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View Full Version : Fighter pilots...would this apply to you ??



MB_Avro
03-08-2005, 03:12 PM
Sorry to have hijacked Taylortony's previous thread...but check the link.Pilot Bob Doe allowed a bf109 that he had damaged to ditch and be rescued by German E-Boats.He received a letter from the German pilot's wife in the 1970s thanking him for saving her husbands life through Bob's chivalry.I would like to think that I would have done the same...but who knows for sure ??

Regards,
MB_Avro


http://www.bbm.org.uk/posters.htm

Vortex_uk
03-08-2005, 03:15 PM
Difficult to say,if your in the army/air force, your taught to kill your enemy,and its easy to say you could let an enemy live when you not in the real thing,but if you were really in that situation,its impossible to say what your actions would be.

NORAD_Zooly10
03-08-2005, 03:21 PM
I for one could never answer your question due to the fact I have not and never will be in that position thankfully. Given a hypothetical question though, i would say that I hope i would be able to act in such a chivalrous manner.
~S~
Zooly
(now La7_Zooly)

Philipscdrw
03-08-2005, 03:49 PM
I suppose shooting at the aircraft, when it's obvious that it will have to ditch, is akin to shooting at parachutes. You've succeeded in denying the Luftwaffe the use of one of their aircraft, which is half the victory.

Diablo310th
03-08-2005, 04:00 PM
Actually...think about it. How many of us in this game would allow an enemy ac to ditch without plugging it with a few extra to make sure it went in? All of us would like to think that in real life situation we would show chivalry such as this, but....I tend to think that there would be even in real life a sence of competitiveness and a will to live would make most of us get that last shot in. Not necesarily to kill the pilot but to "make sure". Even tho we may not want or like to admit it....battle is competition....competition to live and most of us would get that last shot in. Think about it next time you see an ac on fire or smoking and going down before you decide to plug it one last time.

MrOblongo
03-08-2005, 04:05 PM
Well, USAAF pilots frecuently strafed luftwaffe planes which needed to crash land in order to kill the pilot when he was trying to escape. What a change of behaviour from BOB to 1944/45 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

"It skidded over several fields and came to rest and caught fire. The pilot hopped out and started to run. The rest of my flight came over and strafed the plane and No. 4 man hit the pilot running away from the plane. The enemy aircraft was burning brightly, giving off great clouds of black smoke"

"Both P-51 pilots then strafed the pilot on the ground, but his fate is uncertain. Zach remembers that he missed, but thinks Karger may have hit him. "

Source: http://www.cebudanderson.com/262.htm

Potatodip
03-08-2005, 04:16 PM
Well...im one of the few who doent go to mutch into points, i fly to evolve my skills, not to get points. If i damedge a plane so i can se he cant do mutch more, i leave him alone (normaly someone else comes along and fireball the dude)

But that is me. I also go more into the manouvering kill where i doent fire a single shot, but outmanouver the enemy so he chrashes

For me its not important to show the "world" that i can get kills, for me it is more important to say to my self that i had the opertunity, but there were no reson to give the enemy the final blow. The more planes i criple, the easyer it is for my team m8`s to bring them down, i prefere team stats instead of personal stats, but thats me

horseback
03-08-2005, 05:26 PM
Without an AI wingman around to steal credit for the kill, I'd save my ammo for getting home.

Late war, there was an unspoken policy in some USAAF units to try to deprive the LW of as many pilots and aircrew as possible. The stated aim of the 8th AF was to destroy the Luftwaffe, and any enemy pilot who parachuted or ditched his aircraft in his own territory would be back up tomorrow or next week to try to kill you or your buddies again.

I remember reading a passage in 1000 Destroyed, where one of the 4th FG aces had helped chase down a particularly dangerous pilot in a 109 that had been 'cornered' by two flights (a total of 8 a/c) of Mustangs; he had taken a few hits, but he'd gotten a few shots of his own off and one of the Mustangs and his wingman had to turn for England. This Jerry had been getting his guns close to bearing on this Eagle Squadron veteran, which quickly cured him of any illusions of this being anything but a fight to the death. When he'd finally disabled this character's aircraft, the canopy had popped off and the guy was clearly ditching, he had to make a decision. This guy was very good, and he would be back up tomorrow to kill some other Americans, possibly friends or acquaintances; a final burst knocked him back into his cockpit, where he stayed until his 109 hit the ground.

There was really very little difference between this and an infantryman blazing away at enemy soldiers caught in camp, out of reach of their weapons. The rule of thumb there is if you can't capture him without excessive risk, kill him.

If you knock down an enemy pilot over your own territory, by all means, avoid killing him. He is no longer an enemy asset. Over his own territory, however, he is an escaping enemy soldier. You have to make your own judgement, and be able to live with it.

cheers

horseback

PBNA-Boosher
03-08-2005, 06:07 PM
I would probably have done the same. I'm not in there to kill the people, I'm there to make sure the mission is accomplished. If shooting holes in the enemy's wings is all that it takes to accomplish the mission safely, then why bother killing him? Besides, it's not a moral thing to do, and you need that ammunition for more important things, like if you were bounced by fighters on the way home (a more than likely occurance.)

himura108
03-08-2005, 06:13 PM
Killing the pilot wasnt a tradition on the western front until the US pilots started it.
And it was quite a surprise to the german pilots too. They had to open the shoot about 100 metres above the ground to avoid being shot in the parashoot.
This problem has propably roots in traditions, religion etc. Just look at the japanese , they have completely different approach to death and killing in war.

LeadSpitter_
03-08-2005, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by himura108:
Killing the pilot wasnt a tradition on the western front until the US pilots started it.
And it was quite a surprise to the german pilots too. They had to open the shoot about 100 metres above the ground to avoid being shot in the parashoot.
This problem has propably roots in traditions, religion etc. Just look at the japanese , they have completely different approach to death and killing in war. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You are absolutely WRONG! All sides had pilots who did this, especially the russians. The luft was know to do it as well to all sides, japanese and americans as well.

All sides resorted to kamakazi attacks as well at times tarran ramjager kamakazi or suiciderun by the brits and americans.

So dont go saying the americans started it first thats pure bullchit himura and you are DEAD WRONG. There are hundreds of occasion where the luft shot bailers from halifax lancasters b17 b26 b24 before they even had escort fighters that could cover them.

The japanese and germans started destroying the enemy on the ground while trying to take off early during the early invasion of russia as well as poland france and battle of britian.

Also read Hans Joachim Marseille's biography, 12 spitfire kills credited all on the ground straffing them all during one of his missions, I think 17 kills was his best in one day of combat if I remember correctly.

Zyzbot
03-08-2005, 06:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by himura108:
Killing the pilot wasnt a tradition on the western front until the US pilots started it.
And it was quite a surprise to the german pilots too. They had to open the shoot about 100 metres above the ground to avoid being shot in the parashoot.
This problem has propably roots in traditions, religion etc. Just look at the japanese , they have completely different approach to death and killing in war. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



The Germans (and many others) were quite familiar with shooting pilots before the US ever got involved:

GERMANS SHOOTING POLISH PILOTS IN PARACHUTES:

€œIn the same battle, pilots of 123. Fighter Eskadrille, flying obsolete PZL P.7a fighters, were surprised by Bf 110's of I/LG1 (commander Maj. Grabmann was wounded in a morning fight, so the unit was led this time by Hauptmann Schleif). Cpt. Mieczyslaw Olszewski, 123's commander, was quickly shot down and killed, his P.7 crashing near Legionow. Three other pilots shot down, bailed out and parachuted: Sec.Lt. Stanislaw Czternastek, Sec.Lt. Feliks Szyszka and cadet Antoni Danek. Only Czternastek safely reached the ground: Szyszka and Danek were attacked in the air. Strafed by a German fighter, Danek got down without injury. Szyszka wasn't so lucky, suffering 16 wounds. He was transported by civilians to a hospital. During that combat on 1 September 1939, I.(Z)/LG 1 escorted the He 111s of KG 27 and LG 1 against the airport of Warsaw. The Bf 110s claimed 5 PZL-fighters shot down - 3 by Hauptmann Fritz Schleif, one each by Unteroffizier Sturm and Unteroffizier Lauffs.

2 September 1939, about 16:00, Lodz area. Eight PZL fighters of III/6 Squadron clashed with 23 Bf 110's of I./ZG76. In the battle, Sec.Lt. Jan Dzwonek was shot down. Hanging in his parachute, he was attacked twice by a Bf 110. Apparently, the Luftwaffe pilot was so busy attacking the defenseless Dzwonek, that Corporal Jan Malinowski, flying an obsolete P.7 fighter, downed the German plane without any problem. See details in the story: Jan Dzwonek - within an ace of death.

3 September 1939, about 10:00 six PZL P-11c of 112. Eskadra Mysliwska (Fighter Eskadrille), leaded by commander of III/1 Dywizjon (Squadron) Cpt. Zdzislaw Krasnodebski took off against German Bf 110 fighters. In hard combat over Wyszkow city, Krasnodebski was forced to bail out. The German pilot who shot him down, aimed to finish his victim, shooting at Krasnodebski while he slowly glided down in his parachute. But Lt. Arsen Cebrzynski saw this deadly pass and the Luftwaffe pilot soon became a victim. Leutnant Barents, a veteran of "Legion Condor", bailed out safely, and became a POW.€

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/pol39/pol39.htm


Polish pilots shooting Germans in parachutes
€œThere were two Poles in 151 Squadron, Frank Czaijkowski and a Sergeant Gmur who spoke little English and was shot down and killed. There was also a Czech pilot. Their flying skills were exemplary.
They hated [the Germans]. Absolutely hated them. In fact, I understand once or twice when Germans were shot down in parachutes they were shot at, but then the Germans would shoot any of us, which was why we were all told, "If you do have a chance, don't bail out, crash land your aeroplane.€
http://www.war-experience.org/collections/air/alliedbrit/ellacombe/index.html



GERMAN SHOOTING BRITISH PILOT IN PARACHUTE:
1. €œS/Ldr Starr: He joined 253 Squadron a few days before he was shot down and killed while descending by parachute on 31 August 1940€

2. €œAt about 18.30 hours, RAF Sergeant A. W. Wooley was piloting Hawker Hurricane No P3681 of 601 Squadron. Whilst engaging a Heinkel 111 off the Isle of Wight, his gravity fuel tank was hit and set alight by return fire. According to eyewitnesses, Sergeant Wooley baled out high above Freshwater and as he drifted towards Thorness he was machine-gunned by an enemy fighter. Luckily he survived but his parachute harness was almost cut through by one of the bullets. His troubles were not quite over that day for he landed in cow-pats.€


3. One British plane brought down. Pilot baled out and was machine gunned by Germans:http://brew.clients.ch/GrndDiaries41.htm

Strafing downed pilot:

4. 30 November 1941, Sunday
€œOur boys went out looking for a fight and ran into a mixture of Italian and German aircraft. In the ensuing battle, we got eight enemy aircraft confirmed, with a probable 13. We lost three aircraft. One pilot, "Woof" Arthur still missing. Scotty shot down two, the guns must be working well!
Tiny Cameron crash landed in the desert and a German plane saw him and strafed him as he got out of his kite. He got out of it all with a few shrapnel cuts. "Winca" Pete Jeffries saw what was happening and drove off the enemy aircraft, landed in the desert next to Tiny, who ditched his parachute and climbed in with Pete and sat on his knee. Tiny is about 6'4", and Pete is about 6'0", so they can't close the cockpit hood.€
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Wi6XCJ-jOzsJ:www.3squadron.org.au/felix.htm+strafed+parachute&hl=en
5. €œGeorge Andrew Forsyth BUCHANAN, from Rhodesia. Forced to baled out over Malta on 17th May 1942, he was killed when an enemy fighter opened fire on his parachute.€http://website.lineone.net/~remosliema/airmen191570.htm

6. JG: When was your next action?
David: €œOn a Sunday, 11th August 1940, off Portland Bill. There were fuel tanks there and the Germans were trying to bomb them. We went after them and I shot down a Junkers Ju-88A. The Ju-88 could take a lot of punishment, and I had to really hit it. Then Me-109s attacked us and John R. ****, who had already downed a Ju88, got an Me-109 and two probables before he was shot down. He went to hospital that night because a fragment of his radio went into his arm, but he rejoined us in September.
Later on, while they were salvaging his Hurricane from the sea on 30th August, 1983, **** confirmed that I had shot down another airplane. I didn't know it. I had aimed at one of the 109s trying to shoot Johnny in his parachute-it's awful to see a 109 trying to shoot a man in his parachute. It was hardly a one-second burst, but it must have been deadly, because he saw that chap crash straight into the sea, 10 miles southeast of Portland.
The Germans did damage to the port, but not major damage. We'd try to get their leaders if we could, but it was always a matter of getting in a shot or two while you could, then you upped your neck and got in a dogfight with a 109 determined to kill you.€
http://www.thehistorynet.com/bh/blluftwaffeincrosshair/index1.html


BRITISH SHOOTING ITALIAN PILOT IN PARACHUTE:

€œOne of the fighters shot down was indeed a CR.42 of the 412a Squadriglia, the pilot being badly wounded; he is believed to have been Tenente Luigi De Pol, who later died in hospital. The second aircraft lost was a CR.32 (the last available in Eritrea) from which the pilot, Tenente Bossi, baled out. However, it was reported that he was machine gunned in his parachute by a Hurricane, and on landing was rushed to hospital where an arm and a leg was amputated, but he died shortly afterwards.€

Grisha7
03-08-2005, 06:34 PM
It's hard to say how any of us would act in this particular scenario. However, if you gun down pilots hanging from their 'chutes you may be inviting reprisals when the tables are turned, thereby actually endandering the lives of your fellow airmen.

Korolov
03-08-2005, 06:36 PM
My take on it, is if I've shot down a enemy pilot, and he lands in my territory or has virtually no chance of rejoining his forces, there is no need to take his life.

But if he's got certain chance of making it back to his forces, ask yourself: do you really want him to come back some other day, shoot you down and then strafe YOU running from your plane? Even worse, what if he shoots down a ton of your buddies and then kills all of them?

Sorry to say this, but chivalry died a very long time ago. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a place, but you simply cannot expect chivalrous actions to win a war.

"War doesn't determine who's right - only who's left."

Grisha7
03-08-2005, 06:36 PM
I actually meant "endangering" not "endandering" - though that could be bad too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Grisha7
03-08-2005, 06:37 PM
That should be 'endangering' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

himura108
03-08-2005, 06:49 PM
First i didnt mean that it didnt happen at all, just meant that it wasnt as usuall at that time.
Second if i missed some part of the history, id be gratefull if you could add some info about sources that i didnt find.

blakduk
03-08-2005, 07:26 PM
Wow- so chivalry was alive and well until the barbarian americans arrived!

mortoma
03-08-2005, 07:32 PM
In offline campaigns I always ( if I get the chance ) shoot enemy AI in their chute if they are above their own territory. Dgen keeps track of the numbers and levels of all AI pilots so it only makes sense. So I do it for the same reason they did in real life, I don't have to face as many AI pilots the next sortie. Fortunately, since they are just digital reps of people, I can do so without remorse!! Hehe http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

blakduk
03-08-2005, 07:44 PM
One of the many reasons why war should be avoided at all costs- its about killing people. The vast majority of combatants start their campaigns with ideas of 'codes of honour', chivalry, protecting the innocent etc. These invariably fade away with the horrors of real war. History is littered with examples of disciplined, honourable forces degenerating into murderous hordes over the course of a conflict.
War may start out with ideas of fairness, but it usually doesnt take long for it to become about survival and brutality.
Combat fliers on all sides had examples of the nobility of their side versus the craven nature of their opponent. Usually thats because God was on their side!

Saburo_0
03-08-2005, 10:48 PM
blakduk put it well.

War is a horrible horrible thing. The scars on the survivors persist through generations.

Now if no-one ever died & the consequence of losing was nil....then it would be a game.

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