of smoke pouring out and presumably a good deal of damage has been done to the 109. At the moment only the IL-2 can sustain radiator damage...thus this never happens.

Ammo storage...seen the clips were FW190s explode because of some of the hits landing on the ammunition box in the wing? Boom...

The .50cal is mostly peircing a target and doing damage to whatever is inside. If nothing is there then it does what it does to the skin and passes along through. Therefore, the .50cal is modeled accurately in terms of physics of the game engine but not completely accurately in terms of what is not presently available in the game engine.

My feeling is that Oleg should, in circumstances where it is warranted, modify the way things work (this could be sound, flight, damage model, etc.), in order to correspond to an overall view of reality rather than trying to make game physics work 100% of the time. But thats just me...maybe Oleg already has to an extent on the FM/DM (I think sound could be better utilized but thats another story).

chris455
12-16-2005, 10:43 PM
Since the US did NOT need to intercept bombers, they had no need for canon armed aircraft

True that.

HellToupee
12-17-2005, 12:16 AM
But then they didnt have a 20mm cannon, all 20mm cannon armed us ac used british hispano cannons. 20mm were probly the best overall firerates trajectory wernt much differnt from .50s and i belive range was better. But i reckon the issue in il2 is just some planes take far to many hits due to things like ammo storage etc not being modeled, and the difficulty of hitting due to them all being synced, most guns are synced just more noticeable on the 50s since u need a stream of hits vs a snap shot.

Xiolablu3
12-17-2005, 03:45 AM
I think that the hardest thing is to actually hit with the .50s, thanks to the strange tracer sync, I have real problems hitting the target. If this was changed to how to really was (ie a random 'watering ccan' effect) they would be easier to use.

Plus I find that I have to get much closer in order to actually do any damage than the cannons, probably because a lot more bullets miss as you get further away.

Gibbage1
12-17-2005, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I think that the hardest thing is to actually hit with the .50s, thanks to the strange tracer sync, I have real problems hitting the target. If this was changed to how to really was (ie a random 'watering ccan' effect) they would be easier to use.

Plus I find that I have to get much closer in order to actually do any damage than the cannons, probably because a lot more bullets miss as you get further away.

Fly the P-40E Field Mod. Thats the only .50 cal armed aircraft left in IL2 that still has un-synced guns. It feels at least 2x more powerful then the P-40E and it has THE SAME GUNS!

Xiolablu3
12-17-2005, 04:04 AM
A little strange that only the American planes have this 'synced effect'? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

It makes deflection shooting much, much harder. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Kuna15
12-17-2005, 04:15 AM
Synched effect have most of the aircraft in game (MG and cannon equipped).
Exception is Hurricane (iirc) with its .303cal, P-51D outer cannons (don't fire synched with inner two pairs), P-40E_M105P.

It sure is a lot easier firing (and hitting target) desynchronised M2s compared to synchronised (one can compare regular P-40 gunnery with P-40E_M-105; undoubtely 105 is noticeable easier).
There are almost no gaps between bullet stream (with little deflection) making the target impossible to dodge burst.

Aaron_GT
12-17-2005, 05:51 AM
There are tradoffs in the two gun platforms. 20MM's fire slightly slower, have a bigger arc terjectory, and loos KE faster then the .50 cal. A P-51 with 6 .50 cal's is much more powerfull then a 109 or Yak with 1 20MM and 2 12.7MM guns since not only is the weapons doing more damage, but your throwing out a LOT more projectiles and have a much greater chance to hit. You also generally have more trigger time.

Gibbage, it is a fallacy that 6 guns have a MUCH greater chance of hitting than 3. They have a slightly better chance of hitting in most chances, not a much greater chance. There are only a few scenarios in which the chance of hitting is very much greater. The NUMBER of hits increases linearly with the number of guns, but not the chance of at least one hit. The analogy is to use 3 coins and 6 coins. If you get one head or more any one throw it counts as a 'hit'. If you do this and count the number of throws that contain one 6 or more you see the difference isn't as big as you'd imagine.

In terms of lead hitting the target the figure to look at is the total amount of lead and explosive power, and the distribution of it. 6 50 cals versus 1 20mm and 2 12.7 or 13mm guns the values are pretty much the same in terms of that leaving the barrel, but the distribution from the 6 12.7mm guns is more consistent.(Going back to the coin analogy you'd record the number of heads on each trial and chart those, but for the 3 coin version you'd need one coin of a different type and count that as 3 heads in one).

Also at realistic engagement distances during dogfighting (about 200m) then the drop in arc of the 20mm gun isn't significant. ROFs and muzzle velocities of many 20mm guns isn't much less than those of 50 cals either.

The significant factor in the USA retaining 50 calibre weapons throughout WW2 is that they were sufficient to bring down fighters, which is what the USA ended up facing (whereas in the 1930s a bomber threat was assumed, hence heavy cannon inh the P39, original P38). Given this it was simply easier in terms of logisitics and production to carry on with the 50 calibre gun which did sufficient damage. Given the rapid ramping up of US forces in 1939-42 this was the right decision.

For its part the RAF had already made the decision to essentially skip 50 calibre weapons and go to 20mm guns before WW2 started. 20mm guns proved to be a good compromise for both bomber interception and anti-fighter work. The LW was facing more bombers, hence the use of 30mm cannon. The Mk108 is much less good as an anti-fighter weapon as here trajectory is problematic.

jds1978
12-17-2005, 06:52 AM
prior to 4.02 i thought the M2 was a joke. Now i think they are spot on.

w/ 4.02 .50's you can blow off wings, set planes afire, or hammer them into tiny pieces.
plus, i'm an awfull shot. as has been said before, set convergence really close and hold your fire until you start to panic (as in: Holy #@%&, am i gonna ram this enemy plane?)

1c should do something about the tracers, though. de-sync and maybe make them more visible

Chuck_Older
12-17-2005, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by chris455:
The .50 are fine. It's the damage model of some AC that are off...........and before you ask, I have fired the .50. Many times.

Convergence is critical with most US A/C because they carry their armament in the wings.
Hit something @ convergence range with 6 .50s and watch what happens. Chances are you won't be disappointed.

Also
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Lemee guess there are no 50 caliber mgs in russia but plenty of 7.62 ak47s.Which work better in the game anyway.I wonder why.

There ARE no AK-47s in the game, the weapon not having been fielded until after the period of history that the game covers. Hence no wayof telling whether or not they "work better". Wonder no longer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with Chris, although I never fired a point 50

As an aside, the Ak-47 wasn't introduced until...wait for it...1947 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Most "AK-47s" you would see nowadays would actually be AK-74s in my opinion, anyway

As another aside, after 'flying' many hours in P-51s of all variants, and P-40s of all variants (especially B models or H81A-2s), I can tell you that even four fifty cals (or just two, with the help of four .30s) are devastatingly effective- IF you hit at convergance range. If you need some help determining your correct convergance, I'm very busy just now but I have in the past explained at great length how to find and set convergance that is proper for you (not the plane) and I'll see if I can't find the post(s) or just type up a new one for you

RAF23-Chainsaw
12-17-2005, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
If you need some help determining your correct convergance, I'm very busy just now but I have in the past explained at great length how to find and set convergance that is proper for you (not the plane) and I'll see if I can't find the post(s) or just type up a new one for you

well, I would love to have that done for me =)

I have 150m right now and working pretty OK (rarelly fly fighter) but it can always be bether!

Cheers RAF23-Chainsaw

Aaron_GT
12-17-2005, 08:52 AM
1c should do something about the tracers, though. de-sync and maybe make them more visible

Yes, this is the biggest issue, and firing as a salvo DOES drastically reduce your chance of hitting.

Xiolablu3
12-17-2005, 11:41 AM
I find the .50 Mgs harder to hit with than 20mm cannons, not sure why. I think its because I can see the cannon flying thru the air better, therefore I can 'walk' my fire onto the target.

With the tracer of the 50's synced as it is though this is impossible to do.

I can't understand why this was done?!? Every guncam I have ever seen of 50's firing show the 'watering can' random effect.

I think you would see a lot less complaints about the 50's if they were de-synced, as I for one, think I am hitting when I am actually missing. Deflection shooting is very much harder in particualr and this is something 95% of my shots include. Very rarely do I get a dead straight shot.

Kuna15
12-17-2005, 12:38 PM
@ Xi have you ever played B-17 Flying Fortress II (Mighty Eight)?

The best tracers I ever saw in computer game by far. And every once and while I wish to play it only because of that. And btw that was premium flight sim and then IL-2 arrived on scene http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

But nevertheless engine/gun sounds and bullet tracers are really better done than in FB.
About FM/DM they aren't bad either; graphics are quite solid. All in all a must have sim for flight sim enthusiasts. And besides that you can fly B-17 in campaign http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Few screenshots from ingame
http://images.google.com/images?hl=hr&q=B-17%20Flying%2...ight&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi (http://images.google.com/images?hl=hr&q=B-17%20Flying%20Fortress%20Mighty%20Eight&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi)

Xiolablu3
12-17-2005, 01:12 PM
Hi Kuna http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yes I did play that a game a long time ago, I enjoyed it at the time too, but my computer was old at the time and it took a long time to change from one gun position to another. This spoilt my enjoyment of it.

I might see if I can track it down and have another go at it!

I havent seen you on UKded recently mate, are you flying elsewhere? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jugent
12-17-2005, 01:58 PM
Have you tried any other MG that got the same caliber as the .50?
I think that the .50 got more punch than the MG 131.

Put up a dogfight server take some a/c from US GB JN GER and USSR, take a bomber as the b-25 spaw in on the airfild and let it stay on the ground, Join in with another PC, u have maybe some friends or use Hyperlobby and give another gamer instructions.

Attack the bomber on the ground and count hits, and then u can tell us wich gun is the best or worst.
If you dont know the commands for statistics start a thread for it.

Xiolablu3
12-17-2005, 02:07 PM
I agree that the 2x13mm are pretty useless on the German planes. I am not sure how they compare to the other 50cals in the game.

Once I run out of cannon ammo in a 109 or 190 I RTB unless I really have to stay and fight. It is just not worth staying in the fight as you are unlikely to damage anything enough to put him out of the fight with just the mgs on these planes.

I was going to say that MG's must have been better for some targets in real life otherwise they wouldnt have bothered with the extra weight, but I really cant think of anything that they would do better than cannons? Maybe attacking 'soft' targets? (humans etc) But surely a cannon would do a lot of damage to soft targets too. Maybe the higher ROF is an advantage in these situations.

ImpStarDuece
12-17-2005, 02:32 PM
Don't let calibre size fool you when comparing medium calibre machine guns. The German 13mm (MG 131) fires a round that only weighs 2/3 as much as the M2 Browning round, at about 120 m/sec slower the the Browning round, and it carries around the same amount of incidenary. Rate of fire is about 100 rpm higher though.

In terms of penetration, muzzle energy and ballistics the MG 131 is not as good as the Browning, and it shows in the game. It should be slightly easier to hit with though as the higher RoF makes deflection shots easier.

chris455
12-17-2005, 02:41 PM
Someone said:

Fly the P-40E Field Mod. Thats the only .50 cal armed aircraft left in IL2 that still has un-synced guns. It feels at least 2x more powerful then the P-40E and it has THE SAME GUNS!

I disagree, and I've got track:

.50s synched_vs_unsynched track (http://members.cox.net/miataman1/50%20M2%20synch%20vs%20unsynch.zip)

I endeavored to conduct these firing tests under as like conditions as possible. Both use an Me-109E-7z as the victim; both are merge engagements, in both AC that I am flying I utilize a burst of less than 1 second.

The two aircraft whose guns are being tested are the Curtiss P-40E, with "synched" (volley fire) guns; the second is the Russian field mod with M-105P engine and "unsynched" (random fire)
guns.

The first track will show a P-40 M105P destroying an Me-109E in a single burst.
The engine of the 109 is largely destroyed, making at best 10% power, cowl blown off, aircraft trailing fuel and smoke. An definite one-burst kill.

The second track will show a P-40E with the supposedly "weaker" synched guns. This time, the Me-109 is reduced to a flaming wreck, and has only a few seconds of life left before exploding into pieces. Again, one burst, one kill.
Six .50s.
Same as the M105P.

I remain unconvinced that this "synch" phenomenon amounts to any practical destructive difference. It may "feel" different to the firer, but to the victim, the results are the same.

If these tracks prove nothing else, they show that the M2 .50 caliber machine gun in 4.02 is deadly, synched or unsynched.

Kuna15
12-17-2005, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Hi Kuna http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yes I did play that a game a long time ago, I enjoyed it at the time too, but my computer was old at the time and it took a long time to change from one gun position to another. This spoilt my enjoyment of it.

I might see if I can track it down and have another go at it!

I havent seen you on UKded recently mate, are you flying elsewhere? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't fly online recently at all. Just offline. I'm really not that much of an onliner. I used to play on UK_ded almost regularly I liked Zero_v_Wildcat server too I was part timer there too (under other nick as it was some time ago)...

About your MG131 remark; I rtb when I run outta cannon ammo too.
But funny thing happened to me some time ago. Was in some online COOP. I was flying FW-190A-8 (+ MK108). Bnzed couple of Mustangs that were strafing German troops... I overshoot with MG151 and MK108. But not with nose MG131 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
And I hit their engines they stopped.
Two kills with MG131 only in spite of having t0n of cannon ammo left http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif. Any other oppo other than P51 (or P40 also glass engine) and this probably wouldn't have worked.

jugent
12-17-2005, 03:14 PM
How much energy will the MG 131 put into the target in a 3sec burst compared to the .50?

Hydra444
12-17-2005, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by chris455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">.I've seen many planes turned asunder while I've flown the P-47 all by simply getting in close.

I agree Hydra, somtimes I feel almost like I'm cheating when flying the Jug because instead of just 4, or even 6 .50s she has EIGHT. Can you say "overkill"?
Ouch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Overkill,yeah,I said it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I always scrath my head when I see read these ".50cal whining" threads,and wonder if they are playing the same game as me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

chris455
12-17-2005, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by jugent:
How much energy will the MG 131 put into the target in a 3sec burst compared to the .50?

You've earned yourself a homework assignment! When you find the answer to your question, report back to us. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

For the answer, check here:
WWII gun performance tables (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html)

Kocur_
12-17-2005, 05:10 PM
#2, its turning rock into chips. ROCK. Not aluminum, ROCK!!!!

Well put, but I dont think you meant what you wrote, as it works against idea that .50BMG is too weak in game. Why? Because rock is brittle, and aluminium is not...

OTOH M2 gunnery is A LOT more difficult than in case of other guns. My shooting is usually snap shooting, and fact that M2s are synched loweres efficiency in such a case greately. Also lousy - not visible enough, and not dense (because of synchronisation again) tracers make it difficult to correct firing in case of lead shooting.


Since the US did NOT need to intercept bombers, they had no need for canon armed aircraft

If so, why purchased licence for British Hispano? In fact guys responsible for US aero barrel armament wanted 20mms, but some idiot, who appearently felt he was incarnation of great John Moses Browning, decided, he knew better than Brits how long the chmber should be and changed it! Which lead to failures and delays, failures and delays... Good read (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/US404.htm) on sad story of arrogance and ignorance http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

ImpStarDuece
12-17-2005, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by jugent:
How much energy will the MG 131 put into the target in a 3sec burst compared to the .50?

MG 131 (13x64mm)

Energy for MG 131 AP/T round; 9703 joules

Energy for a MG 131 AP/I round; 9577.90 joules at muzzle + 8415.68 joules Chemical energy (1.4g PETN + .3g Thermite) Total = 17978.18 joules

Energy for MG 131 Incidenary round; 9486.40 joules at muzzle + 13224.64 joules Chemical Energy (2.2g incendinary filler) Total = 22711.04 joules

M2 Browning (12.7x99mm)

Energy for M2 Browning AP round; 13224.64 joules at muzzle

Energy for M2 Browning API (M8) round; 16568.12 joules at muzzle + 9482 joules Chemical energy (incendiary filler). Total = 26050.12

Of course, just the energy outputs aren't a strict comparison.

The 12.7x99 has advantages over the 13x64 round that the energy outputs don't give. First of all, it is a heavier round, with better sectional denisty and significantly higher initial velocity. The 13x64 fires at either 710 m/s (API, APT) or 750 m/s (HEI, Incendiary) while the 12.7 fires at either 890 m/s (API,) or 880 m/s (API). The 12.7x99 round doesn't slow down to the initial speed of the 13x62 until 250-350 meters range, and it retains velocity much better. So at typical combat ranges, the 12.7x99 round hits at about 1/3 greater velocity than the 13x64, with a commesurate boost in relative energy levels.

The 12.7x99 round has a flatter trajectory and less need for leading on deflection shots. As a heavier round with of slightly smaller calibre, it also has superior armour piercing capabilities, something reinforced in 1943 when the 12.7x99 recieved steel and tungsten cored API ammo.
The main benefits for the MG 131 is its light weight (just 17 kg compared to the 29 kg of the M2 Browning), smaller size and lighter weight of the ammunition (hence more carried) and its higher rate of fire (900 rpm, dropping to about 810 rpm when synched) compared to the M2 Browning (cyclic between about 700 and 900 rmp, generally given as 750-850 rpm but it was very much dependent on the individual gun).

I'll let you guys do all the calculaions you want. Just going off the top of my head, I'd judge the 12.7x99 round to be about 20% more powerful than the 13x64, given the slightly lower RoF of the Browning, but higher M/V, retention of energy and superior AP performance.

TX-Gunslinger
12-17-2005, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Gibbage, looking at the video, I come to a completely different conclusion. Particularly witness how when that tree stump is hit the first few times nothing really happens. Unlike the rocks, (I saw a lot of loose dirt too by the way) which are more constant in angle towards the bullet trajectory, the trunk's curve means that not all bullets are equally effective. Some seemed to glance off or alternatively go right through. with minimal disturbance to the actual structural integrity of the stump. On the other hand, at least one of the bullets seems to have struck dead center, spun and wreaked terrible havoc on the trunk. This is quite comparable to the in-game characteristics of the 0.50, namely that effect is a lot more variable than with explosive shell cannons and that dead 6 shots, due to the high angle of incidence, are least effective.

Is the 0.50 better or worse than real life in-game? I wouldn't know definitively and neither would anyone else imo, but I find it reasonably plausible. Not only do I find the damage profile believable, I can see why it was preferred by the US: it allowed anyone to at least hit the target and the aces to shred planes to bits. Compare with the MK108 - great punch and excellent dispersion characteristics but the almost lob-like trajectory, limited ammo and singular/dual mounting means that it takes some time to learn how to even hit the target in the first place.

When you consider how much time we spend in this sim, dying, reflying and learning, it is obvious that the cannons would rise to dominance because once you learn to shoot straight the advantage of spray and pray becomes less important. I guarantee you that most simmers know more about air combat and gunnery than even some veteran WWII pilots.

The same kind of argument explains a lot of luftwhiner attitudes. They come into a game where there is relative parity in skill levels and wonder why they cannot match the early success of the LW (bloodied in the Spanish Civil War, Poland and France) versus the relatively "noobish" Allies. If you want to experience being Galland or Hartmann or what have you, at least one requirement (there are others of course) would be to find a server with a constant supply of new players who just got the game 3 months ago, still learning the ropes, struggling to just navigate properly and who never get the opportunity to learn from their mistakes - one virtual death and their disk explodes!

We all know this but seriously underestimate or ignore it's impact on our perceptions of IL-2's disparity from historical record. Instead we blame the FM, DM, anything but the fact that there is ZERO simulation of all the factors around the combat like production quality, pilot skill, individual G-resistance, numbers, tactical and strategic concerns, fatigue, fear and even psychological factors. e.g. how exactly can you be sure that the spit a 109 pilot "out-turned" and shot down in one of his recollections was not being piloted by a guy who just ate bad eggs for breakfast? Or how do you know the plane "shredded" by a bragging Ace's 0.50s did not already have its airframe stressed from the last sortie?

A little perspective is all...

Agree 100% about M2 50 observations...

Agree 200% about expectations of virtual pilots during this time in the sim.

Great post. Thanks

Gunny

Badsight.
12-17-2005, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by chris455:
I remain unconvinced that this "synch" phenomenon amounts to any practical destructive difference. It may "feel" different to the firer, but to the victim, the results are the same. disagree 100% online

desynched it feels twice as easy to deal out wing chops (my favourite) with the russian P-40 over the other versions . one P-40 fan i fly with says it feels like a cheat using it (better handeling , better guns)

de-synched is best

chris455
12-17-2005, 10:15 PM
Badsight,

I'm always willing to concede that online vs offline = apples and oranges, but notice this:

It feels at least 2x more powerful then the P-40E and it has THE SAME GUNS!

and this

desynched it feels twice as easy to deal out wing chops
and this

one P-40 fan i fly with says it feels like a cheat using it
(emphasis mine)

Now, watch my tracks (posted above) or do your own testing- I'm not so sure that the way it "feels" amounts to a significant difference in actual performance. If there IS a difference-
it should be able to be proven. I tried to do it, and the results did not bear out these "feelings". If anyone has online tracks that prove otherwise, I'd love to see them-
Chris

jds1978
12-18-2005, 04:19 AM
i know this has been debated straight into the ground 1000 times before, but...

i want the tracers to be de-synched...watch any guncam movie ans you'll see that the tracers come out in a watering can effect, not in perfectly timed sheets. in the current incarnation the only use for the .50 tracers is to give your position away as you really can't aim w/ them at the moment. before anyone starts pontificating about aiming/leading your fire correctly remember that WW2 AC used tracer ammunition to aim and walk their fire onto their targets. it's not there just to look pretty. i'm just mystified that the .50 cal tracer ammunition remains out of wack http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Badsight.
12-18-2005, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by chris455:
I tried to do it, and the results did not bear out these "feelings". you did your testing offline ?

offline i can get fantastic damadge from single bursts as well

offline for this kind of test isnt going to back up what you see online
1)your shooting AI in a non-competative enviroment , AI dont manouver as hard as people & you could be shooting freindlys offline
2)packet loss affect the "clumps" of bullets that we fire
3) gun strength is different on & offline & offline is stronger which makes it eaiser for a less effective firing patteren to be competitive with a more efficient firing pattern

its not feelings that im talking about , its repeated kills made with US .50 planes - any of them - then you jump into the russian P-40 & notice a difference

which is a eaiser time of getting your bandit to suffer criticals

its not just me saying this & all these people cant be wrong - your one of the only people ive met who has done this kind of test & hasnt noticed this effect - try online prehaps to notice ?

de-synched is a more effective firing pattern

a stream instead of a clump

msalama
12-18-2005, 07:44 AM
You're right, you know. 60's are where it's at - Beatles, Stones, the Kinks, the Who... And 70's too, at least when it comes to punk and hard rock - Pistols, Ramones, AC/DC, Led Zep, you name it!

So yep, 50's are a joke indeed. Oh, hey, wait - but how about guys like Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Jerry Lee Lewis, Eddie Cochran...?

Nah, no jokes there either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LStarosta
12-18-2005, 07:58 AM
I agree... .50's are pretty darn tits when you fire them closer than 150m.

jds1978
12-18-2005, 08:06 AM
msalama Posted Sun December 18 2005 06:44
You're right, you know. 60's are where it's at - Beatles, Stones, the Kinks, the Who... And 70's too, at least when it comes to punk and hard rock - Pistols, Ramones, AC/DC, Led Zep, you name it!

So yep, 50's are a joke indeed. Oh, hey, wait - but how about guys like Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Jerry Lee Lewis, Eddie Cochran...?

Nah, no jokes there either

you forgot Stax and Motown http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Grendel-B
12-18-2005, 09:47 AM
Fans of the MaDuce, enjoy! People who doubt the power of the .50 cal, enjoy!

Note a few things.

#1, this gun is on a 73lb tripod. Not mounted on a 10,000lb aircraft.

#2, its turning rock into chips. ROCK. Not aluminum, ROCK!!!!

#3, near the end, the guy firing lets loose on a LONG birst. All the hits land within a VERY small area. VERY VERY LITTLE SPREAD! Please note #1 again.

A .50 cal will go through an engine block and keep going. It can penetrate 1/2" steel face hardened plate easy. It can punch through a steel man hole cover and still have plenty of killing force. Its one bad-azzed gun, and its still being used today on top of US army tanks and vehicles.



Except your comparison does not hold water.
A 73 lb mounting on steady ground moves less than your 10.000 lb airplane, that is moving, waving, shattering, has 1 or more machineguns shooting next to it and so on. A machinegun mounted on airplane is not equal to a single ground mounted gun. The are airstreams, plane might be slipping and the bullets hit usually targets that are a long way off and moving away from the shooting gun. The bullets do not usually hit in 90 degree but they must penetrate the target, often from very poor angles, losing much of the penetrating power.

You and the original poster have lots to learn from real world shooting and physics of aerial combat and gunnery, before you have a faint idea how much you don't actually know.

A machinegun is machinegun, not a cannon, not a miracleweapon.

But perhaps CFS3 might satisfy your and the original poster's needs better? ;-)
http://download.microsoft.com/download/combatflightsim/.../combatfs3_intro.wmv (http://download.microsoft.com/download/combatflightsim/video/cfs3-vid1/WXP/EN-US/combatfs3_intro.wmv)

mynameisroland
12-18-2005, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by tweak26:
Lets face it.The 50s in this game are way off.They are more comparable to small arms fire more than anything else.Fact is if u ever watched or fired a 50 cal weapon you would know what kind of damage it is capable of.Here all u get it smoke and flames when in fact there should be loss of parts wings and such.Im not gunna ramble on and go into detail but this is really taking away from the american planes.

Get your convergence sorted, aim for cockpit and engine and stop complaining.

F0_Dark_P
12-18-2005, 10:40 AM
guys the 50's kick *** stop whining about them, just stop shooting from dead six!, couse that sucks beaver butt you have to shoot more in a angle, then you can cut a figther in two peaces easy

Kuna15
12-18-2005, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
de-synched is a more effective firing pattern

a stream instead of a clump

Undoubtely yes and I would like to see that in FB.
Not desynchronising tracers only (although that would be step forward too) but desynchronising whole bullet stream. That way tracers will be desynched too, example being P-40E_M105P.

It is really funny how P-40E_M105P has desynchronised bullet stream unlike other M2 equipped planes (I think that type was being used as test model perhaps or something).

msalama
12-18-2005, 12:46 PM
you forgot Stax and Motown http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

KNOCK.ON.WOOD!!! S**t, I did, didn't I... and of course the Hardest Working Man In The Showbiz too...

Yeah, great stuff http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

chris455
12-18-2005, 01:24 PM
de-synched is a more effective firing pattern
a stream instead of a clump

Has any one explored why the difference in the P-40-M105P? I.e., why do the US M2s fire volley fire? It would seem that would be difficult to acheive in RL, all guns firing at exactly the same moment...... so the question becomes, why are they that way? Are other examples of barrel armament in-game synched as well? Or is it only the M2 that is so hobbled? Has anyone tried to bring this to OM's attention?

Badsight.
12-18-2005, 04:07 PM
all guns in FB i believe

apart from the Russian model P-40 & the Hurricane MkIIb

Kuna15
12-18-2005, 04:52 PM
Does P-51D have outer M2 pair desynchronised with two inner pairs? (I didn't checked but I remember seeing posts about it)

gorillasika
12-18-2005, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
http://www.gibbageart.com/files/M2HB.wmv

#1, this gun is on a 73lb tripod. Not mounted on a 10,000lb aircraft.

#2, its turning rock into chips. ROCK. Not aluminum, ROCK!!!!

#3, near the end, the guy firing lets loose on a LONG birst. All the hits land within a VERY small area. VERY VERY LITTLE SPREAD! Please note #1 again.


Nice video http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
But not very informative. In fact it proofs only couple of things:
1. Rock (especially that kind of) is easily breakable, in fact it can be broken easily with another harder rock.
2. One needs lot of MG bullets to saw a tree trunk to pieces. When in the army, our small group managed to cut a normal sized tree trunk which was unfortunate enough to be placed behind one aiming plate in a shooting camp. This was done with 7.62mm assault rifle.
On the other hand couple of shots from a shotgun can blow a dry rot tree stump to nonexistance.
3. Mounting the MG on a solid tripod designed to carry it and sitting behind it helps your aiming. The hit areas shown in the video are nothing special, especially at that distance.

VW-IceFire
12-18-2005, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
Does P-51D have outer M2 pair desynchronised with two inner pairs? (I didn't checked but I remember seeing posts about it)
Its actually the middle guns.

Like this:
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
X X X X X X
| |
</pre>
The ones with a | under them are desynced.

Tator_Totts
12-18-2005, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
all guns in FB i believe

apart from the Russian model P-40 & the Hurricane MkIIb

Ahhhhh A conspiracy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Gibbage1
12-18-2005, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by chris455:

Now, watch my tracks (posted above) or do your own testing-

You can make tracks show anything you want under the ideal conditions. The thing is, synced are a lot easier to aim, aircraft in high deflection shots wont "slip through" your stream, and you can walk the hits into desired locations. Something you cant do with synced. I dont give to flying flips if you popped 1 target once at it seemed more powerfull then synced, it takes more then 1 kill to know the differance.

BfHeFwMe
12-18-2005, 10:53 PM
Why is it certain aircraft that weren't are made syncronized, yet others which were aren't? Makes no sense whatsoever, actually smells a bit. How about all those nose cowl guns firing through the props with contineous best listed rates of fire. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's a level playing field, you can count on it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Jetbuff
12-19-2005, 12:53 AM
Just as an interesting footnote to this discussion, Col. Kit Carson on the 190's ruggedness:

On another occasion, I jumped one directly over the city of Paris and fired all my ammo, but he was only smoking heavily after a long chase over the town. Assuming I was getting 10 percent hits, that airplane must have had 200 holes in it. It was a rugged machine.
So, should the 190 be modelled to take 200 bullets on a routine basis because one pilot said so? Moral: different pilots had different experiences with the 0.50's and, funnily enough, that's exactly what we have in-game! Sometimes you take off a wing in one microburst and sometimes that bandit seems to soak up all your ammo with no ill effect.

Viper2005_
12-19-2005, 01:08 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
50s are a joke http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Right, now that I've stopped laughing,

Try taking a P-47 and using a dual convergence (100 m and 200 m works well). Test offline against the Fw-190. From dead 6 you should have very little trouble starting fires (a magic fuel leak is a fire waiting to happen!).

I find the .50" quite powerful but very hard to use. But then I spend most of my time shooting the 151/20 so this is unsurprising.

I think that synchronisation has a powerful negative effect upon the effectiveness of the .50" in deflection shots, whilst the tracer seems almost invisible to the shooter (though it's very very visible when it's flying over your shoulder!)

In short, the actual effect that .50" rounds have on aircraft isn't the problem in my view - it's all the other details.

chris455
12-19-2005, 02:02 AM
You can make tracks show anything you want under the ideal conditions.

Gibbage, what is your meaning here?

Hoarmurath
12-19-2005, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by chris455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You can make tracks show anything you want under the ideal conditions.

Gibbage, what is your meaning here? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's easy, just have a look at gibbage whinings, and at the "proofs" he provided...

Kuna15
12-19-2005, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
Does P-51D have outer M2 pair desynchronised with two inner pairs? (I didn't checked but I remember seeing posts about it)
Its actually the middle guns.

Like this:
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
X X X X X X
| |
</pre>
The ones with a | under them are desynced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanx for reply @ IF. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So let me get this straight; middle pair is firing synchronised (two middle MGs firing simultaneously), but desynchronised with other two pairs?

Or situation No.2; middle MG pair is firing completely desynchronised:
-with each other
-with other two pairs

Diablo310th
12-19-2005, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I think that the hardest thing is to actually hit with the .50s, thanks to the strange tracer sync, I have real problems hitting the target. If this was changed to how to really was (ie a random 'watering ccan' effect) they would be easier to use.

Plus I find that I have to get much closer in order to actually do any damage than the cannons, probably because a lot more bullets miss as you get further away.

Fly the P-40E Field Mod. Thats the only .50 cal armed aircraft left in IL2 that still has un-synced guns. It feels at least 2x more powerful then the P-40E and it has THE SAME GUNS! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly Gibbage.....I think teh 50's overall are fine.. We jsut need to get them un-synched. Oleg please do this. It makes deflection shooting so hard to do with teh 50's now.

ECV56_Rolf
12-19-2005, 10:26 AM
I tried to find the original thread about the .50s disppesion that produced the synched .50s that we now have. It is not there, maybe it is in the older forum.

I don´t remember well if it was on some of FBs patches, or AEP, but whinning started about .50s disppersion.

That generated a big absurd thread that ended by UBI asking Oleg to "correct" .50s just to please the whinners, or something like that.

But be sure... Oleg was against all that.

That thread was as nasty as the 190 bar thread, and as in the 190, I believe the book is closed.

Keep in mind that the actual .50s synched condition is the solution we were given to please the disppersion whinners, and worst of all, at that time the whinners declared to be VERY pleased with it.

The P40FM, may have been forgotten at that time, and it wasn't changed with the rest.

Right now Oleg could have many options, read this thread and wonder how stupid people can be, or just realize that all people will never be pleased one way or the other.

So, if so many want them to be desynched at least in BOB, why don't you just cut the BS about calling him biased or whatever when you don't even know or cared to know what ever happened before?

I will like them desynched to, but for once this could be done in a more polite and respectfull manner, and addressing the original issue.

Maybe this is not even possible because there is some compromise with UBI that will be a headache to change. This last one is my own mental rambling, I have not idea if it is so or not.

If you want to check what I'am saying, just install FB when the P47 appears, or to the first AEP release. You will see the difference there.

Diablo310th
12-19-2005, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by ECV56_Rolf:
I tried to find the original thread about the .50s disppesion that produced the synched .50s that we now have. It is not there, maybe it is in the older forum.

I don´t remember well if it was on some of FBs patches, or AEP, but whinning started about .50s disppersion.

That generated a big absurd thread that ended by UBI asking Oleg to "correct" .50s just to please the whinners, or something like that.

But be sure... Oleg was against all that.

That thread was as nasty as the 190 bar thread, and as in the 190, I believe the book is closed.

Keep in mind that the actual .50s synched condition is the solution we were given to please the disppersion whinners, and worst of all, at that time the whinners declared to be VERY pleased with it.

The P40FM, may have been forgotten at that time, and it wasn't changed with the rest.

Right now Oleg could have many options, read this thread and wonder how stupid people can be, or just realize that all people will never be pleased one way or the other.

So, if so many want them to be desynched at least in BOB, why don't you just cut the BS about calling him biased or whatever when you don't even know or cared to know what ever happened before?

I will like them desynched to, but for once this could be done in a more polite and respectfull manner, and addressing the original issue.

Maybe this is not even possible because there is some compromise with UBI that will be a headache to change. This last one is my own mental rambling, I have not idea if it is so or not.

If you want to check what I'am saying, just install FB when the P47 appears, or to the first AEP release. You will see the difference there.

Rolf..I wish we could find that thread. I have flown the 47 since it entered the game and followed every thread concerning it. First of all it was clearly shown in the dispersion thread how far off it was. True..Oleg only changed it because UBI pretty much told him to. He even said so. Even tho the dispersion was off. Whether synching the guns was the answer I don't know but I know that right after that defection shooting was much better. Oleg has never considered the jug to be a fighter of any value. Again he even said so in public on the forums...wonder if we could find that thread? Right now what we ahve with the 50's is packets of rounds going out tehre with a large space between globs. That certainly isn't correct..again proven with screenies showing this clearly. All us Red pilots want is to unsynch the 50's for a more relistic performance of the guns much in the way Blue asked for and got the 20mm fixed. Of course this would not work in blues favor so some are not going to like it very much. The loadout on the 20's was changed to reflect historical correctness giving them more power...what if our 50's were given a more historical US loadout of API rounds rather than the Russian loadout with the HE round?

@IceFire...is this happening with the Jugs 8 guns too?

chris455
12-19-2005, 11:27 AM
Oleg has never considered the jug to be a fighter of any value. Again he even said so in public on the forums...wonder if we could find that thread?

I remember Diablo. What he said was "P-47.......not really a fighter". It still makes me sad. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I remember the great dispersion debate, as well as the acrimony that was generated. What I don't remember is the synched guns being touted as a remedy for the problem. I seem to recall that there was a "fix" that came in a patch (along with other stuff) and that the issue of effectiveness with the .50 evaporated altogether- then it seemed as though in subsequent patches, things slowly went awry again.
I have to admit that I have only heard the terms "synched" and "de-synched" very recently- I had no idea it was such a widespread issue as some claim. I don't fly much online (10% of my flying at best) so this may be why. I am very satisfied with the performance of the .50s- maybe because my favorite plane has eight of them, and that makes up for some of the problem.

BTW Diablo, great to hear from another true Jug afficionado. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Jetbuff
12-19-2005, 12:17 PM
I have my reservations about how the P-47 is modelled (much like the 190) but they have absolutely nothing to do with its armament.

Aaron_GT
12-19-2005, 03:27 PM
What I don't remember is the synched guns being touted as a remedy for the problem.

AFAIK they were synched before as well as after.

ECV56_Rolf
12-19-2005, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Diablo310th:
First of all it was clearly shown in the dispersion thread how far off it was.


Sorry, but till today I must agree with Oleg on this issue. At that time it took me much time to learn to shoot with the P47 as it was. It was possible, we were flying a closed FOF campaign where after we learned how to fire with it, the P47 become the best allied german bomber downer. At that time using it against fighters was more an issue of flying limitations on the Jug than gunnery in itself.



Whether synching the guns was the answer I don't know but I know that right after that defection shooting was much better.


I remember well because since then I noticed the synched thing. I disliked it a lot. It looked more like star wars than a WWII fighter.
This really puts immersion down.
This changed things in a way that instead of hitting in a satistical way, you hit in an all or nothing way. When you hit squarely you got 6 or 8 shots in place, but when you miss, you miss all.

Now be sure, desynching them will increase dispersion again.



Of course this would not work in blues favor so some are not going to like it very much.

I really dislike treating a simulator issue by telling it "bluish" or "redish". Things are right, wrong, or the nearest possible, personal biased possitions are useless on any reasonable request. And actually that is the behavior of winged quakers, not simmers.
I really pitty those people that keep flying only one side, they own only half or less of the sim I own.

Anyway, if you like flying the P47, keep in mind that is the only .50s plane that have a workaround solution to the synch behavior.
If you fire all 8 .50s, one cuartet a bit earlier than the other, the two cuartets fire unsynched in between them, and that works very well for deflection shooting.

Gibbage1
12-19-2005, 04:28 PM
My X-52 has a 2 stage trigger and I have the guns and cannons set on them. 1st stage is just guns, 2nd stage is guns and cannon's. Since the P-47's guns are seperated between guns and cannons (4 each trigger) this helps de-sync them. I will start the 1st trigger, and then the 2nd and I have a MUCh more effective gun platform then having them all synced. Even if its not really all that un-synced, I find it much easier. It in effect doubles my rate of fire, and cuts the distance between bullet packets in half.

BaronUnderpants
12-19-2005, 07:56 PM
Havent read all the posts so maby im repeating what someone allredy said.

Dont think its the synched/unsynched issiu that causing problems.

I think its the tracers thats the villan here, they are synched and not viseble enough.

Brighter and unsynched tracers would solve the problem in no time making primarely deflection shots much easier and effective.

The fact that tracers comes in synched bursts doesnt mean there arnt any bullits in between making it possible for planes to slip through, it does mean however that it is harder to aim and get a solid burst square on the target.

at first a find myselfe agreeing in that 50 is to weak but then i rember thoose times when the 50 cal suprised the he** out of me, like the time i made a lucky long range shot from about 450 m, slightly below and dead six...completly ripping the left wing of a Fw190 with a 1 sec. burst. (online)

Its the difficulty of aiming proppaly thats at fault....in my oppinion.

In fact, i have the same problem with all ac with few or nearly invissible tracers when i think about it. Like the La5 for example, or Laggs.

Just imagine the 50 cal tracers looking like the ones from the mg`s in I-153!....OMG http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ECV56_Rolf
12-19-2005, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
Havent read all the posts so maby im repeating what someone allredy said.

Dont think its the synched/unsynched issiu that causing problems.

I think its the tracers thats the villan here, they are synched and not viseble enough.

Brighter and unsynched tracers would solve the problem in no time making primarely deflection shots much easier and effective.

The fact that tracers comes in synched bursts doesnt mean there arnt any bullits in between making it possible for planes to slip through, it does mean however that it is harder to aim and get a solid burst square on the target.

at first a find myselfe agreeing in that 50 is to weak but then i rember thoose times when the 50 cal suprised the he** out of me, like the time i made a lucky long range shot from about 450 m, slightly below and dead six...completly ripping the left wing of a Fw190. (online)

Its the difficulty of aiming proppaly thats at fault....in my oppinion.

I do share the opinion that aiming is the big issue, and it always was.

But in another thread on ORR someone cared to show the pattern of synched vs unsynched fire, the gaps are there, and they are huge.

On the other side, yes mixing the tracers will be nice on partially solving the increased difficulty to do deflection shots.

Actually the whole issue here is if it is better to fire 2 very fast machine guns, or 2 big slower guns. (all .50s synched mean that a well aimed shot implies 6 or 8 bullets in the same place from one single hit, 4 or 6 pairs of synched .50s, will behave as a very fast machine gun, but with no more than two simultaneous hits when well aimed)

Diablo310th
12-19-2005, 08:30 PM
Rolf...sorry I didn't mean it to be a Red Blue issue. I have many good friends like HeinzBar and Von Heide that fly Blue.

@ Gibbage...that's a great workaround...I wish my MS FFB2 would do that.

A Chris455...~S~ I pay alot of attention to posts from fellow Jug pilots like urself, Kahuna, and Eagle.

Gibbage1
12-19-2005, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Diablo310th:

@ Gibbage...that's a great workaround...I wish my MS FFB2 would do that.


Im thinking that maybe a delay macro would work. A key that when hit, sends 1 trigger, then a 2nd trigger .5 seconds later. The numbers may need tweaking to make sure the 2nd trigger is not synced with the 1st birst, but you get the general idea.

Gibbage1
12-19-2005, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by chris455:
So, to you, Badsight, and Rolf, thanks.
(I'm kinda surprised something so good could come out of a thread with this title!) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LOL!!!

ITs not QUITE as good as the P-40E FM, but very close. With the staggered P-47, your pattern looks like this

__||__||__
__________
||______||
__________

There is still gap, but its half as much as

||||__||||
__________
__________
__________

A P-40E FM's pattern is TOTALLY random and looks something like this

_|____|___
__|_____|_
|______|__
_|____|___

No gap. Just a stream of deadly lead. ITs the differance between a shotgun and a machinegun. A shotgun will do more damage IF you hit up close, but an Mg you can controle better in a fight and walk your tracers to the target.

Diablo310th
12-20-2005, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Diablo310th:

@ Gibbage...that's a great workaround...I wish my MS FFB2 would do that.


Im thinking that maybe a delay macro would work. A key that when hit, sends 1 trigger, then a 2nd trigger .5 seconds later. The numbers may need tweaking to make sure the 2nd trigger is not synced with the 1st birst, but you get the general idea. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Fantastic idea Gibbage..I never thought about that. I'll give that a try tonight. Ok Blue...look out cause here comes my Jug with un synched guns...LOL well somewaht un-synched. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

KIMURA
12-20-2005, 08:05 AM
I don't understand your arguments only relating the 0.5". If 0.5" should become unsynched, every other gun in the game should also become unsynched. So also for the MG151,MK108,MGFF,Ho-5 and others. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

chris455
12-20-2005, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by KIMURA:
I don't understand your arguments only relating the 0.5". If 0.5" should become unsynched, every other gun in the game should also become unsynched. So also for the MG151,MK108,MGFF,Ho-5 and others. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

This is an "end-user" workaround that only applies to the P-47.
It will not work with other A/C. (due to the manner in which the P-47's guns are set up in-game).

Diablo310th
12-20-2005, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by KIMURA:
I don't understand your arguments only relating the 0.5". If 0.5" should become unsynched, every other gun in the game should also become unsynched. So also for the MG151,MK108,MGFF,Ho-5 and others. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I have no problem with that at all if they aren't firing correctly...but to be honest I think teh problem is only with certain US aircraft with the 50's. The P-40E is just fine.

TC_Stele
12-20-2005, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Diablo310th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Diablo310th:

@ Gibbage...that's a great workaround...I wish my MS FFB2 would do that.


Im thinking that maybe a delay macro would work. A key that when hit, sends 1 trigger, then a 2nd trigger .5 seconds later. The numbers may need tweaking to make sure the 2nd trigger is not synced with the 1st birst, but you get the general idea. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Fantastic idea Gibbage..I never thought about that. I'll give that a try tonight. Ok Blue...look out cause here comes my Jug with un synched guns...LOL well somewaht un-synched. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is an awesome work around. I have the same stick. Could you post this profile up when you've worked it out, please?

Diablo310th
12-20-2005, 11:38 AM
stele...sure no problem. My profile is set up to work with my X 45 too.

Gibbage1
12-20-2005, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by KIMURA:
I don't understand your arguments only relating the 0.5". If 0.5" should become unsynched, every other gun in the game should also become unsynched. So also for the MG151,MK108,MGFF,Ho-5 and others. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The US aircraft are a LOT more effected then other aircraft due to the fact that they use a battery of guns, not 1 or 2. What would be the use of un-syncing the Mk-108 on a 109? None. Or the two nose mounted 13MM? Very very little. In fact the nose mounted MG's and MG151/20 WERE synced in WWII since they fired through the prop and had mecanical firing or electrical firing to sync with the prop. A Spitfire's Hispano's would be VERY bad to un-sync since the recoil would make it sway a lot since there is only 2 guns. Have you ever fired 1 when the other was damaged and disabled?

With the US .50's de-synced the US will benifit from two things. Less jolting recoil (from having 6 guns going off at the same time) and less distance between bullets. No other aircraft would really benifit from it, and in fact it would hinder them greatly if the cannon;s are wing mounted.

PBNA-Boosher
12-20-2005, 02:26 PM
nothing at all wrong with .50 cal guns. i use them all the time. Learn to shoot.

Gibbage1
12-20-2005, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
nothing at all wrong with .50 cal guns. i use them all the time. Learn to shoot.

Its true that there is nothing WRONG with them, but there are things not RIGHT with them. I think indivigually they have plenty of power, fire at the right ROF, have the right dispersion and all that jazz, but having them synced is a big thorn in the side of all US aircraft since they depend on the stream of fire for many things like aiming and deflection shooting.

Syncing them is simply not historical no matter how you look at it.

Diablo310th
12-22-2005, 08:38 AM
Gibbage...I tried your work around on teh guns. WOW!!!! is all I can say. It worked great. For anyone else that flys a Jug and can program your fire button with a macro...do it.

Jetbuff
12-22-2005, 11:14 AM
Interesting. I've always had Weapon 1 and Weapon 2 on seperate buttons. Never gave it much thought really but I guess it could explain why I find the 0.50's quite potent unlike others here.

TC_Stele
12-22-2005, 11:44 AM
Regarding the profile, Diablo, please check your PMs, please.

(edited)

Diablo310th
12-22-2005, 03:41 PM
TC_Stele...check your PM's.

chris455
12-22-2005, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Diablo310th:
TC_Stele...check your PM's.

My turn Diablo- check your PMs bud.

Siwarrior
12-22-2005, 08:49 PM
Tweak- i still think it is your shooting............................ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Diablo310th
12-23-2005, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by chris455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Diablo310th:
TC_Stele...check your PM's.

My turn Diablo- check your PMs bud. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL Chris...check ur e-mail.

Diablo310th
12-23-2005, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Siwarrior:
Tweak- i still think it is your shooting............................ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif that depends on if you T&B in a Jug or deflection shoot while B&Z.

tweak26
12-23-2005, 11:57 PM
hey boosher and diablo put your money where your mouth is ill fly you in your fav plane 1 vs 1 and shame you horribly by posting the track on this thread.so act like your not seeing this scaeered lil puzzy

zombiewolf92553
12-24-2005, 12:25 AM
I would like to try I have a msff2,

Siwarrior
12-24-2005, 01:25 AM
OI tweak,
have respect for the members of this forum and if you want to act like that use the PM!

Dont bring your spamming here just because you can't shoot!

tigertalon
12-24-2005, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
A Spitfire's Hispano's would be VERY bad to un-sync since the recoil would make it sway a lot since there is only 2 guns. Have you ever fired 1 when the other was damaged and disabled?

Disagree. With hispano's ROF of 600 rpm, there would be in worst case 1/20 of a second between fire from one and another cannon. I believe that plane wouldn't yaw that much in such a short time.

Diablo310th
12-24-2005, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by tweak26:
hey boosher and diablo put your money where your mouth is ill fly you in your fav plane 1 vs 1 and shame you horribly by posting the track on this thread.so act like your not seeing this scaeered lil puzzy


huh? Where did that come from? I'll tell ya right up front I'm not a great pilot or shot. I just know how the guns are shooting and what has helped mine. If you wanna find me check War Clouds most anyday or night. If you really wanna fly 1vs1 so you can show how much better you are so be it. I'm game. Airstart at 30,000 ft.

Diablo310th
12-24-2005, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by zombiewolf92553:
I would like to try I have a msff2,

Zombie..give it a try. Waht you get is 4 guns hitting then 4 guns hitting. It makes deflection shooting easier tho your only hitting with 4 at a time but at least ur hitting. If you can park on teh rear of an ac tehn with short bursts your getting all 8 guns hitting in succession. This may help with packet loss of rounds online.

Estocade85
12-24-2005, 10:21 AM
Hey Diablo, mine if I have it too please? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif The Jug's my fav aircraft hehe.

Diablo310th
12-24-2005, 01:25 PM
Guys..my profile isn't anything special but if you want my file jsut pm me with your e-mail addy and i'll send it. Mind you this uis set up for my way of flying and preferences. I'll gladly share tho.

Tator_Totts
12-24-2005, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
My X-52 has a 2 stage trigger and I have the guns and cannons set on them. 1st stage is just guns, 2nd stage is guns and cannon's. Since the P-47's guns are seperated between guns and cannons (4 each trigger) this helps de-sync them. I will start the 1st trigger, and then the 2nd and I have a MUCh more effective gun platform then having them all synced. Even if its not really all that un-synced, I find it much easier. It in effect doubles my rate of fire, and cuts the distance between bullet packets in half.

My X-52 is setup the same way on the trigger love it.