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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:01 PM
Little hard to believe this Heinkel is still flying after getting raked by a Hurricane like this, funny thing is this happens nearly every time. I run out of ammo and the Heinkel flies away, I purposely raked the whole plane this time instead of aiming for engine only.

http://mysite.verizon.net/pmcgwire/stillitflies.jpg


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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:01 PM
Little hard to believe this Heinkel is still flying after getting raked by a Hurricane like this, funny thing is this happens nearly every time. I run out of ammo and the Heinkel flies away, I purposely raked the whole plane this time instead of aiming for engine only.

http://mysite.verizon.net/pmcgwire/stillitflies.jpg


http://www.blarg.net/~Pete/IL2
http://www.blarg.net/~Pete/redbaron.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:03 PM
Learn how to place your shots. firing from the dead 6 will not really kill anything. Try firing at an angle.


Remember, too, that those arrows do not represent the actual bullet path.

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:08 PM
Looks about right to me. That was one of the RAF's biggest complaints about the early hurricanes. The .303 in. LMG's were totally inneffective against bombers. The RAF fixed that problem by replacing the .303's with 20mm's.

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:15 PM
Sorry but I am an experienced aircraft mechanic and no plane will fly with that many holes in it. .303 rounds ineffective? yes, when compared with a .50 cal or 20mm, but it will still go clean through an airplane or wreak havoc with an engine block.

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:16 PM
Yep, been there myself.
As the man said, try firing at an angle.

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:26 PM
I didnt say I couldnt take them down by using targeting, I purposely aimed from 6 oclock and sprayed down the entire plane on purpose. I just don't think any plane could survive with that many hits, and yes I have seen some of the awesome damage shots planes have landed with, but so many subsystems would have been shot to hell that that plane would have no chance. Let alone you can do that to it every time.

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:27 PM
From what Ive read here,FB models kinetic energy,than the bullets could well be bouncing off the sheet metal.

I really beleive though its just that FB is not that precise in the DM department *YET*.

Do you remember the DEV update that showed the current DM in FB?It had the fuel tanks,engine,control lines,etc highlighted.The actual planes skin being modeled is far away.I say this because you can get your IL2's(which I consider to have the best DM in FB)elevator skin completely shredded and you get no loss in elevator authority.You do get the shredded graphics tail but this is only cosmetic.


All in all FB is way ahead of other WW2 sims/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Message Edited on 09/18/0303:29PM by Wolfstriked

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:33 PM
Wolfstriked wrote:


"All in all FB is way ahead of other WW2 sims"


I totally agree. I find it amazing that so much has been taken for granted in so short a time.





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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:03 PM
I'd say at the 6 o'clock angle a .303 round has about a 20% chance of actually penetrating the wings, or tails surfaces. Would most likely only dent the fuselage as well.
Unless the angle is just right it may go under the skin.
As long as the control surfaces are mostly in tact, and the controls working with the engines running you are alright.

All those holes will severly hinder the performance of a high performance aircraft like a fighter. For a slow bomber they don't do much at all.

We've blown holes through the wings of R/C airplanes with paintball guns. Lots and lots of holes just for fun. They still fly with little degredation in flight unless something like a wing spar, or control surface gets knocked off.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:16 PM
hmmm call me ignorant... how do u get those hitmarkings??

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:31 PM
Arcade mode...

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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 02:01 AM
There's much wrong with the DM's, shot a Pe-2 gunner clean through the body including the forhead, twice in the eye's, once through the heart without any aircraft parts between and he still lived. Took over a dozen rounds to kill him from 100m. The pilot was even worse, had to hit him with 8 simultaneous mg hits to finally kill him. Can you say broken. Either mg's are busted, or the DM has gone nuts. Using unlimited ammo, mg's only, laying the fire down with a million hits, that thing should have come down, not even a wisp of smoke.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 05:09 AM
lol at cardinal your a funny guy


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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 07:07 AM
The arrows only show the vector the round hit the surface of the arcraft with, they do not show where the round went after various things such as armor plate, glass etc. Unless there was nothing between the gunner and the round the arrow only tells part of what really happened to that round.

RedManAce wrote:
- There's much wrong with the DM's, shot a Pe-2 gunner
- clean through the body including the forhead, twice
- in the eye's, once through the heart without any
- aircraft parts between and he still lived. Took
- over a dozen rounds to kill him from 100m. The
- pilot was even worse, had to hit him with 8
- simultaneous mg hits to finally kill him. Can you
- say broken. Either mg's are busted, or the DM has
- gone nuts. Using unlimited ammo, mg's only, laying
- the fire down with a million hits, that thing should
- have come down, not even a wisp of smoke.
-
-



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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 07:23 AM
QUOTE

I'd say at the 6 o'clock angle a .303 round has about a 20% chance of actually penetrating the wings, or tails surfaces. Would most likely only dent the fuselage as well.
Unless the angle is just right it may go under the skin.
As long as the control surfaces are mostly in tact, and the controls working with the engines running you are alright.

All those holes will severly hinder the performance of a high performance aircraft like a fighter. For a slow bomber they don't do much at all.

We've blown holes through the wings of R/C airplanes with paintball guns. Lots and lots of holes just for fun. They still fly with little degredation in flight unless something like a wing spar, or control surface gets knocked off.

END QUOTE

You obviously have not spent much time shooting rifle caliber weapons. A .303 round will go through aluminum aircraft structure like a hot knife through butter, hell I've shot through 1/4 steel plate at short range with the lowly .223 Remington. The skin on an aircraft is generally only .063" or thinner except near the wing root. The rear of the Wing spar is full of cables, pulleys, and torque tubes which are very vulnerable to damage resulting in loss of control. Self Sealing fuel tanks could probably handle quite a few hits of that caliber but not that amount. R/C airplanes are nothing like real airplanes when it comes to systems layout. Most every military plane I have ever worked on is packed to the hilt with systems equipment, fuel, oxygen, hydraulic, and dozens of other pieces of vital equipment, Unlike R/C which has the most basic of control servos minimized to the utmost to save weight.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE FB, it's the greatest flight sim ever, but I'd like to see the small caliber machineguns get a bit more bite.

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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 08:05 AM
"You obviously have not spent much time shooting rifle caliber weapons. A .303 round will go through aluminum aircraft structure like a hot knife through butter, hell I've shot through 1/4 steel plate at short range with the lowly .223 Remington. The skin on an aircraft is generally only .063" or thinner except near the wing root. The rear of the Wing spar is full of cables, pulleys, and torque tubes which are very vulnerable to damage resulting in loss of control. Self Sealing fuel tanks could probably handle quite a few hits of that caliber but not that amount. R/C airplanes are nothing like real airplanes when it comes to systems layout. Most every military plane I have ever worked on is packed to the hilt with systems equipment, fuel, oxygen, hydraulic, and dozens of other pieces of vital equipment, Unlike R/C which has the most basic of control servos minimized to the utmost to save weight."

Sure a .303 will go through thin steel plate if it hit's it at 90 degree's. Study physics much? Angle the same plate 45 degree's and see what happens. Then angle it some more like 20 degree's. It'll rarely penetrate. Now look at a wing profile even with thin sheet aluminum. So shooting from the 6 o'clock like that there's only a slim chance of the round not being deflected off the skin of the aircraft. Mainly penetrating where ever it impacts with the most angle.

As far as what I obviously haven't been doing. I own a Enfield .303 from WWII. As well as a 1944 Mauser, a 1945 M-44, and many other rifles. I shoot NRA longe range bolt action rifle matches at the end of every month. I also own quite a few handguns, and shotguns, muzzleloaders too.
Also the .223 you shot at 1/4 inch steel was a military surplus round? IF so what type because likely it was an AP round with a steel core or you were very close.

So next step take the curvature of the bullet from it's base to it's point. Compare that to the angle of the aircraft skin. Now we have a curve meeting an almost identical or similar opposite curve.

So all in all it equates to the perfect situation for thin aluminum or even wood to deflect the bullets. Also a .303 while it is a powerfull round firing a 180 grain bullet has nowhere near the velocity of the German 8mm, or the Soviet 7.62x54 which were there common MG rounds. To list them by both bullet speed, and evergy along with other high powered calibers to give an idea.

.303, .308, .30-06, 7.62x54R, 8.7mm Mauser (Also called a 9mm at times, and a 8mm when it's actually neither). All 5 fire very similar bullet weights. Damage is according to both diameter, and velocity. Leaving diameter out as for the most part we can consider them all .30 cal rounds. Velocity wise the .30-06, 7.62x54R, 8mm Mauser are identical. Yet commonly the 7.62x54R, and 8mm Mauser are loaded with 200+ grain bullets.
While the .308 is one of the most accurate rounds it falls very short in power when compared to the .30-06 and the .303 is under the .308 in velocity. Still a .303 would shoot through a small diameter tree and still go through a man. So it's not lacking. Also range is very important to consider as while they're all long range calibers 800+ yards a round begins to lose velocity as soon as it leaves the muzzle. Thus the higher the muzzle velocity the more energy it delivers downrange. Logically of course. So the .303 having the same bullet weight of the .308, and .30-06 but less than either's velocity makes it start losing a good portion of it's energy out past 400 meters.

Also there's a large difference between the way a round performs from a bolt action rifle, and a machinegun. Being part of the rounds energy is used to load the next round. Or half of it as the spring does the rest.

I think that clears up my estimate of 20% chance.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 08:16 AM
Arcade mode?

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fluke39
09-19-2003, 11:37 AM
Low_Flyer wrote:
- Wolfstriked wrote:
-
-
-
- "All in all FB is way ahead of other WW2 sims"
-
-
- I totally agree. I find it amazing that so much has
- been taken for granted in so short a time.


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True

&


EXCELLENT sig man!! love it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:49 AM
I'd have to agree with Hopperfly on the 20% range, especially at about 200 meters or so. The .303 from the 1940s was an OK round (I also own a 303 Enfield, several 7.92mm Mausers, several 30-06, and a couple .308 winchester rifles). The only thing I'd like to add to what HoperFly said was that you also need to take into account the spin of the bullet on impact. soft aluminum would get some bite on that round and change its direction due to spin.

I also thhought I'd add a bit of trivia.

7.62mm rounds are .308 bullet diameter
.303 Britsh rounds are actually .311 diameter
the 8mm mauser rifle round is 7.92mm and came in two different case lengths(only the larger to be used in aircraft.)

9mm parabelum rounds are .354
.38 special rounds are .357
.357 Magnum rounds are just longer 38 special cases firing .38(.357) bulleter

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 12:16 PM
Dangit there I was typing 8.7mm where did that come from? Makes me sound like an idiot. Anyway I've got a Turkish (long barrel) 1944 Mauser. Thing kicks like a mule, but is fairly accurate. 3 in the 10 ring at 100 yards open sights holding 12 o'clock low on the target. After that the barrel starts getting hotter, and the groups open up wider.

Also an interesting fact is that a CZ-52 with cheap chinese brass ammo will penetrate both sides of a class II vest, and cost less than a Ruger .22 :0

That and all conical shaped rounds especially the FMJ or AP rounds used in WWII tumble upon impact. Thus the round doesn't fly straight through anything.
Typically at close range it simply doesn't have time to tumble when it hit's a person.

So factor it all up if the DM of the game is correct which I have found it's pretty darn close to real for the most part. If you put 3,000 rounds into the aircraft only 600 rounds actually penetrated. Also thats 600 rifle rounds, and once they've go through the metal they don't have a lot of energy left. Especially if they have to go through a spar IF they would go through a spar after going through the wingskin.

Also modern airplanes are full of all kinds of internal systems I know I've flown them. However WWII era aircraft were incredibly simple. Other than controls, and fuel, a few hydraulic's in larger aircraft. So what you end up with is a very large aircraft with not a whole lot of vitale systems.

Of course the easiest way to look at the physics is the skipping rock. Take a rock and throw it as hard as you can straight down into a pond. You get splashed, and the rock goes down through the water.
Take the same sized rock (the other is in the pond lol) and throw it as hard as you can perpendicular or at <15 degree's. The rock skips along the surface. We've all done it and it's the same theory.
Aluminum is much more dense than water. Bullets weigh only a fraction of a good skipping rock, and travel at 8+ times the velocity depending on your throwing abilities. 16 times if you throw like a girl.

Although occasionally even a good skipping rock will not skip and will instead go down into the water.
I hear up north they also skip snowmobiles across ponds.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:06 PM
F19_Orheim wrote:
- Arcade mode?
-

You have to install and run IL-2 Manager (download from Mudmovers) and then activate the fuction... can't remember the name... I don't thin it's Arcade mode... anyone helps?



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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:12 PM
hehe FB's damage system is way way better than any other I've seen. And I've seen some terrible ones. like 1 game where the a/c was surrounded by a box, you shoot anywhere in that box and the plane takes hits, even if no visible structure is there. Fb, you actually have to shoot at things to get an effect, unless of course, you have realistic gunnery off, then 1 mk 108 to a wingtip explodes the target, regardless if its a heavy bomber or a paper plane. And yeah, the best way to get a he-111 with the 8 mg hurri is head on and aiming at the cockpit. If you miss the pilot, the engines are nice and close so you'll probably hit them.

Just before I go........ I'd like to say that Whirlwind on the FB loading screen sig is just too cool, lol very nice.

MD_FuryFighter

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:12 PM
Open the config.ini file with notepad, find the entry arcade=0 and change it to arcade=1, save the file.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:32 PM
Raffw wrote:
- Open the config.ini file with notepad, find the
- entry arcade=0 and change it to arcade=1, save the
- file.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I've never noticed there is that line in the config!
Good to know!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:34 PM
Hopperfly22 I'am sure you have alot of time on the range but I will tell you this even at a great angle a rifle caliber bullet will have no problem cutting a nice long slite in the skin of a plane I have plenty of pictures showing this,the force thats needed to deflect a round at this angle is much greater than the force needed to penertrate that thin alloy skin even if it contacts the ogive of the bullet it will penertrate.

Dont beleave me try it for yourself next time out at the range.

And by the way i hunt often but target shoot little,still both my .243win and .300win mag can group under 1moa at 100m not bad for bush hacks /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 08:51 PM
Cippacometa wrote:
-
- Raffw wrote:
-- Open the config.ini file with notepad, find the
-- entry arcade=0 and change it to arcade=1, save the
-- file.
- I've never noticed there is that line in the config!
- Good to know!

It's too bad this neat feature is hidden away in the config file. It would be used a lot more if it was available in normal mode by pressing a key.

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XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 05:34 AM
air_malik wrote:

- It's too bad this neat feature is hidden away in the
- config file. It would be used a lot more if it was
- available in normal mode by pressing a key.
-

It's not too hard to find... But I guess you're right. Wonder why it wasn't put in the actual UI.

It helps a lot with gunning accuracy.

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