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minb
03-29-2006, 12:07 AM
Due to hardware related problems ("low frame rate" discussion at Comunity help) I have turned to playing Battle of Britain 2: Wings of Victory instead. Does anyone have an idea when will the Il2 engine be able to display large formations as in BoB2.
It occoured to me, while reading historical articles and books, that formations depicted in Il2 to PF are highly unrealistic. Look at Pearl Harbour missions for example. In reality there should be hundreds of planes coming in waves. Instead you get a couple of flights above couple of ships and not a full packed dockyard.
That is probably why AAA is so deadly in these games, because they have so few targets to shoot at.
I guess today's hardware isn't up to the challenge.
Don't know how Maddox presumes to recreate the Blitz in BoB with 1000 planes in the air over London + barrage balloons and reflectors.
Your oppinions on this would be welcome.

Capt.LoneRanger
03-29-2006, 12:43 AM
AAA is a hughe problem, especially online. But please remember, this engine is based on a design from '99. BoB will be a complete rebuild.

IIRC it was said, that there will be more than 200 a/c involved in combat at a time, presumably more, cause as you allready stated especially bomber-groups usually came in waves.

As to AAA, we can only guess. Let's hope there will be a presentation and dev-updates during and after this years E3.

minb
03-29-2006, 12:46 AM
Only I have heard that the later PF updates that are coming close to BoB are more hardware demanding. If that is true, how can it handle even more planes and stuff?

minb
03-29-2006, 12:51 AM
And also: as I understand it, the BoB is an upgrade of the il2 engine.
Or is it a complete new engine that will handle more planes and if so, on the expense of what (damage model, plane physics, our wallets due to the need of buying new hardware that will handle the new engine)?

B16Enk
03-29-2006, 03:08 AM
BoB:WoV does indeed pull off the large formation trick, however this is done by simplifying the flight model for the AI hordes.

This is particularly noticeable when you see them manoeuvre along way points and in response to attack.

Which I find to be highly unrealistic too.

Trade-offs have to be made, the processing power we have today is impressive but still not without limit!

Good point on the AA http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

minb
03-29-2006, 03:52 AM
if the AAA is modelled as acurate as the airplanes, then this indeed makes the game harder to play
and the simplification in BoB2:WoV is indeed noticeable
just compare shooting holes in a plane in BoB2:WoV and in Il2 games: there simply is no comparison: I perticularly like bits flying of shredded planes in Maddox games

Feathered_IV
03-29-2006, 04:23 AM
I wonder... Currently each burst of AAA is aimed and fired by a gun on the ground and each gun takes up CPU cycles or whatever as it operates. What if flack bursts or rather, an area of flack bursts could be placed over any area like a recon bubble in FMB. They activate when planes approach that space and spark and bang and hurt you if you fly too close to one as per usual. But they require less cpu time than the type we have now for trying to simulate a barrage.

minb
03-29-2006, 04:34 AM
Something will have to be done for BoB, otherwise the game won't run on PCs from 2009, let alone 2007 or 2006.
Something will have to be done in order to relieve the CPU since more aircraft will be in the air.

Blutarski2004
03-29-2006, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by minb:
just compare shooting holes in a plane in BoB2:WoV and in Il2 games: there simply is no comparison: I perticularly like bits flying of shredded planes in Maddox games


..... shredded bits of airframe go back a long way - IIRC, LucasArts featured it in TFH, SWOTL, etc.

Blutarski2004
03-29-2006, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I wonder... Currently each burst of AAA is aimed and fired by a gun on the ground and each gun takes up CPU cycles or whatever as it operates. What if flack bursts or rather, an area of flack bursts could be placed over any area like a recon bubble in FMB. They activate when planes approach that space and spark and bang and hurt you if you fly too close to one as per usual. But they require less cpu time than the type we have now for trying to simulate a barrage.


..... Give that man a cigar. Brilliant idea, at least for the heavy AA. Same system could be used to portray anything from a single gun all the way up to a complete box barrage.

This idea ought to be immediately directed to the proper authorities.

Airmail109
03-29-2006, 12:31 PM
Well they could code some parts of the game to the new Ageia Physics procesing unit (which is far faster at cruching numbers than any CPU) such as flak, shrapnel, the dynamic water etc, and really try to optimise for dual or even quad core machines (If they can do that succesfully they could make use of effective 2x plus as much processing power) That or the CPU manufacturers are gonna have to seriously increase the operating speeds of there CPUS instead of being lazy and adding new cores.

The code for this game will have to be freaking perfect to get it to run smootly, no short cutting or shoddy coding. I think this is the reason why BOB is taking so long to develope.

Or they could just code it for a PS3 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Means theyd have to swap to linux, maybe not a bad thing.

Tully__
03-29-2006, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by minb:
And also: as I understand it, the BoB is an upgrade of the il2 engine.
Or is it a complete new engine that will handle more planes and if so, on the expense of what (damage model, plane physics, our wallets due to the need of buying new hardware that will handle the new engine)?
It's new from the ground up.

In order to cope with large numbers of aircraft a number of strategies will be employed. At least initially (until home/game PC's have a chance to catch up a bit) one of the sacrifices will be fewer aircraft types. For the initial release at least I believe the current plan is for less than 20 (possibly less than 10) flyable types though I've not seen an update on that for some time.

One of the means used by some older games (I have EAW in mind) is to treat a formation as a single aircraft for the purposes of flight model calculations. Only when the formation fragments does the PC have to do FM calcs for every aircraft individually. For EAW it worked fine as far as it went, but the "rules" for a formation fragmented were a little odd. You'd often seen 10 or 12 entirely healthy aircraft "limp" down to treetop level because one aircraft in the formation was damaged, only breaking off at the last moment before crashing.

woofiedog
03-29-2006, 01:55 PM
minb... have you tried UberDemon yet?

I've been running with 100 - 120 aircraft in the air... Extremely Mint program.

Link: http://www.uberdemon.com/

minb
03-29-2006, 11:15 PM
minb... have you tried UberDemon yet?

It looks great on paper, I'll try and see if my rig can cope with larger formations.
...I doubt it will (see my "low frame rates" plead for help at Community help).

woofiedog
03-30-2006, 01:44 AM
You can adjust for any number of aircraft or aircraft combo's such as glider and Mistel set-ups... and there are also adjustments for computer levels, ground objects, maps and etc.

The directions are straight forward and fairly easy to follow.
Overall 100% better than the QMB in the game.

polak5
03-30-2006, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I wonder... Currently each burst of AAA is aimed and fired by a gun on the ground and each gun takes up CPU cycles or whatever as it operates. What if flack bursts or rather, an area of flack bursts could be placed over any area like a recon bubble in FMB. They activate when planes approach that space and spark and bang and hurt you if you fly too close to one as per usual. But they require less cpu time than the type we have now for trying to simulate a barrage.

that sounds soo simple it just might work! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Feathered_IV
03-30-2006, 02:51 AM
Maybe someone with a direct line to the Powers That Be could suggest it to them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The whole recon-bubble thing has plenty of scope for variation. Another nice one would be a placeable, 'skip to next mission/map while bypassing briefing screens' bubble. This would efectively make the entire FB series one gigantic map.

NonWonderDog
03-30-2006, 09:03 AM
I've run upwards of 100 biplanes at once on the previous incarnation of my system:

Athlon XP 2200+
768 Mb RAM
GeForce Ti 4200

It ran perfectly. Upgrading those biplanes to 1940's fighters brought my computer to its knees, but the huge biplane furball went without a hitch. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have no idea how well this works post 4.00.

p-11.cAce
03-30-2006, 09:12 AM
UberDemon is awesome - that software restarted my interest in offline play http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif I have never attempted running more than 20 or so a/c but have never encountered any slowdowns or REALLY low framerates - anyway is this really a software issue? I personally would rather spend a bit more money on good hardware than play a dumbed down sim!

SATAN_23rd
03-30-2006, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Well they could code some parts of the game to the new Ageia Physics procesing unit (which is far faster at cruching numbers than any CPU) such as flak, shrapnel, the dynamic water etc, and really try to optimise for dual or even quad core machines (If they can do that succesfully they could make use of effective 2x plus as much processing power) That or the CPU manufacturers are gonna have to seriously increase the operating speeds of there CPUS instead of being lazy and adding new cores.

The code for this game will have to be freaking perfect to get it to run smootly, no short cutting or shoddy coding. I think this is the reason why BOB is taking so long to develope.

Or they could just code it for a PS3 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Means theyd have to swap to linux, maybe not a bad thing.

Speaking of Quad core computing here is my purely theoretical super computer to run IL2FB+AEP+PF

Quad Core Mac G5 2.5ghz dual cores
2 ATI X1900XTX's
2-8gb of ram
the Ultra fast 1.5ghz FSB
AND
an Aegia Physics processor.

I have a feeling that would run the game fairly well and I wouldnt need to have an extra PC around just for gaming. Plus, I could run it on my 30 inch HD Cinema display.

SATAN_23rd
03-30-2006, 10:28 AM
As an addition to my above post.

I do wish Mac's were more considered when game/hardware developers made their decisions.

Irish_Rogues
03-30-2006, 11:49 AM
Unless I'm totally off-base isn't this game more of a "squad level" flight sim? As such even if you were involved in a couple to a few hundred plane battle your squadron would only be involved in a small section of the battle. You'd never be in position to see all several hundred planes at once and I think that alone alleviates part of the problems being envisioned.

Even later in the war, let alone early, 1,000 plane formations were the exception rather then the rule. Most big bomber formations were a few hundred planes. Now I'm going to really test my middle aged mush that serves as my memory, but during BoB most of the battle was a series of a 100 to a few hundred plane raids spread over a large area, even on the really high German sortie days. If I'm off-base I'm sure some off our astute colleagues will refresh my memory.

WTE_Galway
03-30-2006, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Irish_Rogues:
Unless I'm totally off-base isn't this game more of a "squad level" flight sim? As such even if you were involved in a couple to a few hundred plane battle your squadron would only be involved in a small section of the battle. You'd never be in position to see all several hundred planes at once and I think that alone alleviates part of the problems being envisioned.

Even later in the war, let alone early, 1,000 plane formations were the exception rather then the rule. Most big bomber formations were a few hundred planes. Now I'm going to really test my middle aged mush that serves as my memory, but during BoB most of the battle was a series of a 100 to a few hundred plane raids spread over a large area, even on the really high German sortie days. If I'm off-base I'm sure some off our astute colleagues will refresh my memory.



You are correct .. even during the "blitz" on London, raids were only a few hundred bombers with total bombs dropped usually well under 200 tons .. though a lot of those were incendiaries.


I presume there is no intention to model the fires.


As far as processors and graphics cards go the problem is the "lowest common denominator" the cash strapped kid or married guy running an older machine is often the person most likely to wind the graphics up, load a 100 plane mission, and then post a "this game sucks" review online. Most games do not cater for the true enthusiast prepared to keep his machine up to date.

minb
03-31-2006, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by woofiedog:
minb... have you tried UberDemon yet?

I've been running with 100 - 120 aircraft in the air... Extremely Mint program.

Link: http://www.uberdemon.com/

Is there anything like this for the original Il2? The thing is: since it's an old game and still looks great, maybe my system could cope with larger battles.
My guess is, with no Dynamic Campaign in the stock game, there isn't one.

Tully__
04-01-2006, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by minb:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by woofiedog:
minb... have you tried UberDemon yet?

I've been running with 100 - 120 aircraft in the air... Extremely Mint program.

Link: http://www.uberdemon.com/

Is there anything like this for the original Il2? The thing is: since it's an old game and still looks great, maybe my system could cope with larger battles.
My guess is, with no Dynamic Campaign in the stock game, there isn't one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
UberQuick Mission Generator was originally developed for the original IL2 Sturmovik, as was Dynamic Campaign Generator (by Starshoy?). If you can find old versions of them they'll both work perfectly well with the original game. IIRC the current version of UQMG will too, provided you're careful to only select aircraft included in the original game.

woofiedog
04-01-2006, 06:20 AM
I might be wrong... but you should be able to download and have both the Older Version of UberDemon and also have the the New Version on the same Rig.

The maps might also be a problem as far as the orginal Sturmovik go's.

A good quesion for UberDemon.

woofiedog
04-01-2006, 11:29 AM
Here is the answer UberDemon so Kindly gave as far as having the UberDemon UQMG set-up for both the Orginal IL-2 Sturmovik and the IL-2 FB/AE/PF...


Posted Apr 1, 10:24 AM
woofiedog,

Not really, however there are a couple of things you can do... (the second choice is the preferred one)

* First - Using UQMG with the original IL-2 Sturmovik only:
Keep your installation of UQMG as is, then go to:
- In main UQMG interface select "Tools" Menu, then select "Change/Select FB/PF Location". Then point it to the IL-2 Sturmovik location. You may need to restart UQMG.
- CAUTION1: IL-2 does not have a lot of the features that FB/AEP/PF have, so not everything will work, for example, Frontline, so you need to be sure you use only objects that are present in IL-2. If you are using Windows XP you will be able to manage this process through the Ground Editor, but it can be a pain, because a lot of the original maps in IL-2, I designed their templates after FB and AEP came out, so they have features that are more advanced than in IL2... to make a long story short, the mission may simply not load in IL-2 unless you carefully pick the available features.
- CAUTION2: To use UQMG with PF+FB+AEP again, you need to repeat the first step and pint UQMG back to the original location where FB/PF is. You may need to restart UQMG.

- Solution 2 - THE PREFERRED SOLUTION: Use UQMG to transfer all the original missions from IL-2 to FB/AEP/PF (If you have IL-2 installed in the same PC/HDD as FB - this way you need to basically prove you have a license for IL-2
- Step 1 - Select the "UQMM" Mission Manager button in UQMG, now look at the big Green button in the bottom of the interface that says "Copy Stock Missions from Original IL-2 up to 1.2 into FB+AEP+PF", now click the yellow "?" button right by it... what you see below is what you will read:

************
lay Missions From Original "IL-2 Sturmovik" Into FB/AEP
================================================== ==============

As an owner of the previous IL-2 Sturmovik I miss the stock missions that came with the boxed version, and the additional missions that came with the updates up to version 1.2. Il-2 is still a separate product so only owners of both FB/AEP and Il-2 should play missions from the original product in FB, and the original missions should not be available for download. We should all do our part to support Oleg.

For this reason I created a script that transfers IL-2 Sturmovik's Single Play, Coop and original static Campaigns to FB/AEP so that you can enjoy them all with new graphic features and superior engine. The only way you can use this script is if you are a legal owner of the licenses for both Il-2 Sturmovik and Forgotten Battles. Both products must be installed in the same PC, and in some instances, in the same drive. The script will check the Windows registry for the correct information on IL-2 Sturmovik, and if that fails, the script will need to find IL-2 Sturmovik in the same letter drive/partition as the FB/AEP installation; if these conditions are not met, the script will not work.

If the script succeeds, the following will happen, with varied results depending on whether you have one or more of the updates from UbiSoft for IL-2 Sturmovik. Assuming you have every update up to version 1.2, you will get the following:

* Original Fighter Static Campaign for Germany
* Original Fighter Static Campaign for USSR
* Original Bomber/Ground-Attack Static Campaign for USSR
* Addon Bi-1 Static Mini Campaign by Luthier (from Add-on)
* "(Il-2) Coop" folder with the original 5 Coop missions
* SP "(Il-2) Normandie-Nieman" folder for France (The script adds the France
country folder and makes if available in SP, if not present. Originally
these missions were available from the USSR country in SP.)
* SP "(Il-2) Bf-109E7Z" folder for Germany (from Add-on)
* SP "(Il-2) Bf-109G-6" folder for Germany
* SP "(Il-2) FW-190A-4" folder for Germany
* SP "(Il-2) FW-190A-5" folder for Germany (from Add-on)
* SP "(Il-2) Ju-87B-2" folder for Germany (from Add-on)
* SP "(Il-2) IL-2" folder for USSR
* SP "(Il-2) MiG-3U" folder for USSR
* SP "(Il-2) Yak-9" folder for USSR (from Add-on)

Notes:
==========
* Again, if you did not install some of the updates, you may not get the Bi-1 Campaign, or any other set of missions from official add-ons.

* "all.ini" files are NOT overwritten. The script is intelligent enough to merge the necessary campaign information into an existing "all.ini" file IF it is necessary.

* Dogfight missions are not necessary because all DF missions from IL-2 were included in FB, plus additional arenas as well.

* You will NOT get any custom missions from your previous version of IL-2, or any third party mission packs. These need to be transferred manually, and most can be installed directly into FB.
************

So that is pretty easy right?

Also, look at the other features of UQMM, you can play any existing mission in FB/PF/AEP from the enemy perspective (with adjusted objectives) or in any other flyable plane... did you know you could do that? You can even play a Coop mission only as a single player... and it create 3 versions of the original mission, just like in UQMG, one for SP, one for Coop, and one for DF... the feature is so neat that if you picked a carrier mission, UQMM would create a DF version of the mission with a static carriers so you could spawn from it.

Best Regards,
Demon/UberDemon
Get UQMG (UberQuick Mission Generator for PF/FB) for Free at www.uberdemon.com (http://www.uberdemon.com)

woofiedog
04-01-2006, 11:42 AM
Tully__ or other Mod...

This is Excellent information for people still using the Orginal IL-2 Sturmovik.

Could this be saved some how or stickyed?

Thank's