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XGN_King_George
03-26-2006, 02:48 AM
i was just thinking about how fun it used to be playing rainbow six, rogue spear, urban operations, and black thorn on zone and mplayer.

back in those days you were literally dieing to get home and log onto zone or mplayer and see what games were on and who was playing.

usually the good games (the 16 players ones) hosted by known clans were full and you might have to wait 15 minutes just to get into one. and you would sit there hovering with your mouse pointer over the game table clicking feverishly for a spot.

and then when you were finally lucky enough to get one or you beat somebody to a spot you felt like you won the lottery. then you would enter the game and it was like cheers where everyone knew your name. you would be saying what's up to all the people who were dead and who were for the most part all regulars who you played with on a nightly basis.

the games in the series back then just had such a community feel to them and i know it had a lot to do with the setup and interface of both the msn gaming zone and the in between round chat interface for the games back then.

nowadays everythings so fast and impersonal due to things like the addition of dedicated servers. you really don't have the time to get to know anyone or develop a rivalry with anyone because the emphasis is so on speed. there's a timer for how long you have to pick your weapons and then theres another timer counting down to how long the game starts. it just all feels so rushed.

one of my favorite parts of playing the r6 series and logging onto the msn gaming zone was the time i would spend outside a game in the main lobby or inside a game between rounds talking. talking **** usually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but still that was one of the best parts of the game for me. i used to love talking in chat with all my buddies discussing what games we were going to join, who cheats, pretty much anything you can think of. no subject was taboo.

and then you would have the asschimps in main chat who were stupid and goofy but who you would always get a good laugh from. then there was always the obligatory punks who would never learn and who would always be messing with the member +'s till they got booted then we would go and download a zone hack and be back only to be booted again. and all that time you would be laughing your *** off.

i just don't get that feeling from a game anymore or for that matter from ubi's gaming service. i didn't get it from raven shield and i didn't get it from lockdown. to be honest i haven't felt that way about a game since urban operations was released.

that's what i want for the next game in the r6 series for pc. i want a game myself and my fellow rainbow six series players can get excited about. i want a game that has a community feel to it where when you get home from work your dieing to log onto and see what games are on and who's playing.

it's a must this game must possess a a huge replay value. i don't want something i'm going to grow tired of right away.

is anybody else with me on this?

KG over and out

GSG_9_Rage
03-26-2006, 11:51 AM
i completely agree. one thing that you left out was the fact that you didn't have to pay! gaming was free! noone would have to worry about your monthly payment, or if your leader paid the bill. gaming was fun, not a money hog.

Yen Lo
03-26-2006, 11:54 AM
Ahmen BRO! I played on Gamespy, those were the days. Wonder if theyll ever come back? Dosent seem to darned important to Ubi though. They need to implament their ideas so they can lose even more money.

KungFu_CIA
03-26-2006, 12:36 PM
You've identified some very good and key areas like lobby-system, out-of-game-chat, etc.

However, the bigger issue why games are so impersonal these days is because, in my opinion, what UBI and most publishers/developers keep doing and that is constantly try and increase sales by making the games attractive to persons or groups of persons who wouldn't and shouldn't be interested in certain games... Like R6... In the first place.

Lockdown is a clear example of this.

I know we are all trying to move on, but the main thing which pissed a lot of people off with LD was the blatant pandering and trying to lure players who probably would not be interested in R6, nor shouldn't be playing R6 to begin with if we are going to be perfectly honest.

The benefits of niche game communities isn't just they are small so you can get to know most people relatively easy... The benefit of a niche gaming commuinity like R6 is the fact you are supposedly playing with people who are ALSO interested in the kind of game you are and want to be there because they have a general passion/enthusiasm for it compared to most games which cater to more casual gamers and whose communities are more transient because the game isn't that good (or groundbreaking) and as soon as something new or better comes out the majority of the community will also move on/fade away.

This is why I don't think the real "community" aspect of R6 is never going to return, unfortunately. Granted, this is just my opinion...

But the way the games industry currently works, they promote and foster this transient behavior because half the titles they put out don't demand long term investments by communities -- either because lack of technical support or because the game isn't that great to begin with -- Which is why I don't think there really is such a thing as a solid gaming community anymore.

Yes. There are huge, visible ones like Half-Life (CS), BF2, Halo, etc... But if you were to break down those communities, a lot of the membership fluctuates and is made up of a lot of gamers who come and go -- Myself included as far as CS and a few other games -- But again, I believe, this is more because of the games which are being released lately that don't demand long-term communities or investments by gamers because the games are so watered down or trying to cater to everyone they don't really do anything particularly well (they aren't bad necessarily) and it becomes "just another _____", whatever the niche/genre of the game is.

Defuser
03-26-2006, 03:13 PM
Well said KFCIA - although can I just add that games companies like to encourage loyalty to 'franchises' rather than 'games'?

One of the things I've heard about the industry is that as soon as a game is successful, it becomes referred to as a 'franchise' rather than merely a 'game'. What a way to strip personality and emphasise the money making aspect, guys! You're instead buying into a brandname and the individual nature of the experience is diminished.

This is something that simply cannot happen to particularly tactical games as by its very nature it is not a 'transient' experience - it demands attention, long-term commitment and strategy. The tactical shooter genre is one in which you can, theoretically, pop on for a 'quick blast' if you so desire but in doing so you'll be doing completely the wrong thing. If it is an adquately tactical game, you'll go wrong due simply to lack of seriousness with which you'll be treating the game - as a 5 minute distraction, rather than an immersive and in-depth challenge, to excite you and let you into its world.

It is useless trying to foster just such a 'transiet community' around a game - you can manage it theoretically with a 'franchise' - but never a game.

XGN_King_George
03-26-2006, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by GSG_9_Rage:
i completely agree. one thing that you left out was the fact that you didn't have to pay! gaming was free! noone would have to worry about your monthly payment, or if your leader paid the bill. gaming was fun, not a money hog.

very true, i've yet to pay a monthly fee for a game service with the exception of xbox live but i like playing my xbox online so what are you going to do lol

i have however rented a dedicated server for different games that i've played and it can get expensive so i know where your coming from from there also.

XGN_King_George
03-26-2006, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by KungFu_CIA:
You've identified some very good and key areas like lobby-system, out-of-game-chat, etc.

However, the bigger issue why games are so impersonal these days is because, in my opinion, what UBI and most publishers/developers keep doing and that is constantly try and increase sales by making the games attractive to persons or groups of persons who wouldn't and shouldn't be interested in certain games... Like R6... In the first place.

Lockdown is a clear example of this.

I know we are all trying to move on, but the main thing which pissed a lot of people off with LD was the blatant pandering and trying to lure players who probably would not be interested in R6, nor shouldn't be playing R6 to begin with if we are going to be perfectly honest.

The benefits of niche game communities isn't just they are small so you can get to know most people relatively easy... The benefit of a niche gaming commuinity like R6 is the fact you are supposedly playing with people who are ALSO interested in the kind of game you are and want to be there because they have a general passion/enthusiasm for it compared to most games which cater to more casual gamers and whose communities are more transient because the game isn't that good (or groundbreaking) and as soon as something new or better comes out the majority of the community will also move on/fade away.

This is why I don't think the real "community" aspect of R6 is never going to return, unfortunately. Granted, this is just my opinion...

But the way the games industry currently works, they promote and foster this transient behavior because half the titles they put out don't demand long term investments by communities -- either because lack of technical support or because the game isn't that great to begin with -- Which is why I don't think there really is such a thing as a solid gaming community anymore.

Yes. There are huge, visible ones like Half-Life (CS), BF2, Halo, etc... But if you were to break down those communities, a lot of the membership fluctuates and is made up of a lot of gamers who come and go -- Myself included as far as CS and a few other games -- But again, I believe, this is more because of the games which are being released lately that don't demand long-term communities or investments by gamers because the games are so watered down or trying to cater to everyone they don't really do anything particularly well (they aren't bad necessarily) and it becomes "just another _____", whatever the niche/genre of the game is.

i totally agree i think what it all boils down to is money. i think ubi in an attempt to wring more dollars out of an already profitable series has dumbed it down and tried to make it cater to a wider audience which in turn causes it to lose it's uniqueness and appeal to it's core audience.

another clear example of this is ubi's recent trend of developing a console version of a game and then porting it to pc rather than than realizing that that pc and console gamers desire and require two totally different things from a game and releasing two totally seperate games. one for each platform.

in my opinion it's just their way of trying to save money and increase their profit margin any way they can by mass producing one single game and having the console version of that game ported over to pc which i'm going to assume is cheaper than having a whole other game developed.

whats the cost of doing this though? the games get more and more generic and the players and gaming indusrty magazines and websites lose more and more respect for the publisher and developer.

i know i've lost some respect for ubi and rse after selling us that bull**** that is lockdown. and i just got my pcgamer in the mail and after reading their review of lockdown it's apparent they've lost some respect for ubi and rse as well.

Imparfait
03-26-2006, 07:58 PM
What bugs me about it all is the lack of respect for the consumer.

You pay so much money for Lockdown, turns out its a substandard product with too many bugs and more or less unplayable online.

Instead of dedicating some support to making the game better and more playable they start pushing some new game at us, twice as flashy and probably only a little more complex.

I have no more loyalty towards UBI/RSE and will not be purchasing their products in the future unless they are truly works of art.

Woosy
03-26-2006, 10:14 PM
I have made ALOT of friends from Raven Shield, it could be because I mainly play co-op and have got to know people whilst waiting dead. To be honest with you it has been my bridge to many different people from different countries, and have made lots of friends from all over the world. The zone really has just changed it's name to xfire, because I get so many requests to play or have a mass chat, I have got to know people like that aswell.

Honestly, I have never made any friends on Counter-Strike, BF2 or games on the Adversial mode. This is mainly because the attitude is so different, thats where it's impersonal. People are like "I pwn you noob" whatever that means... or "Girls can't play get out the server before I ban you" So I guess really depends what mode you play. Co-op I have fun make friends all the time, Adversial I don't, unless it's NFS MW. *lol*

SAS_Shield
03-26-2006, 11:27 PM
i have the exact same feeling woosy, co-op atmosphere is very different compared to advers, two distinct groups of people play

captainlol
03-26-2006, 11:39 PM
I totally agree with KG on his first post. About that no subject being taboo, I remember one night we were all on MSN Gaming Zone talking about..self-pleasure..and zrage mentioned something about a guy doing this tree, and having it fall over. LOL..He was probably lying, but I still had some really good times there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Defuser
03-26-2006, 11:41 PM
Being a long time co-op player myself (although I did used to play a lot of adversarial before that), may I just ask what it is about co-op you find so enthralling? I ask because I have a specific point in mind I want to make about multiplayer in general and I'd like to hear your thoughts in advance.

Woosy
03-27-2006, 12:02 AM
Many reasons, one because there is no player versus player elements, so it's a more relaxed atmosphere for me and others, as there is no real need to get highest score on the board. The other reasons is because, players who arn't as good I can take time out in-game and tell them what to do and help out there is a no rush. There is more teamplay elements. Like penthouse or Presidio on hostage rescue where it is mission based, it's not easy and I find even on public play, people do listern and it rocks when everyone comes together and completes it, you feel there is a purpose then doing TDM which has no mission objectives just kill.

The overall attitude of players is far better, playing co-op, granted you will get a tker or someone who is a total nutcase on the rare occasion, but overall people rawk in co-op, I don't get intimdated and i don't get called names for getting killed by Artificial Inteligence, I'm welcome on pretty much every co-op server, i have never been banned from one.

It's not just Rainbow Six, It's Splinter cell Chaos theory aswell, CO-OP takes teamwork and thats one of the best things about it, without you're team mate you can't get on ledges can't get up vents or complete the mission without your team mate there is a "purpose", the attitude there is the same it's fun, no intimidation. Now play SCCT on Versus and it's a whole different ball game, You get intimation, all sorts of in-game innuendo's and it's not a fun place to be.

The only time I have fun playing Adversial is when my friends are playing with me, they treat me better then the community can ever do and it's fun, but for actually making friends and learning new things in-game co-op is the mode for that.

P.S

The other reason is in Adversial, players stick to mental rules, which are like no camping or you're banned you must always rush a certain section, taking or doing certain things are cheap or noobish, it's just never GG's. Though people use smoke and HBS on co-op which i dislike, if they complete the map, it's always good to watch. I just hate those people who bash zulu like those bash the beever games at the carnival.

Defuser
03-27-2006, 12:46 AM
Aha, I see. So it's the relaxed and friendly atmosphere, even in public servers, that appeals to you? I'd say that's one of my reasons, but I have others. But first, let me tell you a little story about a night spent playing co-op with somebody I'd never met on 'The Regiment'.

This is going to sound pretty discourteous, but I can't for the life of me remember the poor bugger's name - which is a shame, because if I see him in a game again I'd instantly praise his skill and join in. It was one of those rare moments where you simply 'click' in an online game with somebody you haven't even seen. Our playing styles were somewhat identical - we'd both played through the singleplayer, appreciated it, and wanted to replicate the experience online. We both wanted to do things as tactically as possible. After the initial hellos, because it was just me and him in the server, we started playing.

Right from the get go I knew this was a player who knew what co-op was meant to be about - the comaraderie, the support, the team-work. It may sound strange but we didn't need teamwork - we always kept an eye on what the other was doing and adapted our plans around that. If he approached a door with a flash out, I'd move up ready to open it and then clear - him watching the side I take and covering the other. It worked so organically, so smoothly, we were a well-oiled machine.

The point I really noticed that both he and I were working so well together was when we came to clearing a long hallway - we leapfrogged, leaning out from awnings, covering the other as we moved further and further up to the corner. As far as I know, normally no enemies attack this corridor - but we did it anyway. It was the caution - we were so totally immersed in the moment, at any point it seemed like an x-ray would come bounding down the corridor to take us both out. And all this without a word.

When it came to clearing the commons, both he and I produced our flashes and stood either side of the doorway - when the flashes were out, we both moved in and the raging gunfire and screams and shouts amongst pure tactical movement - either covering and clearing, move up on the same intervals - and no yankees harmed and all x-rays neutralized... That was simply the best co-op experience I've ever had. It was simply awesome. We never exchanged another word after the hellos. When that round finished, we both said 'Awesome' (or words to that effect). The following rounds, we did it all again, only this time with differing tactics. Again, no communication necessary. When I disconnected, all we had to say to each other was 'GGs'. And that was it. Brilliant.

The whole point of this inconspicious slice of life from the morass of gaming obscuria is that a well-produced co-op mode should aim for two things - to reproduce the tension and excitement of the singleplayer game in a group environment, and help to facilitate teamwork. Now, I barely said a word to the guy in the game - but imagine if every game we could manage to secure some understanding over tactics? When I used to play Vietcong with my flatmate, it got so tense (and hilarious) I'd hear him screaming 'GRENADE!!' at the top of his lungs when a potato masher landed in our bush. But even that paled in comparison to the pursuit and dedication to the tactics. When it worked, and worked well, it was an awesome experience.

It seems that every now and again, I'll play a co-op game with some like-minded but ultimately rather selfish participants, and once in a blue moon, I'll play a game where somebody who just 'gets it'. They understand the game, they understand the dedication to realism and the dedication to making the experience as memorable as possible. It reminds me of times when I constructed an Operation Flashpoint map with almost 90% randomized enemies, a complicated affair, with densely scripted MSRs in Everon that had to be mined to nail a patrolling Shilka at the right time, and to satchel a Shilka in Morton... Playing with my brother, the operation lasted about 3 hours. I'd set the mission time to the same as the time we began playing. The sun came up as we were playing, in game and outside. We literally had to rush as the enemies would see us in the daylight and we needed to deal with the last Shilka and call in the airstrike. He died blowing the last Shilka - I called to him to detonate as its turret turned while he crawled away. The airstrike after all that work was awesome...

Co-op doesn't have to be the only mode like this. With greater communication and better facilities for connecting gamers, we can have persistent and friendly microcosms within the gaming community to call our own. These can, and should be the cornerstones of our dedication to the game. There are thousands upon thousands of gamers sick to the back teeth of the 'you suck n00b' school of online combat. Anybody who has ever had a pleasant experience in a public server with amiable co-players will atest to that. My list of xfire contacts for BF2 grew with every few games - pretty soon I had a solid bunch of players with which to discuss tactics and group up with. Squads suddenly took on a whole new meaning, a whole new significance to the greater war effort online. When you play with people you at least have some prior experience with, and respect the opinion and company of, suddenly the enjoyment is magnified.

Co-ops given me some great memories and some highlights of my gaming experiences thus far. With R65 hopefully providing an equivalent experience, here's to many more!

DreamMarine
03-27-2006, 01:04 AM
It's nice to listen to you guys talking about your coop-sessions! It seems as if I have missed some great comrades in my coop-sessions! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I agree for 100% for what Woosy and Defuser said about coop! I hope that we all meet us some time online in a R6:5 that has the same tactical depth as R6:1-3. I would love to play some rounds with you guys! ^^

DreamMarine

Woosy
03-27-2006, 01:24 AM
I have a friend like that, Raven_Broz, it's scary I think he can read my mind. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif We will clear buildings without any form of typed communication, I will pull out a flashbang look at him and see his players head nod, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif i'll chuck in a flash bang let it go off open the door and follow behind him. It rawks! when you do it so fast you can clear the map very quickly, and efficiently. I mean hes fab. May sound wrong but he will keep tabs on how many I've thrown or look at my bootay, where the fb's are located and when i'm out, he moves up to flash the room.

The best one I can think of was Airport on hostage rescue with the two pilots upstairs, I flashed the room he opened the other door we both breached and hit our targets, and hit the voice message button clear so fast that our operatives didn't say anything at all just the words came up [Clear]. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It's sad to have one of us die because the fun goes, but it's still GG's.

When you can organise an entire server to do it on maps it's just amazingly fun, completing maps in as quick as two minutes it's just WOW!. There is rarely any communication to be honest, but some players who wish to learn we are always there to help, and we usualy become friends. Then the next time we get together and do different room clearing drills we all know what we have to do, instead of standing and waiting around.

To me it's always been a fun mode, there seems to be a purpose other thaan just to kill the enemy, and with a variety of maps and mission types and tons of cool people to play with, I can never get bored. What would like to see is what you mention about team-work, not everyone is on the same level or understanding. I hope they make a training level like in TR where you can train with online players in Rainbow. Because games can only get better and push players to a whole new level of knowledge of tactics and most of all it's fun!

SAS_Shield
03-27-2006, 11:15 AM
i play coop for prety muc hteh same reason me and my online teamamtes play the game in the same tactical thinking way. the way it should be done IRL or as close as possible as the game permits, I think that is more enjoyable, but everyone is differnet and some dont want to spend the time doing that.

Relenquish
03-28-2006, 12:37 PM
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PS. thats Swat 3 and Swat 4 as well. Some of us also play TR as well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
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Woosy
03-28-2006, 01:45 PM
Wha? 0800 and its 5, don't you mean 090? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif By the way I tried going on your clan server, it kept asking for a password??? There seems to be two SAS clans aswell, it's very confusing.

Relenquish
03-28-2006, 02:04 PM
Yer i noticed that problem recently, It seems to be ok now. I always have problems joining servers though.

[SAS] Training Grounds are our ones.

It was infact a problem with ubi not that it was actually passworded I think.