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Tronickod
06-26-2007, 05:23 AM
Hello, I'm Thanos from Greece.

I builded a 2DOF motion simulator that currently works with MS flight simulator 2004 and MS Combat flight simulator2.

See it how it works here:

Full Motion Flight Sim on CFS2 Corsair
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYOmygb5XtQ

But I would like to make it work also with IL2. I see that there is Devicelink but I couldn't figure out how I can sent the pitch-bank info on the computers serial port to interface it with my motion sim electronics.

The software I use to retrieve the flight data from CFS2 is Keith's Portdrvr ( http://www.etherealsounds.com ).
Is there any similar software that can retrieve data from IL2?

Regards, Thanos

RamsteinUSA
06-26-2007, 05:35 AM
add a buttkicker, some pedals... a drink holder pissbucket,,, and off ya go!

seriously,,,
It looks like you used some electronic servos with very fast response time..

I don't see any counterweights, nor hydraulics... the motor noise, heat, and danger from hydraulics would be too much for inside a home..

cmirko
06-26-2007, 06:22 AM
could you add some details about your simulator ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif if there are DIY plans or something similar i know some people would be interested in them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


btw great work m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - I hope you can use it with IL2, in any way you could probably intercept joystick movement and use that info for moving your simulator....

Tronickod
06-26-2007, 06:36 AM
RamsteinUSA,I use custom servo motors made from regular car wiper motors!!!

cmirko, I have a site that I show in detailed photos the course of construction in more than 14 pages: www.motionflightsim.eu.tp (http://www.motionflightsim.eu.tp)
Its in greek for now but I'm setting up an english vesrion soon.

Following the joystick movement will not work. I'm using washout filters and calculations to represent the real forces that the pilot feels during flight.

Just hoping the creators of the game will help in making it compatible with my motion sim...

Regards, Thanos

papotex
06-26-2007, 04:39 PM
man thats awseom! well done!

that would rock for car racing sims too!

Codex1971
06-26-2007, 05:55 PM
Look up "DeviceLink" in these forums Tronickod, I'm sure thats what will get you up and running with this sim...excellent stuff btw!

WWSensei
06-26-2007, 07:07 PM
I know of two motion simulator companies that used my DeviceLink Wrapper specifically for working with IL2. Both were in Germany. X-Sim was one I believe.

M_Gunz
06-26-2007, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Tronickod:
Hello, I'm Thanos from Greece.

I builded a 2DOF motion simulator that currently works with MS flight simulator 2004 and MS Combat flight simulator2.

See it how it works here:

Full Motion Flight Sim on CFS2 Corsair
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYOmygb5XtQ


That what you have done is wonderful!
Did you build the frame from plastic tubing or metal pipe?


But I would like to make it work also with IL2. I see that there is Devicelink but I couldn't figure out how I can sent the pitch-bank info on the computers serial port to interface it with my motion sim electronics.

The software I use to retrieve the flight data from CFS2 is Keith's Portdrvr ( http://www.etherealsounds.com ).
Is there any similar software that can retrieve data from IL2?

Regards, Thanos

Devicelink information can be gotten straight from IL2 via UDP protocol.
If you have another PC to run the thing you made then check and see, maybe that PC can hook
up direct to the IL2 PC and make all the requests for data itself as well as get the returns.
Devicelink works between PC's/control panel to PC/all that.

Ohhhh, what the heck... this is from Devicelink.txt in your IL2 install folder.


The DeviceLink interface is meant to provide the third-party software with the
current condition of the player's aircraft as well as allow an unified method of
connecting alternative operating controls.

DeviceLink utilizes the UDP protocol to transfer the data. In this network, IL2
plays a part of the server. The external application sends a query packet, in
reply, IL2 sends back one (or several) packets containing the query result.
Proposing using the protocol within a single computer, ar a local network, no
data encoding is used and data integrity CRC-checks are not taken. Packets do
contain only symbolic information, the allowed range is (0x21-0x7e). A query
packet is preceded with an 'R' symbol, the resulting packed is preceded with an
'A'; followed by one or several "key"/"value" pairs. The "key" is the number
identifying a parameter. The "value" may be omitted or consist of a number of
copies. The semantics of the "value" depends on the parameter itself. The "keys"
are preceded with a '/', the "values" are preceded with a '\'. If a "value" is
to contain one of these symbols, it is preceded with a '\'. There are two types
of "keys" - (get) requiring to return the value of the given parameter, and
(set) setting the given parameter. The (get) keys are even while the latter ones
are odd. "Get-keys" may contain values for the specified parameter, the answer
packet returns the "value" with the "get-key". "Set-keys" may contain values for
the parameter, but with these the reply contains none.

Ex.:

key 40 - altimeter
key 81 - power
Query packet - R/40/81\1.6e-1
Return the aircraft altitude, and set the power to 1.6e-1.
Reply (answer) packet - A/40\534.3
Returns the current altitude 534.3 meters MSL.

The DeviceLink interface is activated if the [DeviceLink] section is found in the
conf.ini file. Within this section, "port" specifies the number of UDP port for
data transfer.
Using "host" parameter one can specify the address of the network interface in
use.
The "IPS" parameter restricts the allowed client IP addresses. If the "IPS"
parameter is not found in the section, any IP address is allowed to connect.

Ex.:

[DeviceLink]
port=10000
IPS=10.1.1.3 10.1.1.8

Port number is 10000, allowed clients are 10.1.1.3 and 10.1.1.8.



1. Parameters - common.



Version
2 get()
return: string containing DeviceLink version id.

accessible get
4 get(parameter key)
return: parameter key and 1 or 0 - wheither this key has get method
allowed in the current context (I.e. allowed during the mission
but not while mission is loading).

accessible set
6 get(parameter key)
return: parameter key and 1 or 0 - wheither this parameter has set method
allowed.

time of day
20 get()
return: float[hours] - current tome of the day within the game.

plane
22 get()
return: string identifying the player plane.

cockpits
24 get()
return: int, quantity of cockpits in the player aircraft.

cockpit cur
26 get()
return: int, number of the cockpit the player is currently in, starting
with 0. The cockpit # 0 is always the pilot in command's cockpit.
Returns -1 if the camera is on an external view.

engines
28 get()
return: int, quantity of engines on the player aircraft.



2. Parameters - instruments readings.



In current version, this section is disabled while playing the game over the
net.

speedometer_indicated
30 get()
return: float [km/h] +0.00 +inf

variometer
32 get()
return: float [m/s] -inf +inf

slip
34 get()
return: float [deg.] -45.00 +45.00

turn
36 get()
return: float [undefined] -1.00 +1.00
turn indicator

angular_speed
38 get()
return: float [deg./s] -inf +inf

altimeter
40 get()
return: float [m] +0.00 +inf

azimuth
42 get()
return: float [deg.] +0.00 +359.(9)

beacon_azimuth
44 get()
return: float [deg.] +0.00 +359.(9)

roll
46 get()
return: float [deg.] -180.00 +180.00

pitch
48 get()
return: float [deg.] -90.00 +90.00

fuel
50 get()
return: float [kg.] +0.00 +inf

overload
52 get()
return: float [undefined] -inf +inf

shake_level
54 get()
return: float [undefined] +0.00 +1.00

gear_pos_l
56 get()
return: float [undefined] +0.00 +1.00
left gear "leg" position

gear_pos_r
58 get()
return: float [undefined] +0.00 +1.00
right gear "leg" position

gear_pos_c
60 get()
return: float [undefined] +0.00 +1.00
central gear position

magneto
62 get(int - engine idx)
return: int [undefined] +0 +3

rpm
64 get(int - engine idx)
return: float [rpm] +0.00 +inf

manifold
66 get(int - engine idx)
return: float [bar] +0.00 +inf

temp_oilin
68 get(int - engine idx)
return: float [deg.C] -273.00 +inf

temp_oilout
70 get(int - engine idx)
return: float [deg.C] -273.00 +inf

temp_water
72 get(int - engine idx)
return: float [deg.C] -273.00 +inf

temp_cylinders
74 get(int - engine idx)
return: float [deg.C] -273.00 +inf



3. Parameters - controls.



3.1. Analog controls (joy axis).
"Value" is limited to -1.00 +1.00.



Power
80 get() return: float
81 set(float)

Flaps
82 get() return: float
83 set(float)

Aileron
84 get() return: float
85 set(float)

Elevator
86 get() return: float
87 set(float)

Rudder
88 get() return: float
89 set(float)

Brakes
90 get() return: float
91 set(float)

Prop Pitch
92 get() return: float
93 set(float)

Aileron Trim
94 get() return: float
95 set(float)

Elevator Trim
96 get() return: float
97 set(float)

Rudder Trim
98 get() return: float
99 set(float)



3.2. Discontinuous.
If the set method contains no value, calling it is equal to depressing the
corresponding hotkey once.



Level Stabilizer
100 get() return: 1 or 0
101 set()

Toggle Engine
103 set()

Boost (WEP) On/Off
104 get() return: 1 or 0
105 set()

Magneto Next
106 get() return: int 0 - 3
107 set()

Magneto Prev.
108 get() return: int 0 - 3
109 set()

Supercharger Next Stage
110 get() return: int
111 set()

Supercharger Prev. Stage
112 get() return: int
113 set()

Select All Engines
115 set()

Unselect All Engines
117 set()

Select Left Engines
119 set()

Select Right Engines
121 set()

Select Engine #1
123 set()

Select Engine #2
125 set()

Select Engine #3
127 set()

Select Engine #4
129 set()

Select Engine #5
131 set()

Select Engine #6
133 set()

Select Engine #7
135 set()

Select Engine #8
137 set()

Toggle Selection for All Engines
139 set()

Toggle Left Engines
141 set()

Toggle Right Engines
143 set()

Select/Unselect Engine #1
145 set()

Select/Unselect Engine #2
147 set()

Select/Unselect Engine #3
149 set()

Select/Unselect Engine #4
151 set()

Select/Unselect Engine #5
153 set()

Select/Unselect Engine #6
155 set()

Select/Unselect Engine #7
157 set()

Select/Unselect Engine #8
159 set()

Fire Extinguisher
161 set()

Feather Prop.
162 get() return: int
163 set()

Gear Up/Down
164 get() return: float
165 set()

Rise Gear manually
167 set()

Lower Gear manually
169 set()

Cowl or Armor Flaps
171 set()

Airbrake
172 get() return: int 0 - 1
173 set()

Lock Tail Wheel
174 get() return: int 0 - 1
175 set()

Jettison Droptanks
177 set()

Attach/Detach Aircraft
179 set()

Weapon 1
180 get() return: int 0 - 1
181 set(int) 1 - start 0 - stop

Weapon 2
182 get() return: int 0 - 1
183 set(int) 1 - start 0 - stop

Weapon 3
184 get() return: int 0 - 1
185 set(int) 1 - start 0 - stop

Weapon 4
186 get() return: int 0 - 1
187 set(int) 1 - start 0 - stop

Weapon 1+2
188 get() return: int 0 - 1
189 set(int) 1 - start 0 - stop

Toggle Gun Pods On/Off
190 get() return: int 0 - 1
191 set()

Toggle Sight Mode (Auto)
193 set()

Increase Sight Distance
195 set()

Decrease Sight Distance
197 set()

Adjust Sight Control to Right
199 set()

Adjust Sight Control to Left
201 set()

Increase Sight Altitude
203 set()

Decrease Sight Altitude
205 set()

Increase Sight Velocity
207 set()

Decrease Sight Velocity
209 set()

Toggle Wing Fold
210 get() return: int 0 - 1
211 set()

Open/Close Canopy
212 get() return: int 0 - 1
213 set()

Toggle Arresting Hook
214 get() return: int 0 - 1
215 set()

Toggle Chocks
216 get() return: int 0 - 1
217 set()

Gunner Fire
220 get() return: int 0 - 1
221 set(int) 1 - start 0 - stop

Gunner Move
223 set(int,int,int)
Increment of mouse movement along the 3 axis. The third one is not used
currently.



4. Parameters - camera control.



4.1. Discontinuous.
If the set method contains no value, calling it is equal to depressing the
corresponding hotkey once.



Pilot or Gunner Position
300 get() return: int current player cockpit idx
301 set()

Jump to Cockpit #1 (Pilot)
303 set()

Jump to Cockpit #2
305 set()

Jump to Cockpit #3
307 set()

Jump to Cockpit #4
309 set()

Jump to Cockpit #5
311 set()

Jump to Cockpit #6
313 set()

Jump to Cockpit #7
315 set()

Jump to Cockpit #8
317 set()

Jump to Cockpit #9
319 set()

Jump to Cockpit #10
321 set()

FOV 90
323 set()

FOV 85
325 set()

FOV 80
327 set()

FOV 75
329 set()

FOV 70
331 set()

FOV 65
333 set()

FOV 60
335 set()

FOV 55
337 set()

FOV 50
339 set()

FOV 45
341 set()

FOV 40
343 set()

FOV 35
345 set()

FOV 30
347 set()

Toggle FOV
348 get() return: float, current FOV, degrees.
349 set()

Increase FOV
351 set()

Decrease FOV
353 set()

Cockpit View
355 set()

No Cockpit View
357 set()

External View
359 set()

Next Friendly View
361 set()

Next Enemy View
363 set()

Fly-by View
365 set()

Padlock Enemy
367 set()

Padlock Friendly
369 set()

Padlock Enemy Ground
371 set()

Padlock Friendly Ground
373 set()

Padlock Next
375 set()

Padlock Previous
377 set()

Instant View Forward with Padlock
479 set(int) 1 - start 0 - stop

External Padlock, Enemy Air
381 set()

External Padlock, Friendly Air
383 set()

External Padlock, closest Enemy Air
385 set()

External Padlock, Enemy Ground
387 set()

External Padlock, Friendly Ground
389 set()

External Padlock, closest Enemy Ground
391 set()

Chase View
393 set()

Next Friendly Chase View
395 set()

Next Enemy Chase View
397 set()

Toggle Gunsight
399 set()

Toggle Seat Position
447 set()

4.2. Analogue.



TrackIR
11 set(float,float,float)
Sets the camera turn angles - yaw, pitch, and roll [deg.].
The roll param is ignored.



5. Parameters - misc.



5.1. Discontinuous.
If the set method contains no value, calling it is equal to depressing the
corresponding hotkey once.



Toggle Autopilot
401 set()

Toggle Level Autopilot
403 set()

Bail Out
405 set()

Tinted Reticle Dimmer (German Planes)
407 set()

Cockpit Lights
409 set()

Toggle Nav. Lights
411 set()

Toggle Landing Light
413 set()

Toggle Wingtip Smoke
415 set()

Toggle Map
417 set()

Chat
419 set()

Online Rating
421 set(int) 1 - show 0 - hide

Next Ratings Page
443 set()

Toggle Speed Bar
423 set()

Toggle Icon Types
425 set()

Toggle Mirrors Show/Mode
427 set()

Quick Start/Save Track
429 set()

Radio Mute Key
431 set(int) 1 - start 0 - stop

Mute
445 set()

Radio Channel Switch
433 set()

Accelerate Time x2/x4/x8
435 set()

Normal Time
437 set()

Decelerate Time x2/x4
439 set()

PauseGame
441 set()

Time Skip
449 set()



Data of pitch and roll should be quick and easy, your program keeps asking and
IL2 keeps sending back.

Tronickod
06-27-2007, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
I know of two motion simulator companies that used my DeviceLink Wrapper specifically for working with IL2. Both were in Germany. X-Sim was one I believe.

Yes, I know about X-sim, I already asked them about their software but its not compatible yet with servo motors, only pneumatics and on-off logic (relays).

As I see it I have to program my own software interface to send the servo data on the serial port :-(

Regards, Thanos

Tronickod
06-27-2007, 04:00 AM
M_Gunz, I use plasic PVC pipes for the moving cockpit. The design is from Joyrider (www.acesim.com). I just added the motors and the software to have the computer move it.


PS, Thanks for the devicelink info...

Thanos

Tbag_13
06-27-2007, 05:59 PM
I just added the motors and the software to have the computer move it.

You put the emphasis on "just", I guess. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Are those home made rudder pedals with force feedback?

M_Gunz
06-27-2007, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Tronickod:
M_Gunz, I use plasic PVC pipes for the moving cockpit. The design is from Joyrider (www.acesim.com). I just added the motors and the software to have the computer move it.

Just added? You worked that out by self or with help and not by following instructions then I
say you are by far modest.

If I can ask about that part, how you control what angles the tilting is made... do you use
sensors like joystick axes to tell control PC the tilt? And what kind of motors? Can they
be found in salvage like from old (junked) appliances (Washing machine, vacuum cleaner, etc)?


PS, Thanks for the devicelink info...

Thanos

I thank YOU! This hobby of flight sims is a small market and things like what you made and
SHOW THE WORLD may bring more people. Result is more support for these sims, better future.

So I see what you and many do as Very Good Things!

If you can make your frame able to lift and drop straight and to be able to move along X and Y
then you will be able to simulate G-forces to a small degree just as full size sim boxes do.

I can say that since I have some experience with those. But the coding cannot be direct due
to limited traversing and Safety as well. A real sim box is capable of shaking people inside
to death, for example, the safeties on those is highly redundant.

In those you feel a small amount of G's and it translates in the brain along with what you see
as more powerful sort of subliminal effect... and it works! The box will move the short ways
to make lesser G's at the start of the motion only and then very slowly moves back to neutral
position so you don't notice. Tricky code since there is no way to know ahead when the next
need to move might be. But when you take off and your butt is lifted, you notice. And when
you turn and your butt (and inner ear) get the sideways, it feels more right. And of course
when you are done flying you will find your hands have sweat more as well.

Tronickod
06-28-2007, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tronickod:
M_Gunz, I use plasic PVC pipes for the moving cockpit. The design is from Joyrider (www.acesim.com). I just added the motors and the software to have the computer move it.

Just added? You worked that out by self or with help and not by following instructions then I
say you are by far modest.

If I can ask about that part, how you control what angles the tilting is made... do you use
sensors like joystick axes to tell control PC the tilt? And what kind of motors? Can they
be found in salvage like from old (junked) appliances (Washing machine, vacuum cleaner, etc)?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, you got me, I made the motor pulley system by myself. I used simple 12volt car wiper motors coupled with the mechanism of caster weels to form a pulley the drives the cable which is attached to the frames. To measure position (angle) I used cheap 90drgrees potentioneters from RC control unit so I have full +45 to -45 degrees range. The pots are placed inside each caster that holds the frames.

To drive the motors I used Parallax's Basic Stamp2 in conjuction with HB-25 motor controllers programmed to act as proportional servo controller with feedback from the axis pots.

And finally the computer software (Keith Daniel's Portdrvr) is retrieving the actual flight data from MS flightsim and then sending them on the serial port as calculated servo data (with washout code calculations etc) in a simple form of three bytes that can be read from the Basic Stamp2 microntroller.

That was brief description of how this works.

I will soon make the detailed plans available so everyone can have an affortable home made motion cockpit to play his favorite games with.

What I wanted to have is an intermediate program that converts the devicelink data (pitch-bank) into three bytes sended on the serial port in the form of:
[sync byte]-[pitch byte]-[bank byte]

I don't know much about programming so if someone helps coding it, it will be a great addition to the flight community!


Regards, Thanos

M_Gunz
06-28-2007, 08:57 PM
Excellent go! I didn't think about motor control chips! You learn any of that in school or
from other teaching or help? We are none of us born knowing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
You see I would have done it in a less better way, old PC for all control.

And the Parallax STAMPs I have also seen. I have limited experience with 20 pin AVR and $50
development board from Dontronics in Australia. Neat chip, cheap and fast, few support parts
needed, but not much space and very simple command set. They can switch a good bit of power
directly (half an amp at up to 15V IIRC) but not enough for wiper motors.

And great job picking the wiper motors too! I've seen the video, it's wild!

There is a thread in General Discussion on devicelink and UDPSpeed, I asked about connect to
IL2 from 2nd PC but have to dig in yet another thread to find the details. I am betting
there is a simple way to connect a cable and external PC sends Q and gets A though I am not
sure if the ability is beyond the STAMP you have, some of those are quite powerful.

MAYBE IMPORTANT:
I have used the UDPSpeed program to not only log data but to customize the output to log.
If it can be configured to send user-formatted data to serial then you should be able to
run your 'cockpit' from IL2 without much fuss at all.

Here is that thread in General Discussion <== click! (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2511087684)

Tronickod
06-29-2007, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Excellent go! I didn't think about motor control chips! You learn any of that in school or
from other teaching or help? We are none of us born knowing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
You see I would have done it in a less better way, old PC for all control.

And the Parallax STAMPs I have also seen. I have limited experience with 20 pin AVR and $50
development board from Dontronics in Australia. Neat chip, cheap and fast, few support parts
needed, but not much space and very simple command set. They can switch a good bit of power
directly (half an amp at up to 15V IIRC) but not enough for wiper motors.

And great job picking the wiper motors too! I've seen the video, it's wild!


Well, I have previous experience in making robots and the proportional servo system I developed for my motion cockpit is based on an old robotic project that I have made:

2 Wheels Balancing Robot:
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=21&m=109179

The servo code is almost identical except that I used professional parts for the ADC and for the motor control!!


Also in parallax's forums I met Keith Daniel that wrote the Portdrvr and worked toggether to perfect it for years:
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=15&m=70615


Anyway ,you can take a look in the detailed photos of the construction of my motion sim in my greek forum:
www.motionflightsim.eu.tp (http://www.motionflightsim.eu.tp)
There are more than 14 pages there...

M_Gunz
06-29-2007, 12:54 PM
Yes, I had seen from link in the General Discussion forum! Again, excellent work!
But I am unable to read Greek.

You might sell complete plans and software (of course giving Keith a share?) or even kits
pre-cut with parts (get a deal going with Parrallax) of course pre-paid only with insured
shipping! If only 1 in 100 'interested' goes for it you still might have to hire workers!

You might make custom jobs for people not too far away. I am sure that you are not the only
in your part of the world who likes these things... again you might end up with "too much work".

Hey, move enough and you maybe make money bundling computer and software as well... how many
people with money to buy also want everything completely, totally set up and configured?

I wonder if there's a bobsled or luge sim out there? Ride the sled down different mountains!
If you make a way to set a saddle into that then motorcycle may be workable as well except
for when turning the G-force is still under you so perhaps not... and no bike sim has the
outputs yet.

Happy life to you regardless!

|CoB|_Spectre
06-30-2007, 10:01 AM
This is very impressive, Tronickod. I've been monitoring the subject for years, but the main obstacle seemed always to be in how to actuate safely, reliably and inexpensively. I would've never thought of using windshield wiper motors, but they are obviously designed with reversing action and long duty cycles in mind (might be driving in the rain for long hours). Your pulley system keeps the mechanical interface simple, which should translate to longevity and low cost. I hope you are able to make use of DeviceLink to fine-tune your project. One of the problems that seems to plague motion simulators is the "washout" when change rate has nulled, but your platform seems to handle it well. Tweaking for agreement of the visual and vestibular senses, I'm sure will be refined as the device continues to mature (i.e., wings level+horizon level=platform level). I applaude your work, very innovative. I'm looking forward to updates.

WWSensei
06-30-2007, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Tronickod:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
I know of two motion simulator companies that used my DeviceLink Wrapper specifically for working with IL2. Both were in Germany. X-Sim was one I believe.

Yes, I know about X-sim, I already asked them about their software but its not compatible yet with servo motors, only pneumatics and on-off logic (relays).

As I see it I have to program my own software interface to send the servo data on the serial port :-(

Regards, Thanos </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't need their software to do full motion siim on your own. You can use my interface like they did. I give my wrapper interface away for free. Source code and all.

Manos1
07-01-2007, 05:53 AM
Geia sou Thano !

One rather important piece of information:

The Device Link does not work when playing IL2FB online.

Device link works only when playing this game offline.

I think if you look at this thread you will find all information you want:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/49310655/m/7201027043/p/1

And tell us the weight of your construction, we may need to start considering transportation costs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kala mastoremata!

Manos

Tronickod
07-01-2007, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tronickod:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
I know of two motion simulator companies that used my DeviceLink Wrapper specifically for working with IL2. Both were in Germany. X-Sim was one I believe.

Yes, I know about X-sim, I already asked them about their software but its not compatible yet with servo motors, only pneumatics and on-off logic (relays).

As I see it I have to program my own software interface to send the servo data on the serial port :-(

Regards, Thanos </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't need their software to do full motion siim on your own. You can use my interface like they did. I give my wrapper interface away for free. Source code and all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It would be great if I could bypass x-sim at all. Do you have a link where I can download your wrapper interface? What programming language are you using? Can I use VB2006 with your wrapper interface or I have to use C too?

Regards, Thanos

Tronickod
07-01-2007, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Manos1:
Geia sou Thano !

One rather important piece of information:

The Device Link does not work when playing IL2FB online.

Device link works only when playing this game offline.

I think if you look at this thread you will find all information you want:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/49310655/m/7201027043/p/1

And tell us the weight of your construction, we may need to start considering transportation costs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kala mastoremata!

Manos

Thanks, Manos

I already know about the on-line limitations but I think that the creators of the game might allow a small "fix" for it since it will not let the players cheat while using it!!!

Its total weight is very small, under 60Kg, and you can easily carry it in small piecies with a van. :-) I assume that you want one? ;-)

Kales ptisis episis!!


Thanks, Thanos

Tronickod
07-01-2007, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Yes, I had seen from link in the General Discussion forum! Again, excellent work!
But I am unable to read Greek.

You might sell complete plans and software (of course giving Keith a share?) or even kits
pre-cut with parts (get a deal going with Parrallax) of course pre-paid only with insured
shipping! If only 1 in 100 'interested' goes for it you still might have to hire workers!

You might make custom jobs for people not too far away. I am sure that you are not the only
in your part of the world who likes these things... again you might end up with "too much work".

Hey, move enough and you maybe make money bundling computer and software as well... how many
people with money to buy also want everything completely, totally set up and configured?

I wonder if there's a bobsled or luge sim out there? Ride the sled down different mountains!
If you make a way to set a saddle into that then motorcycle may be workable as well except
for when turning the G-force is still under you so perhaps not... and no bike sim has the
outputs yet.

Happy life to you regardless!



M_Gunz, thanks for your comments,

Wow, you mean going in bussiness with this!! It takes a lot of investment and hard work to actually do this. Maybe later If I design a flawless model that is durable enouph for the average user. It still needs some knowledge of repairing this thing and its software is under development yet. And many aspects of it need upgrade and one of these is the power source. I use simple computer PSU's but I don't know yet how reliable can be for prolonged use. Last time I flown for several hours but what if someone runs it continuesly for a day?

I have yet to add yaw movement and if possible heave to expierence some feeling of G's.

So for now I will give this amateur work to the world for free hopping it will enlarge the interest and eventually have a future that home motion sims will be affortable for everyone. In return I might get people with better programming knowledge from me interface it with more simulators (flight, car racing, motor bike or even ship simulator :-) )

It would be nice making money from it to be able to further develop it but after all its just a hobby for me!


Regards, Thanos

Tronickod
07-01-2007, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by |CoB|_Spectre:
This is very impressive, Tronickod. I've been monitoring the subject for years, but the main obstacle seemed always to be in how to actuate safely, reliably and inexpensively. I would've never thought of using windshield wiper motors, but they are obviously designed with reversing action and long duty cycles in mind (might be driving in the rain for long hours). Your pulley system keeps the mechanical interface simple, which should translate to longevity and low cost. I hope you are able to make use of DeviceLink to fine-tune your project. One of the problems that seems to plague motion simulators is the "washout" when change rate has nulled, but your platform seems to handle it well. Tweaking for agreement of the visual and vestibular senses, I'm sure will be refined as the device continues to mature (i.e., wings level+horizon level=platform level). I applaude your work, very innovative. I'm looking forward to updates.

|CoB|_Spectre, thanks too for your comments,

As I said above I just wanted the world to have an inexpensive alternative to the industrial solutions that big motion sim companies are forcing us that its right to use.

Best Regards, Thanos

Manos1
07-02-2007, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Tronickod:
Its total weight is very small, under 60Kg, and you can easily carry it in small piecies with a van. :-) I assume that you want one? ;-)

You bet !
But I will need a special version to have all my monitors around me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
http://www.e-335thgr.com/Athos/TripleHead2Go_01.JPG

Actually I have a different reason to ask (which town are you based anyway?)
As I work for one of the bigest transportation companies in the world, I feel you will need some help to get decent transportation prices since sending 60kg around the world may turn up more expensive than the kit itself...
(Interattica in Greece is one of our companies...)

Good luck with your project!

RGDS,
Manos

M_Gunz
07-02-2007, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Tronickod:
Wow, you mean going in bussiness with this!!

It would beat mowing lawns for money. Or a lot of other things.


It takes a lot of investment and hard work to actually do this.

Price goes up. You would also need to check into taxes and whatever else government requires.
So far I see potential for making one here, one there to start. And for things like that,
in US there are rules for hobby and amateur that no big fees of licenses, etc, required all
based on of course not making a lot of money either. I have a friend that did sewing on that
basis. She made dresses and things for people and was paid enough to make it worth doing.
So no big deal except it helped her and husband in raising three kids, just some extra money
and maybe some not spoken of. If I make a pot and sell it, how many ways can I do the sale?

Kits requires perfected ways of doing everything. THEN you would be Business with capital B.


Maybe later If I design a flawless model that is durable enouph for the average user. It still needs some knowledge of repairing this thing and its software is under development yet.

Yes, a ways to go even for your own! Might be years. Maybe by then you get good job and have
too little spare time.

If you can find a way to fill the PVC tubes with expanding foam, the kind sold in the cans to
seal holes and sold here in construction supply stores (search on Home Depot or Lowes here)
and be sure the kind that sets hard -- it will make those tubes +much+ stronger. But then
cost goes up and maybe you don't really need.


And many aspects of it need upgrade and one of these is the power source. I use simple computer PSU's but I don't know yet how reliable can be for prolonged use. Last time I flown for several hours but what if someone runs it continuesly for a day?

Start by looking at what the wiper motors can do and what they require for power. If they get
hot while you are using them then they will draw more power (hot electric motors do that) but
fix can be simple as big heat sink (block of aluminum and maybe a fan) attached solid to the
motor casing, lithium water pump grease between or even solder may help heat transfer.

Wiper motors on car use fuses, so many amps at 12V. If the power supply makes 2x or more
the amps of 12V then there should be no problems there.


I have yet to add yaw movement and if possible heave to expierence some feeling of G's.

Those would be for Mark 2 and later models maybe? It depends on you. The "big time" sim
boxes cost millions but have inside full real cockpit as well. For business the first step
is to find a need and level that you can fulfill. I think even without G's you have a thing
that many IL2 and CFS players desire already.

G's is funny business since I think you violate a bit there, but most neither care nor notice
because it's easy to see what you have must be FUN to use. It is the FUN that is most important!

What is violate? Plane in 30 degree bank coordinated turn, you feel down to be the floor just
as when you fly level. In stationary frame tilted 30 degrees, down is now to your relative
side. But it is not noticed while watching the screen anyway... something to think about.

If the screen was to tilt some of the way while player tilt some of the way and the whole
rig covered (wire and cloth or just cardboard) to remove outside cues where is horizon then
you get more real. What is on the screen is #1 to impression already, removing outside view
only makes that stronger to the brain.
Angle of horizon on screen to where down feels (for your frame, down felt is real down unlike
in moving plane) and how they match only adds to the impression.

Just to try what you have with a large cardboard box on top excluding view of room -- see what
that does to your experience.

You can make some feel of accelerate forward by tilt slightly back is not doing it too fast
and slowing down, tilt a little forward. Little bit only, just a hint and not try for the
full G's. That is how the multi-million $ boxes work. Subtle but effective.


So for now I will give this amateur work to the world for free hopping it will enlarge the interest and eventually have a future that home motion sims will be affortable for everyone. In return I might get people with better programming knowledge from me interface it with more simulators (flight, car racing, motor bike or even ship simulator :-) )

It would be nice making money from it to be able to further develop it but after all its just a hobby for me!

You are good person. Keep on and don't worry, there are always those who would much, much
rather buy than build. Give it time. If you don't do it, someone else probably will. That
is also business.

WWSensei
07-02-2007, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Tronickod:

It would be great if I could bypass x-sim at all. Do you have a link where I can download your wrapper interface? What programming language are you using? Can I use VB2006 with your wrapper interface or I have to use C too?

Regards, Thanos

It's a C++ wrapper, but could be compiled into a DLL for inclusion via header file. All info can be found here...including online docs:

http://www.wingwalkers.org/Forum/viewforum.php?f=96

Top sticky thread has all the appropriate links.

Tronickod
07-03-2007, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tronickod:

It would be great if I could bypass x-sim at all. Do you have a link where I can download your wrapper interface? What programming language are you using? Can I use VB2006 with your wrapper interface or I have to use C too?

Regards, Thanos

It's a C++ wrapper, but could be compiled into a DLL for inclusion via header file. All info can be found here...including online docs:

http://www.wingwalkers.org/Forum/viewforum.php?f=96

Top sticky thread has all the appropriate links. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The link for the sample application isn't working... Can you fix it?

Regards, Thanos

Lurch1962
07-03-2007, 06:48 PM
Tronickod,
This fascinates me!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

May I make a suggestion? Try mounting the monitor nearer to your face so as to enjoy a larger apparent view angle. With more of your peripheral vision utilised, the immersion factor will go up exponentially!

Moreover, when you fly with the wider FOV (field of view) settings, making the monitor view as large as possible makes the simulated view closer to what the real life view would be.

I've set up my "flight station" so that my 19" CRT monitor is about 1 foot (30cm) from my eyes, and I use reading glasses so that it's in good, comfortable focus. With IL-2's FOV set to the widest, 90 degrees, the view I get from my monitor is also close to 90 degrees, resulting in a near 1:1 correspondence with reality. (Even though I have no motion simulator, when low flying over rough terrain or large cities I get that queasy feeling in my stomach. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif )

And if you use some form of hood to block out the view of the room, so much the better.

I'd love to hear your results if you decide to try any of these suggestions.

And keep up the good work! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

--Lurch--

RamsteinUSA
07-04-2007, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by Tronickod:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Yes, I had seen from link in the General Discussion forum! Again, excellent work!
But I am unable to read Greek.

You might sell complete plans and software (of course giving Keith a share?) or even kits
pre-cut with parts (get a deal going with Parrallax) of course pre-paid only with insured
shipping! If only 1 in 100 'interested' goes for it you still might have to hire workers!

You might make custom jobs for people not too far away. I am sure that you are not the only
in your part of the world who likes these things... again you might end up with "too much work".

Hey, move enough and you maybe make money bundling computer and software as well... how many
people with money to buy also want everything completely, totally set up and configured?

I wonder if there's a bobsled or luge sim out there? Ride the sled down different mountains!
If you make a way to set a saddle into that then motorcycle may be workable as well except
for when turning the G-force is still under you so perhaps not... and no bike sim has the
outputs yet.

Happy life to you regardless!



M_Gunz, thanks for your comments,

Wow, you mean going in bussiness with this!! It takes a lot of investment and hard work to actually do this. Maybe later If I design a flawless model that is durable enouph for the average user. It still needs some knowledge of repairing this thing and its software is under development yet. And many aspects of it need upgrade and one of these is the power source. I use simple computer PSU's but I don't know yet how reliable can be for prolonged use. Last time I flown for several hours but what if someone runs it continuesly for a day?

I have yet to add yaw movement and if possible heave to expierence some feeling of G's.

So for now I will give this amateur work to the world for free hopping it will enlarge the interest and eventually have a future that home motion sims will be affortable for everyone. In return I might get people with better programming knowledge from me interface it with more simulators (flight, car racing, motor bike or even ship simulator :-) )

It would be nice making money from it to be able to further develop it but after all its just a hobby for me!


Regards, Thanos </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To add G-Force feel:
add air bladder(s) in the seat back, and bottom. Have them deflate for Positive G's and the other way around for negative G's. Disneyland used to use this trick in their old, and long gone, 'Rocket Ship to the Moon' ride.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

WWSensei
07-04-2007, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Tronickod:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tronickod:

It would be great if I could bypass x-sim at all. Do you have a link where I can download your wrapper interface? What programming language are you using? Can I use VB2006 with your wrapper interface or I have to use C too?

Regards, Thanos

It's a C++ wrapper, but could be compiled into a DLL for inclusion via header file. All info can be found here...including online docs:

http://www.wingwalkers.org/Forum/viewforum.php?f=96

Top sticky thread has all the appropriate links. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The link for the sample application isn't working... Can you fix it?

Regards, Thanos </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry about that. Somewhere along the way the file got deleted. Should be good now.

Skoshi Tiger
07-05-2007, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
Sorry about that. Somewhere along the way the file got deleted. Should be good now.

Hi WWSensei,

I been trying to nut-out the Devicelink interface for a little while and was getting nowhere fast. (Although I've got programming background I've never done IP programming before)

Then I found your posts and a link to your wrapper over at Frugal's World.

Now even though I'm working in Delphi and using the Overbytes ICS components, I looked though your c++ wrapper and they gave me the 'bits' of the puzzle I needed to get my programs talking with IL2 (at about 7.30pm last night infact)

Thankyou very much! It's generous and giving people like your self that are so valuable to the online community.

It's only when you try to get somethng like this working that you find out how badly documented some of the development packages are. (Or maybe it's how bad I am at reading the documentation, who knows????)

Now my original goal was making a virtual instrument pannel, but it wasn't until after I started working on it I found out there were 2 or 3 pannels already in development 'P51D, UDPSpeed' and others. So I'm not sure how far I will end up taking mine. But Just being able to get the communications up and running and retrieving values from Il2 is a great thing.

Thanks again!

Tronickod
07-08-2007, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
Sorry about that. Somewhere along the way the file got deleted. Should be good now.

Hi WWSensei,

I been trying to nut-out the Devicelink interface for a little while and was getting nowhere fast. (Although I've got programming background I've never done IP programming before)

Then I found your posts and a link to your wrapper over at Frugal's World.

Now even though I'm working in Delphi and using the Overbytes ICS components, I looked though your c++ wrapper and they gave me the 'bits' of the puzzle I needed to get my programs talking with IL2 (at about 7.30pm last night infact)

Thankyou very much! It's generous and giving people like your self that are so valuable to the online community.

It's only when you try to get somethng like this working that you find out how badly documented some of the development packages are. (Or maybe it's how bad I am at reading the documentation, who knows????)

Now my original goal was making a virtual instrument pannel, but it wasn't until after I started working on it I found out there were 2 or 3 pannels already in development 'P51D, UDPSpeed' and others. So I'm not sure how far I will end up taking mine. But Just being able to get the communications up and running and retrieving values from Il2 is a great thing.

Thanks again! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, what about a motion simulation software for IL2? I have no such knowledge to do so, but since you already figured out the communication stuff, you could sure send some values like pitch and bank to the serial port (HEX values 0 - 255 with 127 being center)...

I have my motion simulator already interfaced with MS flight Sim 2004 and CFS2 and it would be awesome if I could use it for IL2 too!!

Regards, Thanos

Tronickod
07-08-2007, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:

To add G-Force feel:
add air bladder(s) in the seat back, and bottom. Have them deflate for Positive G's and the other way around for negative G's. Disneyland used to use this trick in their old, and long gone, 'Rocket Ship to the Moon' ride.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I just installed a car racing bucket seat that has soft bottom and maybe add there some air bladders or something to simulate some vertical G's!!!

Rgrds, Thanos

WWSensei
07-08-2007, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
Sorry about that. Somewhere along the way the file got deleted. Should be good now.

Hi WWSensei,

I been trying to nut-out the Devicelink interface for a little while and was getting nowhere fast. (Although I've got programming background I've never done IP programming before)

Then I found your posts and a link to your wrapper over at Frugal's World.

Now even though I'm working in Delphi and using the Overbytes ICS components, I looked though your c++ wrapper and they gave me the 'bits' of the puzzle I needed to get my programs talking with IL2 (at about 7.30pm last night infact)

Thankyou very much! It's generous and giving people like your self that are so valuable to the online community.

It's only when you try to get somethng like this working that you find out how badly documented some of the development packages are. (Or maybe it's how bad I am at reading the documentation, who knows????)

Now my original goal was making a virtual instrument pannel, but it wasn't until after I started working on it I found out there were 2 or 3 pannels already in development 'P51D, UDPSpeed' and others. So I'm not sure how far I will end up taking mine. But Just being able to get the communications up and running and retrieving values from Il2 is a great thing.

Thanks again! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad my stuff could be of help, even in an indirect way.

Skoshi Tiger
07-08-2007, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Tronickod:
Hey, what about a motion simulation software for IL2? I have no such knowledge to do so, but since you already figured out the communication stuff, you could sure send some values like pitch and bank to the serial port (HEX values 0 - 255 with 127 being center)...

I have my motion simulator already interfaced with MS flight Sim 2004 and CFS2 and it would be awesome if I could use it for IL2 too!!

Regards, Thanos

At the moment there would only be one major hurdle.

In Windows 95 we could uses c functions like outp and outport to send the hex value staight to the serial port.

Unfortunately, (Please could anyone correct me if I'm wrong or theres a workaround) Windows NT and above (ie. Windows XP) restricts direct access to the the computers hardware. To get access you need to create a device driver program, which unfortuately is beyond my experience (at the moment)!

You can buy 3rd party Software tools that would allow you to do it but my wife's got me so far under her thumb, that I'm going to have to go searching under the car seat and do odd jobs up and down the street just to find the money to buy BOB when it comes out. (I'll probably need to don 'Fishnets' to afford the new PC I'll need to run it on! )

M_Gunz
07-08-2007, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
You can buy 3rd party Software tools that would allow you to do it but my wife's got me so far under her thumb, that I'm going to have to go searching under the car seat and do odd jobs up and down the street just to find the money to buy BOB when it comes out.

So far for you able to play IL2, how many kids in your town "look like you"?
And the dogs don't even bark when you go to the back door...

Skoshi Tiger
07-09-2007, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
So far for you able to play IL2, how many kids in your town "look like you"?
And the dogs don't even bark when you go to the back door...

The thing I don't understand is how I've managed to have so many kids when I'm always at work and never have a chance for any fun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif - just keep forking out the money on irrelivant things like food , dentists and school books for the kids!

WWSensei
07-09-2007, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tronickod:
Hey, what about a motion simulation software for IL2? I have no such knowledge to do so, but since you already figured out the communication stuff, you could sure send some values like pitch and bank to the serial port (HEX values 0 - 255 with 127 being center)...

I have my motion simulator already interfaced with MS flight Sim 2004 and CFS2 and it would be awesome if I could use it for IL2 too!!

Regards, Thanos

Unfortunately, (Please could anyone correct me if I'm wrong or theres a workaround) Windows NT and above (ie. Windows XP) restricts direct access to the the computers hardware. To get access you need to create a device driver program, which unfortuately is beyond my experience (at the moment)!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somewhat true. The hardware is abstracted out a layer, but in reality it makes it about 1000 times easier to deal with than the old way which was very prone to errors. It's abstracted in such a way that you can write the code and allow the output to be dynamically changed to be a serial port, or USB or firewire or parallel port by simply changing the output rather than having to write code for each individual port type.

M_Gunz
07-12-2007, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
Somewhat true. The hardware is abstracted out a layer, but in reality it makes it about 1000 times easier to deal with than the old way which was very prone to errors. It's abstracted in such a way that you can write the code and allow the output to be dynamically changed to be a serial port, or USB or firewire or parallel port by simply changing the output rather than having to write code for each individual port type.

You need special software tools and a good deal of current version Winblows knowledge to start.
Who knows what the next change will do to the life of your software as well.

But, and I'm sure it could be done... a universal port driver that would let me control I/O
pins of both parallel and serial ports is a thing of beauty. There is so much robotics that
can be done from a bi-directional PP, even at the most simple level. With cheap opto-isolators
even the PC is protected as was demonstrated in 1996 when one of my rigs was short circuited,
the cost to fix was under $1 and 2 minutes time.

I know you can get USB for anything but it's not so cheap and IMO takes more work plus you
don't get the I/O pins without adding another chip at the least. For the low level hobbyist,
the PP is a thing of beauty that since NT/W2000/XP has been very hard to get to.

Well, we still can do a lot via the MIDI port.

Skoshi Tiger
07-14-2007, 08:56 PM
Another bit of the puzzle falls into place.

I finally found a FREE (for non commercial applications) io library (that works with windows XP) at a web site.

http://www.logix4u.net/inpout32.htm

Its a Dynamic Link Library that gives you two functions inp32 and out32. So programming should be basically the same as using he old DOS in and out functions.

I've actually got their sample apps to compile on my system with only a few modifications (A major achievement in my opinion), so I can read and write to a port.

Now I'll have to dig through the shed and see if I can find the old parallel interface hobby kit I soldered together many moons ago and see if I can actually get it to work.


By the way I've just come back from holidays at the family beach house ( in a place called Ledge Point WA). Now I'm normally not too phased with spiders but I found a nasty big black hairy brute that really gave me the Heebee-Geebees. I've never seen spider one so much attitude before. Yes, I did know they were out there but normally you don't see them!

M_Gunz
07-15-2007, 04:10 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

And, uhhh, wow!

WWSensei
07-15-2007, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
Somewhat true. The hardware is abstracted out a layer, but in reality it makes it about 1000 times easier to deal with than the old way which was very prone to errors. It's abstracted in such a way that you can write the code and allow the output to be dynamically changed to be a serial port, or USB or firewire or parallel port by simply changing the output rather than having to write code for each individual port type.

You need special software tools and a good deal of current version Winblows knowledge to start.
Who knows what the next change will do to the life of your software as well.

But, and I'm sure it could be done... a universal port driver that would let me control I/O
pins of both parallel and serial ports is a thing of beauty. There is so much robotics that
can be done from a bi-directional PP, even at the most simple level. With cheap opto-isolators
even the PC is protected as was demonstrated in 1996 when one of my rigs was short circuited,
the cost to fix was under $1 and 2 minutes time.

I know you can get USB for anything but it's not so cheap and IMO takes more work plus you
don't get the I/O pins without adding another chip at the least. For the low level hobbyist,
the PP is a thing of beauty that since NT/W2000/XP has been very hard to get to.

Well, we still can do a lot via the MIDI port. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Special software? No, just the same free SDKs that have been available for free, for years. If nothing else you can download the DirectX SDK. Yes, you do need a compiler but hose are available as well. Windows knoweldge? yes, but that isn't as hard as learning serial/parallel line programming. However, writing to bstracted layers isn't relagted to just Windows. For example, Linux does it too.

My point is spending time writing specific to a serial or parallel port is extremely short sighted and self limiting. It's not 1995 anymore and writing to an abstracted layer is considered standard fare.

Done correctly, you write the communication layer and whether it is parallel port, serial line or USB is irrelevant--just a flag you pass on initialization. You don't "write to a USB" (it's missing the pins because they aren't needed, but that's another discussion) you just write your code of what you want communicated.

If you are going to code to the raw port then don't waste time with a 3rd order language and just do a micro-controller. You are looking at things the wrong way around--NT/W2K/XP don't make "getting to the PP hard to do"--they make it completely unnecessary. It makes it many times easier. You don't have to wait for your universa port driver--it's already here and has been for years. It's called the HID--(Human-Interface-Device) and is even supported under Linux.

Skoshi Tiger
07-15-2007, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
Special software? No, just the same free SDKs that have been available for free, for years. If nothing else you can download the DirectX SDK. Yes, you do need a compiler but hose are available as well. Windows knoweldge? yes, but that isn't as hard as learning serial/parallel line programming. However, writing to bstracted layers isn't relagted to just Windows. For example, Linux does it too.

My point is spending time writing specific to a serial or parallel port is extremely short sighted and self limiting. It's not 1995 anymore and writing to an abstracted layer is considered standard fare.

Done correctly, you write the communication layer and whether it is parallel port, serial line or USB is irrelevant--just a flag you pass on initialization. You don't "write to a USB" (it's missing the pins because they aren't needed, but that's another discussion) you just write your code of what you want communicated.

If you are going to code to the raw port then don't waste time with a 3rd order language and just do a micro-controller. You are looking at things the wrong way around--NT/W2K/XP don't make "getting to the PP hard to do"--they make it completely unnecessary. It makes it many times easier. You don't have to wait for your universa port driver--it's already here and has been for years. It's called the HID--(Human-Interface-Device) and is even supported under Linux.

Please be kind to poor old gamers! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif My professional experiance (Database programming) as a programmer came to an end in the late 90's when I became a teacher. Any systems programming was very basic. So a lot of the concepts that we're dealing with are quite hard to get our heads around.

One of the things that doesn't make it easier for us is that a lot of the Hobbyist books and sites on the web still show examples in archaic languages like QBasic. It was left up to us to translate them into a language like C or pascal and put some structure in there.

Years ago (6 maybe??) I bought a kit of an parallel IO board, and then a stepper motor driver. The software examples for the IO Board were in Qbasic and the stepper motor driver was for some obscure basic that ran on CPM machines. Not long ago I went back to the shop I bought the Io board from and they were still selling the same kit with the same Qbasic programing examples. I asked if the there was any upadates and the spotty faced sales assistant did a Homer Simpson impersonation, shrugged his shoulders and said 'Uh, I don't Know!'. In the Book section the Robotics texts were still using in's and outs directly to ports!

Thanks for your pointer to the 'HID'. It's a bit like Grotefend and his word for 'King'. Little bits of information like this help us to know what to look for.

Cheers! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Metalgear_1
07-16-2007, 06:23 AM
File Thanasi to project sou einai para poly endiaferwn. Tha hthela na epikoinwnhsoume an thes kai esy gia na sou kanw mia protash!

Eyxaristw
Kwstas

Tronickod
07-16-2007, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by Metalgear_1:
File Thanasi to project sou einai para poly endiaferwn. Tha hthela na epikoinwnhsoume an thes kai esy gia na sou kanw mia protash!

Eyxaristw
Kwstas

Kai bebaia file, oti thes. Steile mou email sto tronickod@yahoo.com

Thanos

M_Gunz
07-16-2007, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
Special software? No, just the same free SDKs that have been available for free, for years. If nothing else you can download the DirectX SDK. Yes, you do need a compiler but hose are available as well. Windows knoweldge? yes, but that isn't as hard as learning serial/parallel line programming. However, writing to bstracted layers isn't relagted to just Windows. For example, Linux does it too.

Okay, you got me. I "didn't do Windows" and trusted what I was told by I guess the wrong people.

And for how hard to learn serial/parallel port I/O, hey I got PAID to do that. I still dunno
if the HID is going to let me (or anyone) hang sensors and run motor control from the PP.

Did you know that to cause a true-input to port requires pulling current from it?