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View Full Version : Did the P-47 really stall that easily?



XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:59 PM
I'm moving at 310 KPH and I make a turn. I roll 45 degrees to the left or right, and pull up very slightly. And I stall!!!!!!! Would this really happen. I think my joystick is too sensitive, I know it's not me, I've stalled without even touching the joystick!!


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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:59 PM
I'm moving at 310 KPH and I make a turn. I roll 45 degrees to the left or right, and pull up very slightly. And I stall!!!!!!! Would this really happen. I think my joystick is too sensitive, I know it's not me, I've stalled without even touching the joystick!!


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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:10 PM
You have to know what a stall is to explain this. When the flow of air over the wing is insufficient to creat lift, you have a stall condition. This can happen regardless of the speed the aircraft is moving (as in the case of rapid and severe control movements). Turn an aircraft sideways and the wing is pretty much out of the picture anyways. Once lift and airflow over control surfaces is gone, you have a fast moving rock, and until flow is re-established, control is impossible.
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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:28 PM
I know what a stall is. And I believe it happens a bit too often. I'm not trying to be an angry troll by the way, if I am, I'm sorry.

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:35 PM
No.

You would have to pull the yoke with both hands as hard as you could to induce a stall at high speeds like one sees in FB especially with the P-47, and then there is still some question as to whether you could do this to the same degree as in the game. Control surface compression is one reason.

Low speeds are of course a different story, as there is much less air pressure on the control surfaces. IL-2/FB doesn't seem to model low and high speed handling very differently or accurately. It is very simply modeled, and unpredictable unlike real life. Where one always has clues he is entering an unstable or stall condition, whether these are airspeed indicated, buffeting noises, or from the seat of their pants.

In FB this severly effects certain flight models stability in manuever.

So, does this effect all flight models equally. Nope. The Yak I-16 and other FM's for example has little stall rate modeling. One can pull all day long, even at the limits of control surface travel and barely induce a stall at any airspeed.

Even when the critical angle of attack is modeled to be exceeded in other flight models. The only thing that appears to be correct is what airspeed the wing will stop providing enough lift to keep one in the air.

This is not right. But I agree is hard to model in a sim with computer and fly by wire controllers. But it is unfair to certain FM's.

Point being all wings stall when critical angle of attack is exceeded.

The stall modeling in IL-2/FB apparently s modeled to address the differences in turn rate, rather than to address realistic stall modeling itself.

It is more of a handicap than realistic stall modeling.



Message Edited on 06/17/0301:01PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:39 PM
I don´t fly the 47 online as I also think it stalls a little too much, although I should train a bit with it, as I´m sure it must be a great plane to fight with, and very durable to combat damage...And lovely looking also, specially with metallic skins...

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:44 PM
What about the P-40!! That's even worse. I cannot make the gentlest turn without a stall/spin. Not right at all.

I'd never join a club that would have ME as a member!!.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:46 PM
That´s true, but I don´t know why, I still rather prefer to fly the P40 than the 47...I guess I know it better, so I know how far I can pull it...

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:51 PM
In both cases, the elevator is too touchy. Thats why they stall so much. There is nothing extraordinary about the speeds or AOAs that they stall at.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:00 PM
StG77_Fennec wrote:

"In both cases, the elevator is too touchy. Thats why they stall so much. There is nothing extraordinary about the speeds or AOAs that they stall at."

-----------

This sounds reasonable.

As far as the 47, considering this planes weight and size I'm surprised normal pilot control input would cause this much instability. I would expect this phenomona to effect lighter weight aircraft to a greater degree.

But apparently in IL-2/FB its the opposite.

This stall modeling, twitchy elevators or whatever has been a major question since the games release.






Message Edited on 06/17/0301:07PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:08 PM
From what read about it it was a dream to fly. A very stable platform. It was no great sustained turner but it flew better than it does in FB. I am chomping at the bit for this patch.

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:11 PM
I think we can both agree on that one/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:18 PM
ELEM wrote:
- What about the P-40!! That's even worse. I cannot
- make the gentlest turn without a stall/spin. Not
- right at all.


Train more often in it. I can turn in it without any problems.



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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 07:27 PM
High-speed stall was a reality pilots were living on P-40, P-47 and Fw-190 - nasty stall and immediate spin without warning.

Joel Paris was a P-40 ace with the 49th Fighter Group in the Southwest Pacific. In his book "Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific" talk about P-40:
".It was an unforgiving airplane. It had vicious stall characteristics." But it had many other good characteristics to offset this..

AVG vet Erik Shilling:
".P-40 had a vicious tumble (end over end) if a stall was entered into at a nose high position."

Fw-190 would go to spin if pilot try 6G turn at high speed.

It is interesting that even P-47 could outturn Fw-190 at the speed above 250-275mph (as per US trials of P-47D-4 RE vs. Fw190A-4).

But P-47 had his share of stall/spin problems. Zemke didn't like it, by the way, he said - something like "only those who didn't fly anything else liked it" (not exact quote).
He called plane "...Overall the P-47 was a big disappointment."
But this didn't prevent him flying the plane with great success!


Just keep your plane within flight envelope, use strong characteristics of your plane - you will be fine. Oleg said to adjust P-47 roll rate "a little" in the patch - it will be even better then.


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Message Edited on 06/17/0302:29PM by Bogun

adlabs6
06-17-2003, 07:54 PM
I struggle with these things as well. Last night I was flying on the AFJ server, and on several occasions tried to get up high with the P47 to try some energy attacks. I never made it, since during my climb (well away from most others) someone mostly flying La's or Yak's was just hanging around waiting to see "P47" or "P40" in my icon and swoop in for the easy points.

While climbing or trying to get into an advantage position in the first minutes after takeoff, the P47 is IMO more vulnerable than the Me262 is. There is simply not much room to work in during these moments of the P47's flight, stalls and spins are waiting right there. I eventually quit playing for the night before I got mad.

Strangely, I can do OK sometimes in the P40, which seems even more unstable than the P47.

Which reminds me, last night, my P40 went into an inverted flatspin (upsidedown, totally horizontal, spinning like a top) after I had tried to roll 180 at the top of a loop. I knew I was doomed, so I bailed. Much to my surprise, when my pilot left the plane, he was actually falling faster than the P40 was! Is this realistic? Not in my imagination! I tried to save a track, but my parachute opened by then, and the P40 caught up with me and passed my pilot.

Anyone else seen this?

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 08:01 PM
adlabs6 wrote:

someone mostly
- flying La's or Yak's was just hanging around waiting
- to see "P47" or "P40" in my icon and swoop in for
- the easy points.

try " full real" instead, then the P47 is a exzellent aircraft.

catch enemy plane by surprise ( correct english ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 08:50 PM
adlabs6 wrote:
- I struggle with these things as well. Last night I
- was flying on the AFJ server, and on several
- occasions tried to get up high with the P47 to try
- some energy attacks. I never made it, since during
- my climb (well away from most others) someone mostly
- flying La's or Yak's was just hanging around waiting
- to see "P47" or "P40" in my icon and swoop in for
- the easy points.
-
- While climbing or trying to get into an advantage
- position in the first minutes after takeoff, the P47
- is IMO more vulnerable than the Me262 is. There is
- simply not much room to work in during these moments
- of the P47's flight, stalls and spins are waiting
- right there. I eventually quit playing for the night
- before I got mad.
-
- Strangely, I can do OK sometimes in the P40, which
- seems even more unstable than the P47.
-
- Which reminds me, last night, my P40 went into an
- inverted flatspin (upsidedown, totally horizontal,
- spinning like a top) after I had tried to roll 180
- at the top of a loop. I knew I was doomed, so I
- bailed. Much to my surprise, when my pilot left the
- plane, he was actually falling faster than the P40
- was! Is this realistic? Not in my imagination! I
- tried to save a track, but my parachute opened by
- then, and the P40 caught up with me and passed my
- pilot.
-
- Anyone else seen this?
-
-

Not in the P40, but I have in other aircraft, most notably the Chaika. My comments earlier concerning stalls were to illustrate my view that once one understands WHY a stall occurs, one is better able to prevent it from occuring. I agree the P47 is, for me, too easy to stall, but then I don't fly it often, jumping into it for a ground pounder slugfest after being in much lighter and easier handling aircraft. I notice that those who fly it often (like any other aircraft) don't seem to have this problem. Could be wrong, though it would be the first time /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:12 PM
adlabs6 wrote:
-
- Which reminds me, last night, my P40 went into an
- inverted flatspin (upsidedown, totally horizontal,
- spinning like a top) after I had tried to roll 180
- at the top of a loop. I knew I was doomed, so I
- bailed. Much to my surprise, when my pilot left the
- plane, he was actually falling faster than the P40
- was! Is this realistic? Not in my imagination! I
- tried to save a track, but my parachute opened by
- then, and the P40 caught up with me and passed my
- pilot.
-
- Anyone else seen this?


Actually, yes, that could happen. The a/c is presenting more aerodynamic resistence. You as a human present less, ie. comparatively you'd drop like a stone.

A guy I who used to work with me related a story from his grandfather who was a radio-op in a B-24. Seems his bomber was cut in half behind the wings, he bailed out through the open end and said that as he was falling he looked up and saw the front half of the Lib spiraling directly above him. And he was afraid to open his chute because he thought the plane would then fall on him. So he was falling away from the plane faster than it was falling.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:41 PM
You really have to hold the P-47 at a high speed. at 310 km/h, it barely flies.

The P-47 was made for high speeds.

Also, you get warnings before stall in FB the plane is starting to shake a little and you hear an odd sound, like wind. sometimes when you are really pulling your stick, the warning is very short and stall will be almost immediate.

It is then very easy to get into a spin also.

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:41 PM
Roger that Bearcat,

What I did and it helped a bit, was to use Oleg's joystick settings that i had in il2 and transferred them to FB.
It helped a bit, but it still stalls way too much. Sort of like the way the P-39 used to stall in iL2...
Now the P-39 is rock solid.

MMnmmmm i wonder if the FM files got messed up by accident?

anyone know?

Either way, please dont touch my P-39n1. I love that plane..



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The_Blue_Devil
06-17-2003, 11:46 PM
In a Word...NO!!!

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:31 AM
Former Grumman test pilot Corky Meyer wrote "Its (the P-47's) docile normal and accelerated stall characteristics did not interfere with aerial gunnery runs." in this months Flight Journal. He also mentioned the P-40's high stall-spin accident rate. Having flown neither, I'm inclined to give some credit to an experienced WWII factory test pilot who evaluated these and other fighters for the U.S. military (along with other test pilots) at Pax River during the war.
That being said, I think that the problem is not so much with the P-47's stall modeling (though some more warning would apparently be in character with the real aircraft), but with the stall modeling of other aircraft. Most of the planes I've flown off line for any amount of time (I-16, LaGG-3, Brewster, Bf-109F-2/F-4/G-6/G-10, Fw-190D-9) won't stall with a smooth application of full back stick. Only if I yank the stick (and induce an excessive pitch rate) can I get these planes to stall. I should have enough pitch authority to stall these things up to their structural limits (past which I should start doing damage to the plane with too much aft stick, control forces permitting.) I too am flying with Oleg's settings, which limits control surface deflection to a degree, but even so these things currently fly like an Ercoupe (which lacked enough pitch authority to stall, and thus was billed as a "safety plane".) The P-39 seems especially toned down, though I haven't spent much time with it yet. I don't think they'll be tweaking the stall performance much though, in a consession to playability. That and I suspect the Airacobra fans would threaten a lynching if anyone messed with the newer, more friendly FM.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:45 AM
The stall modeling in FB is a joke right now. The only planes in FB that appear to have correct stall modeling is the P-40 and P-47. All the rest seem to be invulnerable to stalls or have them very forgiving. For example, I should be able to stall the Fw 190A4 while flying 500km/h+ by pulling a 6G+ turn. In FB, the Fw's suffer "cement stick" at these speeds and so you are physically incapable of doing this. The Fw 190A's also had a stall speed of 200km/h in clean configuration (flaps up, gear up). In FB they stall at 160km/h. This is just one of many examples one can use. I am hoping that the first patch corrects these problems. BTW, if the stall and agility modeling is corrected, then the P-47 will have an even harder time. I say this because the Fw 190A's were notorious for "hanging on their props" while out turning P-47's at low speed. In FB the Fw 190's can't do this, but once the patch is released they probebly will.

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The_Blue_Devil
06-18-2003, 12:50 AM
Maj_Death wrote:
- The stall modeling in FB is a joke right now. The
- only planes in FB that appear to have correct stall
- modeling is the P-40 and P-47. All the rest seem to
- be invulnerable to stalls or have them very
- forgiving. For example, I should be able to stall
- the Fw 190A4 while flying 500km/h+ by pulling a 6G+
- turn. In FB, the Fw's suffer "cement stick" at these
- speeds and so you are physically incapable of doing
- this. The Fw 190A's also had a stall speed of
- 200km/h in clean configuration (flaps up, gear up).
- In FB they stall at 160km/h. This is just one of
- many examples one can use. I am hoping that the
- first patch corrects these problems. BTW, if the
- stall and agility modeling is corrected, then the
- P-47 will have an even harder time. I say this
- because the Fw 190A's were notorious for "hanging on
- their props" while out turning P-47's at low speed.
- In FB the Fw 190's can't do this, but once the patch
- is released they probebly will.
-
Not to burst your bubble...but the Jug out turns the FW and 109 at altitude..on the deck it is lunch meat..but at historical altitude it will turn with if not out turn most LW planes.

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<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:55 AM
Not to burst your bubble but when was the last time you saw a dogfight at 9,000m in FB?

Sorry, couldn't resist/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif . Please forgive me.

----------------------------------------
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As we all know, the Soviet Union had too many fighter pilots during WW2. So Stalin's scientists came up with a brillient way to solve this problem. They would make some of their pilots fly British made Hurricanes. The Hurricane was an uber flying coffin. It was designed to maximize pilot kills by providing nothing but fabric and a few wooden spars around the cockpit. This setup prevented the pilot from escaping easily while at the same time not interfering with enemy bullets and shrapnel trying to pass through it. The rest of the Hurricanes structure was designed to ricochet bullets and shrapnel into the cockpit. And thanks to the cockpits superb design, all of them would pass through the cockpit and the pilot inside with little difficulty. Of course the Hurricane's designers didn't stop there. In order for the Hurricane to become a flying coffin, they had to make it easy to shoot. They did this by making the Hurricane the slowest monoplane fighter in use at the time and even gave it a very bulky shape so that it would be easy to spot and hit. The final feature of the Hurricane was its ability to bury or cremate itself. And because it was made of biodegradable materials, the Hurricane was environmentally friendly after it buried itself. Because of these brillient features, the Hurricane was a perfect flying coffin and helped the Soviets solve the pilot surplus they were suffering.
http://www.bestanimations.com/Humans/Skulls/Skull-06.gif

Message Edited on 06/17/0307:57PM by Maj_Death

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:00 AM
Depends what you mean by "stall that easily", in particular what do you mean by "that". P47 has very high wingloading, so I imagine its 1G stall would be at a relatively high speed, and in general its flight envelope is tilted towards higher speeds vs most other aircraft.

If by "that easily" you mean does the real one stall simply by moving a springloaded plastic joystick a few inches, the answer is no. Then again the real one isn't controlled by a springloaded plastic joystick. But the virtual one you fly is, and that is something you need to adapt to.

Stalling isn't the planes fault, it is the pilots fault. If the plane you are flying is undamaged and stalls without you wanting it to stall, then it is entirely due to pilot error. Learn to fly the plane within its envelope. Once you learn to fly it within its envelope it will never stall (unless it is damaged or for some reason you want it to stall). Then you will know its envelope and will be able to compare that to test data of the real plane.

In many cases it is easier to change the joystick input settings than it is to change the way you handle the joystick, so if you are unwilling/unable to change the way you handle the joystick then try adjusting the input settings so that you do not exceed the planes flight envelope.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 06:34 AM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- Not to burst your bubble...but the Jug out turns the
- FW and 109 at altitude..on the deck it is lunch
- meat..but at historical altitude it will turn with
- if not out turn most LW planes.
-
-
Ubeen up to high alt? up high u can barly turn, its about high speed, at low speed or low alt 190 would be better turner, up high its differnt but its too much trouble turning at all up high.


http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

The_Blue_Devil
06-18-2003, 09:05 AM
Maj_Death wrote:
- Not to burst your bubble but when was the last time
- you saw a dogfight at 9,000m in FB?
-
All the time m8..Sorry you fly your FW on the Deck..LMAO The servers I fly on require that you fly at high alt..lest you be bounced from above..Thank you for proving that you can't say the same. I fly my Jug were it is the most effective.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

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Message Edited on 06/18/03 04:13AM by The_Blue_Devil

Message Edited on 06/18/0304:14AM by The_Blue_Devil

The_Blue_Devil
06-18-2003, 09:09 AM
HellToupee wrote:
---
- Ubeen up to high alt? up high u can barly turn, its
- about high speed, at low speed or low alt 190 would
- be better turner, up high its differnt but its too
- much trouble turning at all up high.
-
Hmm..I dunno m8..sounds like you are a turn and burner(i.e. you never break 3km). you fly a yak?
-


<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

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XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 10:21 PM
Great quote! And sadly yes they did stall that easily

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 11:00 PM
Could it be that Oleg's "physics" modelling tries to do too many aircraft types? I mean, in Flanker you don't get near the FM whining, but then Flanker has only one or two flyable aircraft it tries to model.

For the number of flyable aircraft FB has, maybe (*ugh*) CSF3~esque look~up tables or however they do it would be better given the need to sim massive WW2 airbattles with hundreds of aircraft. Okay, modern jet air combat don't involve hundreds of aircraft within 10km box, so I can go with Flanker Math. But FB Math may not be worth given all the FM problems with countless flyables. Or maybe all will be fixed upon releace of The Patch. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Interesting:: There are more flyable aircraft in FB than can be AI simmed at one time.

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 11:01 PM
I'll have to agree with those on the subject of the P39....it had a considerably worse reputation than its stablemates the P40 and P47. I'm also curious as to the level at which the P39's can compete with various LW a/c. There was a reason why the western allies withdrew it from front line service on all fronts....it sucked. I got a vid on pilots of the 357th. Col. Hayes says in his bit..."We flew p39's at Tonopah...we hoped to god that they didnt send us to Europe becuase p39's were being shot down as fast as they flew."

History doesnt lie.


just my 2 cents.

http://pic2.picturetrail.com/VOL36/883152/1699348/22841105.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 11:16 PM
I need to take some captures of p47ds in combat manuevers you will be amazed at what they can do compaired to thier fm in FB

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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 03:36 AM
Different theatres different needs.

the P39 had a reputaion in the east as well as the west, it was a good reputaion, and there was a reason for that too you know.

I havn't read Yaeger's view of the P39, but from what I understand he liked it. Many people who flew the P47 couldn't wait to get into a real fighter, others liked it. It had its own reputations, they varied and there were reasons for all of them.