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Waldo.Pepper
01-21-2006, 09:53 PM
From; Invasions Without Tears. page xix


Moreover, the young aces were not always the "tough killers" they imitated. "More than one fighter pilot actually disliked the work, while carrying out his duties competently and with determination," Reinke said. "Doing 'rail cuts' or bombing bridges or shooting up locomotives was a satisfaction; you were able to see the damage you'd created and how it would impede the enemy. But, not having had the army's conditioning to front-line slaughter and mutilation, many had to force themselves to fire their guns when an enemy column of men or horse-drawn carts was in their sights. Some didn't."

To illustrate, Reinke recalled an incident that occurred in April, 1945. Several pilots were standing outside a tent, waiting for the evening's movie to start. One of them was describing how that afternoon he had attacked a column of trucks. "There wasn't any sport to compare with shooting Jerries as they dived for the ditch, he insisted, with a kind of chuckle. But none of the others made a syllable of comment or picked up the theme in any way. The topic died, in a void."

Not atypical, Reinke added, "was the reaction of one squadron commander ... as he concluded reporting to the intelligence officer how he had spotted a column of about fifty German soldiers pedalling along a road on bicycles." The pilot had "knocked over" at least five of them. "As he turned to leave the IO's tent, only half-jokingly, he muttered: 'Five men on bicycles. What a €"€"€" I am.'"

Waldo.Pepper
01-21-2006, 09:53 PM
From; Invasions Without Tears. page xix


Moreover, the young aces were not always the "tough killers" they imitated. "More than one fighter pilot actually disliked the work, while carrying out his duties competently and with determination," Reinke said. "Doing 'rail cuts' or bombing bridges or shooting up locomotives was a satisfaction; you were able to see the damage you'd created and how it would impede the enemy. But, not having had the army's conditioning to front-line slaughter and mutilation, many had to force themselves to fire their guns when an enemy column of men or horse-drawn carts was in their sights. Some didn't."

To illustrate, Reinke recalled an incident that occurred in April, 1945. Several pilots were standing outside a tent, waiting for the evening's movie to start. One of them was describing how that afternoon he had attacked a column of trucks. "There wasn't any sport to compare with shooting Jerries as they dived for the ditch, he insisted, with a kind of chuckle. But none of the others made a syllable of comment or picked up the theme in any way. The topic died, in a void."

Not atypical, Reinke added, "was the reaction of one squadron commander ... as he concluded reporting to the intelligence officer how he had spotted a column of about fifty German soldiers pedalling along a road on bicycles." The pilot had "knocked over" at least five of them. "As he turned to leave the IO's tent, only half-jokingly, he muttered: 'Five men on bicycles. What a €"€"€" I am.'"

Badsight.
01-21-2006, 11:52 PM
during WW1 , after many rifles were found loaded , they wanted to know the causes

apparently many men during WW1 couldnt bring themselves to kill & just went thru the motions but not acutally pulling the trigger

some rifles were found reloaded multiple times over

Capt_Haddock
01-22-2006, 04:30 AM
Most veteran fighter pilots said that they were "shooting at the plane, not the pilot". This was a way of distancing themselves from the actual act of killing.

When those same pilots were asked to shoot anything that moved on the ground they hard a hard time coping with it because the killing was far to clear (This is well reflected in Yeager's memoirs)

At the same time bomber pilots had no problem coping with their actions, including the indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Germany, because they simply didn't see the result of their actions.

It's also interesting what Stephen Bungay says in his book on the Battle of Britain when talking about the Polish pilots on the RAF. They came from another war, the Eastern Front, a far more brutal war where they had seen their villages burnt down and their families murdered in cold blood. Those pilots didn't shoot at the plane. They shot at the enemy pilot.

http://www.haddock.f2s.com/sig/F19bannerh3.jpg

Taylortony
01-22-2006, 04:49 AM
The Geneva convention Prevents you shooting at Aircrew bailing out of doomed planes, BUT Paras are fair game, tell me how you can differenciate between the two dropping out of a cloudy sky...

on a lighter note we will talk Penguins..... these dumb birds have really restricted neck muscles and are facinated by all things flying.

On approach to Stanley Airport (Londons 4th Airport, thats where the money went) In the Falklands Herc pilots noted that the poor penguins would line up transfixed at the Hercs on final approach and as they flew over the top would try to follow them by looking up and would fall over backwards.... this developed into a biit of inter squadron sport where Hercs would line up a long way out and as slow as possible to get the maximum number of Pengiuns watching their plane then see who could bowl over the most Pengins on an approach...........

Still was better than the other pastime of going to the beach early on and watching them blow themselves up on the anti personnel mines as they waddled ashore.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Gibbage1
01-22-2006, 05:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
The Geneva convention Prevents you shooting at Aircrew bailing out of doomed planes, BUT Paras are fair game, tell me how you can differenciate between the two dropping out of a cloudy sky...

on a lighter note we will talk Penguins..... these dumb birds have really restricted neck muscles and are facinated by all things flying.

On approach to Stanley Airport (Londons 4th Airport, thats where the money went) In the Falklands Herc pilots noted that the poor penguins would line up transfixed at the Hercs on final approach and as they flew over the top would try to follow them by looking up and would fall over backwards.... this developed into a biit of inter squadron sport where Hercs would line up a long way out and as slow as possible to get the maximum number of Pengiuns watching their plane then see who could bowl over the most Pengins on an approach...........

Still was better than the other pastime of going to the beach early on and watching them blow themselves up on the anti personnel mines as they waddled ashore.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was chuckling too myself... Till that last part.

|CoB|_Spectre
01-22-2006, 05:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
Still was better than the other pastime of going to the beach early on and watching them blow themselves up on the anti personnel mines as they waddled ashore.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

CNN.com ran a story a few months ago about an unexpected benefit of uncleared minefields in the Falklands near Port Stanley. They said the penguin population was flourishing thanks to the minefields. The report said they weren't heavy enough to detonate the mines, but their usual pedators were. Could be different mines or a particular species of penguin.

luftluuver
01-22-2006, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
The <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Geneva convention Prevents you shooting at Aircrew bailing out of doomed planes</span>, BUT Paras are fair game, tell me how you can differenciate between the two dropping out of a cloudy sky... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure about that, during WW2?

Taylortony
01-22-2006, 05:37 AM
I would have said yes. Incidentaly did you know rusty barbed wire is against it to as it is a major cause of blood poisoning, therefore they use razor wire now that does not rust......

also another one is it is illegal to fire on aircraft carrying the red cross, the RAF when I was in had to change all the first aid kit markings on the likes of the Jet provost which carried them externally to show the location of the kit to Green so as to get round it as technically it was in breach of the convention being a warplane.

|CoB|_Spectre
01-22-2006, 06:10 AM
Adolph Galland reportedly gave strict orders not to shoot airmen in parachutes, but we know it was up to the man behind the trigger. I remember seeing an interview with 357th triple ace Major Richard A. "Pete" Peterson talking about flying bomber escort when he saw a German pilot going from chute to chute, gunning bomber crewman who'd bailed. You could see in the man's eyes the anger that still burned from witnessing this horror some 50+ years earlier.

He said, "I went after this guy and just started pecking at him. I didn't want to shoot him down, I wanted him to bail out. I wanted him to see what it was like. He finally did bail. Six fifty-calibre machineguns will tear a man to pieces".

I believe Galland knew brutality is returned in kind. And so it was.

AH_Gonzo
01-22-2006, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> it is illegal to fire on aircraft carrying the red cross, the RAF when I was in had to change all the first aid kit markings on the likes of the Jet provost which carried them externally to show the location of the kit to Green so as to get round it as technically it was in breach of the convention being a warplane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That green cross is still in use on any military aircraft or vehichle that carries first aid equipment. A Red Cross or Red Cresent, can only be used to indicate a vehichle or location containing casualties and cannot be armed in any way.

Mind you, every war since Vietnam has seen the Red Cross abused by both sides.

Taylortony
01-22-2006, 02:15 PM
Cough like the ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm nope better not say could get in trouble

jimDG
01-22-2006, 04:32 PM
There's this story about 12 P-47s wandering about aimlessly above the French country side looking for ground targets to pound and finding nothing. So, after hours they finally spot a lone German on a motorcycle speeding on a dirt road. One P-47 is ordered to drop his bombs on him - he misses. then a second p-47 drops his bombs. All P-47 drop their bombs, and then strafe, eventually running out of ammo - the German is still intact.
The author concluded by saying that this was one very lucky German.

The first thing I thought after I read it was "Duh, who would want to aim a p-47 accurately at a lone guy on a motorcycle" (except, maybe, the group commander)
And to think of the poor German - surviving 24 bombs and 48000 rounds of .50 bullets fired at him in the course of half an hour - and he couldnt tell anyone about it - noone would have believed him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cajun76
01-23-2006, 04:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
...
And to think of the poor German - surviving 24 bombs and 12000 rounds of .50 bullets fired at him in the course of half an hour - and he couldnt tell anyone about it - noone would have believed him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I would think ample evidence would be found in his pants! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

"Hans, what's that smell?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Dunkelgrun
01-23-2006, 06:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
There's this story about 12 P-47s wandering about aimlessly above the French country side looking for ground targets to pound and finding nothing. So, after hours they finally spot a lone German on a motorcycle speeding on a dirt road. One P-47 is ordered to drop his bombs on him - he misses. then a second p-47 drops his bombs. All P-47 drop their bombs, and then strafe, eventually running out of ammo - the German is still intact.
The author concluded by saying that this was one very lucky German.

The first thing I thought after I read it was "Duh, who would want to aim a p-47 accurately at a lone guy on a motorcycle" (except, maybe, the group commander)
And to think of the poor German - surviving 24 bombs and 12000 rounds of .50 bullets fired at him in the course of half an hour - and he couldnt tell anyone about it - noone would have believed him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Reminds me of that great little IL-2 film 'The Messenger'. Anyone got a link to it still?

Cheers!

BSS_Goat
01-23-2006, 06:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
Reminds me of that great little IL-2 film 'The Messenger'. Anyone got a link to it still?
Cheers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That one was funny http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif