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Flakwalker
12-01-2005, 04:08 PM
There was a BF-109 proyect to overhaul it with a DB-603?

stathem
12-01-2005, 04:10 PM
No, the 603 was scheduled for the Me-209, it was too big too fit in the 109. Shame, great engine.

Badsight.
12-01-2005, 09:38 PM
DB-603 wasnt just a bigger DB-605

it was a re-design , larger & stronger

improvement would likely have been similer to the Griffon Rolls Royce engine over their Merlin

DB-605s used the 603 supercharger from at least 1944 onwards

p1ngu666
12-01-2005, 11:30 PM
605 is a mix of 601 and 603 isnt it?

the italians used the 603 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Badsight.
12-02-2005, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
605 is a mix of 601 and 603 isnt it? no , they stuck the DB-603 larger supercharger on the in-production 605 for better high-alt performance but the motor was differnt to the 603 inside

i didnt realise the DB-603 was passed around during WW2 ?

Crapperhead
12-02-2005, 12:53 AM
Going by the numbers, BD 603 is a step backwards from DB 605, now is it ? LOL

stathem
12-02-2005, 01:37 AM
No, the Db603 was a development/redesign of the 601; the 605 was a bored out 601 when they realised they needed more power, and the Me-209 wasn't coming any time soon.

Badsight.
12-02-2005, 01:38 AM
Going by the numbers, BD 603 is a step backwards from DB 605, now is it ? LOL
hey! your right!

lol!

Kocur_
12-02-2005, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Flakwalker:
There was a BF-109 proyect to overhaul it with a DB-603?

Umm, at least there was a single Bf-109 G6 (recon variant) with Jumo 213A (thirteen) as a prototype of Bf-109L. The plane of W.Nr 410528, flew first on 12 october 1944 in Berlin-Staaken. Reportedly it was capable of achievieng 780kmh at 10km with MW50 on and 740kmh without it ("Messerschmitt Me-109 cz.3", by Robert Michulec).

womenfly
12-02-2005, 09:23 AM
http://library.thinkquest.org/C006001/engines/db6031.jpg
DB 603 info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_603)

<span class="ev_code_PINK">DB 603, Daimler-Benz</span>
The DB603 was an enlarged, more powerful version of the DB605.
Type: DB 603A
Year: Country: Germany
Configuration: Liquid-cooled in-line engine, twelve cylinders in
60 degrees inverted V. Direct fuel injection,
supercharged. Geared 0.518 : 1.
Cylinders: Bore: 162mm Stroke: 180mm Capacity: 44.5 l
Compression: 7.5 to 1 (left block) 7.3 to 1 (right block)
Length: 2610.5mm Width: 830mm Length: 1156mm
Weight: 910kg
Power: 1750hp at MSL
Revolutions: 2700 rpm
Consumption: SFC: 0.474 lb/hp/hr

<span class="ev_code_PINK">DB 605, Daimler-Benz</span>
Development of the DB601. Similar in size, so that it could replace the
DB 601 without too much modifications to the aircraft. The cylinder block
was redesigned to increase the bore, and the permissible rpm increased.
Type: DB 605A
Year: Country: Germany
Configuration: Twelve-cylinder inverted V, liquid-cooled. Direct
fuel injection, supercharged. Geared 0.594 to 1.
Cylinders: Bore: 154mm Stroke: 160mm Capacity: 35.7 l
Compression: 7.3 : 1 (left block) 7.5 : 1 (right block)
Length: 2158.5mm Width: 760mm Length: 1037mm
Weight: 756kg
Power: 1475hp at MSL
Revolutions: 2800 rpm
Consumption: SFC: 0.473 lb/hp/hr

Kurfurst__
12-02-2005, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Flakwalker:
There was a BF-109 proyect to overhaul it with a DB-603?

As noted there was some aircraft produced with the Jumo213. That's kind of a help, since the Jumo213 and the DB 603 were designed to be interchangable engines with similiar mountings. So yes and no, I don't know of any seriously intended variant of 109 o have the DB 603, but it was certainly considered among other alternatives; and yes, the DB 603 would not be too hard to fit, though it had much larger volume, external dimensions were not much different from the 605s. They were less developed than the 605s until 1944 because they were not fitted to fighters, but the RLM seen the 603 as the engine of the future, as it didn't have the troubles that plagued the 605s

Ie.
DB 605D
Lenght 2303
Height 1050
Width 845


DB 603G
Lenght 2668mm
Height 1142mm
Width 770mm

So basically the 603 was a bit longer (30cm) and taller, and actually narrower. It wouldn't be a big problem to fit. I choosed these two since the 605D was the last fitted, and it had the 603G's supercharger mounted.

The DB 605A was basically an upbored DB 601E with some general improvements. The successor was the DB 605D, that was considered from 1942 onwards with 100 octane fuel, and higher supercharger gear ratio, and was throughly re-engineered and got a lot of improvements, implementing all what they have learned with the early 605. The final version appearing in mid-1944 was quite different from the early projected 605D, having the larger compressor of the 603, oil dearator, better lubrication, new cylinder heads etc.



As for the DB 603 production, it saw quite some service, but mostly with heavier types : Do 217 bombers, He 219 nightfigthers, and the Me 410 'destroyer-fastbomber' ('Kampfzestorer'). No production numbers for the DB 603s, I presume several thousend, given the it drove multi-engined craft. Other 60x production :

DB 600 2281
DB 601 19 000
DB 605 42 400*

*20 385 was produced in 1944.

Here's a fine example of the DB 603. It's largely similiar to the 605 externally as you can see.

http://img14.imagevenue.com/loc240/th_edb_DB_1.jpg (http://img14.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc240&image=edb_DB_1.jpg)

The 'ultimate' DB 603, the 603N would show what potential was there in the 603 series, but it was not put into production before the war ended. It featured a two-stage, intercooled, hydraulically driven supercharger with MW-50 injection, and having an output of 2750 Ps at sea level, and 1950 PS at the rated altitude of 11 000m (36 000 feet!!!). It was a further development of the twostaged DB 603L what is seen above in the previous post.

Viper2005_
12-02-2005, 10:38 AM
Interesting... Why do the left and right blocks have different compression ratios?

Kurfurst__
12-02-2005, 11:04 AM
You should check the 109lair.com and luftwaffe-experten.org forums, it was discussed a while ago... some of the answers I heard :

- side mounted supercharger caused assymetric boost

- design feature to smoothen the run

stathem
12-02-2005, 12:18 PM
Correction to my first post, was the Me-309, not Me-209



Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Flakwalker:
There was a BF-109 proyect to overhaul it with a DB-603?

As noted there was some aircraft produced with the Jumo213. That's kind of a help, since the Jumo213 and the DB 603 were designed to be interchangable engines with similiar mountings. So yes and no, I don't know of any seriously intended variant of 109 o have the DB 603, but it was certainly considered among other alternatives; and yes, the DB 603 would not be too hard to fit, though it had much larger volume, external dimensions were not much different from the 605s. They were less developed than the 605s until 1944 because they were not fitted to fighters, but the RLM seen the 603 as the engine of the future, as it didn't have the troubles that plagued the 605s

Ie.
DB 605D
Lenght 2303
Height 1050
Width 845


DB 603G
Lenght 2668mm
Height 1142mm
Width 770mm

So basically the 603 was a bit longer (30cm) and taller, and actually narrower. It wouldn't be a big problem to fit. I choosed these two since the 605D was the last fitted, and it had the 603G's supercharger mounted.

The DB 605A was basically an upbored DB 601E with some general improvements. The successor was the DB 605D, that was considered from 1942 onwards with 100 octane fuel, and higher supercharger gear ratio, and was throughly re-engineered and got a lot of improvements, implementing all what they have learned with the early 605. The final version appearing in mid-1944 was quite different from the early projected 605D, having the larger compressor of the 603, oil dearator, better lubrication, new cylinder heads etc.



As for the DB 603 production, it saw quite some service, but mostly with heavier types : Do 217 bombers, He 219 nightfigthers, and the Me 410 'destroyer-fastbomber' ('Kampfzestorer'). No production numbers for the DB 603s, I presume several thousend, given the it drove multi-engined craft. Other 60x production :

DB 600 2281
DB 601 19 000
DB 605 42 400*

*20 385 was produced in 1944.

Here's a fine example of the DB 603. It's largely similiar to the 605 externally as you can see.

http://img14.imagevenue.com/loc240/th_edb_DB_1.jpg (http://img14.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc240&image=edb_DB_1.jpg)

The 'ultimate' DB 603, the 603N would show what potential was there in the 603 series, but it was not put into production before the war ended. It featured a two-stage, intercooled, hydraulically driven supercharger with MW-50 injection, and having an output of 2750 Ps at sea level, and 1950 PS at the rated altitude of 11 000m (36 000 feet!!!). It was a further development of the twostaged DB 603L what is seen above in the previous post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kurfurst, have you made an error with those widths? They don't match (are in fact opposite) the widths given in the post by WomenFly. I have to confess I'm at quite a loss to understand how, with a 20mm longer stroke, and the same Vee angle, the 603 can have been narrower than it's smaller brother, unless they shortened the heads considerably (which would have given a much higher C.R.) or took large amounts of metal out of the head walls and crown(which would have weakened them).

Kurfurst__
12-02-2005, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
Kurfurst, have you made an error with those widths? They don't match (are in fact opposite) the widths given in the post by WomenFly. I have to confess I'm at quite a loss to understand how, with a 20mm longer stroke, and the same Vee angle, the 603 can have been narrower than it's smaller brother, unless they shortened the heads considerably (which would have given a much higher C.R.) or took large amounts of metal out of the head walls and crown(which would have weakened them).

Nope, I checked it, it's what on the datasheet for the 603G... (the 603G was eventually cancelled, and it seems it was replaced by the 603E which I believe was the basic 603A + the G's supercharger, and it run on 87 octane instead 96.. just like the high alt DB 605s of 1944, ie. the AS and D engines). Curious though, I have no idea why is that. WF has a picture of a 603L, that's a two staged one, so should be wider.. if the data is for the 603L, too, that is.

Oh, I have an idea. Since we measure here the maximum width of the engine, it's effectively how far the supercharger sticks out from the engine. Not between the banks! Remember the DB series have side mounted superchargers, so they didn't neccesarily get bigger in maximum width even if the banks were bigger. But apart, I have no idea, I don't know 603s in depth, it's pretty chaotic, there are a dozen late war variants and I don't even know which of them saw service and which not. 603A and the high altiude 603E certainly, but the others.. L, LA, LAA, AM, AAM... it's chaos.

Here's the 603G datasheet I took the data from :

http://img109.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=c26_db603g_m.jpg

stathem
12-02-2005, 01:17 PM
Oh, I dunno, mystery then. Lovely Pic. That measurement for width looks to be to the edge of the rocker covers - the blower's entirely contained. Do you have a similar one for the 601/605?

stathem
12-02-2005, 01:36 PM
Ah right, I see what your saying, the 845mm width is the maximum width for the 600/1/5 series; for (presumably) the final 605Ds with a bigger blower which would have extended beyond the rocker covers.

Still, the 603 matches the width of the narrowest 605 to within a couple of mm. Impressive feat without narrowing the Vee.

p1ngu666
12-02-2005, 01:57 PM
http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//db603.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//bitofclass.jpg
the griffon wasnt much bigger than the merlin


and

whos a good little 1 ton monster then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif?
http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//pinguandnapire.jpg

luftluuver
12-02-2005, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Here's the 603G datasheet I took the data from
A DB data sheet for the DB603E-F has the width at 830mm. That is to the outer edge of the valve covers.

Weight given for on the data sheet:
- 'E' 910kg(2006lb)
- 'F' 990kg(2182lb).

Notice that the SC inlet face is inside the valve cover width.

One can see this data sheet on pg60 of Harmann's Dora book.