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AFJ_Locust
06-20-2005, 12:28 PM
DIE POST DIE

pacettid
06-20-2005, 12:40 PM
S! Locust,

After flying 4.01 for about a week now, I have not noticed a significant mismatch between Axis and Allied mounts; however, this may be due to the fact that I normally only fly on my virtual squadron's server, and the plane-sets there are historical, and are alot more limited than what I normally see on most online, dedicated servers.

I do think the development team is going to have to address the trim issue though as, based on what we have seen so far, the ability to exploit the trim to tighten turns to an unrealistic level is going to be a problem.

Like anything new, the new FMs will all have to be "wrung out", and adjustments made accordingly...keep the faith buddy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

BigDog9944
06-20-2005, 12:46 PM
On GreaterGreen the other day I took out four 109's on a single sortie in a Hurri IIC. I don't quite know what model the 109's were, but I think it shows at least that early war Allies planes are competitive with the Germans.

p.s. I fly as RCAF_FB_Jones

Vipez-
06-20-2005, 12:54 PM
Well, I agree that Germans have better chances now than ever in history if this flight simulation.. that is for sure.. but it's not the FMs that have changed signifcantly from 3.04m (BTW i don't think german planes are UFOs, i only classify ufos MIG3, and LA7/KI84, as you can pull and yank the stick as hard as you can without stalling..). Simply it's improved MG151/20, that made german planes much more lethal now. Yes, due to this reason FW190D became one of the best planes in the game.

I guess Allied fighter jockeys (by the way i don't mean your squad by saying this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) have not yet get used to the idea, you no longer can sustain damage from german 20mm http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Flying as red, you simply have to think what you are doing in the sky.. Perhaps you are trying to turn too hard, besides it's the german planes that have lost some top speed, FW190 A-4 A-9 each of then have lost about 10 kmh from topspeed comparing to 3.04m. And at the same time P51D have gained about 10-15 kmh more speed at sealevel, making it better hit&run plane at the moment.

Brain32
06-20-2005, 01:02 PM
Well I am mostly "offliner" that doesent give sh*t for eternal flame wars between "blue" and "red".
I must say that I can't agree with you but you haven't stated much reasons for your opinion...
For those you did:
1:Mk108 is a 30mm shell If you had ever seen one you wouldn't be so suprised; about mg151/20: it's finally right if you were flying almost all planes like I do you would be extremely pissed with mg151/20 before 4.01 patch

2: Yes I hear the trim trick is here again, but when ever I try it I get blacked out or loose so much speed that my adversary easily escapes/counters...

The biggest problem for most allied planes is the position of yaw indicator wich is way out of sight and especially for american planes the fact that you can't saw a wing with .50cal from 400m anymore(BTW that was VERY fun but realistic is good too).

faustnik
06-20-2005, 01:34 PM
Warclouds Stats (http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/index.php?navigation=plane/all/index.html)

Looks like you are completely wrong Locust. The US a/c are doing better than the LW a/c or at least holding their own.

What in specific do you think is making the LW so "uber"? Is it a specific a/c model?

I got a chance to try the Mustang III on Warclouds this weekend and didn't feel outclassed by anything. I haven't tried anything else.

VW-IceFire
06-20-2005, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
I need honest people that fly bolth Allied & German ac to voice there Opinions here.

Not a bunch who love allied or Axis ac only, with biased opinions... (Ya I know Im dreaming but I thought Id try)

In my opinion German ac now totaly dominate the sim... I can fly for hours in a P51D20 and get only a few kills now but if i hop in a Dora,G6AS,G2,G10 Ill have 4 to 6 kills per flight they turn Harder then ever now with the new bat trim, there just as fast as ever, and the 1 shot kills with 108 or 151 because of new flight model...

what can be flown to counter these new uber UFO's that are alot worse then the spit ever was. NOTHING except maybe La7 LOL

anyone else feal the game is now slanted to blue or am I just paranoid ?
I fly both equally or nearly equally so.

The Russian planes are now at a disadvantage. Although I feel like they have been in 3.04 as well, they are especially at a disadvantage now. And I don't mean in some dorky dogfight server but in historical matchups (Kursk, Kuban, Crimea, Moscow, Balaaton and Berlin). However, to a certain extent thats true. From what I've read, the VVS was loosing 2:1 or more during the entire war right up till the end and that it was sheer numbers that made up for it. What we really see however is the very late war VVS fighters becoming just effective enough to match the Luftwaffe in all areas or better. The La-5FN, the Yak-9U, and the La-7 are the planes that are generally better than their German counterparts in performance...although now we see how the German planes still prevail on firepower and this makes the last year of conflict much more evenly balanced.

From the Western Allied perspective we're missing most RAF planes past 1943 although we've got most of the USAAF planes that we need for 1944 and early 1945.

But here's what I think. The Mustang Mark III and P-38L Late are great equalizers. Both of these are very fast, the P-38L is well armed, and they are very good planes. Against the contemporary 109s and 190s is much more difficult as they now have their historical firepower advantage that they have been robbed of for quite some time.

On the flipside, the FW190 and Bf109 have been beefed up on the DM side and they are more resistant to HMGs than before. The FW190 can soak up HMGs alot...and most FW190 pilots as well as most Allied pilots agree that its too much. Its a 180 degree reversal from the extremely poor fireprone DM that we had before...neither are good.

But we do see some vague generalizations come into play that weren't as prevalent before.

Allied planes are generally a bit faster and sometimes better climbing (in late war). The Axis planes are generally better armed and faster only with special engine boost with climb rates being close but usually with Allied planes out ahead.

I think there are now DM issues to be worked out. The .50cal against some targets works quite well while against other targets its not very effective anymore. Take the Zero...it used to be more resistant...its now very vulnerable to just a few well placed .50cal hits. The Ki-84 is easy to light up on the two wing fuel tanks as well as the engine. Take the same weapon and fire it at a Mustang...still goes through it fairly nicely. Fire it at a 190...you can be there all day unless you're really lucky.

The Axis does not dominate the sim. They now have some historical advantages addressed. We have a difficult scenario to balance against because the Allies should have the greater quantity of aircraft and pilots but thats harder to simulate. Some historical imbalance now exists but the Axis does not have any significant a-historical advantage, even with the best planes available, against the Allies.

I have utmost confidence in the abilities, tactics, and teamwork of Allied pilots flying the Spitfire IX, P-51D-20, P-47D-27 (still the king of ultra high altitude and fighter bomber), and the P-38 with its new incredible slow speed and torqueless flight. The Spitfire is less of the "uber" machine that it was...its now quite good for a 1943 machine but not as significant of a danger in 1944 (as its boosted for 1943 only). Adding the Spitfire XIV and the Tempest V would give the Allies more options but I still think equal in the end.

The Allies have some great machines, there are some bugs on both sides needing to be addressed but when it comes to a combination of fighter and fighter bomber and bomber/attack bomber aircraft the Allied side has a bigger pool to draw on and more flexible opportunities.

Regardless of any balancing with the actual aircraft, the best pilots on both sides will be better than others and shoot down far more no matter what. My goal is to be a good pilot no matter what plane I'm flying or what side it is. Blue, red, I fly both and I think both are very closely balanced...despite the fact that we're aiming for historical performance rather than gameplay performance.

SeaFireLIV
06-20-2005, 01:43 PM
Haven`t gone back online yet. I hope to rejoin my squad and go back soon, but offline I don`t see this.

Things do feel very disadvantaged in the early war years as an I16 pilot because the AI really uses it`s speed to fight the war to its advantage. But as things even out along the years it becomes equal... Aroun `43 and `44 we`re (the Russians) kickin` butt.

Except when we meet the me262 and once again it`s chase the jets forever and never catch up.

But you`re probably talking online between Humans.

faustnik
06-20-2005, 01:49 PM
Great post IceFire! I agree with everything you posted my only question is this:


The Spitfire is less of the "uber" machine that it was...its now quite good for a 1943 machine but not as significant of a danger in 1944 (as its boosted for 1943 only).

The Spit IX we have in PF is boosted at appropriate '44 levels. The +25 (150 octane fuel) came in mid-44 in England and later on the continent.

As to the Fw190, well, I'm not flying it anymore, the DM is broken as far as I can tell. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Jumoschwanz
06-20-2005, 02:18 PM
I historically have always been a luftwaffe pilot in sims, but if I jump on a server and the sides are badly imbalanced, I do not hesitate to fly allied at all.

On a recent sortie on a full-difficulty server, I jumped into the late P-47. I took it up to just under 7000 meters so I would not leave a vapor trail and headed up and down the front line. I spotted a dot at my alt a bit behind me that looked like it was tracking me, so I turned into it with the nose a bit down and the throttle firewalled to get a bit of speed. I passed the dot head-on, it was a FW190. He got onto my tail. I do not have a lot of dogfighting experience with the P-47, so I thought I would just try and outrun him.
I found I could stay ahead of him with no problem. I flew flat with a slight curve in a big circle and watched him back there quite a ways wasting his ammo on a shot that must have been over half a kilometer. Next I just went into a fast climb right up to about 8500 meters and the FW could not stay with me at all. He got further behind and lower than me and I was able to fall back on him and make a nice deflection shot. I saw bits of aluminum fly off. He dived down and away and I let him go deciding to keep my alt.

A bit later I saw a P-38 being chased by a 109 around 5500 meters alt, I dove to behind and below the 109 picking up great speed. I closed the gap after a fashion and let the eight fifties roar as I went by and over the 109. I looked back and he had split Sed down trailing black smoke. I did not chase him. The P-38 he was after went down after him so I left it alone. I was surprised a few minutes later to get the "enemy aircraft destroyed" come up on the HUD. Apparently he went straight down to his base and made a landing.
That was it. I thought it was a pretty successful mission. The P-47 did exactly what I thought it should do. I had alt and used it's speed and firepower to stay safe and make zooming attacks.
So once again we see, as has been the case with every patch of this sim, it is the pilot that uses his plane and tactics right that is successful.

The tactics I used with the P-47 would have worked just as well with any similar plane, axis or allied. The Ta-152 for instance is kind of the axis equivalant of the P-47 at high alt and I would and have used it in the same way.

Another server I was on after patch 4.01 had a bunch of guys low in 109s chewing everyone up with turn and burn tactics. I simply chose a plane on the list that I knew would handle them, a late model Lagg3, and I got on thier tail and shot them to pieces. They in turn started flying a6m5 zeros, so I simply went back to a fast allied plane that I could zoom through them with and hit and run the zeros to pieces.
Anyone being dominated just isn't doing things right and is missing one simple element: BRAINS.

S!
Jumoschwanz

LeadSpitter_
06-20-2005, 02:57 PM
theres so much overmodeled with them is very silly, you know me i fly both sides.

Blue is ridiculous overmodled in accelarations, e bleed, blackouts, climb dms so much to friggen list, its so ridiculously simple to do so well in, i have gotten many 6-14 kills in a single sortie flying the k4 g6 190d, most i got in the antons is 5-7 on alot of sorties.

its definatly the rudders and lack off stall advantage you can basically press rudder full deflection esily all speeds and not go flopping into a stall and the trim is whats making these ridiculous bat turns even using 100 fuel the 109s and 190s are like the 3.04 spitfire 250kmph faster so they can turn fight bnz and always run take many hits and destroy with 1 hit and explode any red plane that looks like its standing still in a 1 second tap of the trigger.

i mean look at wc for example 190s and 109s winning the turn fights very spits not blacking out as easy even tighter turn and higherspeed.

they are winning the low turnfight as well as mid and high alt with ease its like shooting airballons its that simple its like the red planes are virtually standing still.

even blue vs russian the 109 is winning the low alt turn fight same with 190s these high speed turn on a dime like a yoyo move we can do with this trim.

this patch has got to be the most overmodeled and undermodeled patch ever made in existance, i mean other patchs had 1-2 planes way above reality for each side. it still does p-38l is pretty out there but so is every 109 190 ta152

the russian ac are not overmodeled much at all and still seems to take alot of shvak hits to down a 190 or 109. I dunno every catagorie this game is completely of. Oleg knows it for sure.


locust your one of the better red pilots and i see you getting wasted badly same with fish he flies blue for an hour or half hour racks up 2500-3000 points then goes red and is eliminated in a couple minutes same with everyone.

its like in the dora and k4 you can be at 1000m and see a dot at 4000-5000m climb up to it likes its still. The only other ac like them is the p38 late but at least it stalls but it can turn so tight and not loose energy.

This game is such trash online now its ridiculous. Even the big trash talkers saying red planes are ufos they are doing great on blue and come red and are eliminated in minutes.

its not teamwork or numbers but fms. me and dacripler took out 5 spits 2 p51s with ease flying 2 k4s with 100 fuel not on comms and my engine was hit from ship flak the fight lasted maybe 6 minutes all on the deck turn fightings we both got hit a bunch of times. and all of them are very good players on red who been here along time.

blues are living it up bigtime.

they wont even admit it either, i mean we had ridiculously modeled fms every patch for many ac

1.0 mig hurricane i153 k4
1.1 lagg3 p-39 LA5 7 yak 109g2
2.0 zero ki84 p51 109 la yak 109g2
3.0 spitfire 190A mustang corsair ki84 p63 batturners
3.04 spitfire 190A 109k4 ta152 p40 p39

4.0 seems like for the blues they have the fms of the spit of 3.04 and corsair and ki84s fm of 3.0 out of the box turn like a bat out of hell any speed use rull rudder with no stall any speed total ufo garbage with the easiest to aim and kill guns ever in 1 sec burst.

Only thing we can do is just fly blue till a more realistic patch is out.

russian vs german is alot closer but still a major favor for blue seeings 190s 109s winning the turn fight on the deck. I really dont know how this garbage made it into a final patch. it amazes me.

There is absolutely no tactic you can use even with alt and speed advantage bnz an ac they just bat turn and catch you in seconds if you try to extend.

even with alot of alt it does not matter a much much lower alt blue plane can climb right to you and pass you as if your standing still.

Cyrano
06-20-2005, 03:24 PM
As I briefly stated a few days ago on a dying thread, after playing both sides now on 4.00 + 4.01 for over a week the German planes have IMHO benefitted from this patch the most. Not because of the new FM which you can easily adjust to in a couple of hours but because of the difference in lethality. If you get a chance to fly for both sides not just a flight or two but for hours on end then I think you come to the honest conclusion that Late German planes are now superior.
On Warclouds when sides are relatively "even" in skill and numbers the German planes do very well.
On Greater Green which has a bigger map rotation and more plane sets, very few players when given the choice even pick US planes at all.
Now I don't think that makes German planes UFO's but It does make them "easier" to do well in then in the past few patches.

Good Hunting!

faustnik
06-20-2005, 03:48 PM
russian vs german is alot closer but still a major favor for blue seeings 190s 109s winning the turn fight on the deck. I really dont know how this garbage made it into a final patch. it amazes me.

Please post tracks of this magical turn fighting Fw190A Leadspitter. I tested your last set of "overmodeled Fw190A" claims and they were completely untrue.

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-20-2005, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
theres so much overmodeled with them is very silly, you know me i fly both sides.

Blue is ridiculous overmodled in accelarations, e bleed, blackouts, climb dms so much to friggen list, its so ridiculously simple to do so well in, i have gotten many 6-14 kills in a single sortie flying the k4 g6 190d, most i got in the antons is 5-7 on alot of sorties.

its definatly the rudders and lack off stall advantage you can basically press rudder full deflection esily all speeds and not go flopping into a stall and the trim is whats making these ridiculous bat turns even using 100 fuel the 109s and 190s are like the 3.04 spitfire 250kmph faster so they can turn fight bnz and always run take many hits and destroy with 1 hit and explode any red plane that looks like its standing still in a 1 second tap of the trigger.

i mean look at wc for example 190s and 109s winning the turn fights very spits not blacking out as easy even tighter turn and higherspeed.

they are winning the low turnfight as well as mid and high alt with ease its like shooting airballons its that simple its like the red planes are virtually standing still.

even blue vs russian the 109 is winning the low alt turn fight same with 190s these high speed turn on a dime like a yoyo move we can do with this trim.

this patch has got to be the most overmodeled and undermodeled patch ever made in existance, i mean other patchs had 1-2 planes way above reality for each side. it still does p-38l is pretty out there but so is every 109 190 ta152

the russian ac are not overmodeled much at all and still seems to take alot of shvak hits to down a 190 or 109. I dunno every catagorie this game is completely of. Oleg knows it for sure.


locust your one of the better red pilots and i see you getting wasted badly same with fish he flies blue for an hour or half hour racks up 2500-3000 points then goes red and is eliminated in a couple minutes same with everyone.

its like in the dora and k4 you can be at 1000m and see a dot at 4000-5000m climb up to it likes its still. The only other ac like them is the p38 late but at least it stalls but it can turn so tight and not loose energy.

This game is such trash online now its ridiculous. Even the big trash talkers saying red planes are ufos they are doing great on blue and come red and are eliminated in minutes.

its not teamwork or numbers but fms. me and dacripler took out 5 spits 2 p51s with ease flying 2 k4s with 100 fuel not on comms and my engine was hit from ship flak the fight lasted maybe 6 minutes all on the deck turn fightings we both got hit a bunch of times. and all of them are very good players on red who been here along time.

blues are living it up bigtime.

they wont even admit it either, i mean we had ridiculously modeled fms every patch for many ac

1.0 mig hurricane i153 k4
1.1 lagg3 p-39 LA5 7 yak 109g2
2.0 zero ki84 p51 109 la yak 109g2
3.0 spitfire 190A mustang corsair ki84 p63 batturners
3.04 spitfire 190A 109k4 ta152 p40 p39

4.0 seems like for the blues they have the fms of the spit of 3.04 and corsair and ki84s fm of 3.0 out of the box turn like a bat out of hell any speed use rull rudder with no stall any speed total ufo garbage with the easiest to aim and kill guns ever in 1 sec burst.

Only thing we can do is just fly blue till a more realistic patch is out.

russian vs german is alot closer but still a major favor for blue seeings 190s 109s winning the turn fight on the deck. I really dont know how this garbage made it into a final patch. it amazes me.

There is absolutely no tactic you can use even with alt and speed advantage bnz an ac they just bat turn and catch you in seconds if you try to extend.

even with alot of alt it does not matter a much much lower alt blue plane can climb right to you and pass you as if your standing still.

One of the main reasons I fly PTO. ZvW server is the best challenge for both sides IMO and I love every minute of it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gogling
06-20-2005, 04:07 PM
I think it's a pretty level playing field now.

As for Russian planes being at a disadvantage, so they should be. Every Russian plane pre-43 was Cr/\P!

stathem
06-20-2005, 05:25 PM
Truth or lies..

It's all the same, whatever you do don't rock the boat. You gotta play the game, play the game, play the game yeah play the game....

Is it a crime to want something else?, is it a crime to believe in something different?

(New Model army - Smalltown England)

Sorry, that should be in the quotes thread should't it? erm...

ElAurens
06-20-2005, 05:55 PM
I'm with HaVoK on this one.

The PTO is the most fun/challenge I've had since I started back in 2001. I usually fly for the Emperor so I have to deal with the very fast US AC, and HaVoK's excellent, well disciplined BnZ tactics. Sometimes I burn, sometimes not. But I think that overall the PTO planeset has the most correct attributes for each side.

Tachyon1000
06-20-2005, 07:14 PM
Huddha Buddha, I must be the worst pilot ever as I have yet to get a single kill with these new uber LW planes. Perhaps my problem is that I have been using them as they are intended, as BnZers and not as turn fighters.

I have to say quite simply that as an exclusive flyer of 109s since I started flying I was very challenged in the scoring area. One day I decided, heck, let's see what it is like from the other side. First time I entered a late model spit, three kills, unprecedented for me, unprecedented. Of course, I wasn't turn-fighting with it. I was using it to BnZ. Anyway, that experience made me think that I had been royally screwed as an LW player. Now perhaps the shoe is on the other foot.

Be that as it may, I have a very, very hard time believing any of these "bugs" or "porked FMs and DMs" are anything but intentional. If the programmers made changes, you can be sure that these changes were tested for gameplay effects. Therefore, we must ask ourselves if this is the programmers' intentions that we are seeing. I would think it must be so. Further, we must ask if it was the intention of the programmers to screw allied planes/players. Clearly, no as this would hardly make sense. Alienating players, buyers of software, etc. Hardly a good business model.

Given that the changes in this patch are likely neither to be errors as I believe the changes were tested nor are they examples of malicious intent on the part of the programmers, then I hardly understand what all the fomenting is about over these patch issues for which we have no frame of reference to actual reality. Please post tests of how the FM or DM vary from official accounts of these planes or please stop all the pointless, pointless bickering and just play the game.

VW-IceFire
06-20-2005, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
Great post IceFire! I agree with everything you posted my only question is this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Spitfire is less of the "uber" machine that it was...its now quite good for a 1943 machine but not as significant of a danger in 1944 (as its boosted for 1943 only).

The Spit IX we have in PF is boosted at appropriate '44 levels. The +25 (150 octane fuel) came in mid-44 in England and later on the continent.

As to the Fw190, well, I'm not flying it anymore, the DM is broken as far as I can tell. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes my bad. I was being a bit too vague on the Spitfire boosting thing. Its still a nice little fighter and I like it the more everyone else is starting to dislike it. Its a lovely figther and its every inch my kind of plane now. I still need to start flying it a bit more.

As it was with the FW190, I tried to never ever get hit. Now its a matter of...if I do...it probably doesn't matter too much. Which is not quite right either. Somewhere in the middle is surely where it should be.

VW-IceFire
06-20-2005, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Gogling:
I think it's a pretty level playing field now.

As for Russian planes being at a disadvantage, so they should be. Every Russian plane pre-43 was Cr/\P!
Thats essentially true as well. As I pointed out...the Russians were loosing 2:1 or more through most of the war. But they had tons of pilots and tons of planes to draw on...so it wasn't much of a problem. Once 1943 rolls around...the situation starts to change. The La-5FN is a much more appreciated fighter now and the Yak-9U is another as they bring the VVS into a near parity situation with the Luftwaffe on all levels.

AerialTarget
06-20-2005, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
this patch has got to be the most overmodeled and undermodeled patch ever made in existance, i mean other patchs had 1-2 planes way above reality for each side. it still does p-38l is pretty out there but so is every 109 190 ta152

The P-38 Lightning is now nearly up to its real life specifications. It still needs a few things corrected to make it as good in the game as it really was.

Fehler
06-21-2005, 04:42 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
On the flipside, the FW190 and Bf109 have been beefed up on the DM side and they are more resistant to HMGs than before. The FW190 can soak up HMGs alot...and most FW190 pilots as well as most Allied pilots agree that its too much. Its a 180 degree reversal from the extremely poor fireprone DM that we had before...neither are good.

Respectfully, I disagree. The FW190 has always been able to soak up HMG fire from a direct six. The problem really lies with the fact that all the other *Bad* damage bugs that has plagued the 190 in recent versions out shadowed the *Concrete against HMG tail* model that has always been present.

Now, I personally have a problem to resolve. Should I continue to fly the 190 when I know that there is a DM bug? I think that I have earned the right to fly it since I flew it through all the problems in the past. From my perspective, at least, I have been cheated with a crappy, buggy DM for so long, a little bit of breathing time isnt so bad... hehe!

But honestly, most dedicated 190 jocks just want a realistic DM. Yet, I find it amazing all the *New* 190 pilots lately. Just like all the extra P-63 pilots that flew the plane when it's DM was goofy. I hope the 190 DM is sorted out quickly, because when I fly against 50 cal equipped planes, I almost feel a little dirty if you know what I mean.

But those Hispanos and that 37mm Potatoe launcher on the P-63 still hurts plenty!!!

I found it very enjoyable last night flying the FW 190 A-8 on WC. It was outclassed by nearly all the allied planes, but it was still fun to fly because I knew I could finally kill something with the 151/20's in a B&Z pass. And the FW-190 A-6 is a pure joy to fly! But the Dora is just plain *Evil*!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I dont see much of a mismatch in the game right now. Planes all have different characteristics which if flown properly, can make for good historical matchups. Bottom line is, get the jump on someone and they are in trouble, get jumped, and you better be hoping that you have a buddy around somewhere!

EnGaurde
06-21-2005, 07:28 AM
well, whatever the patch, someone will not be happy and spawn a complaint thread about how much is too much.

my attitude is.... what if things arent equal? what if no amount of tweaking will ever balance anything just right because everyone has a different idea of "just right" (except of course the dev teams http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif ), and quite bluntly no amount of armchair pilots have any first hand experience of what these aircraft, guns or shells did anyway.

And that includes all you i flew a Cessna therefore I Know Flight Aerial experts. A civilian 4 seater is not a 60 yr old design principle based, performance oriented unforgiving quirky warfighter, and you did not fly amongst its minefield of flight characteristics with the amount of training you had at 20 yrs of age in a situation where you could and often did, die. Tanslation: nobody knows.

What if this balance is actually the closest to what things should actually be like to be an accurate all things considered sim?

i still firmly believe that, if this sim was secretly advised by nothing but a legion of surviving VVS, Luftwaffe, USAAF, IJN, IJA, RAF, RAAF, RCAF, SAF etc etc etc etc etc pilots, you'd have all manner of people arguing their self righteous arrses off in this forum against the pilots that flew them about "... how you just dont have a fackin clue you < insert hated country here > fanboi !!!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Youd have those that were there standing up from the pc, shaking aged heads with incredulous looks on their faces at how so many people could consider themselves authorities on planes they never flew, in skies theyve never seen, against enemies they never faced, shooting shells theyve never witnessed hit from guns theyve never fired.

Im not trying to flame anyone, i just see this self supporting hysteria about capabilities everyone seems to think they alone have the real deal on.

Balance? do you think the luftwaffe thought it balanced watching 1000 plane raids? If you want balanced, there should be one 109 against 40 p51s and 80 p40s. Hehe.

Instead, people ignore these actual historical realities because it just wouldnt be fun. Its so selective as to be laughable.

this thread is just one persons interpretation against anothers, actually everyone is probably a certain percentage right.

and the rest of those percentages?

totally, hopelessly, blessedly, innocently, ignorantly wrong.

Chuck_Older
06-21-2005, 08:03 AM
4.01 has been out for less than a week, correct?

All the stats in the world, and all the personal observations of online play cannot give a clear picture of what planes have an advantage, for the simple reason that a new FM is available, and even though the leaked version was out for a bit, that still doesn't give the vast majority of online players time sufficient to become expert or even very knowledgeable about how to most effectively fly the planes with the new FM

Time must pass first. Give it a month, that's not a lot of time, and then re-evaluate what planes dominate, and I'm sure you'll have a different opinion of what's going on

RAF74_Poker
06-21-2005, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by Fehler:
I find it amazing all the *New* 190 pilots lately. Just like all the extra P-63 pilots that flew the plane when it's DM was goofy. I hope the 190 DM is sorted out quickly, because when I fly against 50 cal equipped planes, I almost feel a little dirty if you know what I mean.


So this means FW-190 has taken on the mantle of "Noob" plane from the Spit ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Fehler
06-21-2005, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by RAF74_Poker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fehler:
I find it amazing all the *New* 190 pilots lately. Just like all the extra P-63 pilots that flew the plane when it's DM was goofy. I hope the 190 DM is sorted out quickly, because when I fly against 50 cal equipped planes, I almost feel a little dirty if you know what I mean.


So this means FW-190 has taken on the mantle of "Noob" plane from the Spit ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I never said that, you did... but I didnt... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TacticalYak3
06-21-2005, 11:11 AM
Some thoughtful posts and interesting observations.

I do find it interesting how most folks' flying styles have changed since the Eastern theatre. Russian virtual pilots remained under 3000 metres (most even 2000 metres or less). This to a significant degree, kept Axis pilots down low also - say @4,000 metres or lower. And, yes, I know there were exceptions. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Since the Aces Expansion, folks have been exploring a much higher altitude for fighting. While certain Russian planes can perform well in higher altitudes, it seems to me that folks think the Russian planes have become weaker. Maybe so, but as pointed out when comparing planes we must consider their historical context IMO - what planes were involved, and what altitude/assignments were they involved with.

I think it is unwise to mix planes from different theatres unless a great deal of care has been taken. That I-16 pilot, for the most part, would be loving a low altitude turn-n-burn fight with that early model 109, then that high altitude fight over Normandy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Personally, I don't know what all this fuss is about 4.01. Yes, it is different and a new challenge. Happy with it despite some issues that hopefully will be addressed.

I still find my MS Sidewinder functions well, in fact I haven't bothered to change any of my settings. Been trimming and using various CEM functions for a while now, the only new thing is locking the tail wheel.

Anyway, good discussion about the planes, I especially concur on the need for proper plane sets and flying behaviour when making such comparisons.

TactS!

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-21-2005, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Fehler:
I dont see much of a mismatch in the game right now. Planes all have different characteristics which if flown properly, can make for good historical matchups. Bottom line is, get the jump on someone and they are in trouble, get jumped, and you better be hoping that you have a buddy around somewhere!


Agreed. There will always be debate on FM's and DM's some with validity and some without, but you can almost always bank on the guy with the altitude/speed advantage. It's been proven over and over again.


TB

Adlerangriff
06-21-2005, 02:02 PM
I think the main thing in measuring FM's is to put the plane in it's natural enviornment.

FW's and P-47's dogfighting at tree top level is a poor way of measuring what the planes really did.

Throw 24 Allied Bombers in the mix and have the 8 FW's attack the bomber formation with the P-47's escorting from the high six.

Air Start the US forces at 6500 mtrs and have the Germans coming up off the deck from 2000 meters.

I think the proper mission and surrounding will give the planes the feel you seek.

Do the same thing with 109E/7B's escorting He-111's in the airstart and have the Spits and Hurricanes coming up to engage.

The proper ratio in the air is important in historical vs game comparisons.

200 opperational FW's on the Eastern Front in 1943 means 1 for every 14 miles of front line or in terms of our game: Keep a 2-8 ratio of FW's to 109's and a 3-7 ratio of LA-5's to Yaks and you will like what you see out there.

Always have bombers being escorted one way or the other. After all, that was the only reason they had fighters at all. Bomber support.


Dont play a low level dogfight with unrealistic ratios and then come back to the forum and wonder where all the realism went in the last patch.

Kasdeya
06-21-2005, 03:02 PM
I dont know just yet, I havent flown enough. I have found though, that I am getting a one or two more kills per coop in both allied and Axis planes. Hell, I flew a mission with D. Humphrey in my Jug and I got 5 to 6 kills, ok 5 and a half. but the other guy died before he hit the ground so I got the kill. With the G2 i get prolly 2 more kills per flight.

I fly coops, not DF. My experience with this is that while it has changed, it hasnt hurt the way I fly and fight.

Cheers

Rebel_Yell_21
06-21-2005, 03:27 PM
Awesome, a Fehler sighting. Always loved your post patch assessments in "the old days".

And you definitely deserve a 190 that errs on the other side if it isn't going to be dead on after sticking with it through the early years.

AFJ_Locust
06-21-2005, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
theres so much overmodeled with them is very silly, you know me i fly both sides.

Blue is ridiculous overmodled in accelarations, e bleed, blackouts, climb dms so much to friggen list, its so ridiculously simple to do so well in, i have gotten many 6-14 kills in a single sortie flying the k4 g6 190d, most i got in the antons is 5-7 on alot of sorties.

its definatly the rudders and lack off stall advantage you can basically press rudder full deflection esily all speeds and not go flopping into a stall and the trim is whats making these ridiculous bat turns even using 100 fuel the 109s and 190s are like the 3.04 spitfire 250kmph faster so they can turn fight bnz and always run take many hits and destroy with 1 hit and explode any red plane that looks like its standing still in a 1 second tap of the trigger.

i mean look at wc for example 190s and 109s winning the turn fights very spits not blacking out as easy even tighter turn and higherspeed.

they are winning the low turnfight as well as mid and high alt with ease its like shooting airballons its that simple its like the red planes are virtually standing still.

even blue vs russian the 109 is winning the low alt turn fight same with 190s these high speed turn on a dime like a yoyo move we can do with this trim.

this patch has got to be the most overmodeled and undermodeled patch ever made in existance, i mean other patchs had 1-2 planes way above reality for each side. it still does p-38l is pretty out there but so is every 109 190 ta152

the russian ac are not overmodeled much at all and still seems to take alot of shvak hits to down a 190 or 109. I dunno every catagorie this game is completely of. Oleg knows it for sure.


locust your one of the better red pilots and i see you getting wasted badly same with fish he flies blue for an hour or half hour racks up 2500-3000 points then goes red and is eliminated in a couple minutes same with everyone.

its like in the dora and k4 you can be at 1000m and see a dot at 4000-5000m climb up to it likes its still. The only other ac like them is the p38 late but at least it stalls but it can turn so tight and not loose energy.

This game is such trash online now its ridiculous. Even the big trash talkers saying red planes are ufos they are doing great on blue and come red and are eliminated in minutes.

its not teamwork or numbers but fms. me and dacripler took out 5 spits 2 p51s with ease flying 2 k4s with 100 fuel not on comms and my engine was hit from ship flak the fight lasted maybe 6 minutes all on the deck turn fightings we both got hit a bunch of times. and all of them are very good players on red who been here along time.

blues are living it up bigtime.

they wont even admit it either, i mean we had ridiculously modeled fms every patch for many ac

1.0 mig hurricane i153 k4
1.1 lagg3 p-39 LA5 7 yak 109g2
2.0 zero ki84 p51 109 la yak 109g2
3.0 spitfire 190A mustang corsair ki84 p63 batturners
3.04 spitfire 190A 109k4 ta152 p40 p39

4.0 seems like for the blues they have the fms of the spit of 3.04 and corsair and ki84s fm of 3.0 out of the box turn like a bat out of hell any speed use rull rudder with no stall any speed total ufo garbage with the easiest to aim and kill guns ever in 1 sec burst.

Only thing we can do is just fly blue till a more realistic patch is out.

russian vs german is alot closer but still a major favor for blue seeings 190s 109s winning the turn fight on the deck. I really dont know how this garbage made it into a final patch. it amazes me.

There is absolutely no tactic you can use even with alt and speed advantage bnz an ac they just bat turn and catch you in seconds if you try to extend.

even with alot of alt it does not matter a much much lower alt blue plane can climb right to you and pass you as if your standing still.


I COULDNT HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF BRAVO

actionhank1786
06-21-2005, 03:33 PM
dare!

crazyivan1970
06-21-2005, 03:33 PM
Locust, what happened to you... not the same Locust i use to know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

AFJ_Locust
06-21-2005, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Cyrano:
As I briefly stated a few days ago on a dying thread, after playing both sides now on 4.00 + 4.01 for over a week the German planes have IMHO benefitted from this patch the most. Not because of the new FM which you can easily adjust to in a couple of hours but because of the difference in lethality. If you get a chance to fly for both sides not just a flight or two but for hours on end then I think you come to the honest conclusion that Late German planes are now superior.
On Warclouds when sides are relatively "even" in skill and numbers the German planes do very well.
On Greater Green which has a bigger map rotation and more plane sets, very few players when given the choice even pick US planes at all.
Now I don't think that makes German planes UFO's but It does make them "easier" to do well in then in the past few patches.

Good Hunting!

Yes I fly for 15 hours straight testing thinking learning going from red to blue

Fealing the tottal dispair of flying for allied

Im coming blue

faustnik
06-21-2005, 04:00 PM
Fealing the total dispair of flying for allied

Really, total despair??? What red planes were you flying? The Mustang III did well for me on Warclouds. A lot of guys are happy with the P-38L.

ICDP
06-21-2005, 04:48 PM
Dude... i edited it ...but you stubborn fellow are trying to get banned. I partially agree with you...but my position is not allowing me to post in such manner...

Chill out a bit, put that mouse down and stay away from the keyboard

faustnik
06-21-2005, 04:58 PM
Grrrrrr http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

But, how do you really feel ICDP?

ICDP
06-21-2005, 05:09 PM
I am just sick and tired of seeing every second or third thread on these forums *****ing about this sim. It is no coincidence that quite a number of them are from the "usual suspects".

I have some issues with the current FM but overall the new patch is outstanding IMHO. Any major issues will be looked at by Oleg and the devs, they always deliver in the end.

Instead of whining about the game why don't these people go and lookt at what makes them happy about it. Be more of an optimist and look at what we have and not what YOU want.

I really don't envy Ivan having to moderate some of these whiny self opinionated threads.

VW-IceFire
06-21-2005, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyrano:
As I briefly stated a few days ago on a dying thread, after playing both sides now on 4.00 + 4.01 for over a week the German planes have IMHO benefitted from this patch the most. Not because of the new FM which you can easily adjust to in a couple of hours but because of the difference in lethality. If you get a chance to fly for both sides not just a flight or two but for hours on end then I think you come to the honest conclusion that Late German planes are now superior.
On Warclouds when sides are relatively "even" in skill and numbers the German planes do very well.
On Greater Green which has a bigger map rotation and more plane sets, very few players when given the choice even pick US planes at all.
Now I don't think that makes German planes UFO's but It does make them "easier" to do well in then in the past few patches.

Good Hunting!

Yes I fly for 15 hours straight testing thinking learning going from red to blue

Fealing the tottal dispair of flying for allied

Im coming blue </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm getting the impression that no matter which side you fly for...you aren't going to like it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Chuck_Older
06-21-2005, 06:11 PM
Why is "this plane is bad" or "this side is bad" always revolving around online play?

Why do I never see a "this plane is good/bad and here's my comparison to actual flight data" only once in a blue moon?

It's always "this plane on red or blue"....which is telling me it's 100% against humans on the internet...Humans can be good or bad at it, they can be great at picking up new things, or take months to learn new things

Making a comparison betwen "red and blue" is really telling to me- the interest is online parity compared to commonly encountered enemy aircraft online. Planeset choice has already been mentioned...

fordfan25
06-21-2005, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
I need honest people that fly bolth Allied & German ac to voice there Opinions here.

Not a bunch who love allied or Axis ac only, with biased opinions... (Ya I know Im dreaming but I thought Id try)

In my opinion German ac now totaly dominate the sim... I can fly for hours in a P51D20 and get only a few kills now but if i hop in a Dora,G6AS,G2,G10 Ill have 4 to 6 kills per flight they turn Harder then ever now with the new bat trim, there just as fast as ever, and the 1 shot kills with 108 or 151 because of new flight model...

what can be flown to counter these new uber UFO's that are alot worse then the spit ever was. NOTHING except maybe La7 LOL

anyone else feal the game is now slanted to blue or am I just paranoid ?

ok all bias aside. i have not flown any if the 109's sence the patch so i could not say on them. i do how ever think the DM on the FW is WAY WAY over done. the corsair,wild and hellcat is way under moddled in terms of the DM. flight moddle id say the corsair seems to be about right but from every thing iv seen and read the hellcat just is to slopy. it stalls sooner IMO than it should ect. also the massive yawing back in forth seems a little ecessive to me. maby on a zero or something lite but not big heavey birds like the hellcat or FW. also i still cant believe the dive speeds and rates are any wear near right. spits are diveing with stangs and sairs untill thay reach critical speeds. the zero seems about right from what i can tell. ect.

TacticalYak3
06-21-2005, 07:15 PM
And to think I just read the EDITED post. What did he originally say Ivan? (please don't tell me, my ears - well eyes - are still ringing!) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Come on mate, let us really hear what you think. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

With regards to those who try to pull up hard when a bandit is on your six, you do know that all one does is give the enemy a great gun solution? It took me a long time to unlearn this poor defensive tactic in this game.

It's funny how much enery people expend complaining about a game they apparently play all the time. Doesn't make much sense, eh?

Anyway, off to have some FUN flying.

Regards,
TactS!

9th_Spitin
06-22-2005, 09:42 AM
Well, here are the stats from WC's as of today, they just reset them the other day. Notice the BLUE domination?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/kbbrech/stats.jpg

Chuck_Older
06-22-2005, 09:51 AM
Does that stat mean that Blue is superior, or that players who are better at the sim were playing blue, and beat up on a bunch of guys who aren't so good, but flew red?

It's like a poll question. I can prove anything with a poll- as long as I ask the right people the right question. Take it with a grain of salt or five

faustnik
06-22-2005, 10:17 AM
Wait a minute! Are people trying to judge accuracy of the sim by looking for parity in online dogfight servers? That is just plain rediculous. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

9th_Spitin
06-22-2005, 10:18 AM
LMAO,

Yea, I guess all the blue pilots are more skilled than the red. Are you serious?

The 109's/190's are the one hit wonders, bang bang and your wing is gone, then you get behind one and unload most of your ammo and he fly's away. And yes the convergence is set and hitting the aircraft. The stats are not like a poll, they are the facts from the past few nights.

faustnik
06-22-2005, 10:51 AM
Yea, I guess all the blue pilots are more skilled than the red. Are you serious?

Are you seriously saying that stats from a dogfight should be even to measure realism in the sim???

How are the LW weapons unrealistic? Please post data or your just plain whining.

Maybe you are looking for a game with carefully crafted "even" sides instead of a WWII simulation?

9th_Spitin
06-22-2005, 10:57 AM
No, just showing how lop sided it is. If all the LW planes were that great we would all be doing the Goose Step and eating sourkrout. We have a few guys that will fly red and blue, on blue they have alot more kills then when they fly red. The 109's and 190's were great planes, but come on, lets get real.

SparrowThree
06-22-2005, 11:05 AM
mmmmm......sour kraut

faustnik
06-22-2005, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by 9th_Spitin:
No, just showing how lop sided it is. If all the LW planes were that great we would all be doing the Goose Step and eating sourkrout. We have a few guys that will fly red and blue, on blue they have alot more kills then when they fly red. The 109's and 190's were great planes, but come on, lets get real.

Why don't you "get real" and post some real information or data other than baseless whines. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Maybe the new FM is more of an adjustment for the red pilots? Maybe a lot of red pliots are trying new a/c that they aren't familiar with? Maybe the DF server has an anbalanced planeset. Maybe the dogfight server situation is completely unrealistic and completely unrelated to the historical situation? Maybe the known bug in the Fw190 DM is reducing the number of red kills?

9th_Spitin
06-22-2005, 11:23 AM
Dont go getting your Lederhosen all bunched up. It is so fun to whatch you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif Luffe Whiners defend your planes.

Its just a game, and I will still fly Allied.

S~

faustnik
06-22-2005, 11:32 AM
Spitin,

It's irritating to see you whiners like you crying on the forums. No information, no actual thought, just crying because "it's too hard now". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Oh, and before you label someone a "Luftwhiner" why don't you look at who is whining, you and a couple others. Many other "red" side pilots are very happy with the patch.


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

RedDeth
06-22-2005, 12:17 PM
i think it has to do with settings. in fullreal or WC settings i find it difficult to trim out the rudder and ailerons correctly with pit on in ALLIED planes.

german planes dont really need those trim inputs. all they need is elevator trim thus the allied planes handle worse and fly slower than they could for people having trim problems on pit on games.

in pit off i notice allied planes have an advantage over axis planes as they are easy to trim out with the circle and dot for rudder and ailerons. thus they climb better and hold E better and are faster than on piton.

and the mustang 3 and p38L late are great in pit off.

i fly axis and allied and pit on and pitoff . those are my observations. turn that pitoff or get a way to trim out the allied planes in piton and itll go much better for allies.

personally i think the FW190A9 wallows and is hard to aim for some reason. but the dora is much more stable. ill have to try the FW190A6

Chuck_Older
06-22-2005, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by 9th_Spitin:
LMAO,

Yea, I guess all the blue pilots are more skilled than the red. Are you serious?

The 109's/190's are the one hit wonders, bang bang and your wing is gone, then you get behind one and unload most of your ammo and he fly's away. And yes the convergence is set and hitting the aircraft. The stats are not like a poll, they are the facts from the past few nights.

I didn't say that blue pilots were better than red. If you can't follow what I post, ask for clarification before you get all upset by what you think I said

raaaid
06-22-2005, 02:14 PM
i think red still have all the advantage because of the uberness of the spits

TX-EcoDragon
06-22-2005, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by RedDeth:
i think it has to do with settings. in fullreal or WC settings i find it difficult to trim out the rudder and ailerons correctly with pit on in ALLIED planes.

german planes dont really need those trim inputs. all they need is elevator trim thus the allied planes handle worse and fly slower than they could for people having trim problems on pit on games.

in pit off i notice allied planes have an advantage over axis planes as they are easy to trim out with the circle and dot for rudder and ailerons. thus they climb better and hold E better and are faster than on piton.

and the mustang 3 and p38L late are great in pit off.

i fly axis and allied and pit on and pitoff . those are my observations. turn that pitoff or get a way to trim out the allied planes in piton and itll go much better for allies.

personally i think the FW190A9 wallows and is hard to aim for some reason. but the dora is much more stable. ill have to try the FW190A6

I don't understand what about having the cockpit on makes it hard to trim. . . the only thing you might look at on the panel in trimming is the inclinometer, which is often easier to view (sometimes on the gunsight) than in any other aircraft. You generally wont need many changes to trim in the roll axis, and rudder only when large changes to the flight profile are made. . .and of course you don't need to trim, you can fly around all out of whac just like 190 and 109 pilots have to, it just makes the allied€s job easier in that we actually HAVE trim to use if so inclined.

I haven't been flying 4.01 since I'm out of town, but in 4.0 I didn't see any disparity, and few changes from the basic paradigms of old. The P-47 still dominated all when up above 6K, the 51 still was superior in all handling aspects other than sheer roll rate relative to it's closest contenders the Ta and D9, and would eat the Antons alive in any situation given proximal pilot skills, it still retains better than average (and overdone) elevator authority. Down low the 47 and 51 shouldn't be Ace-makers down below 10-12thousand feet you are asking for trouble, the 109s in particular did handle quite well down there, same for the soviet stuff, most guys I see in P-51s and P-38s are down low, the guys out there that use their aircraft where it shines should still reap those same benefits, though they might not be able to be as careless with their ROE anymore since they have some reason to fear the 151/20. I see that as a good thing. 190 pilots could never be careless at any point in this sim series since the aircraft was always outclassed in nearly every regard other than all out firepower (other than that strange uber A9 period back in one patch of AEP), the P-47 pilots had it a bit better but were in nearly the same position unless over 7K, but there are other aircraft that people can, and often are careless with. I know back in 3.04 the simple fact was there were a few aircraft that would dominate at all altitudes and at any speed, those aircraft have been brought more into spec with the rest of the sim, and now have characteristics a bit like all the other aircraft and so they must abide by the same basic rules, now the D9 can actually down a P-51 or P47 instead of waiting for the fuel leak to give you kill credit, or hoping for a PK, and yeah you better believe that will change the overall feel of a server.

Things did change, and for some of us that only fly one aircraft it's a crapshoot as to what we will think about that change, but I for one saw a nice balanced playing field more than I've seen in this sim series before in 4.00. But then I don't have any trouble with trim or oscillations or any such things that I see some exclusively red pilots mentioning. I don't fly the P-51 online much (even though it's my favorite aircraft and one that fly in the non-virtual world) but the P-39, P-47, P-40 get about half my stick time and I can't complain about those when flown appropriately for each type.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2005, 04:34 PM
theres an old saying, it goes a little like this........."The machine is as good as the operator" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

VW-IceFire
06-22-2005, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by RedDeth:
i think it has to do with settings. in fullreal or WC settings i find it difficult to trim out the rudder and ailerons correctly with pit on in ALLIED planes.

german planes dont really need those trim inputs. all they need is elevator trim thus the allied planes handle worse and fly slower than they could for people having trim problems on pit on games.

in pit off i notice allied planes have an advantage over axis planes as they are easy to trim out with the circle and dot for rudder and ailerons. thus they climb better and hold E better and are faster than on piton.

and the mustang 3 and p38L late are great in pit off.

i fly axis and allied and pit on and pitoff . those are my observations. turn that pitoff or get a way to trim out the allied planes in piton and itll go much better for allies.

personally i think the FW190A9 wallows and is hard to aim for some reason. but the dora is much more stable. ill have to try the FW190A6
Wait wait....no...not at all. Please put me in an Allied plane long before anyone tosses me back in a Axis plane as the trimming thing is definately in the Allied favor. All American planes that I've found have nice elevator, rudder, and aileron trim. The aileron trim is what I call a fantastic luxury. On a FW190 you have one trim: elevator. The rest is manual...and its actually quite annoying now.

So how do you figure its "easier" on Axis. I say its harder on the Axis...and good riddance, I'll keep my aileron trim whenever I can get it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AFJ_Locust
06-22-2005, 09:40 PM
O screw it just leave them the way they are Ill just fly Blue & Dominate with my New & Improved Dora http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Ya Go Oleg & Team you guys rokz

u gabe us da uber we shaken yer hand http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

AFJ_Locust
06-22-2005, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_Prop:
theres an old saying, it goes a little like this........."The machine is as good as the operator" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif


lmao theres an old saying I have

Ill whop the **** out of you in any ac you choose.
Ill even host it for you.

we aint makein this stuff up man

AFJ_Locust
06-22-2005, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yea, I guess all the blue pilots are more skilled than the red. Are you serious?

Are you seriously saying that stats from a dogfight should be even to measure realism in the sim???

How are the LW weapons unrealistic? Please post data or your just plain whining.

Maybe you are looking for a game with carefully crafted "even" sides instead of a WWII simulation? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


o freekin come on faust the new blue ac are obviously way better than 304 & if your not man enough too admit that then your just fooling yourself m8 weather its realistic or not NONE of us knows did you fly a FW or a P51 ? No ?
Neither have I, all I know is that Red team is F88888***

one day oleg sayes this is realistic !!!

next year he sayes same chit with tottaly differant FM & DM

next year he sayes same chit with tottaly differant FM & DM

next year he sayes same chit with tottaly differant FM & DM

next year he sayes same chit with tottaly differant FM & DM

next year he sayes same chit with tottaly differant FM & DM

and inbetween each year/patch/2-weeks certain ac are killing machiens wakeup & smell the coffie & quit playing the Reality CARD this aint reality!

AFJ_Locust
06-22-2005, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 9th_Spitin:
No, just showing how lop sided it is. If all the LW planes were that great we would all be doing the Goose Step and eating sourkrout. We have a few guys that will fly red and blue, on blue they have alot more kills then when they fly red. The 109's and 190's were great planes, but come on, lets get real.

Why don't you "get real" and post some real information or data other than baseless whines. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Maybe the new FM is more of an adjustment for the red pilots? Maybe a lot of red pliots are trying new a/c that they aren't familiar with? Maybe the DF server has an anbalanced planeset. Maybe the dogfight server situation is completely unrealistic and completely unrelated to the historical situation? Maybe the known bug in the Fw190 DM is reducing the number of red kills? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


DATA

DATA

DATA

DATA

DATA

DATA

why dont you post some freekin data showing that German ac should have all aspects of flight perfected as they do now !!!

Awsome Climbing ability

Awsome Guns

Awsome Turning

Awsome Elevator Authority (ie Bat Trim)

Awsome Seperation Acceleration

you need the reality check man!!!

your only defending them because you dont want to lose the power that German now has Show us the Proof show us reality!!!

Oleg is reality Oleg makes the game TEH GAME!!! Its Olegs Reality !!

German= SUPERUBER

Russian= Uberduber

American= GOOBER They tossed us a p38-late cookie Ya its fast, ya its got cannons Ya its easily one of the most unstable gunplatforms in the game now, the nose is waveing & yawing all over the place like were in a freekin Boat on the high seas..................

meanwhile FW can preform negative G manuvers that boggle the mind, combined with a roll in a dive then snap into a positive G turn that leaves anything in the dust period !!!!!

AFJ_Locust
06-22-2005, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Locust, what happened to you... not the same Locust i use to know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I flipped out & lost my mind

my one haven of peace & fun is being ruined & its pissing me off thats what happened

Sorry

VW-IceFire
06-22-2005, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Locust, what happened to you... not the same Locust i use to know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I flipped out & lost my mind

my one haven of peace & fun is being ruined & its pissing me off thats what happened

Sorry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its not ruined. Its quite the opposite...but you've decided its ruined for you so whatever. So far you haven't listened much...its a shame. Quite a few good perspectives here.

GR142_Astro
06-23-2005, 12:06 AM
Unfortunately, this sim is unrealistically tilted for the Luft players as of 4.01m. I think a healthy dose of competition from a rival flight sim maker is now completely in order.

It's a bummer that flight sims are so niche.

Badsight.
06-23-2005, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
I need honest people that fly bolth Allied & German ac to voice there Opinions here.

Not a bunch who love allied or Axis ac only, with biased opinions... (Ya I know Im dreaming but I thought Id try) i post here all the time , to counter the BS one-eye views almost exclusivly


Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
what can be flown to counter these new uber UFO's that are alot worse then the spit ever was. NOTHING except maybe La7 LOL even La-7 is not the plane it used to be

neither are the Spits , but to say the Bf109 can E-Fight like the Endless-E v3.04 Spitfire is just wrong

endless-E is gone , no more

Badsight.
06-23-2005, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by 9th_Spitin:
Dont go getting your Lederhosen all bunched up. It is so fun to whatch you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif Luffe Whiners defend your planes.

Its just a game, and I will still fly Allied.

S~ do you have any idea of how AP & HE ammo work in this sim ?

if you dont then by all means take it as fact that Cannon with MG shells absolutly should hit like they do in this sim when the MG shells connect

seems like people thought paint chipper MG151/20s were great !

(when getting hit by them)

Codex1971
06-23-2005, 03:01 AM
I'd have to say false dude.

I am a long time LW/190 flyer, but I have flown on both red and blue in 4.01. I seem to think that you red guys just need to adjust to the new FM. For the entire 3.XX patch series us LW flyers had to watch our selves very closely, we often had to fly close to the edge of stalling to even keep up with the Spit and P-51's. This, I think, has forced us to fly in a conservative manner (don€t yank on the stick too hard, watch your speed, conserve your energy etc etc), which is probably why I find the red planes great to fly in 4.01. I especially love the P-38 and P-47 (porked DM and all) I find it easy to down planes when flying red.

As far as history goes and in the context of the air war over Europe, yes the red side won, but I seem to think the major reason why was due to the fact that Germans were heavily out numbered on all fronts, not because the allied planes were superior. The problem is that the numbers are equal on the servers so it then boils down to pilot skill and getting back to my previous point, the LW flyer prior to 4.01 had it tough, we had to learn how to fly, not just takeoff and kill stuff.

In my opinion 4.01 has brought a level playing field, not withstanding the DM on both sides.

csThor
06-23-2005, 04:31 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
The only reaction this thread is going to get from me is sarcasm.

Contrary to popular belief and History Channel fairy tales the US airmen did not destroy Luftwaffe planes through concentrated brainwaves. They still had to shoot them down with common machine guns. Contrary to popular belief and History Channel fairy tales the Luftwaffe airmen did not suffer heart attacks and died from shock when seeing US aircraft coming at them. They could shoot back and they did.

WOLFMondo
06-23-2005, 05:01 AM
Gotta say all planes now wobble like a jelly when firing there funs. Most oscelate back and forth.


Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
In my opinion German ac now totaly dominate the sim... I can fly for hours in a P51D20 and get only a few kills now but if i hop in a Dora,G6AS,G2,G10 Ill have 4 to 6 kills per flight they turn Harder then ever now with the new bat trim, there just as fast as ever, and the 1 shot kills with 108 or 151 because of new flight model...

Dunno if I agree or not. I tried out the Mustang MkIII online yesterday and got 2 kills quicker than i've got in a D9 but when I did fly the D9 I found that i could literally spray a few rounds at an enemy plane and it would go down very easily but the FW190's have a massive downside now.

Get hit on a wing, even a little hit and try a scissors manouver. Its almost impossible to carry it off and not stall into a mess and there controls are so easy to take out which is stupic considering they used bars and not wires.

AerialTarget
06-23-2005, 05:43 AM
My Warclouds kill ratio doubled when I went blue today. It has always been that way; red for beauty, blue for results. You blue players just love, oh you love to claim that the problem lies with us the red players, but I prove this is false every time I sit in the cockpit of a Me-109 G-2! Aerial Target the Ridiculous out of his wretched P-38 Lightning becomes a fairly dangerous opponent, in spite of being completely unused to internal views.

If all of the aircraft in the game shared a blank graphical model and were given random numbers instead of historical designations, and if we were then payed ten cents for every kill we made and fined five cents for every death, no one would ever fly any of the models that were American before all distincions were removed. We would all be flying models that behave suspiciously like the current Me-109 G-2, G-6 with AS, G-10, K-4, and the FW-190 Dora.

Perhaps Axis aircraft really were that good, and other conditions (crappy pilots) were the reason they did not do well against Allied aircraft. That can be argued by those who wish to do so. But the fact of the matter is that they are far, far superior to American and British aircraft in the game. Those who say that the problem lies with the red players are wrong, and would do well to think up another argument. Might I suggest the one I referred to earlier, about crappy Luftwaffe pilots?

No, I don't have data. I really don't know much about how Luftwaffe airplanes should behave; that's not my area of expertise. Unlike the P-38 haters who barge into the P-38 thread armed with very scanty, very false information and make strong statements that are ridiculous to anyone who knows the least bit about P-38 Lightnings, I do not make a habit of making strong statements about things I don't have a clue about. I'm not here to prove anything; I'm making a point.

Aaron_GT
06-23-2005, 06:00 AM
No, just showing how lop sided it is.

It's not about balance, though, but about accuracy.

The problem with DF servers is that planes are not always flown in the way they were historically, and this leads to kill:death ratios that don't match historical figures.

If the DF servers required that battles all be over 20,000 feet and the LW players were required to target mass formations of B17s whilst being harried by P51s and P47Ds the figures might look very different.

AerialTarget
06-23-2005, 06:03 AM
According to ace Arthur Heiden, P-38 bomber escorts were under constant attack, relentless bouncing, all the way to the target. You paint a very lopsided picture, portraying the Germans as the ones who have the difficult job in bomber escorting.

Aaron_GT
06-23-2005, 06:13 AM
My Warclouds kill ratio doubled when I went blue today. It has always been that way; red for beauty, blue for results.

On average the LW planes are better armed. Assuming the usual rule of thumb that 1 20mm cannon is equal to 3 12.7mm guns we have (as some examples):

P51B - 4 points
109G (20mm) - 5 points
P51D - 6 points
P38 - 7 points (without gun pods).
Spit IXc - 7 points
Spit IXe - 8 points
P47D - 8 points
Fw190D - 8 points
F4U-1C - 12 points
Fw190A - 14 points
190G (30mm) - ?

Looking at later war planes and taking 8 points as the mid point the western allies have only one plane commonly flown on servers that exceeds it, whereas the LW have two. If the planeset is purely land-based then the western allies have none, unless the P38 takes gun pods. (and discounting the Hurricane IIC as an early/mid war plane).

So in a pure dogfight with people whirling around where the fleeting chance is the only one on average the LW planes should have more chance of downing the enemy.

If Western allied planes were flown at high altitude in realistic missions the results might be different (also assuming that online pilots bailed realistically, rather than pressing home that last attack in a burning plane...)

Aaron_GT
06-23-2005, 06:14 AM
We would all be flying models that behave suspiciously like the current Me-109 G-2, G-6 with AS, G-10, K-4, and the FW-190 Dora.

Give the performance of the Mustang III and the power of 4 20mm cannon as in the Mustang IA and I'd fly that. Or just let me fly the Tempest V.

Aaron_GT
06-23-2005, 06:18 AM
According to ace Arthur Heiden, P-38 bomber escorts were under constant attack, relentless bouncing, all the way to the target. You paint a very lopsided picture, portraying the Germans as the ones who have the difficult job in bomber escorting.

The idea was for the LW to have 109s fly top cover and typically 190s attack the bombers with heavy armament. This made the 190s very vulnerable if the 109 top cover was insufficient. P38s were escorting at a point when 109 top cover was sufficient, but later in the war when escort duties were taken over more by P47s and then P51s this topcover was no longer sufficient and loss figures suggest that the LW really did have a very tough time of it, sufficient for escorting P51s to be freed to do ground attack.

Aaron_GT
06-23-2005, 06:19 AM
when I did fly the D9 I found that i could literally spray a few rounds at an enemy plane and it would go down very easily

The D9 was about twice the armament of the Mustang III, so it's not really surprising.

SeaFireLIV
06-23-2005, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Locust, what happened to you... not the same Locust i use to know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I flipped out & lost my mind

my one haven of peace & fun is being ruined & its pissing me off thats what happened

Sorry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, things have developed since I last looked. I thought we taught Locust how NOT to panic and scream.

The way you talk you make it sound like going against Jerry is guaranteed defeat... First it`s Germans all Uber, now Russians, I guess Brit planes too. Except of course the US planes which are ... goober? What`s that mean? Is it even a word? Is it a cross between glue and chewing gum?


Please, don`t hit me.
*sigh*

Chuck_Older
06-23-2005, 09:48 AM
OK, so now I understand

Before, VVS planes were for noobs and those who couldn't fly, because they were "easy" to fly. German aircraft were for the elite real men who could handle a real challenge

Now, US aircraft are "hard" to fly, but instead of them being what real men chose as aerial mounts because they offer a real challenge, they instead suck

Is this evidence of a double standard I'm seeing, or has the head trauma finally caught up with me?

faustnik
06-23-2005, 09:52 AM
o freekin come on faust the new blue ac are obviously way better than 304 & if your not man enough too admit that then your just fooling yourself m8 weather its realistic or not NONE of us knows did you fly a FW or a P51 ? No ?

Man enough? Locust you and a few other are the ones whining like little girls since 4.01. If you can't handle the patch, go back to 3.04.

So, your idea of realism is to make everything equal on a your favorite dogfight server because none of us has flown a real P-51 or Fw190 before? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Here are some suggestions:

-read a book.

-ask a real pilot.

-be a man and deal with it.

For your info, I've been flying red since 4.0, so, don't give me the Luftwiner cr4p either. When my squad's P-39s loose out to Bf109s we look to our team tactics to make adjustments. I suppose it's easier for some to crawl into a corner and cry.

CD_Metal_heaD
06-23-2005, 09:54 AM
i think its funny to see all the red players whine about the game now... i fly the 109 for most of the time and i have been doing that since this game came out.. and i can say it has not been easy to face la7´s , spits and planes like that befor... maby the ones who have been flying planes like the 109 are just simply better pilots... i cant say i find mutch diffrense in the 109 since befor though,, i think some of the early models are slower and the ammo do damage now... that is the only new things i can find...

faustnik
06-23-2005, 09:56 AM
i think its funny to see all the red players whine about the game now

It's not all the red players. It's a few gamers who feel they lost some advantage.

AerialTarget
06-23-2005, 10:31 AM
Well, since I fly exclusively P-38, my prospects are much, much better than the other Americans'! However, today I gave a couple of other airplanes a spin, and there's no denying it - the other American aircraft, most of which were already boat-like, are now completely nerfed. In addition, all of the Me-109s as well as the FW-190s have been somehow made better.

The only airplane I ever feared in the Me-109 G-2 days was the La-7. Anything else, including the Spitfire, I was able to handle unless the pilot was vastly superior to me.

Aaron_GT
06-23-2005, 10:46 AM
I fly red pretty much exclusively online but do sometimes fly blue offline to see how the other half lives. As far as I can tell 4.0.1 has generally improved the things for red in terms of performance and flight experience and I've not noticed the planes being disadvantaged. Sure I get shot down plenty online, but through letting myself get into bad situations. The only really significant change I have noticed is that the MG151/20 is more powerful and an Fw190 has very powerful armament compared to the likes of the P51. But that is simply historically accurate so I have no problem with it. It's still possible to down planes with allied aircraft.

faustnik
06-23-2005, 10:48 AM
I'd really like to see tracks of all these "uber Fw190A" maneuvers. If it is true, I'd be happy to jump all over it and get ntrks and data to Oleg. I already won't fly it online now because the DM is busted. If the FM has an issue too, now is the time to get it fixed. So far, I haven't seen it but, maybe when I flew it I didn't try the maneuvers in question. I admit to mostly flying as straight and as fast as possible in the Fw190.

We have seen a lot of evidence on the P-38 L late. It represented the ultimate in the series having addressed all of the earlier version's issues. If you have a problem with it, again, please provide tracks and name specific issues.

As for the other U.S. a/c being "porked", which models in specific have a problem and what is the specific problem?

ICDP
06-23-2005, 11:31 AM
I went onto warclouds last night to "validate" these claims from Locust. I flew the P47 and in the first thre flights I was killed fairly easily. I was not killed because the LW fighter were superior or the P47 is porked but because those blue guys REALLY know how to work as a team.

Kill 1:

I was climbing at an altitude of 3500m when two blue team AC appeared dead ahead at a much higher altitude, big advantage to blue already. One of the fighters (Fw190D) broke low and the other (Bf109) broke high, the advantage grows! I entered a spiral dive followed by a quick zoom climb towards the 109, I only got a shot snap shot off as he saw my intentions. I then dived again with the 109 deciding to climb away and let the 190D engage (they were taking turns engaging). I managed to evade the 190D's attack and dived after him, at an alt of 500m I was gaining on him. He went into a climb and I followed still gaining quite rapidly, unfortunately the 109 covered him very well and shot me down.

Kill 2

I had only just taken off and saw two P38's and one P51 circling our base, all of them were within 500m of me and circling in random directions. 20 seconds later I got hit by a lot of cannon fire from an Fw190A, one of the P38's and the P51 were chasing shooting wildly. Not once did these guys even try to warn me of the danger (good teamwork!).

Kill 3

I had been flying around looking for blue aircraft and saw a 109 closing from my 5 oc high. A Spitfire was chasing him and indeed gave warning of the danger and chased him off. The 109 managed to evade and decided not to press the issue, he dived to the deck towards blue territory. I thought of giving chase but decided against it. I tried to form up with the Spitfire but he didn't seem interested and headed off on his own. I headed deep into enemy territory and saw the most impressive display of teamwork I have ever seen on any server (including online wars). Five bombers in perfect formation flanked by two fighters and two more fighters follwing slightly further back. I was looking at this juicy but dangerous target admiring the great teamwork when I heard loud bangs and got PK'd by an unseen fighter.

Later on I rejoined the server and managed to get a few kills in my P47, both in a 1v1 encounters (a 109 and a 190). Not once during these encounters did I feel that I was flying an inferior fighter to either enemy AC. I managed to damage a few other fighters before landing and disconnecting.

My point is that during my stints on warclouds I never witnessed any meaningful teamwork from the red team. The blue team on the other hand were 80% of the times using 2+ formations flying proper teamwork. Frankly in my opinion it is the teamwork that is working for blue not some uber aircraft FM's.

sgilewicz
06-23-2005, 12:23 PM
First off let me say that I am not an online player. I do, however, play a great deal of LAN missions (coops and head to head) with my 19 year old son and his friends (great fun and excellent quality time!). The problem, as has been alluded to here in previous posts, is the gross lack of high altitude flight modeling. My son and I flip back and forth between sides and our favorites are the P47 and FW190As. We have noted that below 5K the 190s have the upper hand while between 5K and 7K the fight seems to be even. Go above 7K and the P47 has the advantage. That said it is still worth noting that dogfights above 7K are like battles between severely drunken elephants. The original IL2 was an eastern front sim and didn't require high alt FMs. What is being argued here is really a complaint that online battles are being fought completely from an unrealistic perspective forced by the lack of an accurate high alt FM.

My son and I began LAN dogfighting with European Air War. While it's graphics and torque/stall behavior were far behind IL2 FB, Microprose got the combat placement exactly right and backed it up with the expected FM advantages/disadvantages. High altitude combat with 109s, P51s, P47s and Spits was superb. FW190s rolling like mad, Jugs overshooting from tremendous dive accelerations, 109s pulling unmatched climbs and Spits turning tighter than anything else in the air: this was combat above 7K as we have all read about it.

For my money, Oleg should have either redone his game engine, prior to release of FB/AEP, to accurately reflect high alt flight or just stayed with the eastern front. I have flown this game from the date of its release and love it (most of the time) but the poor high alt FM is the allies, red, whatever's biggest enemy. Just my 2cents.

TX-EcoDragon
06-23-2005, 12:42 PM
Nice post ICDP, that generally mirrors my experience there as well. . . though there are a few guys in P-51s and P-47's that will hop on Red coms and do their thing up high and with disciplined teamwork, and they see the results. The trouble is, usually when I get on REd I am the only one on red coms. . .on blue I usually have 4 or 5 guys giving frequent position reports and opposition sitreps when looking out for my six. . . maybe the red guys just don't like me. . . but that's been my experience. Dunno why, that is the main reason I almost never fly red on WC, I can get the teamplay aspect on blue.

VW-IceFire
06-23-2005, 12:58 PM
Nail on a head Eco...for a very long time I've found it hard to fly on Red...long before the 4.01 patch came out and "porked" planes (according to some very loud people).

It wasn't because of the planes. It was always because of the teamwork. For a long time I think it was significantly more difficult for people to fly blue and be good at it. The FW190 has always been a plane that most new pilots pick up, say "yuck this sucks" and go off to some other plane. The 109 less so but still an issue. So I think the general feeling was that people looking for a little extra challenge (rightly or wrongly) flew on the blue team. You'd almost never be accused of flying a "n00b plane" in a FW190. Almost never...

Now the tides have turned a little. The main Axis weapon has been rebelted with a proper ammo load, the new FM favors energy tactics, and pilots flying blue are more accustomed to the change. Red team has not been as progressive....and is now experiencing a large amount of growing pains.

Its time to learn from a few Allied squadrons that know their stuff (I had the pleasure of seeing the 56th FG flying their P-47s to great effect last night) and get back into the game. The AFJ guys used to be all about knowing their plane, their team, and their tactics. Thats what I always heard from them. I'm not sure if its the squad itself or just a few loadmouths from it but you guys need to get back to your roots.

Since the patch came out, I've been flying more and more Allied. I'm doing just as well on one team as the other. I mostly fly Mustangs, a bit of Spitfire, a bit of P-38, and a bit of P-47 when it comes to fighters. They are all good if you know them...

quiet_man
06-23-2005, 01:26 PM
I think it was Kurth Tank who wrote something about the fight over the channel (I can't remember about the versions):
"The Luftwaffe controlled the fight over the channel when a new version of the Spit appeared and the tide turned in favor of the British airforce. We tested a captured plane but could not find any serious improvements, still the german Luftwaffe pressed for a new version of the 190. We did some minor changes and gave it a new designation, it flew not different than the previous version, but when it entered service the tide changed in favor of the Luftwaffe"

every time a new version/patch of IL2 comes out and I look at this forum, I think of this story.


quiet_man

Adlerangriff
06-23-2005, 02:59 PM
Why do we continue to classify the Mustang as a US plane when we all know that while it was made entirely with US parts, it was a dog?

Why do we refure to give the British the 50% they deserve for developing the Mustang into a good plane?

Cyrano
06-23-2005, 03:56 PM
Well it seems this thread has struck a nerve, who would have thought http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

To me all this talk of change in flight model is mostly irrelevant. Honestly guys, all that's changed is some more torque, some more trimming and nose bouncing. Ok big deal, after a night or two you get the hang of it pretty quickly.
To me 3 things are critical in online success.
1-Teamwork
2-Situational Awareness
3-Shooting skills
Lets look at all 3 seperately.

Teamwork.
Has teamwork changed since 3.04? I personally don't think so, It seems to me that the blue side on WC and WC only has always been slightly better depending on the time of play.

Situational Awareness.
Has SA changed since 3.04?
Again I don't think so. SA depends a lot on teamwork, assuming that hasn't changed then SA shouldn't have as well. Futhermore the new planes (p38L and p51III) do not offer any change in Pilot visibility.

Shooting Skill.
Now here is where we have a change. Not in Shooting skills per se, but in lethality. The US planes .50's still do minimal damage (I know, learn to shoot), as a matter of fact because of the current DM of the FW they do even less then in 3.04. Now on the other hand the mg151's have gone up exponentionally. What that translates to is with a US plane you must stay on target longer than with a German plane and longer than in 3.04. Meanwhile guess who's showing up behind you with his better guns???

You also take into account the number of new FW converts and the change in lethality over all for the German guns and you get the results we are now getting.
One last thing that should be mentioned is altitude. I could not agree more with those who say the Red side fights too low. I feel rather confident that if the fights were occuring in excess of 6000/7000m things would be somewhat different. The lethality difference would still exist but that would be largely offset by the performance difference.

Good Hunting!

Tiger27
06-23-2005, 11:41 PM
mmm, cant recall all these allies complaining when it was quite obvious that the 20mm was ridiculously underpowered while they were shooting us down from up to 1k with there 50's.

Now that doesnt mean I want an innacurate FM or one that is balanced for gameplay purposes.

What I am finding is that Im having a lot of fun flying for either side and my kill ratio is roughly the same, a good accurate shot (i.e ball nicely centered, and hitting a major damage point)wether with the 50's or the 20mm is often enough to put the opposition right out of the fight as it should.

Im in agreeance with those here that see that the Russians are probably at the greatest disadvantages.

EnGaurde
06-24-2005, 12:56 AM
i think cyrano hit an important point.

its an interesting paradox:

I demand accuracy! I want every nuance recreated!

and then

I'm losing badly at low altitude! This game is ****! This FM is ****! Im complaining! Loudly!

A huge majority is screaming about balance and not having too much advantage, trying to get a fair fight.

This seems utterly ridiculous to me. If the large portion of the fighting is done at low altitude, then all the high alt advantage of the mustang is neatly snipped off.

And, all the high altitude deficit in the Luftwaffe aircraft are also neatly side stepped.

So we now have strong blue in many accounts, and mediocre red due to no high alt fights.

This, is the way it SHOULD be. *forehead slap*

You ARENT going to get a real reflection online especially in dogfight servers where its free choice to fly whatever you like however you like. Coops, carefully recreated with situations and hardware aligned, would be worth listening to. Yet they dont seem to mention anything a great deal. Drowned out by the whiners?

If you want a real life result, then in late war, flood the sky with red and smatter a few blues around with 25% fuel. Dont b*tch and b*tch about being shot to bits when frankly this may well have happened should numbers have been represented similarly.

People are getting a rude shock when they cant survive hits like they used to from the MG151/20. This has tipped the balance of power to an interesting situation....

hmmm so now we want mg fire doing more damage? well, then if thats porked then we'd best make 50cal mg fire the standard and adjust cannon accordingly. What a tail chase... round. And round.

and round.

my guess is that oleg and his crew are ramming reality as best it can be recreated down peoples throats, and those same people due to not understanding the shortcomings of sims mixed with no idea of how things actually flew or shot or burned or survived make all manner of assumptions on inaccuracy.

the general public making demands to change FM / DM etc is a classic example of the lunatics running the asylum.

Tazzers1968
06-24-2005, 03:38 AM
Just my own tuppence, I admit to being a Spitfire pilot by preference, have been ever since we got one. I do however fly plenty of other stuff, including 'blue' types and so far as I can see the only real difference is the fidelity of the flight model.

Jeff Quill, Alex Henshaw and Jeff Wellum all said that the recomended safe speed for a vertical loop is ~220KIAS, in 3.04 you could pull the loop at 180 every time. Now IRL the Spit could retain enough energy to pull a vertical at 180 so long as you really knew what you were doing. Now you can do the same but if you are not careful the thing will spin so if you are new to it, accellerate to 220 first.

Conversely, the above mentioned pilots all said, and so too did Pierre Closterman, that at high speed the Spit would always outturn a 109 or 190 but at slow speeds, if the pilot really knew his stuff, the 109 could hang with the Spit and if they were true experts they could pull inside the Spits turn. Now you can do the same but if you are inexperienced you will spin her.

I now love the 190. When IL2 first introduced the 190 I was chomping at the bit but when I flew it I was dissapointed and underwhelmed. I never really got the hang of it (because I did not fly it much) until Patch 4.01. Do I think it is overmodelled? No. Not a chance, it is exactly how I was expecting it to be in the forst place, now I can really appreciate it.

Same goes for the P51, I really enjoy it now, I did not before.

I'm still not a brilliant pilot, I don't get enough time to be and I have my good days and bad days online and in co-ops but I rate this patch and the FM very highly in my own ineloquent and uneducated way. Its not better or worse or even that much different, it just has more fidelity and I love it.

Sorry if I have repeated myself. S!

Phil http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sturm_Williger
06-24-2005, 04:41 AM
I think in some respects that the incorrect ammo loadout for the 151/20 prior to 4.01 did the Blue side one enormous favour. They were forced to become better shots because they had to hit with more than a few shells to put the enemy down.

Now that the loadout is corrected and is more powerful, these marksmanship skills are racking up kills.

But the teamwork aspect cannot be overstated. Recently I had a serious high ping problem. When it was fixed, I popped into UK-Dedicated to see what kind of Ping I would get online. I wasn't flying seriously and I picked Red 'cos they seemed outnumbered.

I was shot down twice in short order by a bunch of Blues ( I think it was 2 109's and a 190 ) who were obviously co-operating. In fact, they shot down about 3 or 4 red planes while I was hanging about watching. At no point did any Red flyers get together to try and eliminate or neutralise the threat, they just charged off one by one and died. Had nothing to do with FM, DM or MG.

sgilewicz
06-24-2005, 09:09 AM
Engaurde, you are absolutely correct about the choices people make regarding engagement. If most people choose to fly low level then Blue, for the most part (Americans and Brits) will suffer. That is reality and I have no argument with that. My point is that my son and I both prefer low/medium altitude combat in this sim because high altitude engagements are like driving a bus on a hilly and winding country road, no matter what plane set you choose. That is not to imply that certain planes don't outperform others but simply that it is "awkward". It also doesn't help that at high level you feel like you are playing a space combat sim with the indigo sky. The dot visibility issues become an absolute nightmare against such a background. Fix the high alt FM and more people will want to explore it. Thanks.

Lixma
06-24-2005, 04:38 PM
This thread seems to be the "Font of all Subjective Wailing" so i'll wade in with my own thoughts.

The most notable thing i've seen through my gunsight since v.4.0 is the amount of aircraft departing from controlled flight. On both sides. People are still adjusting to the new FM and are making clumsy mistakes which in 3.xx and earlier would be punished much less severely. The edge of the envelope is now under the auspices of a lot more factors (torque, inertia, e-bleed) and so stuff we used to do without thinking before now needs a lot more judgement. Before people start screaming their plane (or side) has been screwed lets give us a bit of time to adjust to the new FM.

Also, people just aren't flying their aircraft as they should IMO. I can't tell you the amount of times i've encountered P-51s and P-47s running around on the deck. High altitude fighters completely out of their element and getting slaughtered. This is understandable in some respects; as Sgilewicz mentioned flying above 5 or 6k isn't particularly enjoyable due to visibility problems and in a DF server you are going to be hard pressed to find any action up there anyway. But nevertheless it's not the plane's fault that the pilot elects to fight with it outside its favoured environment. If all the P-47s and P-51s in Warclouds or wherever flew and fought the way they ought to then the K/D ratio would be a lot closer. The LW aircraft would be forced to meet them up high where their performance drops off markedly. But it won't happen any time soon. I wish I had a quid for every Spitfire HF variant i'd encountered at....wait for it....1000m.

There are great pilots on both sides who fly to their aircraft's abilities rather than trying to achieve things that the aircraft weren't designed to do. They're the ones still racking up kills on a daily basis - and not throwing the rattle out in forums.

AFJ_Locust
06-24-2005, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
OK, so now I understand

Before, VVS planes were for noobs and those who couldn't fly, because they were "easy" to fly. German aircraft were for the elite real men who could handle a real challenge

Now, US aircraft are "hard" to fly, but instead of them being what real men chose as aerial mounts because they offer a real challenge, they instead suck

Is this evidence of a double standard I'm seeing, or has the head trauma finally caught up with me?


Chuck Ive been flying the p38s since they were released, They were one of, if not the most challanging ac to fly in the sim.

It has nothing to do with challange

just keep your heads in the sand Ill fly blue, I dont mind.

I FLY ALL THE AC

AFJ_Locust
06-24-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Lixma:


Also, people just aren't flying their aircraft as they should IMO. I can't tell you the amount of times i've encountered P-51s and P-47s running around on the deck. High altitude fighters completely out of their element and getting slaughtered. This is understandable in some respects; as Sgilewicz mentioned flying above 5 or 6k isn't particularly enjoyable due to visibility problems and in a DF server you are going to be hard pressed to find any action up there anyway. But nevertheless it's not the plane's fault that the pilot elects to fight with it outside its favoured environment. If all the P-47s and P-51s in Warclouds or wherever flew and fought the way they ought to then the K/D ratio would be a lot closer. The LW aircraft would be forced to meet them up high where their performance drops off markedly. But it won't happen any time soon.



I totaly and completaly agree with that statement........

AFJ_Locust
06-24-2005, 04:57 PM
CHECK THE TEAMS

NUFF SAID

tell me its a fluke LMAO

also you might notice the stats- I use the ac as there ment to be used NOT ON THE DECK

like I said Ill fly blue unless theres a good mission for red

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/teams.jpg

Aaron_GT
06-24-2005, 05:27 PM
Hmmm looking at the page of stats you just posted there, Locust, assuming I didn't mistype anything K/D for Red is 0.74, and for Blue is 0.78 on average. So very slightly better for blue, but not dramatic.

Cossack13
06-24-2005, 07:09 PM
I don't know what all the fussin' is about, I still think this game is fun!

AFJ_Locust
06-24-2005, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Cossack13:
I still think this game is fun!

true

AFJ_Locust
06-24-2005, 07:41 PM
GO HERE ARRON
om/wf-stats/ http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/
look @ plane types

hey it dosent matter right

like someone else said its still fun,

Aaron_GT
06-25-2005, 02:36 AM
Ok, I looked at the stats for the top 20 players.

kills per sortie
blue 203:221 or 0.92
red 79:75 or 1.05

kills per death
blue 203:23 or 8.8
red 79:6 or 13.2

sorties per death
blue 221:23 or 9.7
red 75:6 or 12.5

so given the stats for the top pilots (How does the server rate them?) red is doing better than blue in every statistic apart from perhaps kills per unit time flown (not calculated that one)

WWSensei
06-25-2005, 11:36 AM
Here is where a stats page can throw things off. Look at Sith. The number one player. He's listed as blue. However, Sith flies both sides as he is strictly a bomber pilot. He flies the B-25 and the Heinkel depending on who's side is bombing.

Another is workky. He is listed as blue though he flies the P-38 primarily.

I'm 17th on that list. 15 kills. All of them in the Me110 against pilots doing dumb things in better aircraft.

SeaFireLIV
06-25-2005, 12:13 PM
So now we`re falling into the annoying trap of using biased stats to suit our whines.

Don`t do it.

This is really stupid. So you want Oleg to alter the reality of WWII aircraft so they all fly more or less the same in battle, on rails? That`s what you`re really saying isn`t it. You can`t handle the realism so you want it `fixed` to what you know and loved for all those years - real or not.

Just get used to flying realistic aircraft realistically.

We`re giving you too much attention now. Soon, people will start to ignore these threads if you keep this up.

Aaron_GT
06-25-2005, 12:42 PM
You might be able to show something with the stats on War Clouds. My micro analyses were junk, but noone called me on that. The sample sizes were far too small to be statistically significant. I just wanted to show that the stats have been presented are insufficient to show much of anything and I was able to create statistics showing the reverse of the claim that blue is doing better than red. Sensei has thrown even more of a spanner in the works.

My own experiences online with 4.01 have shown that I can get my *** handed to me flying red (as normal) or as blue (to see how their planes are). The P63C has been my most successful plan so far - it might just have been good connections but the 37mm cannon seems to be connecting better with the enemy.