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tehz0mgbie
11-12-2010, 09:26 PM
I often find myself wondering. How would an assassin function outside in todays world without using a gun. Using nothing but sniper rifles wouldn't make for a very good game that's supposed to be in this format (so for the sake of this discussion leave the sniper rifles out).

But how do the rest of you think a modern day assassin would work his magic without a sniper rifle?

High profile individuals such as world and religious leaders are surrounded in security. Also if you were able to get a close, a simple hood isn't gonna keep them from getting a profile of you. So do you think face altering make-up is in order? Perhaps rubber cheeks and noses, fake moles.

Once you have anonymity figured out how do you do the deed? Maybe use a walking cane with a spring loaded poison dart (quiet, fast, unsuspecting) throwing knives?

Or imagine an assassin wanting to get close enough for a dagger or hidden blade. It would not only be difficult to get past a crowd, but security would stop you, even if you were skilled enough to fight them all off by then your target is in a car and gone. Maybe this is where parkour comes in. Hide ontop of the awning, behind the lights, drop down and kill your target.

Of course then there's the escape. (again the hood is useless IRL and would fall off too quickly in a real fight) Again parkour might come in handy but if you're in (for example) downtown Denver with many high rises that wont help too much.

But yeah, anybody else have any thoughts?
Perhaps ideas here could make it into a game?

Nick1021
11-12-2010, 09:31 PM
Well you would need a distraction.
1. Hire a sniper and become a bodyguard. Have the sniper just sit in a window and fire while the president has a speech. At the mean time, you will act as if you notice the sniper and jump in front of the president. And have a blade on the back of your shoe, so as you jump you stab him(making it look like a bullet would be hard).

GREAZY_FINGAZZ
11-12-2010, 09:34 PM
Once you have anonymity figured out how do you do the deed? Maybe use a walking cane with a spring loaded poison dart (quiet, fast, unsuspecting)
I know what I wanna make.

ninja_7_7
11-12-2010, 09:50 PM
Silenced pistol first of all. Sub-sonic too. Or knife but prefer pistol. Study my target for weeks upon months. Count the body guards, his whole staff. Try to infiltrate that. Use poison most likely or empty syringe with air since it is mostly undetectable. I would just study his schedule and wait for my chance.

RandomRansom
11-12-2010, 10:04 PM
Well, I think this would need to incorporate an idea I posted in another forum. There would have to be a major use of "costume" changes to fully use blending and social stealth. However, I'm not even sure that would be enough to explain away the use of a silenced pistol as an extremely useful assassination tool.

I'm sure one could steal from Hitman and use metal detectors as a way to get the player to discard all firearms. Maybe the Hidden Blade of 2010-2012 is made of something that doesn't set off metal detectors (like porcelain or some Kevlar composite or something). But then why not just use a gun that doesn't set off the metal detector.

I know people are going to jump down my throat for mentioning this, but some modern day Ninja are taught to use ANYTHING as a weapon. Your umbrella is a weapon. Your two AA batteries taped together are a weapon. That jump-rope is a weapon. Use your wallet thrown into the air as a weapon to distract a mugger just long enough to step on his or her knee and throw a right hook. And none of those objects will make you look conspicuous or even suspicious if someone is found dead.

Not saying AC should go that route, but it would be an interesting way to utilize things other than guns... and not be the conspicuous guy carrying around the long sword in a modern period.

If you want to hear or even post more ideas about ACIII you should go to that specific thread. Apparently the ideas there get read by people at Ubi. Read some of my ideas in regard to disguises and a kind of camouflage for more advanced blending and such here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...24/m/6831010868/p/13 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/6831010868/p/13) Top two posts, basically.

My ideas have become more refined and well thought out since then, but it's a good brief description.

DeafAtheist
11-12-2010, 10:14 PM
The easy answer would be it would come off much like Hitman I think. Blending in by changing clothing and trying to make assassinations look like accidents or poisoning and getting out before bodies drop.

obliviondoll
11-12-2010, 11:45 PM
Why aren't you allowed to use a gun?

Assassins never had that as a rule, they've always used contemporary ranged weapons in the games so far.

There appears to be a preference so far for face-to-face assassination when it comes to high profile targets - but if your assassin is good, they can avoid suspicion easily enough.

Also, how about you give him a modified silenced pistol that fires 7.62 bullets (the standard type used by most sniper rifles internationally these days) at a low velocity? When he hits the target at point-blank from being a member of the security team, it'll look like it was an extreme-long-range silenced sniper. He could glance up, point, then dive on the target, pull the gun while everyone's looking for the killer, fire a shot into the guy's heart, and claim he was too late.

DeafAtheist
11-13-2010, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
Why aren't you allowed to use a gun?

Assassins never had that as a rule, they've always used contemporary ranged weapons in the games so far.

There appears to be a preference so far for face-to-face assassination when it comes to high profile targets - but if your assassin is good, they can avoid suspicion easily enough.

Also, how about you give him a modified silenced pistol that fires 7.62 bullets (the standard type used by most sniper rifles internationally these days) at a low velocity? When he hits the target at point-blank from being a member of the security team, it'll look like it was an extreme-long-range silenced sniper. He could glance up, point, then dive on the target, pull the gun while everyone's looking for the killer, fire a shot into the guy's heart, and claim he was too late.

Nice idea. Unfortunately unrealistic tho. First of all modifying a handgun to fire such a large round is itself unrealistic. The shell is just too large for a handgun and silencing it would be impossible even if it could be done.

But even in suspending disbelief enough to suit that idea modern forensics would be able to tell the bullet's trajectory and ballistics would be able to tell from the markings on the bullet that it wasn't fired from a sniper.

But it IS a video game and plenty about Assassin's Creed is already unrealistic like the modified gun in the hidden blade and the animus itself. Not to mention leaps of faith from hundreds of feet in the air into relatively small piles of hay. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

obliviondoll
11-13-2010, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
Nice idea. Unfortunately unrealistic tho. First of all modifying a handgun to fire such a large round is itself unrealistic. The shell is just too large for a handgun and silencing it would be impossible even if it could be done.

But even in suspending disbelief enough to suit that idea modern forensics would be able to tell the bullet's trajectory and ballistics would be able to tell from the markings on the bullet that it wasn't fired from a sniper.

But it IS a video game and plenty about Assassin's Creed is already unrealistic like the modified gun in the hidden blade and the animus itself. Not to mention leaps of faith from hundreds of feet in the air into relatively small piles of hay. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Putting a full 7.62 shell wouldn't work, which is why I said just to have a handgun firing the bullet itself at low velocity. A large part of those big shells is the propellant which fires the bullet. Loading a low-velocity version for use at point blank wouldn't take nearly as much space.

And if you know what they'll be looking for, you can put some of the necessary marking on the bullet before it's fired to either make it look more like it's fired from a sniper, or at least to make it less obvious what it was fired from.

Also, firing from literally on top of your target would let you put the bullet in on whatever angle you want, and firing at low velocity from that distance would give a similar ballistic pattern to an extreme range shot from a conventional weapon firing the same projectile.

DeafAtheist
11-13-2010, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
Putting a full 7.62 shell wouldn't work, which is why I said just to have a handgun firing the bullet itself at low velocity. A large part of those big shells is the propellant which fires the bullet. Loading a low-velocity version for use at point blank wouldn't take nearly as much space.

And if you know what they'll be looking for, you can put some of the necessary marking on the bullet before it's fired to either make it look more like it's fired from a sniper, or at least to make it less obvious what it was fired from.

Also, firing from literally on top of your target would let you put the bullet in on whatever angle you want, and firing at low velocity from that distance would give a similar ballistic pattern to an extreme range shot from a conventional weapon firing the same projectile.

Can't argue much with that. Sure I could say it's still unrealistic, but the way you put it suspends disbelief enough to make it work believably for a video game.

obliviondoll
11-13-2010, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
Can't argue much with that. Sure I could say it's still unrealistic, but the way you put it suspends disbelief enough to make it work believably for a video game.
I'm not saying it's something anyone would do, but there is a way to explain why it would work.

In a theoretical sense at least, everything I described would be possible. Much of it would be expensive or complicated enough to be impractical at best though. Luckily, game logic is allowed to gloss over those parts just a bit.

PhiIs1618033
11-13-2010, 02:26 AM
You'd have to figure out a way to keep of gunpowder traces before that plan would work.

obliviondoll
11-13-2010, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by PhiIs1618033...:
You'd have to figure out a way to keep of gunpowder traces before that plan would work.
Why? They're not likely to be checking the security guards for gunpowder traces when it looks fairly clear that the shot came from long range.

That's half the reason this plan is brilliant. :P

lilbacchant
11-13-2010, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhiIs1618033...:
You'd have to figure out a way to keep of gunpowder traces before that plan would work.
Why? They're not likely to be checking the security guards for gunpowder traces when it looks fairly clear that the shot came from long range.

That's half the reason this plan is brilliant. :P </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what he means is that firing the gun from that close would leave explosive-discharge residue on the victim, making it readily apparent that the shooter was nearby.

It is a cool idea though. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(Even if I hope it isn't used in AC3 because I want guns kept to a severe minimum.)

Mic_92
11-13-2010, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by ninja_7_7:
Silenced pistol first of all. Sub-sonic too. Or knife but prefer pistol. Study my target for weeks upon months. Count the body guards, his whole staff. Try to infiltrate that. Use poison most likely or empty syringe with air since it is mostly undetectable. I would just study his schedule and wait for my chance.

Silenced pistols actually still make lots of noise, it's not like in the movies where you hear a little whisper.

Seriously though, Assassin's would just use guns. Why should they risk their lives having to stab the target while they could just shoot him from far away.

obliviondoll
11-14-2010, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by lilbacchant:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhiIs1618033...:
You'd have to figure out a way to keep of gunpowder traces before that plan would work.
Why? They're not likely to be checking the security guards for gunpowder traces when it looks fairly clear that the shot came from long range.

That's half the reason this plan is brilliant. :P </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what he means is that firing the gun from that close would leave explosive-discharge residue on the victim, making it readily apparent that the shooter was nearby.

It is a cool idea though. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(Even if I hope it isn't used in AC3 because I want guns kept to a severe minimum.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK. Fine. Air-propelled bullet from a 7.62 shell. (EDIT: Clarification - not actually loading the whole shell - a bullet with the casing stripped, because that's all you need)

This "sneaky sneaky" stuff is harder than I expected. All you forensics experts spoiling all my plans...

vragende
11-14-2010, 09:25 AM
Ask Russia.

Shadowchsr79
11-14-2010, 09:56 AM
I think you guys are worrying a little to much about misdirrection. Seriously, the whole bullet trick thing is starting to sound like a spin off of mission impossible. once the assassination is complete, it doesn't matter if your cover is blown. It's almost always blown in the game once you take care of your target. Aside from working out more than one means to escape, the manner of kill shouldn't really matter. In modern day it would be harder to get close to high profile targets but there are opportunities because no security is perfect, especially when they are traveling or at a social event. There are too many factors to account for to not find some kind of loophole and if they don't see who's given that killing blow, like a delay with poison or a small but deadly blade that takes time before people know something is wrong it's possible. and with the addition of teams in Brotherhood, who's to say in the modern era that assassin teams won't work there as well. Lucy does mention that they work in teams.

One flaw with the air bubble in a syringe is that it has to be in a vein or artery. if it's just under the skin, it won't do any good. Insulin would be a better choice, your body naturally produces it, it can mimic other natural causes and doesn't need to hit a vein.

kegs_11
11-15-2010, 03:58 AM
first you need a white hoody, one with the eagle stylee hood and a kangaroo pouch (more in a sec)

there is a company called bladerunner.tv who do lightweight slash proof kevlar t shirts and clothing, not enough to stop a gunshot at close range but handy as just extra protection

a pair of comfy jeans, as you cant go free running in skinny/tight jeans now can you? (dont want them tearing now revealing your AC logo themed undies)

a good grippy pair of trainers

a pair of rock climbing gloves, for scaling whatever buildings in your way today

so thats your clothes sorted, now equipment-
your trusty hidden blade. maybe different in design to make it more compact. ive heard of a poison on tv thats instant acting and breaks down undetectable in the blood. (if anyone saw the krays whitechapel episode youll know what im on about)

in the kangaroo pocket a small silenced firearm. doesnt matter what cal, but a small firearm thats self silenced. im not a gun ***** but im sure if the assassins figured out hidden blades in 1191, a small silenced handgun is plausible in 2010

youre going to need a combat knife, about 8 inch blade, preferably bowie either concealed sideways along your lower back near your belt or blade style down your back but underneath your hoodie obviously. hand to hand combat with the hidden blade can lead to damage (lineage ref.)

and then a few throwing knives maybe also hidden in the kangaroo pouch or by your ankle (not convenient but you have them at least) and also a few smoke bombs in a small pouch that can be put on your belt. Oh and maybe a first aid kit if youre clumsy.

tehz0mgbie
12-15-2010, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
Why aren't you allowed to use a gun?

Assassins never had that as a rule, they've always used contemporary ranged weapons in the games so far.

There appears to be a preference so far for face-to-face assassination when it comes to high profile targets - but if your assassin is good, they can avoid suspicion easily enough.

Also, how about you give him a modified silenced pistol that fires 7.62 bullets (the standard type used by most sniper rifles internationally these days) at a low velocity? When he hits the target at point-blank from being a member of the security team, it'll look like it was an extreme-long-range silenced sniper. He could glance up, point, then dive on the target, pull the gun while everyone's looking for the killer, fire a shot into the guy's heart, and claim he was too late.

well yes, there are silenced weapons, and hand guns capable of completing the objective. But then you loose the ability to prove to the secret history books that your order did the deed. Who's to say another sniper was waiting for the chance, you took it, and they got arrested, lets say the assassin order cant prove you did it, and so histories most important man was killed by a random radicalist thug.

Now granted there are some situations in which a sniper mission is important, but honestly how fun would that be for a game, find the right window, pull the trigger to the silenced weapon, walk away, you have a fake face, you change your clothes, and the color of your suitcase changes, the security cameras dont know it was you, and you walk out before anybody knows where the shot came from... sounds cool in text, but makes for a borring, short game

thats why i tried to mention a hidden blade must be feasible, speaking events exist on stage usually, take out a couple of body guards on the laddice work up where the lights are, drop down on your target

imagine someone speaking at... say... an indoor football stadium, your target is speaking dead center, you go thru the parking lot, maybe snip a few street light wires, disable a couple cameras, then scale the building (politicians/high end people can talk for hours) you find a maintenance shaft, sneek inside, find body guards, take them out silently... dont wanna spook the target, you make it to the balcony level, all lights are aiming down do even if somebody looks up, you are hidden, you make your way across the steel work, lower yourself down to a non lethal height, then drop, your target dies, a crowd sees but does not know who you are.. (at this time i imagine a bat-man like gun with a climbing anchor or finding another maintenance shaft under the stage out to the parking lot) your make your escape, take out a few more guards, either hop in a vehicle... or on, and bum your way to a safe point or assassin building...

cool huh?

ExprtAssassin
12-15-2010, 10:30 PM
Alright, a few things to various topics going on. 1. The silenced pistol idea. People you do realize that putting a suppressor on a firearm does nothing to reduce the noise from close distance. They use them to make it sound like something other than a gunshot. In vietnam, they had the nickname "hush puppies" because the Viet- cong had guard dogs, so they had to kill them, and make it sound like something else. So a suppressor at close range=nothing.

2. Even if you could suppress a shot, there would be powder burns on the skin from the gun powder. Nobody would overlook it, because they would do a full investigation on the topic.

3. If you got a 7.62 round and put in in a pistol, then there would be no way to suppress it. Handgun suppressors are made for 9mm, .45, .38 special/super, and a few other handgun rounds. NOT a high powered rifle round. Yeah, they have them on actual rifles with 28+ inch barrels, but not on a 7" pistol barrel.

All of this is from either experience, or research, or Discovery/military/history channel.

TheSpectator
12-15-2010, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by vragende:
Ask Russia.
lololololololololololol...........lol

BK-110
12-16-2010, 02:01 AM
Well, a modern AC game would likely span over quite some time, like ACII. It would likely require the Assassin to get into the targets closest circle or become a body guard.

The idea of using a hidden gun while pretending to protect the target would probably be pretty good. It could even work with another caliber, the Assassin would just have to get away before suspicion arises. Forensics shouldn't be a problem for a behind-the-scenes organization like the Assassins.

A female Assassin would likely have some advantages. After all, for an assassin the female body is a valuable tool when trying to get near a male target, if you know what I mean.

ZCherub
12-16-2010, 08:14 AM
Step 1: Go play the Hitman series instead of Assassin's Creed.

Step 2:???

Step 3: Profit

DrBlueDot
12-16-2010, 02:28 PM
yo first off it sounds like you guys are planning a hit on somebody...
secondly the one thing i want in an ac game especially since this is the last one, supposedly, is the ability to actually plan your assassinations, i know you are technically replaying memories but wouldnt it be cool to replay the part where you go about finding out how to actually get in and get back out, prefferably without having to pegg it from 4,000 guards after the dude is dropped like a sack o ****, Also by doing it up close and personal like a true assassin

sandmanssorrow
12-16-2010, 02:36 PM
So you get access to a drug that controls your targets actions so instead of killing the Prez, you waylay a bodyguard during his off time a week before the event, get close, administer the drug, do the brainwash deal then a week later , give him audible instructions through his bluetooth while your at a comfortable range. Headline reads: Bodyguard Traitor Bashes the Big Man.
Then we can have loads of lower notoriety inducing targets like, the Pope's Mom or Chef or whatever and have her poison his din dins etc.

Inorganic9_2
12-16-2010, 04:26 PM
I think that, first off, you need to do something like fake your own death; far too many organisations have stuff about us on record to be able to easily get away with things nowadays.

Awe1
12-16-2010, 04:36 PM
Well I don't know how it could be utilized as gameplay but the assassin in "the fall" comic has a rifle and there are references to guns being used by assassins and templars in ac1.

So as far as guns not being used by assassins that can be proven wrong through the story.

AcrobatEx
12-16-2010, 08:14 PM
I hate to do this to you tehz0mgbie, but you've all got a solid wall of logic coming your way.

The modern day Assassin, if he had to kill Templars to save the world, would not use a hidden blade. I was fairly disappointed when Vidic's thugs showed up at the hide out with police batons. I mean come on. The Templars had swords in Ezio's time, and Ezio had a sword. And besides, Ezio also HAD a gun. Let's face it. The definitive Assassin of our age is the sniper.

That being said, I'm fairly confident in Ubisoft's ability to implement the sniper rifle in their games, while still keeping other traditional weapons in place and important, and keeping the gameplay authentic and away from the "shooter" genre.
The sniper rifle is the practical assassin tool. And I'm positive that Ubisoft will be able to achieve that practicality and still maintain their Assassin's Creed originality.

ExprtAssassin
12-16-2010, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by DrBlueDot:
yo first off it sounds like you guys are planning a hit on somebody...
secondly the one thing i want in an ac game especially since this is the last one, supposedly, is the ability to actually plan your assassinations, i know you are technically replaying memories but wouldnt it be cool to replay the part where you go about finding out how to actually get in and get back out, prefferably without having to pegg it from 4,000 guards after the dude is dropped like a sack o ****, Also by doing it up close and personal like a true assassin

Oh ****! I thought that we were planning a hit! Oops, wrong forum sorry guys.

MCB280
12-16-2010, 10:18 PM
Desmond using guns it does not sound safe

tehz0mgbie
12-16-2010, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by ExprtAssassin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DrBlueDot:
yo first off it sounds like you guys are planning a hit on somebody...
secondly the one thing i want in an ac game especially since this is the last one, supposedly, is the ability to actually plan your assassinations, i know you are technically replaying memories but wouldnt it be cool to replay the part where you go about finding out how to actually get in and get back out, prefferably without having to pegg it from 4,000 guards after the dude is dropped like a sack o ****, Also by doing it up close and personal like a true assassin

Oh ****! I thought that we were planning a hit! Oops, wrong forum sorry guys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!!!
As for you AcrobatEx, you really havn't said anything that hasn't already been said...

MilsurpShooter
12-17-2010, 06:27 AM
Sadly as time and technologies change so would the method of which the assassin operates. With all the modern tools and technologies I wouldn't foresee the assassin's need to be anywhere near his target any longer. I'd hazard it would be more like a bond movie then anything else.

Target takes medicine? Hack and reroute the delivery to your place, slip a toxic pill in and ship it back out. Making a speech in an open area? automated, remote control turret operated from the comfort of your own home.

Shape charge in the cell phone (Law Abiding Citizen), electrical short in the laptop.

On the other hand, the lack of situational awareness and general observation skills by most people today would lend itself very well to an assassination as seen in this video game. For instance:

Place: NYC
Target: Lower level operative who commutes

Crowded train in the morning or evening, train problem of being locked in overridden by jostling past and getting him at one of the stop's.

When target leaves to go get lunch, lunch hour rush means a lot of people walking either with the crowd or against it. Many opportunities to bump into target.

Also plenty of opportunities to get groups to work with you. Get a faction like the cabbies or the street vendors to work with you and there's a lot of information you can gather lol.

tehz0mgbie
12-17-2010, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by MilsurpShooter:
Sadly as time and technologies change so would the method of which the assassin operates. With all the modern tools and technologies I wouldn't foresee the assassin's need to be anywhere near his target any longer. I'd hazard it would be more like a bond movie then anything else.

Target takes medicine? Hack and reroute the delivery to your place, slip a toxic pill in and ship it back out. Making a speech in an open area? automated, remote control turret operated from the comfort of your own home.

Shape charge in the cell phone (Law Abiding Citizen), electrical short in the laptop.

On the other hand, the lack of situational awareness and general observation skills by most people today would lend itself very well to an assassination as seen in this video game. For instance:

Place: NYC
Target: Lower level operative who commutes

Crowded train in the morning or evening, train problem of being locked in overridden by jostling past and getting him at one of the stop's.

When target leaves to go get lunch, lunch hour rush means a lot of people walking either with the crowd or against it. Many opportunities to bump into target.

Also plenty of opportunities to get groups to work with you. Get a faction like the cabbies or the street vendors to work with you and there's a lot of information you can gather lol.

LOL, the cabbie faction!!! Maybe hotdog vendor factions, but on a serious side that is awesome the way you thought of that, not all targets are at the top of the social food chain so that is a very likely scenario!!!

Spirited448
12-17-2010, 11:40 AM
Crossbow and throwing knifes, perhaps even a tasser. Guns are uncivilized i would prefer even today if it was all swords rather then guns, guns are for the weak

DrBlueDot
12-18-2010, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Spirited448:
Crossbow and throwing knifes, perhaps even a tasser. Guns are uncivilized i would [B]prefer even today if it was all swords rather then guns [B], guns are for the weak

I completely agree, with a gun anybody could win in a firefight due to dumb luck whilst if your a total newb with teh sword and your fighting a grand master, well suffice to say your screwed.