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protesthishero
07-12-2011, 11:25 AM
First off and most importantly : Shaun, Rebecca and Lucy are not able to hear or see Juno but they ARE able to view Minerva through Ezio's eyes. The only things that set Desmond apart abilities-wise from the rest of the gang are Eagle Vision and the Bleeding Effect. So I've come to the conclusion that Dez is able to see and hear Juno outside the animus only because of the bleeding effect. Which brings me to this : Ezio ALSO saw Juno when he went to place the apple in the temple and experienced something similar to what he saw in Minerva's vault. And why isn't Desmond telling the others about his visions? Is this going to have some kind of significance in ACR? Thoughts, people? And forgive me if this observation has already been made by someone.

FiskMunk
07-12-2011, 11:30 AM
Well, I think so:
Everyone could see Minerva through Ezio's eyes via the Animus, though not outside since they all lacked anything close to the sixth sense - Except for Desmond, of course, whose dormant potential was unlocked because of the bleeding effect.

Maybe we could just ask the writers?

TheLeoCrow
07-12-2011, 02:20 PM
"It is done. The way lies before you. Only she remains to be found. Awaken the sixth. Go. Alone"

This is what Juno says after Lucy gets stabbed. What if after the stabbing Lucy can hear Juno as well? Or Juno speaks directly to her? Desmont is in a coma because of Juno so he can't go anywhere, especially alone.

My theory (and other people's as well) is that Lucy is alive, wasn't really stabbed, it was all the apple's work (Altair went through something similar when al mualim stabbed him) and with everyone believing she is dead, she has to go find ... Eve maybe? (judging from subject 16's ramblings). Or maybe she has to unlock the sixth sense herself, just like Desmont probably will.

It may be a silly theory but that's all we can do until ACR

LightRey
07-12-2011, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by TheLeoCrow:
"It is done. The way lies before you. Only she remains to be found. Awaken the sixth. Go. Alone"

This is what Juno says after Lucy gets stabbed. What if after the stabbing Lucy can hear Juno as well? Or Juno speaks directly to her? Desmont is in a coma because of Juno so he can't go anywhere, especially alone.

My theory (and other people's as well) is that Lucy is alive, wasn't really stabbed, it was all the apple's work (Altair went through something similar when al mualim stabbed him) and with everyone believing she is dead, she has to go find ... Eve maybe? (judging from subject 16's ramblings). Or maybe she has to unlock the sixth sense herself, just like Desmont probably will.

It may be a silly theory but that's all we can do until ACR
Desmond isn't in a coma because of Juno, he's in a coma because of the bleeding effect. Yes, this is a fact. It has been verified by Ubi.
Anyways to stick to the point, though I like theorizing, with this point in particular, I like to stick with Occam's Razor, sticking with the theory that takes the least assumptions, which in this case means that Desmond did stab Lucy.

sidjames61
07-13-2011, 12:46 AM
i think this will have major effects on assassins creed rev

Moultonborough
07-13-2011, 10:16 AM
Lucy, Rebecca and Shaun can't hear Juno because they are not real Assassins unlike Desmond. If another "true" Assassin was present they would of heard Juno as well. The only reason they could hear and see Minerva is because it was transferred onto video.

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheLeoCrow:
"It is done. The way lies before you. Only she remains to be found. Awaken the sixth. Go. Alone"

This is what Juno says after Lucy gets stabbed. What if after the stabbing Lucy can hear Juno as well? Or Juno speaks directly to her? Desmont is in a coma because of Juno so he can't go anywhere, especially alone.

My theory (and other people's as well) is that Lucy is alive, wasn't really stabbed, it was all the apple's work (Altair went through something similar when al mualim stabbed him) and with everyone believing she is dead, she has to go find ... Eve maybe? (judging from subject 16's ramblings). Or maybe she has to unlock the sixth sense herself, just like Desmont probably will.

It may be a silly theory but that's all we can do until ACR
Desmond isn't in a coma because of Juno, he's in a coma because of the bleeding effect. Yes, this is a fact. It has been verified by Ubi.
Anyways to stick to the point, though I like theorizing, with this point in particular, I like to stick with Occam's Razor, sticking with the theory that takes the least assumptions, which in this case means that Desmond did stab Lucy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Juno can't mess with cranial nerves so she had to force it through other means as the guy in this quote pointed out. But In interviews, Ubisoft has stated that doing that to Lucy is what gave him that final push. plus the apple can't put up good illusions against people with eagle vision/sense and they lack the proper nerves to be hypnotized. If Juno could have just put him to sleep, she would have done that-it's the smarter way.

But Juno talks to Desmond through the sixth sense, the only thing that the other lacked. If it was the bleeding effect, it would've been all ghostly white and such. Which is why Ezio is shown separately from Juno when in her temple. You know, when he talks while Ezio is moving around as a phantom doing other stuff. And it's also the thing everyone else int he room lacks.

And IDK,I think you can be a good assassin without Eagle sense/vision, Daniel was good, Lucy kicks butt on occasion. And Desmond is only good because of the bleeding effect...which is how Daniel got better as well, But Paul was cool to.

twenty_glyphs
07-13-2011, 11:56 AM
Actually, it appears that the Apple can create illusions for Desmond's ancestral line. Al Mualim used it to cast illusions of the 9 Templars Alta´r had killed and to create copies of himself. It's unclear if the scenes of the Apple holding Alta´r in place during their fight were the Apple physically holding Alta´r in place or just creating the illusion of holding him in place. It's also not clear if Alta´r was fighting these illusions only in his mind. It also gave Alta´r the illusion of being stabbed by Al Mualim. I think what the Apple couldn't do to Alta´r that it did to everyone else was brainwash him the way everyone in Masyaf had been.

So it's possible that the Apple only showed Desmond the illusion of Shaun and Rebecca being frozen in time and then forcing him to stab Lucy. Al Mualim did say that illusions are all the Apple had ever done during his fight with Alta´r.

LightRey
07-13-2011, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheLeoCrow:
"It is done. The way lies before you. Only she remains to be found. Awaken the sixth. Go. Alone"

This is what Juno says after Lucy gets stabbed. What if after the stabbing Lucy can hear Juno as well? Or Juno speaks directly to her? Desmont is in a coma because of Juno so he can't go anywhere, especially alone.

My theory (and other people's as well) is that Lucy is alive, wasn't really stabbed, it was all the apple's work (Altair went through something similar when al mualim stabbed him) and with everyone believing she is dead, she has to go find ... Eve maybe? (judging from subject 16's ramblings). Or maybe she has to unlock the sixth sense herself, just like Desmont probably will.

It may be a silly theory but that's all we can do until ACR
Desmond isn't in a coma because of Juno, he's in a coma because of the bleeding effect. Yes, this is a fact. It has been verified by Ubi.
Anyways to stick to the point, though I like theorizing, with this point in particular, I like to stick with Occam's Razor, sticking with the theory that takes the least assumptions, which in this case means that Desmond did stab Lucy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Juno can't mess with cranial nerves so she had to force it through other means as the guy in this quote pointed out. But In interviews, Ubisoft has stated that doing that to Lucy is what gave him that final push. plus the apple can't put up good illusions against people with eagle vision/sense and they lack the proper nerves to be hypnotized. If Juno could have just put him to sleep, she would have done that-it's the smarter way.

But Juno talks to Desmond through the sixth sense, the only thing that the other lacked. If it was the bleeding effect, it would've been all ghostly white and such. Which is why Ezio is shown separately from Juno when in her temple. You know, when he talks while Ezio is moving around as a phantom doing other stuff. And it's also the thing everyone else int he room lacks.

And IDK,I think you can be a good assassin without Eagle sense/vision, Daniel was good, Lucy kicks butt on occasion. And Desmond is only good because of the bleeding effect...which is how Daniel got better as well, But Paul was cool to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There we go with the assumptions again. What Juno said was very cryptic. It could've meant any number of things. Her intentions could very easily be very different from what any of us are expecting.

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by twenty_glyphs:
Actually, it appears that the Apple can create illusions for Desmond's ancestral line. Al Mualim used it to cast illusions of the 9 Templars Alta´r had killed and to create copies of himself. It's unclear if the scenes of the Apple holding Alta´r in place during their fight were the Apple physically holding Alta´r in place or just creating the illusion of holding him in place. It's also not clear if Alta´r was fighting these illusions only in his mind. It also gave Alta´r the illusion of being stabbed by Al Mualim. I think what the Apple couldn't do to Alta´r that it did to everyone else was brainwash him the way everyone in Masyaf had been.

So it's possible that the Apple only showed Desmond the illusion of Shaun and Rebecca being frozen in time and then forcing him to stab Lucy. Al Mualim did say that illusions are all the Apple had ever done during his fight with Alta´r.

Altair can see through them easily enough with eagle vision as they are all just common red enemies dressed up as old targets and the apple can hold the bodily nerves as shown with both Desmond and Ezio once Rodrigo took the apple away. Al Mualim himself said he tried to mind control Altair, but that it did not work on him. Remember, when he showed it to him in the studies, but admitted to it during the fight? Altair did get stabbed by him to, since he didn't have the apple on hand, like not on his person.

the truth puzzles in AC2 say that people who have the genes of TWCB lack the proper nerves to be controlled. eagle vision is all you need to see through them all. It is knowledge after all, as said by Juno.

LightRey
07-13-2011, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by twenty_glyphs:
Actually, it appears that the Apple can create illusions for Desmond's ancestral line. Al Mualim used it to cast illusions of the 9 Templars Alta´r had killed and to create copies of himself. It's unclear if the scenes of the Apple holding Alta´r in place during their fight were the Apple physically holding Alta´r in place or just creating the illusion of holding him in place. It's also not clear if Alta´r was fighting these illusions only in his mind. It also gave Alta´r the illusion of being stabbed by Al Mualim. I think what the Apple couldn't do to Alta´r that it did to everyone else was brainwash him the way everyone in Masyaf had been.

So it's possible that the Apple only showed Desmond the illusion of Shaun and Rebecca being frozen in time and then forcing him to stab Lucy. Al Mualim did say that illusions are all the Apple had ever done during his fight with Alta´r.

Altair can see through them easily enough with eagle vision as they are all just common red enemies dressed up as old targets and the apple can hold the bodily nerves as shown with both Desmond and Ezio once Rodrigo took the apple away. Al Mualim himself said he tried to mind control Altair, but that it did not work on him. Remember, when he showed it to him in the studies, but admitted to it during the fight? Altair did get stabbed by him to, since he didn't have the apple on hand, like not on his person.

the truth puzzles in AC2 say that people who have the genes of TWCB lack the proper nerves to be controlled. eagle vision is all you need to see through them all. It is knowledge after all, as said by Juno. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry, I could be misreading this, but are you saying that Altair did get stabbed by Al Mualim? He wasn't. Al Mualim explicitly tells Altair he didn't and we later find out he was able to use the apple to create the illusion that he did.
All we really know at this point is that humans were designed to be controlled by the PoE's through the use of certain neurochemicals. Now if we combine that with the fact that Altair, who has Eagle Vision and is therefore a descendant of the human-TWCB half-breeds, was immune to the mind controlling effects of the PoE from Solomon's temple we can deduce that the human-TWCB half-breeds and their (close) descendants either do not have the neurochemicals that the PoE's use to control humans, which would mean that the PoE's can create illusions through other means, or they do have these neurochemicals, but they affect their brains in a way that is significally different from regular humans, which could have something to do with the sixth sense.

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by twenty_glyphs:
Actually, it appears that the Apple can create illusions for Desmond's ancestral line. Al Mualim used it to cast illusions of the 9 Templars Alta´r had killed and to create copies of himself. It's unclear if the scenes of the Apple holding Alta´r in place during their fight were the Apple physically holding Alta´r in place or just creating the illusion of holding him in place. It's also not clear if Alta´r was fighting these illusions only in his mind. It also gave Alta´r the illusion of being stabbed by Al Mualim. I think what the Apple couldn't do to Alta´r that it did to everyone else was brainwash him the way everyone in Masyaf had been.

So it's possible that the Apple only showed Desmond the illusion of Shaun and Rebecca being frozen in time and then forcing him to stab Lucy. Al Mualim did say that illusions are all the Apple had ever done during his fight with Alta´r.

Altair can see through them easily enough with eagle vision as they are all just common red enemies dressed up as old targets and the apple can hold the bodily nerves as shown with both Desmond and Ezio once Rodrigo took the apple away. Al Mualim himself said he tried to mind control Altair, but that it did not work on him. Remember, when he showed it to him in the studies, but admitted to it during the fight? Altair did get stabbed by him to, since he didn't have the apple on hand, like not on his person.

the truth puzzles in AC2 say that people who have the genes of TWCB lack the proper nerves to be controlled. eagle vision is all you need to see through them all. It is knowledge after all, as said by Juno. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry, I could be misreading this, but are you saying that Altair did get stabbed by Al Mualim? He wasn't. Al Mualim explicitly tells Altair he didn't and we later find out he was able to use the apple to create the illusion that he did.
All we really know at this point is that humans were designed to be controlled by the PoE's through the use of certain neurochemicals. Now if we combine that with the fact that Altair, who has Eagle Vision and is therefore a descendant of the human-TWCB half-breeds, was immune to the mind controlling effects of the PoE from Solomon's temple we can deduce that the human-TWCB half-breeds and their (close) descendants either do not have the neurochemicals that the PoE's use to control humans, which would mean that the PoE's can create illusions through other means, or they do have these neurochemicals, but they affect their brains in a way that is significally different from regular humans, which could have something to do with the sixth sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I am saying that he got stabbed and that the game states that the POE's can't mind control people with TWCB genes in them because the lack the receivers/neurochemicals or otherwise. Al Mualim never said that he didn't, only that he wanted Altair to live in order to kill the 9, as both a service and repentance for his previous actions. If possible, can you tell me when he said that? You don't have to show me a link if you don't want to, but just tell me and I'll play the part, kay?

LightRey
07-13-2011, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by twenty_glyphs:
Actually, it appears that the Apple can create illusions for Desmond's ancestral line. Al Mualim used it to cast illusions of the 9 Templars Alta´r had killed and to create copies of himself. It's unclear if the scenes of the Apple holding Alta´r in place during their fight were the Apple physically holding Alta´r in place or just creating the illusion of holding him in place. It's also not clear if Alta´r was fighting these illusions only in his mind. It also gave Alta´r the illusion of being stabbed by Al Mualim. I think what the Apple couldn't do to Alta´r that it did to everyone else was brainwash him the way everyone in Masyaf had been.

So it's possible that the Apple only showed Desmond the illusion of Shaun and Rebecca being frozen in time and then forcing him to stab Lucy. Al Mualim did say that illusions are all the Apple had ever done during his fight with Alta´r.

Altair can see through them easily enough with eagle vision as they are all just common red enemies dressed up as old targets and the apple can hold the bodily nerves as shown with both Desmond and Ezio once Rodrigo took the apple away. Al Mualim himself said he tried to mind control Altair, but that it did not work on him. Remember, when he showed it to him in the studies, but admitted to it during the fight? Altair did get stabbed by him to, since he didn't have the apple on hand, like not on his person.

the truth puzzles in AC2 say that people who have the genes of TWCB lack the proper nerves to be controlled. eagle vision is all you need to see through them all. It is knowledge after all, as said by Juno. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry, I could be misreading this, but are you saying that Altair did get stabbed by Al Mualim? He wasn't. Al Mualim explicitly tells Altair he didn't and we later find out he was able to use the apple to create the illusion that he did.
All we really know at this point is that humans were designed to be controlled by the PoE's through the use of certain neurochemicals. Now if we combine that with the fact that Altair, who has Eagle Vision and is therefore a descendant of the human-TWCB half-breeds, was immune to the mind controlling effects of the PoE from Solomon's temple we can deduce that the human-TWCB half-breeds and their (close) descendants either do not have the neurochemicals that the PoE's use to control humans, which would mean that the PoE's can create illusions through other means, or they do have these neurochemicals, but they affect their brains in a way that is significally different from regular humans, which could have something to do with the sixth sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I am saying that he got stabbed and that the game states that the POE's can't mind control people with TWCB genes in them because the lack the receivers/neurochemicals or otherwise. Al Mualim never said that he didn't, only that he wanted Altair to live in order to kill the 9, as both a service and repentance for his previous actions. If possible, can you tell me when he said that? You don't have to show me a link if you don't want to, but just tell me and I'll play the part, kay? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Alta´r awoke from his "sleep of the dead" and questioned Al Mualim of his survival, with the Grand Master answering that Alta´r had only seen what he had wanted him to see. He then stripped Alta´r of his rank and possessions as alternate punishment, though also offered him a chance for redemption.
I pulled this from the wikia.
the "see what he wanted him to see" part should be clear enough.

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by twenty_glyphs:
Actually, it appears that the Apple can create illusions for Desmond's ancestral line. Al Mualim used it to cast illusions of the 9 Templars Alta´r had killed and to create copies of himself. It's unclear if the scenes of the Apple holding Alta´r in place during their fight were the Apple physically holding Alta´r in place or just creating the illusion of holding him in place. It's also not clear if Alta´r was fighting these illusions only in his mind. It also gave Alta´r the illusion of being stabbed by Al Mualim. I think what the Apple couldn't do to Alta´r that it did to everyone else was brainwash him the way everyone in Masyaf had been.

So it's possible that the Apple only showed Desmond the illusion of Shaun and Rebecca being frozen in time and then forcing him to stab Lucy. Al Mualim did say that illusions are all the Apple had ever done during his fight with Alta´r.

Altair can see through them easily enough with eagle vision as they are all just common red enemies dressed up as old targets and the apple can hold the bodily nerves as shown with both Desmond and Ezio once Rodrigo took the apple away. Al Mualim himself said he tried to mind control Altair, but that it did not work on him. Remember, when he showed it to him in the studies, but admitted to it during the fight? Altair did get stabbed by him to, since he didn't have the apple on hand, like not on his person.

the truth puzzles in AC2 say that people who have the genes of TWCB lack the proper nerves to be controlled. eagle vision is all you need to see through them all. It is knowledge after all, as said by Juno. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry, I could be misreading this, but are you saying that Altair did get stabbed by Al Mualim? He wasn't. Al Mualim explicitly tells Altair he didn't and we later find out he was able to use the apple to create the illusion that he did.
All we really know at this point is that humans were designed to be controlled by the PoE's through the use of certain neurochemicals. Now if we combine that with the fact that Altair, who has Eagle Vision and is therefore a descendant of the human-TWCB half-breeds, was immune to the mind controlling effects of the PoE from Solomon's temple we can deduce that the human-TWCB half-breeds and their (close) descendants either do not have the neurochemicals that the PoE's use to control humans, which would mean that the PoE's can create illusions through other means, or they do have these neurochemicals, but they affect their brains in a way that is significally different from regular humans, which could have something to do with the sixth sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I am saying that he got stabbed and that the game states that the POE's can't mind control people with TWCB genes in them because the lack the receivers/neurochemicals or otherwise. Al Mualim never said that he didn't, only that he wanted Altair to live in order to kill the 9, as both a service and repentance for his previous actions. If possible, can you tell me when he said that? You don't have to show me a link if you don't want to, but just tell me and I'll play the part, kay? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Alta´r awoke from his "sleep of the dead" and questioned Al Mualim of his survival, with the Grand Master answering that Alta´r had only seen what he had wanted him to see. He then stripped Alta´r of his rank and possessions as alternate punishment, though also offered him a chance for redemption.
I pulled this from the wikia.
the "see what he wanted him to see" part should be clear enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I kind of wanted to play it...hmm, this should be the part right after he stabbed him, right? I'll just look it up on youtube or something.

But I won't deny it though. say he did mean what he said, and that you're right. Doesn't that have more to do with causing him bodily harm over controlling his mind specifically?

LightRey
07-13-2011, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
I kind of wanted to play it...hmm, this should be the part right after he stabbed him, right? I'll just look it up on youtube or something.

But I won't deny it though. say he did mean what he said, and that you're right. Doesn't that have more to do with causing him bodily harm over controlling his mind specifically?
it's right after he stabbed him, but since Desmond gets out of the animus in the meantime it's not right after it in the game. I'm sure there's a youtube video of it somewhere. I'm also sure Alta´r said he "felt death's embrace" which supports the fact that it was an illusion.

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
I kind of wanted to play it...hmm, this should be the part right after he stabbed him, right? I'll just look it up on youtube or something.

But I won't deny it though. say he did mean what he said, and that you're right. Doesn't that have more to do with causing him bodily harm over controlling his mind specifically?
it's right after he stabbed him, but since Desmond gets out of the animus in the meantime it's not right after it in the game. I'm sure there's a youtube video of it somewhere. I'm also sure Alta´r said he "felt death's embrace" which supports the fact that it was an illusion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he felt death's embrace support more pain than anything else? Like when you get beat within an inch of your life (hopefully never) you say you feel death coming closer, embrace, gaze...he felt the pain, proving that it wasn't an illusion.

LightRey
07-13-2011, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
I kind of wanted to play it...hmm, this should be the part right after he stabbed him, right? I'll just look it up on youtube or something.

But I won't deny it though. say he did mean what he said, and that you're right. Doesn't that have more to do with causing him bodily harm over controlling his mind specifically?
it's right after he stabbed him, but since Desmond gets out of the animus in the meantime it's not right after it in the game. I'm sure there's a youtube video of it somewhere. I'm also sure Alta´r said he "felt death's embrace" which supports the fact that it was an illusion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he felt death's embrace support more pain than anything else? Like when you get beat within an inch of your life (hopefully never) you say you feel death coming closer, embrace, gaze...he felt the pain, proving that it wasn't an illusion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Illusions aren't limited by vision and he says that to express his surprise over the fact that he's still alive. Also, he doesn't have a wound in the area where he was stabbed.

EDIT: found a video on youtube, skip to ~4:20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ZxnE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOg3zoVZxnE&feature=related)

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 02:46 PM
I'm gonna stop quoting since it's mainly just you and me here, lol. Oh, and thanks for linking me the vid!

Now, back to this, you can't see anything under Altair's clothes and Al Mualim says that he "slept the sleep of the dead" in which he probably changed them. Meaning that he:

-Used the apple to hurt his body
-the dagger had body altering drugs in it
~for both of these altair screams, noting the increase in pain
-If it was an illusion, why wasn't altair able to see through it? Was the dagger Al Mualim was holding the apple instead?

LightRey
07-13-2011, 02:56 PM
Well usually when you're stabbed in that region you die of blood loss quite quickly. Also, since he's able to walk around and go on a mission right after Al Mualim's lecture I'd say he's not hurt at all since even if you do survive a stabbing like that, you tend to be physically impaired.

video of the stabbing, go to ~9:20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yS14&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi5VBlyyS14&feature=related)

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
Well usually when you're stabbed in that region you die of blood loss quite quickly. Also, since he's able to walk around and go on a mission right after Al Mualim's lecture I'd say he's not hurt at all since even if you do survive a stabbing like that, you tend to be physically impaired.

video of the stabbing, go to ~9:20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yS14&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi5VBlyyS14&feature=related)

hmm, that is true. When you consider the extra layers of the clothes, sash and leather around his waist, then the stab doesn't seem so deep. But if he used the apple, why get people to hold him? He might have used the apple, but for pain instead of the mind.

How about why he told him that he couldn't manipulate his mind then? Why then and not later?

LightRey
07-13-2011, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Well usually when you're stabbed in that region you die of blood loss quite quickly. Also, since he's able to walk around and go on a mission right after Al Mualim's lecture I'd say he's not hurt at all since even if you do survive a stabbing like that, you tend to be physically impaired.

video of the stabbing, go to ~9:20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yS14&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi5VBlyyS14&feature=related)

hmm, that is true. When you consider the extra layers of the clothes, sash and leather around his waist, then the stab doesn't seem so deep. But if he used the apple, why get people to hold him? He might have used the apple, but for pain instead of the mind.

How about why he told him that he couldn't manipulate his mind then? Why then and not later? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He couldn't control his mind. He could however create illusions. This is clearly seen in the final fight. He didn't want Alta´r to see he used the apple, he wanted him to think he was going to die.

final fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6wAVK0Ov6E

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Well usually when you're stabbed in that region you die of blood loss quite quickly. Also, since he's able to walk around and go on a mission right after Al Mualim's lecture I'd say he's not hurt at all since even if you do survive a stabbing like that, you tend to be physically impaired.

video of the stabbing, go to ~9:20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yS14&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi5VBlyyS14&feature=related)

hmm, that is true. When you consider the extra layers of the clothes, sash and leather around his waist, then the stab doesn't seem so deep. But if he used the apple, why get people to hold him? He might have used the apple, but for pain instead of the mind.

How about why he told him that he couldn't manipulate his mind then? Why then and not later? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He couldn't control his mind. He could however create illusions. This is clearly seen in the final fight. He didn't want Alta´r to see he used the apple, he wanted him to think he was going to die.

final fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6wAVK0Ov6E </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and Altair saw through those without much problem.

LightRey
07-13-2011, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Well usually when you're stabbed in that region you die of blood loss quite quickly. Also, since he's able to walk around and go on a mission right after Al Mualim's lecture I'd say he's not hurt at all since even if you do survive a stabbing like that, you tend to be physically impaired.

video of the stabbing, go to ~9:20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yS14&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi5VBlyyS14&feature=related)

hmm, that is true. When you consider the extra layers of the clothes, sash and leather around his waist, then the stab doesn't seem so deep. But if he used the apple, why get people to hold him? He might have used the apple, but for pain instead of the mind.

How about why he told him that he couldn't manipulate his mind then? Why then and not later? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He couldn't control his mind. He could however create illusions. This is clearly seen in the final fight. He didn't want Alta´r to see he used the apple, he wanted him to think he was going to die.

final fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6wAVK0Ov6E </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and Altair saw through those without much problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
what do you mean saw through? I don't remember him noticing the 9 "resurrected" assassinated targets were actually assassins while he was fighting them (you can see that they were after they die) or which Al Mualim was the real one. In fact, every time I fought him in the game I noticed absolutely nothing similar to seeing through illusions and the like.

I'm pretty sure the whole "immune" part of him is about not being able to become a mindless zombie like the assassins in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...rk8g&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWWD9UWrk8g&feature=related)

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Well usually when you're stabbed in that region you die of blood loss quite quickly. Also, since he's able to walk around and go on a mission right after Al Mualim's lecture I'd say he's not hurt at all since even if you do survive a stabbing like that, you tend to be physically impaired.

video of the stabbing, go to ~9:20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yS14&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi5VBlyyS14&feature=related)

hmm, that is true. When you consider the extra layers of the clothes, sash and leather around his waist, then the stab doesn't seem so deep. But if he used the apple, why get people to hold him? He might have used the apple, but for pain instead of the mind.

How about why he told him that he couldn't manipulate his mind then? Why then and not later? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He couldn't control his mind. He could however create illusions. This is clearly seen in the final fight. He didn't want Alta´r to see he used the apple, he wanted him to think he was going to die.

final fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6wAVK0Ov6E </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and Altair saw through those without much problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
what do you mean saw through? I don't remember him noticing the 9 "resurrected" assassinated targets were actually assassins while he was fighting them (you can see that they were after they die) or which Al Mualim was the real one. In fact, every time I fought him in the game I noticed absolutely nothing similar to seeing through illusions and the like.

I'm pretty sure the whole "immune" part of him is about not being able to become a mindless zombie like the assassins in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...rk8g&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWWD9UWrk8g&feature=related) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the 9 thing, sure, I can see that. the only glow red, which stands for bad intent against you.

But when you fight al mualim you can go eagle vision and it shows you which one is the real one in our standard golden colors.

LightRey
07-13-2011, 04:05 PM
I still don't see why he wouldn't have done it with the apple. He clearly could and he had all the reason to do so.

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
I still don't see why he wouldn't have done it with the apple. He clearly could and he had all the reason to do so.

I guess we're at a crossroads then. Because Altair can see through illusions as seen in the last battle, and can't be mind controlled as said by Al Mualim, oh well then...what's your reason against him seeing the real al mualim in the last battle?

LightRey
07-13-2011, 05:49 PM
nothing. I'm sure he's able to see through illusions with the help of eagle vision. It's just that he's clearly not fully able to counter them, and we really have no idea what the extent of eagle vision really is. I just find the idea that he was actually stabbed to require more assumptions and speculation than the idea that it was an illusion created by the apple. I've seen no indication that anybody actually witnessed his fake execution other than Al Mualim and he was clearly not dead or wounded afterwards.
Besides, if he needs to use eagle vision to see through illusions, he'll probably have to be aware of the fact that whatever he's witnessing is an illusion to see through it, since he doesn't seem to use it passively.

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
nothing. I'm sure he's able to see through illusions with the help of eagle vision. It's just that he's clearly not fully able to counter them, and we really have no idea what the extent of eagle vision really is. I just find the idea that he was actually stabbed to require more assumptions and speculation than the idea that it was an illusion created by the apple. I've seen no indication that anybody actually witnessed his fake execution other than Al Mualim and he was clearly not dead or wounded afterwards.
Besides, if he needs to use eagle vision to see through illusions, he'll probably have to be aware of the fact that whatever he's witnessing is an illusion to see through it, since he doesn't seem to use it passively.

Actually, I'm cool with this, it sounds like a good enough explanation to me. AC1 didn't have fleshed out characters and you couldn't really talk tot hem about well, anything. Lol, the only guy who talked allot was the guy who kept saying his "students don't know what it is to truly wield a blade, help me to teach them" so freaking annoying.

But, yeah, I'm sticking with what you said on the post above.

So...we have not been talking about Juno, have we?

LightRey
07-13-2011, 06:32 PM
Oh right, Juno.
well, she was probably one of the more hateful goddesses in Roman mythology, so I think it's quite possible she is (or was) not on "our" side.

CRUDFACE
07-13-2011, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
Oh right, Juno.
well, she was probably one of the more hateful goddesses in Roman mythology, so I think it's quite possible she is (or was) not on "our" side.

True, but she is given more respect in the roman pantheon as opposed to her Greek counterpart Hera, and she did say:

"Who he abhor and honor"

So maybe she started out trying to kill us, but went along with the project later on to help save our race form extinction.

LightRey
07-14-2011, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Oh right, Juno.
well, she was probably one of the more hateful goddesses in Roman mythology, so I think it's quite possible she is (or was) not on "our" side.

True, but she is given more respect in the roman pantheon as opposed to her Greek counterpart Hera, and she did say:

"Who he abhor and honor"

So maybe she started out trying to kill us, but went along with the project later on to help save our race form extinction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There's also the possibility that Venus could be an enemy. If we go back all the way to the myths about the Trojan war, there was a point at which Paris, a Trojan prince, had to choose which of the thee goddesses, Juno, Minerva and Venus, to give the golden apple to that Eris had tossed into a wedding party of the gods, with the inscription "for the most beautiful one". All three goddesses tried to bribe him with (political) power, intellect/wisdom and the most beautiful woman on earth (which turned out to be Helen, the wife of Menelaus of Sparta) respectively. He chose Venus, and later charmed Helen and took her to Troy. This event sparked the Trojan war.
But troughout (and after) the war Juno and Minerva supported the Greeks and got in the way of the Trojans (especially Juno, she's known for holding grudges), while Venus supported the Trojans.

CRUDFACE
07-14-2011, 06:10 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Oh right, Juno.
well, she was probably one of the more hateful goddesses in Roman mythology, so I think it's quite possible she is (or was) not on "our" side.

True, but she is given more respect in the roman pantheon as opposed to her Greek counterpart Hera, and she did say:

"Who he abhor and honor"

So maybe she started out trying to kill us, but went along with the project later on to help save our race form extinction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There's also the possibility that Venus could be an enemy. If we go back all the way to the myths about the Trojan war, there was a point at which Paris, a Trojan prince, had to choose which of the thee goddesses, Juno, Minerva and Venus, to give the golden apple to that Eris had tossed into a wedding party of the gods, with the inscription "for the most beautiful one". All three goddesses tried to bribe him with (political) power, intellect/wisdom and the most beautiful woman on earth (which turned out to be Helen, the wife of Menelaus of Sparta) respectively. He chose Venus, and later charmed Helen and took her to Troy. This event sparked the Trojan war.
But troughout (and after) the war Juno and Minerva supported the Greeks and got in the way of the Trojans (especially Juno, she's known for holding grudges), while Venus supported the Trojans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you saw my post before about that. It was on a different forum, but I was saying how project legacy made a note of talking about Aphrodite on multiple occasions. Ever play project legacy? Anyway, this is making my head spin. Athena seemed to support the other side because she gave Helen away out of her own self interests because of her vanity, correct? Goddess of love and vain...what could she want with us now? Though she did guide a human to one of the apples of Eden in the PL so she didn't mind helping someone out then.

Her and Juno are complete opposites though. Juno/Hera were motherly, while Venus/Aphrodite was all about the now, and getting a quick-ie from Ares in the old days. But I can't tell from right now who got her message: Ezio or Altair. I'm gonna put my money on Ezio and because he had kids later on, we can assume that if she did anything to hurt him, it didn't kill him.

I think Aphrodite just likes messing around with us. Maybe she'll give us a sort of tests when we enter her temple.

LightRey
07-14-2011, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Oh right, Juno.
well, she was probably one of the more hateful goddesses in Roman mythology, so I think it's quite possible she is (or was) not on "our" side.

True, but she is given more respect in the roman pantheon as opposed to her Greek counterpart Hera, and she did say:

"Who he abhor and honor"

So maybe she started out trying to kill us, but went along with the project later on to help save our race form extinction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There's also the possibility that Venus could be an enemy. If we go back all the way to the myths about the Trojan war, there was a point at which Paris, a Trojan prince, had to choose which of the thee goddesses, Juno, Minerva and Venus, to give the golden apple to that Eris had tossed into a wedding party of the gods, with the inscription "for the most beautiful one". All three goddesses tried to bribe him with (political) power, intellect/wisdom and the most beautiful woman on earth (which turned out to be Helen, the wife of Menelaus of Sparta) respectively. He chose Venus, and later charmed Helen and took her to Troy. This event sparked the Trojan war.
But troughout (and after) the war Juno and Minerva supported the Greeks and got in the way of the Trojans (especially Juno, she's known for holding grudges), while Venus supported the Trojans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you saw my post before about that. It was on a different forum, but I was saying how project legacy made a note of talking about Aphrodite on multiple occasions. Ever play project legacy? Anyway, this is making my head spin. Athena seemed to support the other side because she gave Helen away out of her own self interests because of her vanity, correct? Goddess of love and vain...what could she want with us now? Though she did guide a human to one of the apples of Eden in the PL so she didn't mind helping someone out then.

Her and Juno are complete opposites though. Juno/Hera were motherly, while Venus/Aphrodite was all about the now, and getting a quick-ie from Ares in the old days. But I can't tell from right now who got her message: Ezio or Altair. I'm gonna put my money on Ezio and because he had kids later on, we can assume that if she did anything to hurt him, it didn't kill him.

I think Aphrodite just likes messing around with us. Maybe she'll give us a sort of tests when we enter her temple. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah I read that post, but I myself had suggested the possible importance of this particular myth a few months back.
I have played Project Legacy, but it's been a while. Where can I find that stuff about Venus/Aphrodite?
I also wonder if there's some importance to the myth of the creation of Venus. She's one of the few gods that isn't (genetically) related to the other Olympian gods. She was formed from the remains of the genitals of Uranus (as if the guy hadn't enough problems concerning that general area already) after Cronus cut them off.
Anyways, this myth suggests the possibility that Venus is different from Juno and Minerva.

CRUDFACE
07-15-2011, 02:06 AM
Ahh, my favorite myth, just because when I tell people it, they always get freaked out all the time. But she is the only Olympian that has an alternative birth besides the standard Zeus banging everything

Abstergo secure files (http://abstergoindustries.com/securefiles/) Okay, for these you have to extract the file once downloaded, then use adobe reader for the actual readable files and vlc or maybe another video player to watch the intro video. the one with Aphrodite is the fourth memory S04.rar. Oh, and it's like an extra ancient memory! Yay!

Still, it feels a bit out of place because Minerva actual mentions Juno and Zeus under their names and the ones used in the Capitoline triad. When she tells us that she was once known as Mera and Merva or something like that. But now, when you listen, she speaks about those who were peaceful as if she wasn't a part of them. she keeps saying "their" for like their message and what they are trying to do.

If she is separating herself from them and Aphrodite was usually in conflict with them, that could make her out to be an ally perhaps?

LightRey
07-15-2011, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by t260z:
Ahh, my favorite myth, just because when I tell people it, they always get freaked out all the time. But she is the only Olympian that has an alternative birth besides the standard Zeus banging everything

Abstergo secure files (http://abstergoindustries.com/securefiles/) Okay, for these you have to extract the file once downloaded, then use adobe reader for the actual readable files and vlc or maybe another video player to watch the intro video. the one with Aphrodite is the fourth memory S04.rar. Oh, and it's like an extra ancient memory! Yay!

Still, it feels a bit out of place because Minerva actual mentions Juno and Zeus under their names and the ones used in the Capitoline triad. When she tells us that she was once known as Mera and Merva or something like that. But now, when you listen, she speaks about those who were peaceful as if she wasn't a part of them. she keeps saying "their" for like their message and what they are trying to do.

If she is separating herself from them and Aphrodite was usually in conflict with them, that could make her out to be an ally perhaps?
looks interesting. I'll go through it after I'm done replaying AC1, 2 and Brotherhood.

CRUDFACE
07-15-2011, 02:39 AM
Once you beat all three main installments?

Hmm, lol:

3-4 days for AC1 if playing slowly

2-3 for AC2

1-1 1/2 for ACB

ULT1M4T3
07-15-2011, 02:46 AM
Well, Minerva really mentions 'them':

You must find the other temples. Built by those who knew to turn away from war. They worked to protect us - to save us from the fire. If you can find them... If their work can be saved... so too might this world. Be quick, for time grows short. And guard against the Cross, for there are many who will stand in your way.

Source (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Minerva#Dialogue)

I replayed AC2 many times, but never thought about that..

LightRey
07-15-2011, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by ULT1M4T3:
Well, Minerva really mentions 'them':

You must find the other temples. Built by those who knew to turn away from war. They worked to protect us - to save us from the fire. If you can find them... If their work can be saved... so too might this world. Be quick, for time grows short. And guard against the Cross, for there are many who will stand in your way.

Source (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Minerva#Dialogue)

I replayed AC2 many times, but never thought about that..
wait...
who are you saying 'they' are? cuz from where I'm standing I'm pretty sure they were just humans and TWCB that didn't want to fight (anymore) and prepared for all the end of the world crap.

ULT1M4T3
07-15-2011, 03:12 AM
I'm repeating what t260z said. Minerva says like she wasn't helping to build the temples and whatnot. She also says 'they worked to protect us'. It's kinda confusing who are 'we' and 'they'

LightRey
07-15-2011, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by ULT1M4T3:
I'm repeating what t260z said. Minerva says like she wasn't helping to build the temples and whatnot. She also says 'they worked to protect us'. It's kinda confusing who are 'we' and 'they'
Oh like that. That's quite interesting.

CRUDFACE
07-15-2011, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ULT1M4T3:
I'm repeating what t260z said. Minerva says like she wasn't helping to build the temples and whatnot. She also says 'they worked to protect us'. It's kinda confusing who are 'we' and 'they'
Oh like that. That's quite interesting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and when you play the truth files, the person holding the apple has the same shape/helmet as Minerva. Makes me wonder that if they didn't help, then why use them as the base of an AI...