PDA

View Full Version : Why you should not buy a new computer now....



Jumoschwanz
06-17-2005, 11:19 PM
Tomshardware.com website recently had a test of 33 PCI express video cards. They used the beau. torp track that comes with PF as one of their benchmarks.

Their rig was an Asus SLI deluxe motherboard with and Athlon 64 4000+ cpu and a gig of ram.
On perfect mode at 1600x1200 resolution, with the ATI X850XTPe video card, they got 68fps running this PF track.
This is of course nice and smooth, but is it impressive? I do not think it is impressive when my old 32-bit, nforce2/athlonxp3200/1gigram ran 58fps, same track, same settings, with the AGP version of the same video card!

The Asus SLI motherboard and ATHlon64 processor they used in the website test would be over $600 U.S if you got them cheap on the web. This alone is much more than I needed to upgrade my rig with just the AGP version of video card they used.

Also, I ran the test with patch 4.01 installed, which they did not, and 4.01 is supposed to be worse framerates. If you take this into account the new computer looks to be an even worse deal.

So if you are wondering whether or not to get a new rig for big bucks to take on the latest sims and such, you might want to wait a while if your rig is a AMD xp2500 or faster, or one of the 2.5 gig or faster P4s on a AGP8x motherboard.
YOu can get almost all of the performance of the alleged super-duper new rigs simply by getting the video card for the super-duper rig and putting it in your older rig like I did.

If I am going to spend all the cash to build a new rig I sure as heck would want a lot more gain in fps than the poor bastards are getting that are jumping on the 64-bit/SLI/superP4 bandwagon. I want to wait until I can spend the same cash and get two or four times the fps like they will be getting in a year or two.

I hope this helps some folks decide one way or the other, or saves someone some cash.
My rig is kicking PF as8s !

S!

Jumoschwanz

arcadeace
06-17-2005, 11:47 PM
Its an interesting review. I don't fully understand how to judge a good system because folks here with the same or similar setups tell of substantial differences in fps with high settings. One member who comes to mind is Steve V. His system looks similar to yours tho he has a 98Pro, and he's no dummy how to squeeze the most, but he averages much lower fps? Its not that same PF track but at the same time his resolution is much lower. I'm not doubting your word, just pointing out the continued, and huge, discrepancies to this day I'm unable explain.

I am of the same opinion as you with my plans to build my next system. With respectable fps at this point in PF I won't even consider a new system until I've bought and played BoB. Then I'll get the best prices for the best parts possible, hopefully with no regrets.

-HH-Quazi
06-18-2005, 12:27 AM
I wouldn't trust Tomshardware for any review.

Waldo.Pepper
06-18-2005, 01:39 AM
To late just picked up a new chip/motherboard today.

If you wait for somehing better all your life you'll be dead.

That's the line I used on my wife to getr 'er to marry me.

ClnlSandersLite
06-18-2005, 01:57 AM
If you wait for somehing better all your life you'll be dead.

That's the line I used on my wife to getr 'er to marry me.

Honestly, one major problem you'll see is that it won't be until about 6 months - a year that you really start seeing alot of software designed to take advantage of the new hardware capabilities.

Pirschjaeger
06-18-2005, 02:37 AM
I just spent 650 Euro, on the web, for a new machine. My old machine is a P3,933MHz, Gforce2 vcard, and 786mb ram. Obviously I needed something new. PF shows no mercy.

I talked to many friends for the best solution. One of my buddies owns a company the produces engines for games. He told me not to buy SLI since no games support it.

I got this:

Asus A8N-E
AMD Athlon 64 3800+Venice
Leadtek WinFast PX6800GT TDH 256mb
1 gig DDR

So, for sure it will be better than my old pc but for how long? I also wonder how many driver problems I'll have. What will PF and BoB look like? I have doubts and expect many issues.

To be honest I`m not as excited as I should be. I have little faith in the computing industry, both in hardware and software.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
06-18-2005, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by ClnlSandersLite:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you wait for somehing better all your life you'll be dead.

That's the line I used on my wife to getr 'er to marry me.

Honestly, one major problem you'll see is that it won't be until about 6 months - a year that you really start seeing alot of software designed to take advantage of the new hardware capabilities. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree with Waldo on this one. I have been following the advice of others and waiting another 2 months for the last 2 years. Now they are telling me to wait another few months since new technology is coming out. This tells me that NOW is the time to buy. I don't want to be the guinea pig for the hardware manufacturers while they spend the next year trying to make their new technology work.

Fritz

Lucius_Esox
06-18-2005, 03:21 AM
Jumschwanz,
This is an interesting post and one which is contrary to what I have read.

I've got an XP2800 running a 9800 pro, which is fine, but it would be nice to have more!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My mobo is a Gigabyte GA7VAXP with a 333mhz fsb, and I'm using 768 mb pc2700.

Most people say that I'm cpu bound on this sys and a new vid card would not benifit me that much, but from what you have just said.......

Anyone else's thoughts on this?

Jumoschwanz
06-18-2005, 05:48 AM
More:

Arcadeace, your friend with the same system as mine except for the 9800pro does not get near my framerates simply because he has a 9800pro! I had the 9800pro and got much lower framerates on perfect mode at 1600x1200 resolution. Buying the X850xtPE more than doubled my fps!

Lucius-Esox, you could use 256mb more ram. your Gigabyte MB is AGP 8x. I would get the latest bios for it and I think it is also 400fsb capable.
I am glad I did not build a whole new rig, with just the video-card from the latest rigs I got so much more performance I never would have believed it without seeing it! I was definitly not cpu-bound at all!
The two points I wanted to make were first; if you have a later 32-bit system, it will run fps comperable to the latest expensive systems if you only ad the latest graphics cards they are using to benchmark these latest systems with!
Secondly, you can buy an Nforce2 motherboard and the fastest AthlonXP 32-bit cpu for one quarter to one third the price of an SLI/Athlon64 setup and it will benchmark near the same with the same video card!

So even if you have to build a new system now, you can build the fastest 32-bit AMD rig right now for half the cost or less of an AMD64, get 90% of the performance.

There is no 64-bit software out there now anyway, and only some games benchmark dramatically better with SLI dual video cards.

If you build a very expensive, state of the art rig now, in a year or two when Bob comes out, 64-bit software comes out and the the rest of the next-gen games come out, you will have a very borderline or sub-par rig anyway.
So will in a year or two my rig will be borderline or sub-par, the difference is I only bought a video card to get there, those who built monster rigs now will have bought the video card plus an new cpu, MB, possibly ram and who knows what else, double or quadruple the money, for no more performance.

If you have an nforce2 motherboard and xp2500 or faster processor, you do not need a new rig, you need to get an X850xtPE video card! It makes the 9800pro look like scrap! I am sure the same goes for the later P4 rigs that have 8x motherboards. It is the new ATI X800 series and 6000 series Nvidia video cards that are responsible for the good framerates on the newer computers and that is it. If you could stick a 9700pro or 9800pro into the latest 64-bit/PCI-E/SLI rig, it would get bad framerates at 1600X1200 res on perfect mode too!
S!
Jumoschwanz

-HH-Quazi
06-18-2005, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by ClnlSandersLite:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you wait for somehing better all your life you'll be dead.

That's the line I used on my wife to getr 'er to marry me.

Honestly, one major problem you'll see is that it won't be until about 6 months - a year that you really start seeing alot of software designed to take advantage of the new hardware capabilities. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, but this is the way it always is. And 6 mos from those 6 mos and so on. Eh, I built my rig going on 6 mos ago, and there has been nothing new come out to make me wish I hadn't, with the exception of the new FX chips and all that is to me is an upgrade seeing as they will function in my mobo. And BoB, as far away as it is. Shoot. Build now. My lower AMD 64 3500+ with an X800XT PE and 1GB ram eats this game for all three meals on Perfect Landscape, 6X AA & 8X AF with all settings to quality in game and conf file. Nothing that is out now(6 mos newer) can actually surpass it by a large enough margin to be worthy of conversation. And the best thing 6 mos from now will only give a less than marginal improvement to my current 54 fps in the BD track with those settings above. And the same for 6 mos after that. So I feel that if you want to build one, get it done. Or keep waiting for the next best thing and never do it.

JG54_Arnie
06-18-2005, 06:29 AM
Ofcourse, timing is important. But in general, make sure you get the best out of your system. Obviously in your case Jumo, its not necessary. Makes sense. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But when you have an old computer and want a new one, ofcourse it will be a good choice to buy something fast, but also something that will last.

The 64bit technologie is not taken advantage yet with the current software. This will be soon enough though when that software is coming and 64bit will show its advantages a lot better. IMO, buying a 32 bit setup now will leave you behind when 64bit software is gonna be used. So with an eye on the future, 64 bit will still be the better choice now. The windows for 64 bit wont be that long, I suspect that for IL2 (bob wont be out yet) Oleg could very well build an update to let you take advantage of the 64bit tech.
I use my new systems for at least two or three years. As long as you´re satisfied with not being among the top end systems all the time its fine. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Although from what I´ve seen, the prices between 32 bit and 64 bit hardware arent that widely appart.

Howie A
06-18-2005, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Jumschwanz,
This is an interesting post and one which is contrary to what I have read.

I've got an XP2800 running a 9800 pro, which is fine, but it would be nice to have more!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My mobo is a Gigabyte GA7VAXP with a 333mhz fsb, and I'm using 768 mb pc2700.

Most people say that I'm cpu bound on this sys and a new vid card would not benifit me that much, but from what you have just said.......

Anyone else's thoughts on this?

Lucius, have you tried overclocking your computer? It looks like its worth a try to raise your front side bus higher.

Bearcat99
06-18-2005, 08:06 AM
I agree with you Jumo... I dont plan to upgrade until at least3 mos to a year after the release of BoB. I really dont need high power for anything but simming. I had a XP2500 on a 9800 Pro OCd to 2.0.. I upgraded to an XP3200 on a 6800GT and addied 512M of RAM to my 1G... I noticed some improvement not so much in FR as in quality of the image and overall performance.....

OldMan____
06-18-2005, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
Ofcourse, timing is important. But in general, make sure you get the best out of your system. Obviously in your case Jumo, its not necessary. Makes sense. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But when you have an old computer and want a new one, ofcourse it will be a good choice to buy something fast, but also something that will last.

The 64bit technologie is not taken advantage yet with the current software. This will be soon enough though when that software is coming and 64bit will show its advantages a lot better. IMO, buying a 32 bit setup now will leave you behind when 64bit software is gonna be used. So with an eye on the future, 64 bit will still be the better choice now. The windows for 64 bit wont be that long, I suspect that for IL2 (bob wont be out yet) Oleg could very well build an update to let you take advantage of the 64bit tech.
I use my new systems for at least two or three years. As long as you´re satisfied with not being among the top end systems all the time its fine. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Although from what I´ve seen, the prices between 32 bit and 64 bit hardware arent that widely appart.

well, my Atlhon 64 is running a 64 bit operating system, and Is taking a hell of advantages from it :P

Chuck_Older
06-18-2005, 08:33 AM
Gotta say Oldman should know what's up in this regard


The reason I can't buy a new rig right now is simple:

I'll be evicted and won't have any electrical outlets to plug it into if I spend the money

-HH- Beebop
06-18-2005, 08:57 AM
My plan is the same as Bearcats'. Upgrade around 6 mo. after BoB comes out. My current rig has a 9800XT card, 2 gig PC 3200 RAM and a 3.2P4 and I play at 1280 X 960 X 32/Perfect. There are very few scenarios that drop my FR to below 25 fps, which is undistingquishable from seamless motion. I figure that when BoB comes out I should be able to play it at 1024 X 768 X 32 at the equivalent "Excellent" setting.
From what I've seen, the BoB engine should look quite good so these setting should be adequate. (Could be wrong, not the first time.) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
I remember when I first played the original IL2 Demo. I was stunned by the graphic quality. At the time I was runing a P3 600 Coppermine, 128 Megs of RAM and had a 8 Meg ATI Expert@Play card. It ran very smooth.
IMO, the only reason to upgrade now would be to:
1. Upgrade to a 256 Mb graphic card if you don't have one yet.
2. Add RAM if you have less than 1Gb.
These two improvements will make every game you play run and look better and should hold you until there are more games out that require better hardware.

ImpStarDuece
06-18-2005, 09:14 AM
I am in the 'research and planning' stage of building my first system.

Everything I have bought before has been a pre-made system, but I'm beginning to think that it's worth the money to switch to a hand built system just for the expandability that it offers.

I'm not looking to put it together for 6-8 months (I'll need time to save the money). I don't want to buy the 'latest with the mostest' but I am looking with intrest at where the technology is headed. Hopefully, the upcoming generation of cards/processors ect will push down the existing top of thr range to something more reasonable. That way in half a year or so, i'll be able to put something like a 64 bit based SLI capable rig that I can really for a couple of years. It seems like we are on a crest of simultaneous improvements that will create real performance enhancements.

I personally have never seen the need to buy or own the best and most bleeding edge technology. Sure, it's nice to have it, but when a component is 50% of the cost and has 85% of the capacity, i know where i'll be spending my money.

Owlsphone
06-18-2005, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Jumschwanz,
This is an interesting post and one which is contrary to what I have read.

I've got an XP2800 running a 9800 pro, which is fine, but it would be nice to have more!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My mobo is a Gigabyte GA7VAXP with a 333mhz fsb, and I'm using 768 mb pc2700.

Most people say that I'm cpu bound on this sys and a new vid card would not benifit me that much, but from what you have just said.......

Anyone else's thoughts on this?

Actually, I had a system almost exactly like yours. AthlonXP 2800, 1 GB of RAM, and a 9800 Pro. Guess what I upgraded about a year ago? I got a 6800GT and havent regretted it. Sure guys say we're CPU bound, and we are, but just because we can't get TOP performance out of a 6800GT like a 64 bit cpu can doesn't mean we aren't getting much better performance than our 9800 Pros.

Don't let anyone tell you that a newer video card won't improve your gameplay experience with your 2800, because it will greatly. I was considering getting a 64 bit chip to smooth gameplay out because I thought that upgrading my cpu was my only hope.

The only reason however that I would endorse getting a good video card however is if you don't plan on upgrading your mobo and cpu for a while. This is because with your AthlonXP you will be required to get an AGP card like I have. If you were to build a new PCI Express system you would be unable to transfer that card out. So if you are planning on getting a 64 bit system any time soon, I would just hold off.

JG54_Arnie
06-18-2005, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
well, my Atlhon 64 is running a 64 bit operating system, and Is taking a hell of advantages from it :P

Cool, fill us in. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Is that the windows beta btw?

OldMan____
06-18-2005, 10:20 AM
No, linux.

The only reason I stil have Windows is for PF. But I will remove it as soon as I buy a copy of cedega so I can play PF on linux. I already played some games at older versions of Cedega and performance hit is not big (the money you save not buing windows is enough to by a faster CPU to compensate for that)

Tasks like vide encoding, compression decompression, compiling etc are much faster with optimized 64 bits programs.

Flying_Nutcase
06-18-2005, 10:47 AM
I have a P4 2.8GHz/1 Gig/Radeon 9800-256 and that'll do me just fine until BoB comes out.

New rig: Feb 2007.

Specs: Quad Core processor, I hope! Maybe 4 Gigs RAM, the next generation of video card. Just day-dreaming a bit. Won't know till then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Speedy Gonzaliz. At least five times the overall processing power is my wish.

GT182
06-18-2005, 10:53 AM
One word of advice here... never never buy a store bought pc... build your own. Even if you never built one don't be afraid to ask a friend or here on the forums. Figure you'll build one for half the cost of buying a complete system. And you'll have a better system in the long run. Plus you'll save yourself a lot of money that you can put into the one you're building.

And don't say you can't do it yourself.... that's a bunch of horse hockey. LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-HH- Beebop
06-18-2005, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
...SLI capable rig...

Keep your eye on that. Right now it's getting mixed reviews. I have heard rumors afloat that ATI is working on cards that are as fast as SLI at 1/3 the price (of two SLI capable cards).
Plus, right now, if one card fails in an SLI setup you either lose 1/2 your picture or suffer a tremendous framerate hit.

OldMan____
06-18-2005, 11:42 AM
Until now I never saw teo barsd from exact same model and brand not work properly on SLI.

SLI is quite safe, save a few problems with betadrivers and very rare games. It is a great Idea inthe concept that your next upgrade may be alittle bit smaller than current one.

heywooood
06-18-2005, 11:42 AM
when BOB is in full release in stores...not before.

DarkCanuck420
06-18-2005, 12:29 PM
exactly, dont buy a new computer from a store. unless its alien ware. even then its best to build your own. buy the pieces that you need not the pieces that the store say you need.
The only possible upgrades i may be getting are larger harddrive, ive only got a 40gig now. maybe a soundcard, im using an onboard. and possibly a new video card. I had a 9800pro 128 that cr4ped out on my and i sent it back. I may go for a 6800gt.

question. How are thrid party manufactors like: PNY, XFX, Leadtek for making nvidia based cards?? If i were to get a 6800gt from a thrid party manufactor which companies are high quality??

another question: why are tomshardware.com reviews bad???

Cheers

steve_v
06-18-2005, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
I wouldn't trust Tomshardware for any review. True. So very, very true.

JG54_Arnie
06-18-2005, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
Until now I never saw teo barsd from exact same model and brand not work properly on SLI.

SLI is quite safe, save a few problems with betadrivers and very rare games. It is a great Idea inthe concept that your next upgrade may be alittle bit smaller than current one.

Hmm yes, two 6800 Ultra´s tastyness. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Oh boy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Airmail109
06-18-2005, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by DarkCanuck420:
exactly, dont buy a new computer from a store. unless its alien ware. even then its best to build your own. buy the pieces that you need not the pieces that the store say you need.
The only possible upgrades i may be getting are larger harddrive, ive only got a 40gig now. maybe a soundcard, im using an onboard. and possibly a new video card. I had a 9800pro 128 that cr4ped out on my and i sent it back. I may go for a 6800gt.

question. How are thrid party manufactors like: PNY, XFX, Leadtek for making nvidia based cards?? If i were to get a 6800gt from a thrid party manufactor which companies are high quality??

another question: why are tomshardware.com reviews bad???

Cheers

Overclockers.co.uk will only stock those cards because they think they are of higher quality! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Lucius_Esox
06-18-2005, 03:26 PM
Howie A said,


Lucius, have you tried overclocking your computer? It looks like its worth a try to raise your front side bus higher.

Have thought of this m8 but my mobo doesn't allow me to do this without driving my PCI slots up as well, which causes instability http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I know there is a a "mod" to unlock my cpu multiplier but to be honest am not too confident with doing that.

Owlsphone,
Yes quite a few are saying what you say and as I don't intend to do any mobo CPU upgrades until nearer Bob I think it is the way I'm gonna go.

Now the really hard part,,,,,, paying for it!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

wayno7777
06-18-2005, 03:58 PM
Unless your rig is so far behind like my 750 Duron, video upgrade is probably the best way to go right now. One other thing, AGP is on the way out. Some sources say by the end of the year, of course we all know how that goes. The guys waiting til BOB comes out are on to it. By the time it comes out we should be looking at dual core procs and PCI-EX as the norm. If you must get a new mobo now make sure it has at least two PCI-Ex slots. And if you go AMD make sure to get the 939 proc cause the others are going by the wayside and won't be supported. The Intel side is still really really fuzzy.
So I guess you could say the upgrade deal is still SNAFU. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif