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BH-21
03-11-2007, 09:45 AM
This is a picture of a 4.08 B6N. See if you can notice the problem.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r50/BH-21/B6N1.jpg

In case you didn't notice it, the tail wheel is down during flight and in particular when the belly gun is extended, being in its line of fire.

berg417448
03-11-2007, 01:05 PM
Some versions of the B6N didn't have a retractable tailwheel:


http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/6/6b/B6N2_in_formation.jpg

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/air/jap/nakaj/00366.jpg

http://jnpassieux.chez-alice.fr/images/Tenzan.jpg

http://www.j-aircraft.com/captured/capturedfrom/TAIC/TAICS19/ap-taic19-4.jpg

BH-21
03-11-2007, 06:06 PM
Thats hardly conclusive proof that tail wheel is supposed to be that way. You don't even know the context in which the pictures were taken.

Anyways even if that were right, it would be impossible to fire the gun dead astern with that wheel down, but not in this game.

B6N 01 (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/NavyJB&W/B6N-4s.jpg)
B6N 02 (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/NavyB&W/Jill.jpg)
B6N 03 (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/NavyJB&W/B6N-11s.jpg)

VW-IceFire
03-11-2007, 06:16 PM
So does the wheel retract when the gunner moves into the top position? I suspect this might be a problem with what objects the animation is tied to.

berg417448
03-11-2007, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by BH-21:
Thats hardly conclusive proof that tail wheel is supposed to be that way. You don't even know the context in which the pictures were taken.

Anyways even if that were right, it would be impossible to fire the gun dead astern with that wheel down, but not in this game.

B6N 01 (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/NavyJB&W/B6N-4s.jpg)
B6N 02 (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/NavyB&W/Jill.jpg)
B6N 03 (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/NavyJB&W/B6N-11s.jpg)

Some (but not all) versions of the B6N had a fixed tail wheel. It did not retract. I have seen specific reference to the B6N2 having a fixed tail gear as one of its modifications.

VW-IceFire
03-11-2007, 09:17 PM
Given the number of photos I've seen with the tailwheel in the current configuration I've observed in game (it is permanently fixed down) I'd say this is looks normal. Yes it might have hindered the ventral gunner position somewhat but I suspect not as much as it looks. After all up ontop there is a tail there ...so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BH-21
03-12-2007, 06:46 AM
You obviously don't get it. There is no reason to have that gun position with the tail wheel down. Its primary purpose is to shoot dead astern at planes sneaking up on the aircraft from behind and a bit below out of the upper guns arc. If you want to prove your point find a picture of one with the tail wheel down and the lower gun position used. They more then likely did away with the entire position cause it was heavy and not very effective.

ruby_monkey
03-12-2007, 05:00 PM
Its primary purpose is to shoot dead astern at planes sneaking up on the aircraft from behind and a bit below out of the upper guns arc.
That's a pretty big assumption, especially as the gunner can't even see dead astern. More likely it's there to provide cover over the whole lower rear sector.

BTW, as you are the one claiming that there's a problem, then the onus is on you to provide supporting evidence; and this you have singularly failed to do. Self-righteous indignation at those who don't blindly accept your statement doesn't cut it.

VW-IceFire
03-12-2007, 07:02 PM
BH-21...I'm not sure I follow you there. Dead astern is a really hard place to be with moving aircraft. Any degree of angle and the gunner has a clear shot. From the gunners perspective the total area of the sky that the tail wheel covers is relatively minor. The gunner in theory can hit a pretty wide area below the aircraft which is entirely the point as I had read about it. Given that rear gunners have to deal with the tail being in the way...this is very minor. If they wanted to take out a aircraft that was somehow managing to fly in an attack pattern that was completely covered by the thin and narrow rear region of the plane (relatively speaking) then all the gunner has to do is get the pilot to kick the rudder a bit and then he's back in the gunsight.

I haven't seen a picture of a B6N save one where the tail wheel wasn't extended like that. At first when you brought it up I thought it was going in and out with the turret gunner moving to the position. Obviously its not so I don't see this as being a bug. Since the configuration seems to match that in the pictures I can see why the modeler/design team chose to make it this way. I'm not sure why this is a hot button issue...

Kozhe2
03-13-2007, 07:14 AM
Well, I made this model, so I can say the tail wheel was supposed to be non-retractable, so it's not an unintended "bug".

If I remember correctly (I made the B6N years ago) most if not all the B6N2 had blocked tail wheels.

BH-21
03-13-2007, 07:54 AM
The B6N2 was made because of the 138 or so B6N1 used at the Battle of the Phillipine Sea that were destroyed from below by F6Fs. The B6N1 had the retractable tail wheel. After that it gets fuzzier, especially as to where you get your info. The fixed tail wheel was due to the fact that few were operating from carriers and eventually they removed the carrier landing equipment too. The B6N2 added the tunnel gun in addition to the other 7.7 mm Lewis gun on the dorsal side. Then they made the B6N2a and it swapped the dorsal gun for a 13mm gun. None of the versions had self sealing fuel tanks or crew armor.

Kozhe2 its a lovely model. Its the implentation of it in game that I'm concerned about.

Icefire then why can the AI fire it dead astern and hit you, just like on the B5N firing throgh its tail and depressing its dorsal gun more then possible. The AI fire arcs are wrong on alot of the gun positions on aircraft.

As to cutting it forum Nazi's who have nothing to add to the topic at hand and who attack people in them doesn't cut it either ruby_monkey. Go flame something else.

tigertalon
03-13-2007, 08:33 AM
Interesting thread! I have no clue on the subject, have a question however: how did the gunner aim the gun? Was any kind of periscope or mirror system used? Did the gunner need to change his position when switching between dorsal and ventral gun?

berg417448
03-13-2007, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
Interesting thread! I have no clue on the subject, have a question however: how did the gunner aim the gun? Was any kind of periscope or mirror system used? Did the gunner need to change his position when switching between dorsal and ventral gun?

Here are some diagrams and drawings:

http://www.netwings.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=...D43&omm=19&viewmode= (http://www.netwings.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1364&forum=DCForumID43&omm=19&viewmode=)

http://www.netwings.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=...D43&omm=21&viewmode= (http://www.netwings.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1364&forum=DCForumID43&omm=21&viewmode=)

BH-21
03-13-2007, 12:17 PM
Very interesting berg417448. The gunner when using the ventral gun would likely have room enough to lay down and fire it. So the ventral gun will lay down the centerline of the fuselage. The tail wheel probably blocked a 4 or 5 degree area from the gun firing astern in versions where its down.

You wouldn't happen to have any info on the tail wheel and when it became fixed. Out of the 1,268 aircraft made in the B6N2 series there seems to be some variation. I know some mounted radar for night torpedo attacks. If I were to guess it would be when the B6N2a was introduced, to offset the heavier gun and the removal of the carrier equipment.

berg417448
03-13-2007, 01:41 PM
Sorry, I don't have more info on the B6N production right now.

I have seen some comments that the ventral gun position was supposed to be manned by the Navigator/Bombardier rather than the dorsal gunner when it was used but I don't know if that is actually the case. It makes sense that they would want both guns to be manned during the time of attacks by fighters. Perhaps there is more room there than it looks!

Tater-SW-
03-13-2007, 06:00 PM
According to Francillon the 2 had a fixed tail wheel. I don't have anything better than his book on the subject, so I can't really help.

tater