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achtung2004
12-23-2006, 08:31 AM
I am an early war fan myself but did venture into a dogfight server with the new jets last night. I found the need to keep speed up throughout the fights a lot of fun. It brought Robert Shaw's book on combat fighting to life for me.

Anyone else?

achtung2004
12-23-2006, 08:31 AM
I am an early war fan myself but did venture into a dogfight server with the new jets last night. I found the need to keep speed up throughout the fights a lot of fun. It brought Robert Shaw's book on combat fighting to life for me.

Anyone else?

msalama
12-23-2006, 02:10 PM
Well maybe it's just me, but it feels like the planes both accelerate and decelerate more rapidly now... anyone else?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

Ratsack
12-23-2006, 06:15 PM
I have no opinion on any changes. I'm just waiting for Josf to show up in this thread and post his screen caps of Spits and Fw190a4s chasing each other, along with quotes from Boyd. And let's not forget the doghouse plots.

Ratsack

JG14_Josf
12-24-2006, 04:07 AM
You rang?

To those who appreciate attack study the following is a cut and paste from an earlier post on this forum (March 15 2004) it is John Boyd???s Barrel Roll Attack taken from the book BOYD by Robert Coram. The Barrel Roll Attack is one part of Boyd???s Arial Attach Study. I think that Boyd???s work predates Shaw???s work in Fighter Combat.

Fighter Combat is an excellent source of information. I hope that someone can find the following to be useful [my comments are in brackets]



1. Stalk your target and attempt to reduce angle-off as much as possible. [Line up behind the target] If this is impossible, employ the procedures outlined below.

[During a 6 o'clock bounce attack the target sees the attack coming and maneuvers to spoil the shot so a Barrel Roll Attack is prescribed when stalking the target doesn???t let the attacker reduce angle-off]

2. Dive below and inside your opponent's turn radius, maintaining nose-tail separation throughout the maneuvers. [Don't get too close]
The dive below should be initiated far enough out so the forthcoming zoom may be played inside or outside the defenders turn.
[Get ready to zoom up well before the overshoot, maintain control of the fight, be pro-active and not simply reactive. Adjust the attack to suit the defense.]

3. Pull up and zoom inside your opponent's turn radius if you feel he is not strongly oriented toward the scissors maneuver (sometimes this is difficult to determine). [This is a crucial moment during the attack. The wrong move by the attacker will favor the defender. At this time during the attack the target is out in front and probably nose high to scrub off speed for the scissors. The attacker is closing rapidly. The target is turning to make things difficult and spoil a tracking shot. Before the attacker gets too close he must now decide to either lead the target or lag behind the turning target. The wrong choice here can be costly for the attacker. The right choice here is the key to making the Barrel Roll Attack work. Boyd now describes how to Barrel Roll Attack a plane that does not reverse the original evasive break turn (scissors). In this case the attacker leads the target with a turn inside the defenders turn radius and then the attacker pulls up into a zoom climb. The zoom climb must be done in time, before things get too close.]

4. Barrel-roll, nose-high, in a direction away from your opponent's turn. If he turns right, barrel-roll left, and vice versa. The roll will reduce vector velocity and the height of the yo-yo apex, yet maintain a higher aircraft velocity.
[Since a Barrel Roll Attack is made inside the opponents turn radius it should be clear how this attack differs from a yo-yo where the attack is made outside of the opponents turn radius. Going back to the crucial decision moment before the pull up; it should be clear that the attack is changed significantly when the attacker decides to lead the turning target. Looking out in front as the attacker closes on the target the attacker makes the decision to keep the target in his right hand view as the target turns left. The attacker maneuvers to a collision course, the attacker turns to fly ahead of the turning target as if the attack is meant to be a snap shot. If the attack was planned as a high yo-yo the attacker would allow the target to pass from his right view to his left view before the attacker zooms up. The high yo-yo attack is made on the outside of the target's turn and the Barrel roll attack is made on the inside of the target's turn while the attacker barrels rolls over the top of the turning target in the opposite direction. Now it should be clear as to which way the attacker rolls his plane for a Barrel Roll Attack. Looking out in front the attacker has a target on his right side, the target is turning left. The attacker zooms up and rolls right keeping the target in his forward up view. In other words the attacker is maneuvering to place his lift vector aimed at the target. Notice the difference at this time; if the attacker were to roll left as the target is going from the attacker's right view to the left view then the roll left and zoom would break visual contact because the attacker stayed inside the targets turn. It may seem wrong to roll right as the target is passing from right to left. It may seem quicker and better to roll left at this time so as to start turning sooner; it may seem as if rolling right is the long way around. It may seem, at this time, as if rolling right will delay the shot opportunity. I think that the Barrel Roll Attach is counter intuitive. Going back to the crucial moment before the attacker closed the gap, going back to the time when the two planes were relatively far apart; the attacker could set up a High Yo-Yo and allow the turning target to pass from his front right view to his front left view and then the attacker can pitch up and roll left to keep his vector pointed at the target. Notice the difference? The Barrel Roll Attack is a move made by the attacker to turn inside the targets turn, to fly ahead of the target and then pitch up rolling opposite the targets turn to keep the target in view and to keep the lift vector pointed at the target. Why does this work? Boyd says: "reduce vector velocity" My interpretation is that this means the maneuver avoids the problems of a snap shot where vector velocity is increasing rapidly and range is closing rapidly. Then ???reduce the height of the yo-yo apex" means that this maneuver is better than the outside yo-yo because the roll is done quickly with less zooming up and more energy is being spent toward maintaining the correct amount of separation. Understand that a high yo-yo increases separation with more zoom and less geometrical advantage, which brings us to "yet maintain a higher aircraft velocity." The Barrel Roll Attack wastes less energy than the yo-yo since roll, pitch, and yaw are all simultaneously working toward gaining angles and maintaining just the right amount of separation. Picture a Barrel placed on the scene of this maneuver where the attacking plane goes around the barrel while the target plane is centered in the barrel. The target plane turns about 90 degrees inside the barrel while the attacking plane turns how much? The idea seems to be an adjustable lead turn. Rolling up and on top of the target sets up the correct amount of separation for a lead turn. The roll up and then over on top of the target changes the geometry from a increasing aspect snap shot into a nose to nose merge followed by a aileron directionally assisted out of plane early turn. The moment of overshoot is replaced by an oblique lead turn where the attacking plane is utilizing yaw, aileron, elevator, and geometry to gain angles against the opponent very quickly and wasting the least amount of energy.]

5. Continue the roll and employ bottom rudder as the aircraft comes through the nose-high inverted position. This will provide a 270deg change of direction and place you with longitudinal separation, at a reduced angle off above your opponent, diving toward a six-o'clock-low position. The longitudinal separation will be less than that acquired from an ordinary yo-yo.
[Looking back at the imaginary barrel placed on the scene it should be clear that although the path around the barrel is longer than the turn inside the barrel the path around the barrel is more efficient. The target plane is using elevator and possibly some rudder input to make a 180 degree heading change. The Attacking plane is flying faster and cannot match the same elevator turn, let alone try to turn inside the slower plane turning horizontal. But the Attacking plane can use aileron elevator and rudder to scribe a line around the barrel to maintain just the right amount of separation, not too close and not to far away from the turning target. As the target turns the attacking plane goes from a position abeam or to the side of the target then over the target and then behind the target and at all times the attacker is maintaining and then increasing angular or geometrical advantage because every input control is used to place the lift vector on the target at all times during the maneuver and the resulting expenditure of energy is vectored to point the attacking planes nose at the defending planes tail. The attacking plane maintains just the right amount of separation and maintains just the right heading to maneuver into firing position and this happens to work out looking similar to scribing a line around a barrel where the target is inside the barrel. The problems of getting too close should be clear as are the problems of allowing too much separation. Think of the maneuver as being a solid steel bar connecting both planes that does not allow the attacking plane to get too close yet pulls the attacking plane around the target plane as the attacking plane scrubs off excess energy. The solid steel bar lifts the attacking plane during the approach and pulls the attacking plane around as the attacking plane overshoots. Think of the maneuver as if the target plane were a center point where the attacking plane flies around this center point up, over, around, and then back in. The idea is to maintain enough separation throughout the maneuver for the room needed to eventually turn into the target. Flying too close will remove the required room to turn in and flying too far away will allow the target to escape or reverse. Think of the Barrel as being a path around the target that allows the faster plane to travel a longer distance around the target yet maintain the proper heading or vector to continue his progress toward angular gains. Boyd says: "employ bottom rudder" and on this point the maneuver is very difficult to understand for me, perhaps you can make more sense of the terminology. Yaw can direct the velocity vector just as the elevator can only not with as much effect since the elevator directs the lift force of the wings and the thrust of the engine whereas the rudder changes only the engines trust and any lift force created by the fuselage, and any combination of these forces. Picture the attacking pilot's perspective as he rolls to keep the target in his view. The attacking pilot maintains the target at his high 12 o'clock. How can yaw help in this task? What happens at the top of the barrel? Where is the target in the attackers forward up view; left, right or centered?]

6. Do not employ bottom rudder if your opponent rolls away from the turn and pulls up into the attack. Instead, employ top rudder and continue the roll from the inverted position. This will place you in a nose-high attitude at six-o'clock-low - a perfect set-up for a GAR-8 launch.
[At the start of the barrel roll the target is showing his canopy to the attacker. If the target reverses the turn at this point, such as would be done for a scissors maneuver, then the target would be showing his underside. The attacker is looking first at a plane passing from his right to his left during the initial zoom, as the attacker starts to roll, in this case rolling right; the target is now orbiting in the attackers view from the right side of his cockpit view to up and right as if the attacking pilot were watching the target fly to a twelve o???clock high position, of course, the attacking pilot is upside down. Rudder and Yaw can be used to point the plane at the target with bottom rudder as the target appears on the right, but if the opponent reverses and if the opponent pitches up then the attacker should stop the yaw to the right and down and start yawing to the left and up since the target is now showing his low 6, turning the other way and going up. The rudder is used to yaw in reaction to the targets maneuver as the roll progresses over the top. This is very difficult to see, for me, I used models to help. I think the next segment of Boyd's description brings us back to the critical moment before the decision is made to go inside or outside of the targets turn before rapid closure and before the pitch up. At this moment the attacker is again out of range and closing fast. The target has seen the attack coming and has started a defensive turn. For my example illustration I claim that the target turns left, breaks left, and the Attacker must decide if the target is going to continue turning left or left then right. The Attacker will cut off the left turn by leading the target for a Barrel Roll Attack or the Attacker does the following:

7. Pull up and zoom to the outside of your opponent's turn radius if you feel you can sucker him into a turn-reversal. If he reverses, continue with the following procedures.

8. Roll in a direction opposite your opponent's turn-reversal. This will reduce your vector velocity and help maintain longitudinal separation.

9. Play top or bottom rudder, according to whether your opponent pulls up or dives away after the reversal. If he pulls up, employ top rudder. This will allow you to roll nose-high toward a six-o'clock-low position. If he dives away, employ bottom rudder. This will allow you to roll nose-low and prevent your opponent from obtaining extreme longitudinal separation.
[The idea appears to be the same enforcement of vector and separation. Maintain the required separation to fly around the targets vector diagonally. If the target reverses, then, reverse the barrel roll attack. ???If you feel you can sucker him?????? are words describing someone with experience predicting and forcing opponents to act predictably i.e. Orient Observe Decide Act.

Aerial Attack Study (http://www.d-n-i.net/boyd/pdf/boydaerialattack.pdf)

I just found the above link.

Good hunting.

From:

Fighter Acs of the Luftwaffe
by
Col. Reaymond F. Toliver, USAF (Ret.) & Trevor J. Constable

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Eric soon fully developed the tactics of air fighting from which he would never depart. The four steps were: "See - Decide - Attack - Reverse, or 'coffe break." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>