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RCAF_Irish_403
07-25-2006, 06:19 PM
Were the MiG 3's availible for use in the Russo-Finnish Winter War (1939-40) or did they enter service later?

thanks

*edit*...Wiki puts the introduction date as summer 1940, although i would trust any authority on the matter here over a Wiki entry http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BfHeFwMe
07-25-2006, 06:37 PM
Later, first operational units summer of 41.

woofiedog
07-25-2006, 10:11 PM
Mig-1 & 3...

Link: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/mig.html

The first MiG-1 and MiG-3 fighters were issued to combat units in April 1941. By 1 June thirteen regiments were completely equipped with them and six more were partially equipped. Another idea of the furious rate of production can be gathered from the fact that the MiGs comprised almost 90% of the modern fighters (Yak-1, LaGG-3, etc.) in service when the Germans invaded.

Link: http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-Tunnistus.html

Kocur_
07-26-2006, 10:40 AM
Mig-1 & 3...

Link: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/mig.html

I strongly suggest NOT to follow the above link, as the page has serious errors, like wrong dates for I-230 and I-231.

A very good source of info on MiG-3 (among others), also unlike above page having a bibligraphy, is:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/mig3.html#development

woofiedog
07-26-2006, 01:01 PM
Kocur_... I'm not to sure about your statment on the I-230 & I-231... Quote: I strongly suggest NOT to follow the above link, as the page has serious errors, like wrong dates for I-230 and I-231.

I do agree that the link below is a better source of info...

Link: http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/mig3/mig3.html

The MiG-1 was designed in response to a requirement for a fighter with inline engine perceived by the Soviet Air Force in January 1939. Initially the aircraft, named I-200, was designed in Polikarpov construction bureau.
Contrary to other competing designs: I-26 (Yak-1) and I-301 (LaGG-3), the I-200 successfully completed the state trials in August at the first attempt.

The designation MiG-3U was used for the I-230.

Two final prototypes, the I-230 and I-231 attempted to make the most of the original MiG-3 and its engine by considerable lightening of the aircraft, but with the type relegated to secondary units, the air force was simply not interested.

Mikoyan/Gurevich I-230 (MiG-3U)

With the primary objective of improving the aerodynamics of the basic MiG-3 design, the OKB began work late in 1941 on an
enhanced version of the fighter to which it gave the Izdeliye designation of D. Known officially as the I-230, and later as the MiG-3U - the suffix letter signifying uluchshenyi (improved) - the new fighter was first flown in August 1942. Whereas the fuselage of the MiG-3 was primarily of steel tube with duralumin skinning, that of the I-230 was almost entirely of wood owing to the contemporary metal shortages. By comparison with the MiG-3, the fuselage was lengthened by 37cm, but the Mikulin AM-35A engine was retained and the wing of the first prototype was unchanged, armament consisting of two 20mm SP-20 (ShVAK) cannon mounted above the engine. The second prototype differed in having a larger wing of 18.00m2 area and spanning 11.00m. Performance proved good during factory and state trials, but it was not possible to reinstate production of the AM-35A and production of the I-230 was therefore restricted to a pre-series of five aircraft which were assigned to a Guards Regiment (1 GvIAP) on the Kalinin front for service evaluation.

http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/russia/mig_i-230.jpg


Mikoyan/Gurevich I-231
fighter
1943

A third I-230 airframe was completed early in 1943 with a 1800hp Mikulin AM-39 12-cylinder Vee-type engine and the Izdeliye designation 2D. Apart from the tailplane which was set 20cm lower, this aircraft was basically similar to the first I-230 and retained the same armament of twin synchronised cannon. Assigned the official designation of I-231, the prototype was written off in a landing accident shortly after the completion of factory testing and further development was discontinued.

http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/russia/mig_i-231.jpg

Kocur_
07-26-2006, 01:31 PM
Only terribly outdated Soviet propaganda publications and sites based on it, give MiG-3U aka I-230 1942 date of first flight. Its characteristic, that sites to repeat it usually dont have bibliography.

Now the
http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/mig3/mig3.html#development
site or to be more exact:
http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/mig3/I-230.html

has the real history of I-230:

On February 26, 1943 the OKB was charged to develop an improved MiG-3 for the PVO, with the following requirements:

take off weight 3100 kg
top speed 670 km/h;
ceiling 12500 m;
climb time to 10,000 m 13 minutes.
The aircraft was called MiG-3U (uluchshennyi, improved).
To reach such goals, an accurate study of all the parts to save weight.
The main differences of the MiG-3U respect to the standard MiG-3 were:
the fuselage was leghtened and had no central welded truss, but it was an all-wooden monocoque structure with a plywood skin of 3 layers 1 mm thick in the wing centre section, and two layers in the tail (not a veneer skin like that of the basic MiG-3); this lightened and simplified the structure;
the cockpit was moved back and raised, and its canopy was widened and raised to improve visibility;
the main spar of the wing was no longer interrupted by the cooler tunnel;
main spars of the wing outer panels were no longer made of wood, but of metal;
flaps were fitted with lockers for extracted position;
wingtip position lights were moved;
the stabilizer and rudder were modified;
the horizontal tail surfaces were lifted 200 mm to avoid interference with the new tail wheel mechanism;
the main landing gear was reprojected with different doors and smaller wheels 600x180;
the armament was composed by two 20 mm ShVAK guns with 150 rounds each, placed over the nose and syncronized; they could fire both separately and in couple;
the P-310 water cooler was placed inside the fuselage, below the cockpit; its main air intakes were located in the wingroots, while two auxilary intakes were located in ventral position, on the sides of the oil cooler tunnel;
the air intakes of supercharger were still in the wingroots, with the water cooler intakes;
the oil cooler "533" was put in a ventral tunnel between the wheel bays;
the radio set was composed by a RSI-3 transmitter and a RSI-4 receiver;
the gunsight was a PBP-1A;
a new control column incorporating the brake lever, fire control button and press-to transmit button was installed;
the oxygen system was KPA-3bis and a 4 liters bottle;
the access to radio and oxygen equipments was from the hatch on the right side of fuselage;
the engine was an AM-35A with reduction 0.732, built with spare parts (of AM-35A and of AM-38) because of engine shortage; it was 40 kg heavier than the standard AM-35A;
the propeller was a AV-5L-126A, with a 3.2 m diameter;
a 440 l bladder-type fuel tank, contained on a box of flame-resistant plywood, was installed between engine and cockpit;
it should be possible to install two further tanks in the wings, for further 210 litres.
The first prototype D-01 was first flown by the test pilot V.N.Savkin on May 31, 1943. During June and July furter 5 fighters were built, named from D-02 to D-06.
D-04 had a larger wing, with a span of 11.14 m and a 18.22 mq area.
The D-01 completed 28 flight tests, showing problems of engine overheating, particularly of oil."


At http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/mig3/i-231.html we will find history of I-231, i.e. developement of I-230 powered by AM-39:


"OKB-155 started works to modify the I-230 with a new AM-39A engine, rated 1700/1800 hp, in September 1943. The new aircraft was designated I-231, or 2D.
Contemporarily to this, a new high altitude fighter with the same engine was built. This was the I-220, or A; it was a far larger aircraft than the MiG-3, despite a superficial resemblance. The I-231 was considered as a backup program for this more advanced fighter.
In comparison with I-230, the I-231 had some differences:
the new AM-39A engine;
the cowling and nose panels were slightly modified;
a new enlarged water cooler with 30 dm2 effective cooling area was installed; in this water cooler was integrated the additional cooling loop (7 dm2) of the intercooler cooling air from the supercharger to the cilynders;
the fuselage tank was enlarged to 500 l.
the rear fuselage was all metal built, with a bit lowered back;
the rear window of the canopy was without the central strut to improve visibility;
the horizontal tail surfaces were lowered of 200 mm (as on original MiG-3) to avoid vibrations noted on I-230. "
(...)
The first flight was made on October 19, 1943; the team was headed by test pilot Captain V.M.Savkin, chief engineer V.Fufurin and motor engineer I.V.Kotov.
On 5 November, an heavy misfunctioning of the supercharger oblied the pilot to make an emergency landing on Noginsk airport. Despite the emergency, the landing was executed with undercarriage extracted, and didn't damage the aircraft; the pilot Savkin was rewarded by the Order of Red Star for this. "

If I have a choice between a site with no bibliography or a site based on ( http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/mig3/references.html )

Scale Aircraft Modeller International, n. 7 July 1998 (English)
articles of R. J. Caruana and Harry Woodman: has good 3-view 1/48 drawings of both versions, 10 color profiles, some interior details (engine included) and some good photos.

Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War, Volume One (English)
of Yefim Gordon and Dmitri Khazanov: it gives a technical and historical description of all the Soviet fighters of WW2, including all the versions and the prototypes, with good b/n photos and drawings and some color profiles (not of MiG-3).

OKB MiG of Piotr Butowsky and Jay Miller (English)
It gives a good historical and technical description of the aircraft, with a lot of photos, forthemost small but reasonably clear; it describes the MiG-3 derivatives as I-210, I-211, I-230 and I-231. The drawings are too small and not good.
This remakable book describes all the MiG types, comprising all the prototypes.

Red Stars n.1 (English-Finnish)
of Carl-Fredrik Geust, Kalevi Keskinen and Kari Stenman. It shows 7 large photos (reported on MiG OKB too, but these are larger). It shows 2 color profiles too (it's the only source I have found whose profiles distinguish between short-nosed and long-nosed version).
Good book of about 160 pages, with a lot of profiles and photos of nearly all Soviet types.

Replic n.65 (French)
reports an article about the construction of the Classic Airframes kit, written by Olivier Soulleys; there are 4 photos of real aircrafts (white 04, white/red 42 and 2 of MiG-1 prototypes).

Typi Broni n.66 (Polish)
is a Profile-style Polish monography. It features a lot of color profiles (with no distinction between long-nosed and short-nosed versions), a color 3-view, a cutaway and some b/n details; there are many photos, forthemost of poor quality and retouched.

Aviacija n.3 (2000) (Russian)
reports an article about rockets used on MiG-3, with medium quality photos, Russian text and English notes.

Air International june 1984, (English)
with 7 color profiles drawn by John weal of apparently good quality (without distinction between long-nosed and short-nosed aircrafts); overall good quality, but with some mistaken or discutible interpretations.

Air International September and October 1986 (English)
reports brief technical and historical description on MiG-1, MiG-3, I-210, I-211, I-230, I-231 with small drawings and photos.

Modelizm 4/2000 (Russian)
tabloid-style Russian magazine, with an article about ICM kit and some detail drawings for correction. All written in Russian.

Some Red Star videotapes
in Russian, showing some scenes allowing to find original examples.

MiG Flugzeuge of K.H.Eyermann, ed. Transpress (German)
It was published in 1986 in the DDR; it shows 3-view and color profiles (to verify; red 02 features a red star on the spinner! Aaaagh!), a cutaway, some not exceptional photos and apparently good 3-view drawings of various related prototypes, from I-200 to I-231.

Some sources say of an article on Air Enthusiast n.19, but I haven't this magazine.

Barbarossa Victims of Tomasz J.Kopanski. (English)
B5 size 144 pages 8 in colour (about 20 colour profiles of various Russian aircrafts). 350+ B&W photos most of them never published yet on most types in service in july 1941.
There are 42 unhedited photos of operative MiG-1s (with MiG-3 style canopy) and early MiG-3s, and one color photo of German origin.
Please look at http://www.tarnobrzeg.tpnet.pl/fp/default.asp for more details.
It features a table of captured Soviet aircraft by Germans in the first weeks of the war.
This book is absolutely recommandable.

Batailles aeriennes: (French)
Monographic magazines with many rare photos and profiles of various aircraft, including MiG-3s, plus excellent 1/72 drawings.
n.12: Operation Barbarossa (1√¬®re partie): a pair of good photos of MiG-3;
n.13: Operation Barbarossa (2√¬®me partie): some good photos, plus a good 1/72 drawing, plus an excellent modellistic article on RPM kit with some rare detail photos; a pair of not-so-good color profiles (reprised from older profiles of other authors);
n.16: Operation Taifun, Objectif Moscou! : good photos, good 1/72 drawing and 3 unhedited color profiles.

Black cross-red stars vol.1 and 2 of Christer Bergstrom and Andrey Mikhailov, ed. Pacifica Military History. (English)
two historical books with a good photographis support; the 2nd volume includes many color profiles of Soviet and Axis aircrafts.
The quality of historical research and comparation of various sources looks extremely good.
Some photos of MiG-3 are enclosed.

Wing Master n.2 hors serie - Barbarossa (French)
a series of photos of Soviet aircrafts and pilots, most of which unpublished or at least new for me. Many color profiles of Soviet and Axis aircrafts. There are 5 photos and two profiles representing MiG-3s.

Unknown battles on the Moscow skies, vol.1. and 2, of D. Hazanov (Russian)
I have not them, but I have received many scans of MiG-3 photos, and I think they could be a valuable source with a lot of new images.

MiG-3 Fighter by A. Medved, D. Khazanov, M. Maslov, ed. Rusavia, 2003 (ISBN 5-900078-24-8). (Russian)

... then I will choose a site with above references as a source of knowledge. Btw I own a book on MiGs by Piotr Butowski, co-author of one of above mentioned books. Another one is a large article on Soviet high-alt piston fighters published in well established Polish military magazine Nowa Technika Wojskowa.

woofiedog
07-26-2006, 02:02 PM
Kocur_... Excellent reading! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Soviet Aircraft books and over all history are lacking in my collection. But I do have some and have read the Red Phoenix by Von Hardesty.

And as far as the info on the net... yes there is a lot of multi-rewritting. Same info on a 100 pages.

But to take info from my books and scan it out. Is a bit time consuming for a posting. Most of my posts are made while making supper, coming home from work [11-7 shift] or when at work and things are a bit slow.

But the orginal quesion of the thread was about the early I-200 Mig-1 and the later Mig-3... I believe.

But again Thank's for the info you have posted. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

RCAF_Irish_403
07-26-2006, 02:02 PM
thanks for clearing that up guys....for the record, Wiki's got the correct date for the introduction of the MiG 3....i misquoted it

Kocur_
07-26-2006, 02:51 PM
Woofiedog! There are no more informative posts/threads on these forums than those by you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

As far as Soviet planes are concerned there is a problem with sources. Those published in the west before 1990s were, in lack of anything better, just repeating whatever Soviet authors had to say. And what they had to say was technological superiority over present and former enemies. So we read of almost undestructable Il-2s, Soviet fighters being always superior at (at very least!) something over LW ones, lousy tranceivers in US/British L-L planes compared to Soviet radio sets, PTRD/PTRS gunners killing Tigers and so on and so forth... That included twisting technological developement history, i.e. "speeding up" some designs, like "about 100 Yak-3 powered by VK-107 produced and used in WW2" or said MiG-3U flying in 1942. Its performance put in 1942 perspective looked more 'attractive' than put in real one, i.e. mid-1943, when it was quite well, but not stellar, which was also main reason behind dropping the design.
What it takes to learn real things is reaching for publications based on Russian ones of 1990s, when Soviet history, including technology developement history could be put straight after fall of comunism.

woofiedog
07-26-2006, 11:12 PM
Kocur_... Fully agree with your statments on the historical information of pre-1990 Soviet Military History and Equipment and most countries since the Cold War.
Many gaps of accurate information about the military campaigns and battles or etc are still left unanswered or still have the same censored facts or data.

Hopefully more of the quailtiy reading material that has been coming out recently from all sides of WWII or the Great Patriotic War will continue to provide more of the correct answers.

One of the losing battles of this information right now... is the thinning of ranks of Veteran's, who fought in this war.

But on the Lighter Side... Wouldn't it be a lot better if we could sit down with a Couple of Maine Lobster's with lots of Melted Butter and some Frosted Mug's or two and discuss these facts! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Kocur_
07-27-2006, 08:59 AM
... and at least one half-a-litre bottle of Polish hospitality http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There are still things about the Internet, that can be improved, especially "Beam me up, Scotty!" function http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

woofiedog
07-27-2006, 01:28 PM
Cheer's! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.valencialiquor.com/images/bucket-samadams.jpg

LStarosta
07-27-2006, 01:53 PM
Pssst, there is no apostrophe in cheers!

woofiedog
07-27-2006, 01:57 PM
There is with mine! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif