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Richardsen
07-25-2006, 09:02 AM
After some reading at this forum, i see alot of pepole complaining about the spitfire's turn performance.

Sustained turn: This comes up very often, complaining about spits not bleeding energy in turns....... IRL Spits was known for its turning abilty, it performed very well in sustained turn and was capable of very tight turns.

I have also seen some complaing about the spits climb rate, but not so much as turing performance.
Has anyone tested the spit 9 from 0-10000ft.
IRL the spit ix performed 0-10000ft in 2min15sec loaded.
Can somone please test that in game?
I cant because my computer dont work at the moment.

I belive pepole complaining because maybe the spit performs better than theirs favorite aircraft?

StG2_Schlachter
07-25-2006, 09:14 AM
You need to support your claims with evidence!
What do you mean by "loaded" ? How much weight?
Which angle, which throttle setting?

Richardsen
07-25-2006, 09:15 AM
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/bs543.html


One thing i agree pepole complaining abaut is its dive performance, wich i belive is far to good.

D13th_Toppy
07-25-2006, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Richardsen:
Has anyone tested the spit 9 from 0-10000ft.


Do you have a source for this? <> edit, we posted at the same time

Aso, energy bleeding is different from "being able to make tight turns", and also quite dificult to test in game.

p1ngu666
07-25-2006, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Richardsen:
I belive pepole complaining because maybe the spit performs better than theirs favorite aircraft?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Richardsen
07-25-2006, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
You need to support your claims with evidence!
What do you mean by "loaded" ? How much weight?
Which angle, which throttle setting?

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/bs543.html

I have talked to pilots who flew them under WW2 and some pilots from OFMC. Nigel Lamb and Lee Proudfoot.
I have also read much in books.

Richardsen
07-25-2006, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Richardsen:
I belive pepole complaining because maybe the spit performs better than theirs favorite aircraft?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. I thinks thats a reson.

general_kalle
07-25-2006, 09:29 AM
is it just me or did hit turn lesser good before i merged PF???

StG2_Schlachter
07-25-2006, 09:46 AM
A ceiling of more than 41,000 feet http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Gotta try that in the game...

p1ngu666
07-25-2006, 09:51 AM
yeah there was a patch when it turned bad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

plus if u have the wobbles, it handles really bad, so do yaks, and later zeros..

Richardsen
07-25-2006, 09:58 AM
Spit 25lbs:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/jl165rr.html

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/jl165.html

StG2_Schlachter
07-25-2006, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
yeah there was a patch when it turned bad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

plus if u have the wobbles, it handles really bad, so do yaks, and later zeros..

Bad? If that is bad, what is good for you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Richardsen
07-25-2006, 10:03 AM
Spit IX vs 109G

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html

faustnik
07-25-2006, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
yeah there was a patch when it turned bad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

plus if u have the wobbles, it handles really bad, so do yaks, and later zeros..

Bad? If that is bad, what is good for you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Show them the track P1ng!

P1ngyu is not kidding. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

OMK_Hand
07-25-2006, 10:17 AM
Spitfire IXc 1943, Crimea map, clear weather, 2850 rpm +12 boost, 160 mph IAS,

0' - 10,000' in 2 minutes 37 seconds by the stopwatch on my X52.

That was fun!

OD_79
07-25-2006, 10:59 AM
I've taken the Spit to over 41,000 feet in game. Goes very very very slow up there...about 90mph, but it gets there.

OD.

StG2_Schlachter
07-25-2006, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
Spitfire IXc 1943, Crimea map, clear weather, 2850 rpm +12 boost, 160 mph IAS,

0' - 10,000' in 2 minutes 37 seconds by the stopwatch on my X52.

That was fun!

I did it with 170 mph IAS as indicated in the charts at spitfireperfomance.com and needed a little more than 3 minutes.

Question as to the weight specified above the charts:

Is this the fully loaded weight with 100% fuel, guns and ammo and which engines do our in-game Spitfires have?

p1ngu666
07-25-2006, 11:39 AM
http://files.filefront.com/spit1avi/;4630889;;/fileinfo.html

http://files.filefront.com/spit2avi/;4630906;;/fileinfo.html

video makes it look abit less worse than it is, cos of framerate or something.

the plane seems unstable, swingy, unstable (once had a coop and dogfighted against crash in a g6, went on forever cos he kept moving and i was too unstable, and he could pull stuff that would snap stall the spit i was flying. he couldnt get away, but i couldnt kill him either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif)

in turns need to constantly fight and correct the plane, sometimes to "cycle" flaps to help it into a turn.

i could hop in a 109, and in comparison, it was SO much better behaved, more stable, less wobble, easy to turn with. similer with 190, the absolute turn performance isnt as good, but its just so much easier to get to, and fly on the limit.

it is a completely different game to what others have, fausniks spitfire flies beautifuly.

imo alot of the spit whining comes from people being surprised its so good, this is in part because they dont know too much about the later marks. alot of stuff on ww2 on american tv is really strongly american biased, shows *alot* of american stuff, barely mentioning what the other allies where upto at the time.

the IX has a great engine, same as teh war winning p51 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

a very well sorted airframe, so mega handling, feel, etc

low wing loading for good turn

really good climb.

good firepower

plus with 25lb of boost it has http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif performance, speed and climb like the late 109s, but even better turn and dogfight ability cos of the extra power, without extra weight.

u could fly the p51, but **** climb and turn, a tendency for the wings to fall off, tendency to bite u really bad at low alt. wow tempting.

or u could fly something just as fast, mega turn and climb and cannons.

i think alot of the whining too is cos blue fliers where used to having a big performance advantage, either in climb, or speed, or both. and now they dont have that big advantage.

Richardsen
07-25-2006, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
Spitfire IXc 1943, Crimea map, clear weather, 2850 rpm +12 boost, 160 mph IAS,

0' - 10,000' in 2 minutes 37 seconds by the stopwatch on my X52.

That was fun!

I did it with 170 mph IAS as indicated in the charts at spitfireperfomance.com and needed a little more than 3 minutes.

Question as to the weight specified above the charts:

Is this the fully loaded weight with 100% fuel, guns and ammo and which engines do our in-game Spitfires have? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Standard Mark Vc wings were fitted, and the armament consisted of two 20 mm. guns and four 0.303 in. machine guns.
The two remaining gun stubs were fitted with hemispherical blanks.
All gun ports were sealed, but the ejection chutes beneath the wings relevant to the guns

All three aircraft were flying with C.G. 5.0 in. aft of the datum, BS. 354 and BS. 543 weighing 7485 lb., and BS. 551 weighing 7470 lb.

Spits in game have M66 engines.

This results shows that the spits climb rate is undermodeld.

OMK_Hand
07-25-2006, 12:14 PM
160 mph is in the Pilot's notes as giving maximum rate of climb up to 26,000'

180 mph is the 'recommended' climbing speed.

Richardsen
07-25-2006, 12:21 PM
Climb performance Spit MK V:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/aa878.html

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/w3228.html

Spit V with M45 0-10000ft 2.70min IRL
Spit V with M50 0-10000ft 2.25min IRL

Have anyone tested in game?

StG2_Schlachter
07-25-2006, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Richardsen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
Spitfire IXc 1943, Crimea map, clear weather, 2850 rpm +12 boost, 160 mph IAS,

0' - 10,000' in 2 minutes 37 seconds by the stopwatch on my X52.

That was fun!

I did it with 170 mph IAS as indicated in the charts at spitfireperfomance.com and needed a little more than 3 minutes.

Question as to the weight specified above the charts:

Is this the fully loaded weight with 100% fuel, guns and ammo and which engines do our in-game Spitfires have? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Standard Mark Vc wings were fitted, and the armament consisted of two 20 mm. guns and four 0.303 in. machine guns.
The two remaining gun stubs were fitted with hemispherical blanks.
All gun ports were sealed, but the ejection chutes beneath the wings relevant to the guns

All three aircraft were flying with C.G. 5.0 in. aft of the datum, BS. 354 and BS. 543 weighing 7485 lb., and BS. 551 weighing 7470 lb.

Spits in game have M66 engines.

This results shows that the spits climb rate is undermodeld. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are not answering my question completely.
Was there ammo aboard? And if the Gun ports were sealed it gave the plane an advantage. I doubt that a Spitfire did actually meet those figures in normal service.

Xiolablu3
07-25-2006, 01:08 PM
The main reason the Spit gets a lot of stick here is becasue it gives a new pilot a tool which can compete with the veterans.

True of the real SPit and the one in game 'Any idiot can fly a Spitfire'

Possibly dive performance is too good, but we have no real way to measure what 'the FW190 pulls away in a dive' means.

The ingame FW190 pulls away in a dive, but not fast enough to save you if you have a good pilot on your 6. Plus the chasing plane will always have the advantage becasue he can 'cut the corner' of the dive and point his nose ahead of you, therefore chopping the distance.

The SPitfire historically was one of the best close in dogfighters of the war, which is why it wins so many of the online battles. Pilots are more reluctant to retreat and will often dogfight to the death, so the longer the dogfight goes on, the more advantage lies with a SPitfire.

The more realistic the settings on the server, the worse off the SPitfire gets. German planes are generally faster, which enables them to disengage and come back with height and support, a SPitfire caught far from his base will be attacked time after time until he goes down because he simply cannot run unless he finds some cloud to hide in.

If oyu take a F1 car to race a Rally car on a Rally track, dont be surprised when the rally car beats you.

If his plane is the better dogfighter, then dont dogfight, simple.

hamselv2
07-25-2006, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:

the plane seems unstable, swingy, unstable (once had a coop and dogfighted against crash in a g6, went on forever cos he kept moving and i was too unstable, and he could pull stuff that would snap stall the spit i was flying. he couldnt get away, but i couldnt kill him either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif)

in turns need to constantly fight and correct the plane, sometimes to "cycle" flaps to help it into a turn.

i could hop in a 109, and in comparison, it was SO much better behaved, more stable, less wobble, easy to turn with. similer with 190, the absolute turn performance isnt as good, but its just so much easier to get to, and fly on the limit.



I'm in a Spitfire 95% of my gaming time, and I agree with you 100 %, p1ngu.
I think that the game's full wing Mk9's have the worst instability. As you describe it: the pilot has to 'fight' the controls/plane during turning.

It's hard to believe that the game's Spitfire performance depicts the performance of the real life plane that was supposed to be very easy to fly.

p1ngu666
07-25-2006, 01:31 PM
yeah the handling is whack on alot of planes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

tempest requires lots of trim and really rolls/yaws alot when u change power.

the french commentor always says that in spitfire, u dream a manouver, and the spitfire does it.

for a wobbler u dream of the above, as u fight the plane..

if u have wobbles u tend to stick to bnz anyways, cos the speed calms the plane down abit, and u cant rely on turn performance too.

OMK_Hand
07-25-2006, 01:33 PM
With regard to the Mk V climb performance you quote;

Aren't these figures from the testing of specific modifications, using full boost?

Not yer average reference...

For what it's worth, I made 3.06 min in the MkVb, flat out, half radiator, 170 mph.

That too was fun. I'm not sure any of this means anything though.

ploughman
07-25-2006, 01:37 PM
Gents. At the end of this link (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/spit/Spit2Manual.pdf)is a July, 1940 pilot's manual in .pdf format for Spitfire's Mk. IIa and IIb.

NonWonderDog
07-25-2006, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by OD_79:
I've taken the Spit to over 41,000 feet in game. Goes very very very slow up there...about 90mph, but it gets there.

OD.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Absolute ceiling is the altitude at which you can't go faster than stall speed at max power, so if you were down to 90 mph indicated at 41,000 I'd say things are fairly well modelled. You're going MUCH faster than 90mph, by the way; that's just indicated airspeed. 90 mph IAS is ~165 mph TAS or so at that altitude.

WWMaxGunz
07-25-2006, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by hamselv2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:

the plane seems unstable, swingy, unstable (once had a coop and dogfighted against crash in a g6, went on forever cos he kept moving and i was too unstable, and he could pull stuff that would snap stall the spit i was flying. he couldnt get away, but i couldnt kill him either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif)

in turns need to constantly fight and correct the plane, sometimes to "cycle" flaps to help it into a turn.

i could hop in a 109, and in comparison, it was SO much better behaved, more stable, less wobble, easy to turn with. similer with 190, the absolute turn performance isnt as good, but its just so much easier to get to, and fly on the limit.



I'm in a Spitfire 95% of my gaming time, and I agree with you 100 %, p1ngu.
I think that the game's full wing Mk9's have the worst instability. As you describe it: the pilot has to 'fight' the controls/plane during turning.

It's hard to believe that the game's Spitfire performance depicts the performance of the real life plane that was supposed to be very easy to fly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are not properly using the rudder. You even know where the slip guage is?

Other than that is also very unstable for me too, hard to keep flight coordinated.
But then I refuse to mess with my stick sliders for a plane I only flew to see what the
noise was about. Perhaps I should use Fool_Trottle's tool and be a tiny bit happier.
Even then I would still have to spend major time getting to where I don't need to watch
the guage.

p1ngu666
07-25-2006, 01:57 PM
i think service ceiling, or some other type of "ceiling" was when the rate of climb droped below a certain amount.

so u could fly higher, if u was fairly paitent..

Richardsen
07-25-2006, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Richardsen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
Spitfire IXc 1943, Crimea map, clear weather, 2850 rpm +12 boost, 160 mph IAS,

0' - 10,000' in 2 minutes 37 seconds by the stopwatch on my X52.

That was fun!

I did it with 170 mph IAS as indicated in the charts at spitfireperfomance.com and needed a little more than 3 minutes.

Question as to the weight specified above the charts:

Is this the fully loaded weight with 100% fuel, guns and ammo and which engines do our in-game Spitfires have? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Standard Mark Vc wings were fitted, and the armament consisted of two 20 mm. guns and four 0.303 in. machine guns.
The two remaining gun stubs were fitted with hemispherical blanks.
All gun ports were sealed, but the ejection chutes beneath the wings relevant to the guns

All three aircraft were flying with C.G. 5.0 in. aft of the datum, BS. 354 and BS. 543 weighing 7485 lb., and BS. 551 weighing 7470 lb.

Spits in game have M66 engines.

This results shows that the spits climb rate is undermodeld. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are not answering my question completely.
Was there ammo aboard? And if the Gun ports were sealed it gave the plane an advantage. I doubt that a Spitfire did actually meet those figures in normal service. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont know if there was ammo aboard, but the aircrafts tested weights 7400+lb. That means it had to be loaded.
So i believe those numbers are not far from reality.

Richardsen
07-25-2006, 02:21 PM
Have anyone tested Spit 25lbs Climb rate?
sorry i cant test it myself, my computer is broken after some thunder http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Richardsen
07-25-2006, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
With regard to the Mk V climb performance you quote;

Aren't these figures from the testing of specific modifications, using full boost?

Not yer average reference...

For what it's worth, I made 3.06 min in the MkVb, flat out, half radiator, 170 mph.

That too was fun. I'm not sure any of this means anything though.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/

Xiolablu3
07-25-2006, 02:26 PM
Its wierd you guys saying that the SPit is not a good handling plane. I find it a dream to fly.

I feel confident dogfighting anything in it.

Speed is not very good and I would rather be in a 109F4 for an all round plane than a MkV SPit, but if the fight degenerates into a close in dogfight, there is no plane I would rather be in.

Of course if the enemy pilot is any good at all, he will not allow you to use the SPits strengths.

As a dogfighter, I love the plane. But as a all round war plane, it has its drawbacks.

faustnik
07-25-2006, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Its wierd you guys saying that the SPit is not a good handling plane. I find it a dream to fly.

It's true on some systems. On P1ng's system it looks almost uncontrolable, on mine it flies perfectly smooth. I have a lucky combination of components, he doesn't.

Richardsen
07-25-2006, 02:33 PM
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustang-tactical.html

Kocur_
07-25-2006, 02:53 PM
I have two problems with Spitfires (as opponents - are there any from their pilots POV? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif): as Brain32 says, and I have no reason to doubt it, in-game Spits can reach top speed at 85% (iirc) power only, which means their drag is SERIOUSLY undermodelled. That results in two things: doubtful, despite RL great sustained turn and very low wingloading, E retention in deep instatineous turns, where undermodelled drag surely playes a part.
The other thing is diving. P-51D at ~3.000m, with closed rads and say 45% fuel at WEP naturally, cannot gain on Spit 25lbs in dive in say 550-750kmh sector. Later on, as it seems Spits hit invisible wall and Mustang can leave. This surely looks different to what happened IRL:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustang-tactical.html
(paragraphs 18 and 19)

The other issue is overheat. I see no justification whatsoever for the SUBSTANTIAL difference in heating and resulting overheating between Spitfires and most of other planes. In the same Mustang section of Spitfireperformance we can read, that P-51 was able not only to fly at top speed, but also CLIMB all the way to absolute ceiling with rads operating on automatic control and maintaining normal oil and coolant temperatures with 7,25'' opening of coolant rad flap. That can not be repeated in the game in P-51, but Spitfires somehow can fly SO much longer than other planes without suffering from overheat.

Viper2005_
07-25-2006, 03:04 PM
Spitfire overheat is a big issue. It's not wrong; all the other planes are!

If Luftwaffe planes had realistic overheat performance, the Spitfire would be far less scary. If other Allied planes had realistic overheat performance, the Spitfire would be far less attractive.

It is also worth pointing out the the +25 psi Spitfire we have in game is actually a rather poor example; its performance is based upon that of JL.165 which had a sub-standard engine:


A further point of note is the full throttle height at + 18 lbs. of boost which is somewhat lower than has previously been obtained with Merlin 66 engines. A check of the air intake efficiency was taken during the tests, a minimum figure of 94% in level flight being shown at + 25 lbs. sq.inch boost pressure. It would seem therefore that the full throttle height of this engine is low.

The +25 psi Spitfire should be identical to the +18 Mk.IX above its full throttle height. At present it is inferior by 10 mph +.

luftluuver
07-25-2006, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
You are not answering my question completely.
Was there ammo aboard? And if the Gun ports were sealed it gave the plane an advantage. I doubt that a Spitfire did actually meet those figures in normal service. It was standard procedure to put tape over the .303 gun ports. That is the red patch you see in photos.

ploughman
07-25-2006, 03:36 PM
Radiator drag is undermodelled in this game. Rads fully open give a speed penalty of about 20-30 kph over rads fully closed, which is probably less than half what it should be, depending on type.

p1ngu666
07-25-2006, 03:48 PM
naw max, its just the way some planes are for some of us. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif others are very easy...

robban75
07-25-2006, 03:54 PM
Here are some climb charts that I made from the 4.02 and 4.03 patch. They should still be pretty accurate. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Bf 109K-4 1.98 ata, Bf 109K-4(4.02) Spitfire Mk IX +25 boost

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart14.jpg

Spitfire Mk IX +25 boost vs La-7

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart11.jpg

Fw 190D-9 '45, La-7 and Spitfire Mk VIII CW

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart5.jpg

Real La-5N vs real Fw 190D-9

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart19.jpg

Ingame La-5FN vs ingame Fw 190D-9

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart18.jpg

La-5FN real, La-5FN ingame and La-7 ingame

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart17.jpg

Fw 190A-5 1.42 ata vs Fw 190A-5 1.65 ata ingame

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart16.jpg

Fw 190A-5 1.42 v 4.02 vs Fw 190A-5 1.65 v 4.03

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart10.jpg

Ta 152H, Fw 190A-4, Fw 190A-5 and Fw 190D-9(no MW50)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart8.jpg

Fw 190D-9 '45 ingame vs Fw 190D-9 real

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart7.jpg

La-7 4.02 vs 4.03

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart15.jpg

P-51D 4.02 vs P-51D 4.03

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart13.jpg

P-51C vs P-51D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart6.jpg

P-51D ingame vs P-51D real

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart9.jpg

Fw 190D-9 speed comparisons, ingame vs real life

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart4.jpg

Ta 152H speed chart, 1.92 ata and 2.03 ata

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart3.jpg

DIRTY-MAC
07-25-2006, 04:09 PM
excellent robban nice work http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Von_Rat
07-25-2006, 04:59 PM
a SPitfire caught far from his base will be attacked time after time until he goes down because he simply cannot run unless he finds some cloud to hide in.
--------------------------------------------------------


if the spit doesnt blow his e, like most idiots do, he can easily climb away. ive seen it done many times by spit pilots who actually know how to fly a spit. unlike the vast noob majority who usually fly it. and then come here complaing the spit cant disengauge.

HellToupee
07-25-2006, 07:43 PM
unless they are above the spit, or theres more than one atleast co-alt or there are bf109s which will have no problem climbing with.

Disengaging with speed is easy no brainer, trying to disengage with climb is difficult.

Von_Rat
07-25-2006, 09:05 PM
the point is, that it is possiable. from, what i read here people are saying its impossiable.

if you have enough e even the best climbing 09 cant catch you before he overheats.

disengagueing with speed isnt a no brainer either at least against spit. considering how good it accelerates in a dive.

Von_Rat
07-25-2006, 09:10 PM
The main reason the Spit gets a lot of stick here is becasue it gives a new pilot a tool which can compete with the veterans.

True of the real SPit and the one in game 'Any idiot can fly a Spitfire'

__________________________________________________ _______


ok ive read the rel life phrase "any idiot can fly a spitfire".

but ive never heard it refered to in real life as a tool that allows a new pilot to compete with a veteran.

perhaps you have a source.

HellToupee
07-25-2006, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
but ive never heard it refered to in real life as a tool that allows a new pilot to compete with a veteran.


It dosnt ingame, engage an actual new pilot, i watched a new spit pilot lose a turning fight to a 109 with gunpods, i beat a spitvc pilot from 1000m disadvantage in a mc202 won a low and slow turning fight in a anton vs a spit those were new pilots. So a truely new spit pilot wont be downing vets.

JV44Rall
07-25-2006, 09:23 PM
My main gripe with the Spits in game is that, when compared to FWs, they don't sound much like RL, especially in energy retention.

In 1942, the RAF said, based on a side by side comparison, that a Spit IX was the equal to a FW 190 in all areas except speed, where the FW excelled, and turning, where the Spit IX won.

Of course Spit fans here will say that wasn't a boosted Spit IX, like we have here. What FW fans like to point out was that the RAF was comparing the Spit IX to a FW190A3, which isn't even in game. In FB, we have A4, A5, A6, A8 and A9.

I dare you to try stay with a Spit XI in a zoom climb with an A9, much less an A5. The RAF said the Spit IX could keep up with the A3 in a zoom climb.

Not catch or pass, just keep up.

"People complaining because maybe the spit performs better than theirs favorite aircraft."

Put me down as complaining that the FW performs worse than how the RAF said it did compared to the Spit.

p1ngu666
07-25-2006, 09:36 PM
gives the new pilot alot of confidence, and feel, and the spitfire talks to u alot, so u know how far u can push it..

plus if u get it all wrong u can outturn mr hero of the luftwaffles http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

only others i can think of are p47, 'cats and 190, and probably yaks too.

i mean, what would u suggest, based off what u know from irl?

HellToupee
07-25-2006, 10:11 PM
33. The Tempest is not in the same class as the Spitfire XIV. The Tempest V however, has a considerably better zoom climb, holding a higher speed throughout the manoeuvre. If the climb is prolonged until climbing speed is reached, then, of course the Spitfire XIV will begin to catch and pull ahead.


eg tempest vs XIV, tempest had better zoom than 190 to.

stathem
07-26-2006, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
I have two problems with Spitfires (as opponents - are there any from their pilots POV? ): as Brain32 says, and I have no reason to doubt it, in-game Spits can reach top speed at 85% (iirc) power only, which means their drag is SERIOUSLY undermodelled.

I replied to Brain about this previously in a post, but unfortunately it got lost in the Hamster crash. Brain originally noticed this with the +25lb variant, and he was talking about it being able to maintain it€s top speed with 85% power.

We know that for a late war aircraft, the Spitfire is quite draggy. So draggy that it€s top speed is limited by the drag, not the horsepower developed. Since drag varies with the square of speed, a linear increase in hp will not result in a linear increase in airspeed. (even ignoring transmission losses) It follows that there is a maximum amount of hp you give the Spitfire in order to maintain it at it€s top speed. A further increase will not, or will only imperceptibly, increase the outright top speed. (dependant on altitude, naturally). In this case, isn€t it entirely conceivable that the +25lb Spitfire at 85% power is developing that maximum? With Brain I made the comparison with a flat front tractor unit; give it 2000,3000 hp and it may out-accelerate a Ferrari from a standstill: but it won€t allow it to break 200mph. (or whatever). The Spitfire has an excess of power.

There is another thing to consider, which I didn€t mention in my post to Brain. We know that in-game the drag from the prop is modeled. We can see this clearly in the Tempest, where you can accelerate to top speed with 100% power, 100% PP. Now pull that PP down; speed increases. Maximum prop drag is at maximum revs, reduce it and you reduce the drag. I think it is most noticeable in the Tempest because of the high revs used by this aircraft, but the same effect is surely there in other a/c, just less noticeable. Now the Spitfire IX has an €˜automatic€ prop pitch; what that actually means is that the throttle and PP are crudely coupled. So actually, when Brain says 85% power, he means 85% throttle and 85% PP. Less drag, less power needed to drive the aircraft through the air. I am convinced that there is a similar combination of throttle/PP that would give the Tempest its maximum speed, but I haven€t found it yet. Perhaps some of the US plane pilots have a similar setting for their Jugs and Mustangs.



Originally posted by Kocur_:

That results in two things: doubtful, despite RL great sustained turn and very low wingloading, E retention in deep instatineous turns, where undermodelled drag surely playes a part.

Since I€m not convinced your original conclusion is correct, I don€t see how this can be drawn from it.


Originally posted by Kocur_:

The other thing is diving. P-51D at ~3.000m, with closed rads and say 45% fuel at WEP naturally, cannot gain on Spit 25lbs in dive in say 550-750kmh sector. Later on, as it seems Spits hit invisible wall and Mustang can leave. This surely looks different to what happened IRL:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustang-tactical.html
(paragraphs 18 and 19)

Come now Kocur, that€s fairly weak. The report you reference is talking about a comparison between the brand new MkIII Mustang and an old standard Mk IX. It gives no idea of starting speed, altitude. It describes dive angle as €˜slight€

You make a comparison of a P-51D (heavier, different drag) with a Mk IX at +25lb boost. You give no idea of dive angle. You are also talking about diving into altitudes where this Spitfire is developing it€s best performance. Were you both trimmed out correctly? Where was your Prop pitch? Where was his? Even accounting for the dive, a component of what you are testing is level altitude acceleration. Is anyone surprised that the 2000 hp +25lb lightweight Spit excels at this?

Critically it even says

€œAt the same revs the Spitfire IX requires from 4 to 6lb more boost to remain in formation.€

And you are comparing it with a Spitfire with - +7lb more boost.

You may as well compare €˜our€ RAF MkIII Mustang with a standard Mk IXc. By the standards of what you have decribed, it would be as valid.

Richardsen
07-26-2006, 07:38 AM
I think the spits modeling is fine, but its climb performance should be fixed. The Spit IX should climb 0-10000ft between 2.15 and 2.30sec wich it defnatly cannot do ingame. The MK V and VIII is also undermodeld.

Its dive performance is problably overmodeld and that should also be fixed.

Richardsen
07-26-2006, 08:25 AM
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/109gtac.html

I wonder if Oleg have read this when he was modeling spits and 109s.

"The manoeuvrability of the Spitfire IX in this respect is greatly superior to that of the Me.109 and it easily out-turns the Me.109 in either direction at all speeds"

Oleg should use this site when modeling aircrafts for Storm Of War.
Spitfire, 109s, FW190, Mustang, Tempest, Seafire, P47C-N.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/

Kocur_
07-26-2006, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
I have two problems with Spitfires (as opponents - are there any from their pilots POV? ): as Brain32 says, and I have no reason to doubt it, in-game Spits can reach top speed at 85% (iirc) power only, which means their drag is SERIOUSLY undermodelled.

I replied to Brain about this previously in a post, but unfortunately it got lost in the Hamster crash. Brain originally noticed this with the +25lb variant, and he was talking about it being able to maintain it€s top speed with 85% power.

We know that for a late war aircraft, the Spitfire is quite draggy. So draggy that it€s top speed is limited by the drag, not the horsepower developed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm... My knowledge on aerodynamics is very limited, but for what I know, top speed is the point where drag is exactly equalled by thrust, i.e. combination of both governes top speed... And Spitfire indeed was draggy - about as much as radial powered Fw-190A - very low wingloading, i.e. having very large wings does not come without a cost.


Originally posted by stathem:
Since drag varies with the square of speed, a linear increase in hp will not result in a linear increase in airspeed. (even ignoring transmission losses) It follows that there is a maximum amount of hp you give the Spitfire in order to maintain it at it€s top speed. A further increase will not, or will only imperceptibly, increase the outright top speed. (dependant on altitude, naturally). In this case, isn€t it entirely conceivable that the +25lb Spitfire at 85% power is developing that maximum? With Brain I made the comparison with a flat front tractor unit; give it 2000,3000 hp and it may out-accelerate a Ferrari from a standstill: but it won€t allow it to break 200mph. (or whatever). The Spitfire has an excess of power.

There is another thing to consider, which I didn€t mention in my post to Brain. We know that in-game the drag from the prop is modeled. We can see this clearly in the Tempest, where you can accelerate to top speed with 100% power, 100% PP. Now pull that PP down; speed increases. Maximum prop drag is at maximum revs, reduce it and you reduce the drag. I think it is most noticeable in the Tempest because of the high revs used by this aircraft, but the same effect is surely there in other a/c, just less noticeable. Now the Spitfire IX has an €˜automatic€ prop pitch; what that actually means is that the throttle and PP are crudely coupled. So actually, when Brain says 85% power, he means 85% throttle and 85% PP. Less drag, less power needed to drive the aircraft through the air. I am convinced that there is a similar combination of throttle/PP that would give the Tempest its maximum speed, but I haven€t found it yet. Perhaps some of the US plane pilots have a similar setting for their Jugs and Mustangs.


Since top speed is the point where drag is equal to thrust, flying at top speed takes every last bit of thrust you have in the plane. If you were flying at top speed and then reduced thrust from 100% available, you would inevitably slow down! To my understanding it takes ALL the thrust you can get not only to reach, but also to maintain top speed. I hope guys qualified in aerodynamics will correct that notion if its wrong.
Either Spitfires' drag is undermodelled (and its dramatic increace at say 750kmh or 800kmh TAS is triggered) or their engines are producing exactly the same thrust both at 110% power/auto prop pitch and above mentioned 85% power/85% pp, which does not sound realistic, does it.


Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:

That results in two things: doubtful, despite RL great sustained turn and very low wingloading, E retention in deep instatineous turns, where undermodelled drag surely playes a part.

Since I€m not convinced your original conclusion is correct, I don€t see how this can be drawn from it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a matter where engine/prop, parasitic and induced drag meet - I surely know to little to judge it. Wish I had knowledge some of aerodynamics experts of this forum have (whom I hereby call to speak http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)!


Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:

The other thing is diving. P-51D at ~3.000m, with closed rads and say 45% fuel at WEP naturally, cannot gain on Spit 25lbs in dive in say 550-750kmh sector. Later on, as it seems Spits hit invisible wall and Mustang can leave. This surely looks different to what happened IRL:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustang-tactical.html
(paragraphs 18 and 19)

Come now Kocur, that€s fairly weak. The report you reference is talking about a comparison between the brand new MkIII Mustang and an old standard Mk IX. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In order to avoid future confusion, posibly caused by similarity of designations: the report deals with RAF's Mustang Mk.III indeed, but it is NOT in-game "Mustang Mk.III", i.e. the report deals with Spitfire Mk.IX and P-51B, BOTH at the same 67''Hg/18lbs boost.


Originally posted by stathem:
You make a comparison of a P-51D (heavier, different drag) with a Mk IX at +25lb boost. You give no idea of dive angle. You are also talking about diving into altitudes where this Spitfire is developing it€s best performance. Were you both trimmed out correctly? Where was your Prop pitch? Where was his? Even accounting for the dive, a component of what you are testing is level altitude acceleration. Is anyone surprised that the 2000 hp +25lb lightweight Spit excels at this?

What I said in above post is a general impression - I dont think it would help if I recorded a track as we would still have no idea on the other plane condition and its pilot's behaviour, not to mention lag.

The 25lbs Spitfire "best performance" you mention indeed happenes to be in the 3km to deck area, but what matters is not relation between Spit performance at different alts, but relative speed performance between 25lbs Spitfire and P-51D. And that is so much in favour of P-51D! The latter operating at 67''Hg/18lbs boost was IRL (and is in the game) considerably FASTER than Spitfire at 25lbs. Basing on http://www.spitfireperformance.com/ data (as usual http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif) it would be namely:

ALT.FT...........TRUE SPEED MPH...................MAN.PRESS. lbs

..............P-51D....SpitfireM.IX..............P-51D....SpitfireM.IX
0.............375..........364.................... ..18.......25
5000..........396..........367.................... ..18.......25
10000.........417..........367.................... ..18.......25

(most favourable data for both, I dont know what was actually used by devs)


So whatever was advantage in thrust of Spitfire at 25lbs over P-51D at 18lbs, thrust to drag was still considerably better for P-51D. I wish we had report on regular P-51D and 25lbs Spitfire comparison, but considering how great was Spitfires' disadvantage in thrust/drag relation even in 25lbs vs. 18lbs, proven by level speed performance (not to mention how great was its disadvantage in weight/drag) I belive that the only change in descripion of both planes relative dive capabilities could be in replacing "very rapidly" in the mentioned above report with say "rapidly"... DEFINATELY not so in the game!



Originally posted by stathem:
Critically it even says

€œAt the same revs the Spitfire IX requires from 4 to 6lb more boost to remain in formation.€

And you are comparing it with a Spitfire with - +7lb more boost.

You may as well compare €˜our€ RAF MkIII Mustang with a standard Mk IXc. By the standards of what you have decribed, it would be as valid.

Well we have no idea at what boost Mustang was flying in the comparison, but what is obvious, is that top boost levels were not used, since both planes had the same top boosting settings. For since "4 to 6lbs more boost" is mentioned, both planes must have flown at 12 to 14lbs boost (so that Spitfire could reach maximum 18lbs boost). Since Mustang was less draggy - it would be the one to benefit more from thrust increaced to maximum due to top boost. Anyway whatever it was in the said test case, P-51D still had considerably better T/W, not to mention W/D than 25lbs Spitfire.


Dive acceleration has been discussed around here many times. What I understood, probably not so correctly, is that Weight/Drag governes dive acceleration above speed, which is equal to level top speed at certain alt. Since level top speed of 25lbs Spitfire at 3km to deck area is merely about 367mph/585kmh (and less closing to deck), than a P-51D having alread better T/D (as level speed proves) and having undeniably better W/D, being both heavier and less draggy, should totally dominate any Spitfire at diving pass said relatively low 364mph/585kmh - I dont see it happening online. If my observation is correct, then the way I see it all either 25lbs Spitfire's thrust is overmodelled or its drag is undermodelled.

p1ngu666
07-26-2006, 11:57 AM
wasnt the spits wing much less draggy than other wings, at really high speeds?

im terms of topspeed/drag, then its when the power cant push u along faster. but u should be able to maintain a similer speed with less power when u get there, i think.

ill try the 85% thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Brain32
07-26-2006, 12:01 PM
Well I see my previous 85% throtthle opssesion is mentioned, so I decided to jump in and add some comments.
First I did not test only Spit25lbs, I also tested complete MkIXe series, now, although Stathem is the only one that gave me possible explanation I have to note one thing, if Spit is so draggy that HP simply can not push it faster, how come Spit25 is almost 40kmh faster than MkIXe???
Second while top speed indeed can be maintained at only 85% throtthle, climb perfomance and acceleration are ok, I mean Spit can't accelerate or climb at 85% as good as it can do at 100%. I leave the rest of the discussion to you guys because I know very little about aerodynamics, I'll be watching this thread with great interest though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Disengaging with speed is easy no brainer, trying to disengage with climb is difficult.
With a Spit it is easy, sure it may look scary from the cockpit but it's not that hard. Sure 109's can climb with you in a strait line, but can they manouver during the climb? No where near.
Also: People, Spitfires DO bleed speed, that's not the problem, the problem is that those things manouver at low speed insanely good and that's why you think they do not loose speed.

Oleg should use this site when modeling aircrafts for Storm Of War.
While this site is indeed great and usefull, do not take it as a Holy Bible http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Manu-6S
07-26-2006, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Richardsen:
I think the spits modeling is fine, but its climb performance should be fixed. The Spit IX should climb 0-10000ft between 2.15 and 2.30sec wich it defnatly cannot do ingame. The MK V and VIII is also undermodeld.

Its dive performance is problably overmodeld and that should also be fixed.

ALL the FB's planes should be fixed...

All or no one: at least Oleg would have more time for SoW.

p1ngu666
07-26-2006, 12:13 PM
tried the 85% thing, u do go faster with 100%, but not much (10-15kph)

85%, is spookly 18~lbs(just under, actully), with wep on. wep off, 85% is 9lb boost, same on the ixc i tried...

so thats abit odd, but anyways if 0% throttle is 0boost, and 100% is 25lbs, then its 4% to a pound.

round it up, at 85% we should have 21lbs of boost, but we have 17andabit.

its all rather odd :S

Manu-6S
07-26-2006, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Also: the problem is that those things manouver at low speed insanely good and that's why you think they do not loose speed.

Maybe is the cause of the absurd stall recovery of the spits...

I still hate their 180 degrees turns... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Viper2005_
07-26-2006, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
tried the 85% thing, u do go faster with 100%, but not much (10-15kph)

85%, is spookly 18~lbs(just under, actully), with wep on. wep off, 85% is 9lb boost, same on the ixc i tried...

so thats abit odd, but anyways if 0% throttle is 0boost, and 100% is 25lbs, then its 4% to a pound.

round it up, at 85% we should have 21lbs of boost, but we have 17andabit.

its all rather odd :S

0% throttle is a lot less than 0 psi boost.

0 psi boost means that the pressure in the intake manifold is 14.7 psi. That's 29.92"Hg. In other words, 0 psi boost is slightly more than a naturally aspirated engine will give you when its throttle is wide open.

0% throttle = idle, which would probably be rather less than -6 psi.

BTW, if you want to compare with german engines, 0 boost = 1.0 ata = 14.7 psi absolute.

So +14.7 psi boost would be 2.0 ata, whilst +25 psi boost is a whopping 2.7 ata...

Viper2005_
07-26-2006, 12:32 PM
If you want to do the sums:

[(25+14.7)*0.85]-14.7 = 19.05 psi (2 dp)
so that 85% power should be about 19 psi.

Now, in reality, 0% throttle is probably about 2psi absolute (ie - 12.7 psi)

{[(25+14.7)-2]*0.85}-14.7 = 17.35 psi (2 dp)

QED

OMK_Hand
07-26-2006, 01:28 PM
Stathem - For the Tempest maybe something along these lines give reasonable results?:

Climb and combat (using full power etc. in short bursts in combat as necessary): 2950 rpm (85%), +2.5 " (90%), best climb 161 knots ASI

Cruise 2300 rpm (40%) +1" (55%) (get a fair speed from climb setting first, then reduce throttle, then rpm. To increase power = rpm first, then throttle).

According to the RL manuals, some American aircraft like various P51 have what appear to be pretty extreme settings in game, e.g. climb/continuous operation 2700 rpm (75%) 46" (56%).

I recon that adopting things like this generally tend to work, and overheating issues are well under control because of it.

For planes without much reference, the a.i. tends to use Throttle/rpm 75/100 for climb, 50/100 for cruise depending on the speed settings for the waypoint. RPM doesn't seem to feature, but if you experiment with settings like 75/90, 50/75 etc. good results can be found, achieving/maintaining reasonable speed at low temperature settings.

Richardsen, Is Spifire IX 0' - 10,000' in 2.37 as oppose to 2.15 - 2.30 really so bad for a combat sim featuring soooo many types...?

Xiolablu3
07-27-2006, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
The main reason the Spit gets a lot of stick here is becasue it gives a new pilot a tool which can compete with the veterans.

True of the real SPit and the one in game 'Any idiot can fly a Spitfire'

__________________________________________________ _______


ok ive read the rel life phrase "any idiot can fly a spitfire".

but ive never heard it refered to in real life as a tool that allows a new pilot to compete with a veteran.

perhaps you have a source.

Sorry, I meant in game for that part, VR.

Was just the 'Any Ifdiot can fly a Spitfire' that I meant ewas true in real life and in game.

However, it is quite obvious that being easy to fly and having simple controls would give novices a plane that they could complete with veterans BETTER than one which was very complex and tough to use. (such as manual prop pitch on the 109)

Oberleutnant Ulrich Steinhilper of III/JG 52 wrote of the difficulties new
pilots found operating the Me 109's propeller:
'We began our climb almost immediately after take-off and he was constantly
using the radio to ask us to slow down so that he could keep up. It was
obvious that he wasn't manipulating the pitch control with the skill of the
more seasoned pilots to produce the same power as our machines. We tried to
tell him what to do on the radio but to no avail. Eventually, about half way
across the Channel at 4,000 metres Kühle told him to leave the formation and
return to base.'

Xiolablu3
07-27-2006, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
a SPitfire caught far from his base will be attacked time after time until he goes down because he simply cannot run unless he finds some cloud to hide in.
--------------------------------------------------------


if the spit doesnt blow his e, like most idiots do, he can easily climb away. ive seen it done many times by spit pilots who actually know how to fly a spit. unlike the vast noob majority who usually fly it. and then come here complaing the spit cant disengauge.

I have real problems climbing away from a Dora or a 109 in a Spitfire, in fact I have trouble running from anything in the Warclouds plane line up.

Are you saying htat the MkIX standard can climb faster than the Dora or 109G6A/S??

If I get my sights on a SPitfire I can ALWAYS catch him in a Dora or 109, but the other way round is impossible if the Blue pilot runs. Dora and 109's from 1944 are so much faster.

Climbing to escape is a very risky business as you mo doubt know.

WOLFMondo
07-27-2006, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
I am convinced that there is a similar combination of throttle/PP that would give the Tempest its maximum speed, but I haven€t found it yet. Perhaps some of the US plane pilots have a similar setting for their Jugs and Mustangs.

The Tempest PP is very odd though. using pp settings similar to an Anton works ok, reducing the PP when diving past 400mph seems to work but like the Tempests trim, different heights seem to affect if differently. Personally I feel the Tempest is most comfortable at its FTH at 18,000ft, 80% PP, 90% throttle, rads close (most important, they give off so much drag). At that height I think its the best fighter in this sim.

HellToupee
07-27-2006, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
With a Spit it is easy, sure it may look scary from the cockpit but it's not that hard. Sure 109's can climb with you in a strait line, but can they manouver during the climb? No where near.


they can manouver during the climb quite near infact at slow speeds is where the spit compared to the 109 is at its worst turn wise. I not only speak from cogpit experence on the giving end spiral climbing planes are sitting ducks to anyone coalt or above with speed.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BBB_Hyperion
07-27-2006, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
If I get my sights on a SPitfire I can ALWAYS catch him in a Dora or 109, but the other way round is impossible if the Blue pilot runs. Dora and 109's from 1944 are so much faster.

Climbing to escape is a very risky business as you mo doubt know.

That depends on E State of the planes.

Best climb for Spit depending on model 220-250 km/h while best climb for 109 240 - 260 km/h . It is obvious that a step climb can (co e state assumed) result in a Advantage for the spit in 2 parts. When the 109 follows in same speedrange it climbs not at bestclimb. When it climbs at 109s best climb it cant follow step climb and when not flying circles etc the spit falls behind high a situation that is not comfortable.

For the 190d with its lower rate of climb (1000 to 3000 m) compared to ix it is possible to use inital climb by speeding up . Still same problems apply regarding bestclimbspeed.

stathem
07-27-2006, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
I am convinced that there is a similar combination of throttle/PP that would give the Tempest its maximum speed, but I haven€t found it yet. Perhaps some of the US plane pilots have a similar setting for their Jugs and Mustangs.

The Tempest PP is very odd though. using pp settings similar to an Anton works ok, reducing the PP when diving past 400mph seems to work but like the Tempests trim, different heights seem to affect if differently. Personally I feel the Tempest is most comfortable at its FTH at 18,000ft, 80% PP, 90% throttle, rads close (most important, they give off so much drag). At that height I think its the best fighter in this sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, that sounds familiar. I fly it with PP on a slider (X-52) now and vary it almost constantly in conjucton with throttle, to balance engine temps and performance. With or without WEP I find myself running just below 3000rpm for the most part. The Tempest's the only plane I find myself watching the rev counter and boost gauge like a hawk.

I drop it right down in dives and slam it up to 100 once below 340ish in a zoom climb. I recall running home on the deck with a kill once at 360mph for a long way with it set at about 60%. And the bonus was, at the end of it my engine was cool. As you say, it's a bit odd and requires constant attention.

What with that and the need to balance the sensitve trim with different speeds, rpm, and torque, I think it's the most challenging fighter (late war competitive) to fly and succeed in. I like that but rarely get the time (and thus the patience) to fly it.

-------------

@Kocur, Brain re the 85% thing, I'm still thinking and looking at stuff but I'm away today for the weekend so may not come up with any futher thoughts. Like yopu Kocur, I hope I proper aerodynamist can come in and set us to rights.

WWMaxGunz
07-27-2006, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
If you want to do the sums:

[(25+14.7)*0.85]-14.7 = 19.05 psi (2 dp)
so that 85% power should be about 19 psi.

Now, in reality, 0% throttle is probably about 2psi absolute (ie - 12.7 psi)

{[(25+14.7)-2]*0.85}-14.7 = 17.35 psi (2 dp)

QED

Is it really that simple even staying at sea level?
I had thought that supercharger boost was tied directly to engine output so you get the full
boost only when at full engine rpm.

IF so which I ain't sayin for sure at all then maybe:
([25+14.7)-2]*0.85*0.85)-14.7 = 12.5 psi

Von_Rat
07-27-2006, 08:16 AM
Are you saying htat the MkIX standard can climb faster than the Dora or 109G6A/S??
-------------------------------------------------------

Im saying that a spit9 standard that starts out above and with a e advantage over a dora or g6as can stay above the dora or g6as no matter what they do. if they try to climb up to spit they are hit or are forced to dive. the spit can dive on them and pull up back above them everytime, as long as spit pilot knows his stuff. many times ive seen a single spit hold off multi enemys till they overheat then the spit just climbs away.

if you try the same thing with the dora or g6as above a spit, you'll get a couple of chances to hit spit as he climbs up to you, then you have to dive and run.

Brain32
07-27-2006, 09:07 AM
Are you saying htat the MkIX standard can climb faster than the Dora or 109G6A/S??
Dora and 109's zoom much better, but sustained climb rate changes back and foward with altitude, but the important fact is that looking at pure strait line climb in sterile conditions is wrong. The thing is that let's say you didn't like the developement of the situation so you decide to disengage, first thing, you don't just pull up your nose, first you turn climb in opposite direction, then you climb, if you see the guy is gaining on you, repeat the turn climb again, nothing below you can pull an angle on you, period. Now I see some mention that not being an advantage because somebody may be above you, first if you are going to look at it that way, any Red plane with alt advantage can catch a disengageing FW190 or Me109, what's the difference? In both cases you are outnumbered. But there is, if anybody is actually above you during your spiral climb just keep your speed at 300kmh+, at that speed you can pull such angle that opposing FW/ME pilot has to be either a Jedi Knight or extremly lucky to get a hit on you, if there are two above you, well, feck it, how much planes do you expect to be needed to nail one plane anyway?

Kocur_
07-27-2006, 09:07 AM
And here comes uneven overheat modelling issue again: Spit opponents (of either side of that silly red vs. blue thing) that are faster in horizontal could wisely-separate by climbing at slight angle, staying above Spit's top speed, BUT they will overheat soon, while Spit wont... Decreasing power a bit to cool down will make them slower, which in turn means...

Xiolablu3
07-27-2006, 09:09 AM
Vonrat are you awaree that there is a 'quote' button on each post in the forum?

If you press it, it brings up a reply box with the whole of the guys post in, and you can delete the bits you dont want and leave the bits you want to reply to.

Its the folder with an apostrophe icon at the bottom right of everyones posts.

robban75
07-27-2006, 01:36 PM
If the Fw 190 climb and speed bug was fixed, alot of the Spit issues would not be valied.

Viper2005_
07-27-2006, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Is it really that simple even staying at sea level?
I had thought that supercharger boost was tied directly to engine output so you get the full
boost only when at full engine rpm.

IF so which I ain't sayin for sure at all then maybe:
([25+14.7)-2]*0.85*0.85)-14.7 = 12.5 psi

Well, supercharger boost varies roughly as the square of its rpm, but OTOH, the amount of power required to drive the supercharger varies with something like the cube of its rpm. This means that if you reduce rpm, you'll need less boost to idle, which means that the -2 might become only -1, shifting the curve.

But I doubt that pingu was operating at reduced rpm...

p1ngu666
07-27-2006, 02:40 PM
3000rpm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


also tried mnaul at 100%, abit faster.

imo its cos they fudged the power curve or something, imo it would be pointless todo it on purpose, cos it would take effort, to get it to hit its specs.

but it may have got squished oddly cos its got 100%, not 110% like other planes in the game...

Richardsen
07-27-2006, 06:28 PM
Are you saying htat the MkIX standard can climb faster than the Dora or 109G6A/S??


Spit LF IX climbs faster than both Dora and 109G at low alt.

Spit IX is even a better climber than Spit XIV at low Alt

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/109gtac.html

robban75
07-28-2006, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by Richardsen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Are you saying htat the MkIX standard can climb faster than the Dora or 109G6A/S??


Spit LF IX climbs faster than both Dora and 109G at low alt.

Spit IX is even a better climber than Spit XIV at low Alt

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/109gtac.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The VIII(which has the same performance as the Mk IX ingame) has no problem outclimbing the D-9. Especially since the D-9 is undermodelled in climb and speed. The La-7 on the other hand is highly overmodelled.

HellToupee
07-28-2006, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
Are you saying htat the MkIX standard can climb faster than the Dora or 109G6A/S??
-------------------------------------------------------

Im saying that a spit9 standard that starts out above and with a e advantage over a dora or g6as can stay above the dora or g6as no matter what they do. if they try to climb up to spit they are hit or are forced to dive. the spit can dive on them and pull up back above them everytime, as long as spit pilot knows his stuff. many times ive seen a single spit hold off multi enemys till they overheat then the spit just climbs away.

if you try the same thing with the dora or g6as above a spit, you'll get a couple of chances to hit spit as he climbs up to you, then you have to dive and run.


i encounted a d9 pilot the other day, he engaged me and a tempest and two spits, we were at 2000 meters he was around 3000meters when we reached 4000 meters he was still above and engaging us.


at that speed you can pull such angle that opposing FW/ME pilot has to be either a Jedi Knightp

i myself have no trouble just practice shooting some more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


staying above Spit's top speed, BUT they will overheat soon, while Spit wont...
190s can run at reduced throttle without overheat and still be faster, even in overheat u have along time before any dammage, i fly tempest its never not in overheat :P. The d9 takes forever to overheat and if u fly fast enough it wont ever.

Richardsen
07-28-2006, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Richardsen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Are you saying htat the MkIX standard can climb faster than the Dora or 109G6A/S??


Spit LF IX climbs faster than both Dora and 109G at low alt.

Spit IX is even a better climber than Spit XIV at low Alt

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/109gtac.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The VIII(which has the same performance as the Mk IX ingame) has no problem outclimbing the D-9. Especially since the D-9 is undermodelled in climb and speed. The La-7 on the other hand is highly overmodelled. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know that D9 climb is undermodeld, but so is the spits climb.

WOLFMondo
07-28-2006, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Richardsen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Are you saying htat the MkIX standard can climb faster than the Dora or 109G6A/S??


Spit LF IX climbs faster than both Dora and 109G at low alt.

Spit IX is even a better climber than Spit XIV at low Alt

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/109gtac.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The VIII(which has the same performance as the Mk IX ingame) has no problem outclimbing the D-9. Especially since the D-9 is undermodelled in climb and speed. The La-7 on the other hand is highly overmodelled. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The D9 is within 5% of its real life specs though isnt it?, and both D9's are using the best reference material. My only beef with it is the roll rate is slightly out.

I still think the D9 overall is still the best fighter in this sim. I'd say the Tempest comes close, even if it is a May 1944 variant of a series I in a Series II body.

Von_Rat
07-28-2006, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
[

i encounted a d9 pilot the other day, he engaged me and a tempest and two spits, we were at 2000 meters he was around 3000meters when we reached 4000 meters he was still above and engaging us.

[
.


yeah funny how a d9 needs 1000m adavantage to engauge, spit needs alot less.

so how'd the fight end? i think i can guess, it involves the d9 diving and running right. if d9 did climb away, how many gun passes did he make 1st? i bet not many.

p1ngu666
07-28-2006, 11:17 AM
well, a plane with a better roc can do that.

ive read a few spitfire pilot reports where they where climbing and attacking 190s, in the dogfight the heights soon evened out.

but tbh a d9 is easily capable of taking on a spit at same height, special a non 25lb one

Kocur_
07-28-2006, 11:24 AM
Richardsen! I think you were to quick to say, that Spitfire Mk.IX is undermodelled in climb. Even though I have no idea what is its performance in the game it should not be what you said:

Originally posted by Richardsen:

IRL the spit ix performed 0-10000ft in 2min15sec loaded.


, as you base your claim on


Originally posted by Richardsen:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/bs543.html

Now I took time to read the report.
Firstly you do not want it to reach in 10k ft in 2 mintes 15 seconds, for unless some kind of "imperial minutes" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif were used there it says actually 2.15 minutes :



Time to 10,000 ft...2.15 mins.
Time to 20,000 ft...4.75 mins.

2 minutes and 15/100 minute http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif! Or 2 minutes and 9 seconds!

And then I read the details of the report http://www.spitfireperformance.com/bs543.html.

Supposed Spitfire with Merlin 66 at 18lbs performance actually is NOT performance of this plane. The report deals with three planes with three different engines: RM-10 SM aka Merlin 66, RM-11 aka Merlin 70 and RM-9SM, which was never standarised and produced.


Since the powers of the RM-9SM and RM-10SM (Merlin 66) in F.S. supercharger gear are nominally the same, the best climbing speed found for BS.354 was also used on BS.543 (Merlin 66)

Furthermore this experimental engine was actually running at higher power, than that developed at 18lbs:


Due to the fact that the boost gauges on the RM-9SM and the Merlin 70 engine had rather high negative corrections, these engines were running above their rated powers. In order to compare the performances of the three aircraft it is necessary to correct the measured results by reducing both the rate of climb and the level speed below the full throttle heights.

So the 2.15 minutes resut was not achieved by Spitfire powered by Merlin 66, but it is calculated from performance of a plane powered by another, experimental engine.
To make things worse it appears, that those planes flew with non-standard, experimental props: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/proptypes.jpg

And finally 2.15 minutes can not possibly be result of Spitfire LF Mk.IX at 18lbs, for it took 25lbs to achieve


[height]...[ROC].....[time to]
10000......4745........2.10

as we read in http://www.spitfireperformance.com/jl165.html

Somehow I doubt, that those addtional several hundrets of HP between true Merlin 66 at 18lbs and Merlin at 25lbs could improve time of climb to 10.000ft by merely THREE seconds.

Brain32
07-28-2006, 11:49 AM
but tbh a d9 is easily capable of taking on a spit at same height, special a non 25lb one
Not so sure about that, sure if both go HO and FW makes a fatal hit on a Spitfire then yes...

HellToupee
07-28-2006, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
[

i encounted a d9 pilot the other day, he engaged me and a tempest and two spits, we were at 2000 meters he was around 3000meters when we reached 4000 meters he was still above and engaging us.

[
.


yeah funny how a d9 needs 1000m adavantage to engauge, spit needs alot less.

so how'd the fight end? i think i can guess, it involves the d9 diving and running right. if d9 did climb away, how many gun passes did he make 1st? i bet not many. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

one spit sustained dammage and rtbed, the other had to dive as he was in a slow climb with the guy diving on him and couldnt manover, he made about 5-6 gun passes 3 on me others on the spits, i managed to draw co alt but he went into a zoom i had no energy to follow so i disengaged.

D9 does not need 1000meter advantage to engage, it can engage and disengage at will co alt. But he used 1000 meter advantage to engage 3 of us he tied up 3 of us and maintained that the entire fight and maintained constant attacks on us it was only our warnings to each other on coms that prevented anyone from getting shotdown.

HellToupee
07-28-2006, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> but tbh a d9 is easily capable of taking on a spit at same height, special a non 25lb one
Not so sure about that, sure if both go HO and FW makes a fatal hit on a Spitfire then yes... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spit co alt can only rely on the mistakes of the d9 pilot to get a shot in, u can engage make a few manovers if the spit is even remotly gaining the upper hand disengage with speed then make a reversal and repeat. I managed this vs 3 clan players in a coop of 4 v 4 tho they were flying smarty limiting what i could do they never got a shot in while i got many shots.

The advantages the d9 has over the regular spit are huge to think otherwise is ******ed.

Aaron_GT
07-28-2006, 12:12 PM
Firstly you do not want it to reach in 10k ft in 2 mintes 15 seconds, for unless some kind of "imperial minutes" Wink were used there it says actually 2.15 minutes :


Sometimes in the UK 2.15 can be used to refer to 15 minutes past 2 (i.e. what should really be written as 2:15), and the usage might extend to seconds as well (I never need to quote times that accurately, though, so I am not totally sure, especially what was current in technical circles in the 1940s). I don't know what the usage in the performance documents would have been. If for instances X.Y minutes Y is never greater than 59 then Y probably refers to seconds. If Y is sometimes greater than 59 then it is decimal fractions of a minute.

Von_Rat
07-28-2006, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
[

i encounted a d9 pilot the other day, he engaged me and a tempest and two spits, we were at 2000 meters he was around 3000meters when we reached 4000 meters he was still above and engaging us.

[
.


yeah funny how a d9 needs 1000m adavantage to engauge, spit needs alot less.

so how'd the fight end? i think i can guess, it involves the d9 diving and running right. if d9 did climb away, how many gun passes did he make 1st? i bet not many. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

one spit sustained dammage and rtbed, the other had to dive as he was in a slow climb with the guy diving on him and couldnt manover, he made about 5-6 gun passes 3 on me others on the spits, i managed to draw co alt but he went into a zoom i had no energy to follow so i disengaged.

D9 does not need 1000meter advantage to engage, it can engage and disengage at will co alt. But he used 1000 meter advantage to engage 3 of us he tied up 3 of us and maintained that the entire fight and maintained constant attacks on us it was only our warnings to each other on coms that prevented anyone from getting shotdown. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok you get in a d9 co alt with me in a spit and we'll see how well you can engauge and how many gun passes you get?

i bet you;ll chicken out again,, bawk bawk

_________________________________________________
The advantages the d9 has over the regular spit are huge to think otherwise is ******ed.

__________________________________________________

saying that just proves how big a smacktard you are,,,

what a puss.

HellToupee
07-28-2006, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
[

i encounted a d9 pilot the other day, he engaged me and a tempest and two spits, we were at 2000 meters he was around 3000meters when we reached 4000 meters he was still above and engaging us.

[
.


yeah funny how a d9 needs 1000m adavantage to engauge, spit needs alot less.

so how'd the fight end? i think i can guess, it involves the d9 diving and running right. if d9 did climb away, how many gun passes did he make 1st? i bet not many. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

one spit sustained dammage and rtbed, the other had to dive as he was in a slow climb with the guy diving on him and couldnt manover, he made about 5-6 gun passes 3 on me others on the spits, i managed to draw co alt but he went into a zoom i had no energy to follow so i disengaged.

D9 does not need 1000meter advantage to engage, it can engage and disengage at will co alt. But he used 1000 meter advantage to engage 3 of us he tied up 3 of us and maintained that the entire fight and maintained constant attacks on us it was only our warnings to each other on coms that prevented anyone from getting shotdown. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok you get in a d9 co alt with me in a spit and we'll see how well you can engauge and how many gun passes you get?

i bet you;ll chicken out again,, bawk bawk </div></BLOCKQUOTE>your on

JtD
07-28-2006, 12:25 PM
The other day I got bounced by a 25lbs Spit while flying D-9, dragged it up to 4 k and shot it down. No big deal, really. I'll never hold much respect for planes that are 40 kph slower than my ride.

And with regard to dive performance, as mentioned somewhere in this topic, the 190(A-6) easily outdives the Spit(IXc). Just like it should.

Kocur_
07-28-2006, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Firstly you do not want it to reach in 10k ft in 2 mintes 15 seconds, for unless some kind of "imperial minutes" Wink were used there it says actually 2.15 minutes :


Sometimes in the UK 2.15 can be used to refer to 15 minutes past 2 (i.e. what should really be written as 2:15), and the usage might extend to seconds as well (I never need to quote times that accurately, though, so I am not totally sure, especially what was current in technical circles in the 1940s). I don't know what the usage in the performance documents would have been. If for instances X.Y minutes Y is never greater than 59 then Y probably refers to seconds. If Y is sometimes greater than 59 then it is decimal fractions of a minute. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is why I mentioned supposed "imperial minutes" having somehow more than 60 seconds, as next line after the 2.15 says:


Time to 20,000 ft...4.<span class="ev_code_RED">75</span> mins.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JtD
07-28-2006, 12:39 PM
Why don't you just look at the graph...

here (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/bs543climb.gif)

Aaron_GT
07-28-2006, 01:28 PM
Which is why I mentioned supposed "imperial minutes" having somehow more than 60 seconds, as next line after the 2.15 says:


I dunno - decimalised fractions of minutes sounds more like a European metric thing :-)

But with Y > 59, then it is clear it is decimalised, not seconds.

robban75
07-28-2006, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Richardsen:
I know that D9 climb is undermodeld, but so is the spits climb.

Spit climb is pretty accurate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart11.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart5.jpg

robban75
07-28-2006, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
i encounted a d9 pilot the other day, he engaged me and a tempest and two spits, we were at 2000 meters he was around 3000meters when we reached 4000 meters he was still above and engaging us.



The Fw 190D-9 cannot outclimb a Spitfire ingame. Especially at the altitudes you mention.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart5.jpg

robban75
07-28-2006, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

The D9 is within 5% of its real life specs though isnt it?,

I don't think so. The ingame lines between 1500 and 3500 meters doesn't resemble the real thing at all. Above those alts, they are very accurate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart7.jpg

The speeds are just crazy at most alts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart4.jpg

WOLFMondo
07-28-2006, 02:19 PM
Yes, its out,but what D9 information are both based on? Going by early Dora specs, its too good a performer, using best specs, its worst. Think of the poor Tempest fans who though they might get a real Series II then you'll be shocked.


Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
i encounted a d9 pilot the other day, he engaged me and a tempest and two spits, we were at 2000 meters he was around 3000meters when we reached 4000 meters he was still above and engaging us.



The Fw 190D-9 cannot outclimb a Spitfire ingame. Especially at the altitudes you mention.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart5.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That depends on who is in front. The D9 climbs better at 350-400kph in a shallow climb. At that angle even th La7 have issues following.

p1ngu666
07-28-2006, 02:20 PM
iirec, that minutes etc are imperial, the "60".

the french had a metric time system awhile ago, 100seconds to a minute, and then 10 and 100 units for minutes and hours and stuff.

robban75
07-28-2006, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
And with regard to dive performance, as mentioned somewhere in this topic, the 190(A-6) easily outdives the Spit(IXc). Just like it should.

Not true.

The A-5/6 wont pull away until it reaches speeds over 700km/h.

Alt --- A-4 --- A-5 - D-9'44

5000 - 304 - 304 - 304
4500 - 490 - 492 - 500
4000 - 612 - 613 - 626
3500 - 702 - 706 - 721
3000 - 774 - 780 - 798
2500 - 833 - 844 - 861
2000 - 883 - 895 - 915
1500 - 924 - 939 - 962
1000 - 958 - 975 - 1002
-500 - N/A - N/A - 1035

Alt ---- Vb --- VIII

5000 - 303 - 303
4500 - 493 - 499
4000 - 610 - 618
3500 - 698 - 709
3000 - 758 - 778
2500 - 808 - 836
2000 - 845 - 883
1500 - 873 - 920
1000 - 890 - 941

Viper2005_
07-28-2006, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
Richardsen! I think you were to quick to say, that Spitfire Mk.IX is undermodelled in climb. Even though I have no idea what is its performance in the game it should not be what you said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Richardsen:

IRL the spit ix performed 0-10000ft in 2min15sec loaded.


, as you base your claim on


Originally posted by Richardsen:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/bs543.html

Now I took time to read the report.
Firstly you do not want it to reach in 10k ft in 2 mintes 15 seconds, for unless some kind of "imperial minutes" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif were used there it says actually 2.15 minutes :



Time to 10,000 ft...2.15 mins.
Time to 20,000 ft...4.75 mins.

2 minutes and 15/100 minute http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif! Or 2 minutes and 9 seconds!

And then I read the details of the report http://www.spitfireperformance.com/bs543.html.

Supposed Spitfire with Merlin 66 at 18lbs performance actually is NOT performance of this plane. The report deals with three planes with three different engines: RM-10 SM aka Merlin 66, RM-11 aka Merlin 70 and RM-9SM, which was never standarised and produced.


Since the powers of the RM-9SM and RM-10SM (Merlin 66) in F.S. supercharger gear are nominally the same, the best climbing speed found for BS.354 was also used on BS.543 (Merlin 66)

Furthermore this experimental engine was actually running at higher power, than that developed at 18lbs:


Due to the fact that the boost gauges on the RM-9SM and the Merlin 70 engine had rather high negative corrections, these engines were running above their rated powers. In order to compare the performances of the three aircraft it is necessary to correct the measured results by reducing both the rate of climb and the level speed below the full throttle heights.

So the 2.15 minutes resut was not achieved by Spitfire powered by Merlin 66, but it is calculated from performance of a plane powered by another, experimental engine.
To make things worse it appears, that those planes flew with non-standard, experimental props: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/proptypes.jpg

And finally 2.15 minutes can not possibly be result of Spitfire LF Mk.IX at 18lbs, for it took 25lbs to achieve


[height]...[ROC].....[time to]
10000......4745........2.10

as we read in http://www.spitfireperformance.com/jl165.html

Somehow I doubt, that those addtional several hundrets of HP between true Merlin 66 at 18lbs and Merlin at 25lbs could improve time of climb to 10.000ft by merely THREE seconds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, for one thing,
JL.165 was a rather sub-standard aeroplane, and seems to have been roughly 20 mph slower than it should have been. Rolls-Royce blamed the engine (!), which had lower than average full throttle heights.



A further point of note is the full throttle height at + 18 lbs. of boost which is somewhat lower than has previously been obtained with Merlin 66 engines. A check of the air intake efficiency was taken during the tests, a minimum figure of 94% in level flight being shown at + 25 lbs. sq.inch boost pressure. It would seem therefore that the full throttle height of this engine is low.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/jl165rr.html

And for another, all test data is calculated. Firstly it is corrected to standard day conditions, and secondly it is corrected to a standard aircraft weight (95% of takeoff weight in most reports relating to the Spitfire). Otherwise you'd be comparing Tuesday with Wednesday rather than Aircraft A with Aircraft B.

robban75
07-28-2006, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Yes, its out,but what D9 information are both based on? Going by early Dora specs, its too good a performer, using best specs, its worst. Think of the poor Tempest fans who though they might get a real Series II then you'll be shocked.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
i encounted a d9 pilot the other day, he engaged me and a tempest and two spits, we were at 2000 meters he was around 3000meters when we reached 4000 meters he was still above and engaging us.



The Fw 190D-9 cannot outclimb a Spitfire ingame. Especially at the altitudes you mention.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/chart5.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That depends on who is in front. The D9 climbs better at 350-400kph in a shallow climb. At that angle even th La7 have issues following. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I made some climbtests at those speeds as well. I don't have them here as I'm on vacation, but IIRC they showed that the Spitfire VIII had no trouble keeping up with a D-9 in a climb at 400km/h.

The VIII/IX has twice the climbrate of an Vb at these speeds.

WOLFMondo
07-28-2006, 02:40 PM
I'll have to take your word for it Robban but nothing will shatter my opinion that the Dora is king in this sim.

robban75
07-28-2006, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I'll have to take your word for it Robban but nothing will shatter my opinion that the Dora is king in this sim.

The Dora is right up there with the best, that's for sure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif But the performance bug at such important altitudes is just unbarable at times. I just wish they could fix it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Von_Rat
07-28-2006, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
[

i encounted a d9 pilot the other day, he engaged me and a tempest and two spits, we were at 2000 meters he was around 3000meters when we reached 4000 meters he was still above and engaging us.

[
.


yeah funny how a d9 needs 1000m adavantage to engauge, spit needs alot less.

so how'd the fight end? i think i can guess, it involves the d9 diving and running right. if d9 did climb away, how many gun passes did he make 1st? i bet not many. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

one spit sustained dammage and rtbed, the other had to dive as he was in a slow climb with the guy diving on him and couldnt manover, he made about 5-6 gun passes 3 on me others on the spits, i managed to draw co alt but he went into a zoom i had no energy to follow so i disengaged.

D9 does not need 1000meter advantage to engage, it can engage and disengage at will co alt. But he used 1000 meter advantage to engage 3 of us he tied up 3 of us and maintained that the entire fight and maintained constant attacks on us it was only our warnings to each other on coms that prevented anyone from getting shotdown. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok you get in a d9 co alt with me in a spit and we'll see how well you can engauge and how many gun passes you get?

i bet you;ll chicken out again,, bawk bawk </div></BLOCKQUOTE>your on </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok llets set the rules then, you said you can engauge the spit at will co alt.

so we meet co alt at 2k, headon no guns at merge agreed?

how many passes do you claim to be able to get on spit before you disegauge? i said i could get 2 with dora, so you must get more.

you disengauge and dont immediately rengauge you lose. im not chasing a d9 all over the map, i already know it can run, its your job to prove it can engauge at will co alt.

Xiolablu3
07-28-2006, 08:29 PM
190D9 will lose the fight of course, its not using its strengths if it doesnt keep B&Zing in the vertical.

PLus thre SPitfire will be watching just him all the time, meaning he will simply yank hardere than the 190 adn outturn him each time he tries to shoot.

1:1 in a prolonged dogfight, obviously SPitfire will win. Its up to the Dora to keep the inititive and use his speed to get away and come back with the odds in his favour.

This fight is like making a long distance runner do the 100metres and setting him up versus a Sprinter. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Spitfire is a better close in dogfighter - period. If it wasnt thent he game would be wrong.

WWMaxGunz
07-28-2006, 09:52 PM
Robban do you still have and use the devicelink data from what I sent back?
Check how many seconds each takes to go from 400kph to 500, 600, etc.
I think that that will 'normalize' out the differences in the starts of each
and give a good picture of the runs. The start differences made the tries at
position plotting very iffy, over 100m error margins IIRC.

Back in AEP I had aligned data by time to go from one speed to the next and
then the trend I saw was that top speeds made the real difference. But in
AEP the US fighters and the latewar FW's really ruled. And nothing was as
rock solid stable to extreme speed as the P-47's. The others were shaking
much sooner than the T-Bolts. It ain't the same no more, good results take
a lot more control.

p1ngu666
07-28-2006, 10:23 PM
thats true xio. plus the plane with the better sustained climb is a better dueling plane. hence why the k4 was, and i guess still is the most popular choice for dueling.

a decent dora pilot can easily compete with a spitfire, if the spit has wobbles, in tnb and stuff http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

HellToupee
07-28-2006, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:


you disengauge and dont immediately rengauge you lose. im not chasing a d9 all over the map, i already know it can run, its your job to prove it can engauge at will co alt.

that is forcing the d9 into a fight that favours the spit, the advantage of the d9 is he chooses when to reenter any fight.

Von_Rat
07-28-2006, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:


you disengauge and dont immediately rengauge you lose. im not chasing a d9 all over the map, i already know it can run, its your job to prove it can engauge at will co alt.

that is forcing the d9 into a fight that favours the spit, the advantage of the d9 is he chooses when to reenter any fight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so you agree then that the spit above a d9 can keep up the fight, it dont have to disenguge, but the d9 cant do the same if situation is reversed.

as i said before as long as spit has e and above d9 he can stay above and keep making passes. i said d9 cant do this, you said it can and gave an example, you even implied it could do this co alt. but now you say it cant.

JtD
07-29-2006, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by robban75:

Not true.

The A-5/6 wont pull away until it reaches speeds over 700km/h.

...


Don't come along saying "not true". Your testing is too poor for such a statement. Dive acceleration over speed (as tested in a 30? dive from 7000 meters):

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/d001.JPG

Pretty obivously the 190 outdives the Spit. It has got the better dive acceleration at speeds above 600 kph. I don't know what speed your planes go if you dive, but mine are usually faster than level top speed and almost always in the 600-900 kph region.

Where do you take your "real D-9" data from?

HellToupee
07-29-2006, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:


you disengauge and dont immediately rengauge you lose. im not chasing a d9 all over the map, i already know it can run, its your job to prove it can engauge at will co alt.

that is forcing the d9 into a fight that favours the spit, the advantage of the d9 is he chooses when to reenter any fight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so you agree then that the spit above a d9 can keep up the fight, it dont have to disenguge, but the d9 cant do the same if situation is reversed.

as i said before as long as spit has e and above d9 he can stay above and keep making passes. i said d9 cant do this, you said it can and gave an example, you even implied it could do this co alt. but now you say it cant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No i say D( chooses to engage when it suits it. The d9 can do what ever it likes it always has the option to disengage even from disadvantage, unless its some moron slow at 0meters.

We faced a d9 he kept making passes, we never got into a position to engage him he kept up the fight and we were forced to disengage. You were considering a co alt position were you wanted to castrate the d9s abilities force it into a close in dogfight with the spit which in game and in real life it is at a disadvantage.

robban75
07-29-2006, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
I don't know what speed your planes go if you dive, but mine are usually faster than level top speed and almost always in the 600-900 kph region.

Where do you take your "real D-9" data from?

I dived at 45 degrees.

As you can see I start at 5000m and ~300km/h, and as you can see the Spitfire has a higher speed almost down to 3000m. If both fighters starts a dive at co E and co alt, than the Spitfire will pull away for the first 2000 meters. At the higher speeds the Spitfire cannot catch the Fw 190.

I take my real D-9 data from BB Burys D-9 site, Dietmar Hermans book on the Longnosed Fw, and some from the Spitfire performance site.

Bury's site has been down for quite some time unfortunatelly. It was really good.

robban75
07-29-2006, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Robban do you still have and use the devicelink data from what I sent back?


I'm afraid not Max. My harddrive crashed a while back and I lost all info. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

robban75
07-29-2006, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Spitfire is a better close in dogfighter - period. If it wasnt thent he game would be wrong.

In this game, yes. But in real life I don't think turning ability is all that it's cranked up to be ingame. It's not like the Fw 190 couldn't turn.

The only thing the Spitfire has over the D-9 is sustained turn rate at low speeds. The D-9 has roll rate, level speed, level/dive acceleration and zoom climb. Sustained climb favors the Spitfire only at very high altitudes.

I see nothing wrong with the Spitfires performance ingame. It's speed and climb performance seems to match real numbers. The ingame Fw 190D-9 is not matching real life performance at the most important altitudes. Turnrate is also far off from real numbers(from the russians). This makes the Spitfire seem more lethal. The lack of torque also aids turnfighters. If torque was added, the Spit(109/La) would not be able to pull angles and climb at such low speeds as they are capable of now. Just try a Yak-3/9 and you'll see what I mean.

JtD
07-29-2006, 02:55 AM
Robban, sorry for my short and sulky reply. I had just gotten up. At that stage of a day, I can't take "you are wrong"'s or "Not true"'s very well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

What you have in your data is 10 points of data showing speed over altitude. The figure you need for a statement "at this and that speed plane a outdives another" is a dive accelleration over current speed. You cannot derive such a statement from your data very well, 1st for the low resolution and 2nd because your data does not seperate low speed acceleration from high speed or dive accelleration. What you'd need to do is look at your points that way:

Between 4500 meters and 4000 the Spit gains 119kph, the FW 122, 4000-3500 Spit 88 FW 90, 3500-3000 Spit 60 FW 72...

So from 4500 meters on, the accelleration of the FW in a 45? dive is better than the Spit's and the FW thus outdives the Spit.

This is what I have done for my picture, but I used 500 data points. Also, a 30? dive gives a drag free unpowered body a dive accelleration of 0.5g or 4.91 m/s². Or else, when my lines reach 4.91 m/s² drag equals thrust and the current speed is about level top speed. Below that speed, a good power/weight ratio is important, the Spit has the advantage. Above that speed, a good weight/drag ratio counts, and the Focke Wulf is better.

At 200 m/s or 720 kph the FW accelerates with 4.61 m/s², while the Spit manages 4.29 m/s². That is a 7% advantage. Not much, but considerable. And finally looking at the kinetic energy of the two planes, the FW really shines. Within one second starting at 720 kph, it gains 3950kJ, while the Spit only gains 2820kJ, a very nice 40% advantage.

I am sure you can imagine what this energy will do for you if both planes level out, and all that energy is only used to overcome drag, which btw. is lower with the FW than with the Spit anyways.

HellToupee
07-29-2006, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
In this game, yes. But in real life I don't think turning ability is all that it's cranked up to be ingame. It's not like the Fw 190 couldn't turn.

The only thing the Spitfire has over the D-9 is sustained turn rate at low speeds. The D-9 has roll rate, level speed, level/dive acceleration and zoom climb. Sustained climb favors the Spitfire only at very high altitudes.


Spit has better power to weight better sustained climb at even lower alts around 4700-4800ft/min and probly much better at lower speeds, level speed isnt going to help in a close in fight dive and zoom are hardly manovers u will keeping up.

Von_Rat
07-29-2006, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:


you disengauge and dont immediately rengauge you lose. im not chasing a d9 all over the map, i already know it can run, its your job to prove it can engauge at will co alt.

that is forcing the d9 into a fight that favours the spit, the advantage of the d9 is he chooses when to reenter any fight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so you agree then that the spit above a d9 can keep up the fight, it dont have to disenguge, but the d9 cant do the same if situation is reversed.

as i said before as long as spit has e and above d9 he can stay above and keep making passes. i said d9 cant do this, you said it can and gave an example, you even implied it could do this co alt. but now you say it cant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No i say D( chooses to engage when it suits it. The d9 can do what ever it likes it always has the option to disengage even from disadvantage, unless its some moron slow at 0meters.

We faced a d9 he kept making passes, we never got into a position to engage him he kept up the fight and we were forced to disengage. You were considering a co alt position were you wanted to castrate the d9s abilities force it into a close in dogfight with the spit which in game and in real life it is at a disadvantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and that d9 had a 1k advantage. i said it needs that 1k, and you said no it doesnt.

so prove that it doesnt need that 1k advantage, to keep making passes and force spit to disengauge 1st, as in your fight.

a spit can keep making passes without a 1k advantage, and not run away, the d9 cant. that was my point from the begining. that a spit thats higher can control the fight with much less advantage and not have to run, the d9 cant without a massive advantage. if you think d9 can keep making passes without 1k advantage and without running away, you have to prove it to me.

JtD
07-29-2006, 03:35 AM
What I do in a D-9 against Spits, no matter if 25lbs or not, is a head on at about 4000 meters with both planes co alt and at top speed. Due to my higher speed I have a 25% energy advantage. I thus zoom up to an altitude advantage of about 400 meters and from there I dictate the fight. All the Spit can do is to bleed E in tight turns to avoid my repeated attacks, where I improve my E advantage with every pass. Not that hard, really.

robban75
07-29-2006, 03:36 AM
Hi JtD, no problem, it's frustrating sometimes I know. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I got you.

I changed my chart so that you can see the km/h gained for every 500m.

Alt --- A-5 - D-9 - VIII

5000 --- 0 --- 0 --- 0
4500 - 188 - 196 - 195
4000 - 121 - 126 - 119
3500 -- 93 -- 95 -- 91
3000 -- 74 -- 77 -- 69
2500 -- 64 -- 63 -- 58
2000 -- 51 -- 54 -- 47
1500 -- 44 -- 47 -- 37
1000 -- 36 -- 40 -- 21

The Fw 190's both A and D has a higher speed gain throughout the altitudes. The VIII gains alot of speed over the A in the beginning of the dive. But the rest of the way the A-5 is superior. It's strange though that the A-5 has to dive 2000m before it reaches the same speed as the VIII, considering that the VIII only is superior for short moment in the beginning. If one starts at low speed that is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

HellToupee
07-29-2006, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
What I do in a D-9 against Spits, no matter if 25lbs or not, is a head on at about 4000 meters with both planes co alt and at top speed. Due to my higher speed I have a 25% energy advantage. I thus zoom up to an altitude advantage of about 400 meters and from there I dictate the fight. All the Spit can do is to bleed E in tight turns to avoid my repeated attacks, where I improve my E advantage with every pass. Not that hard, really.

see vonny JTD is on to it.

The-Pizza-Man
07-29-2006, 04:35 AM
It would be interesting to see what the difference would be in a zero g dive

JtD
07-29-2006, 04:36 AM
All I can say is it works. Have done it numerous times over the last couple of weeks. Many Spit pilots seem to think their plane can do anything, but it can't.

Richardsen
07-29-2006, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robban75:
In this game, yes. But in real life I don't think turning ability is all that it's cranked up to be ingame. It's not like the Fw 190 couldn't turn.

The only thing the Spitfire has over the D-9 is sustained turn rate at low speeds. The D-9 has roll rate, level speed, level/dive acceleration and zoom climb. Sustained climb favors the Spitfire only at very high altitudes.


Spit has better power to weight better sustained climb at even lower alts around 4700-4800ft/min and probly much better at lower speeds, level speed isnt going to help in a close in fight dive and zoom are hardly manovers u will keeping up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spitfire LF IX was a king at low alt climb and D9 was not that good, it had good zoom.

The 109K was also better than D9 at sustained climb, but 25lbs Spit wast better than 109K at low alt climb.

Xiolablu3
07-29-2006, 04:47 AM
It IS hard versus a Spitfire in a 190D9, especially if its 1vs1 and the Spitfire has seen you.

He can just pull a tighht urn and its very hard to get a lead on it. Thats the advantage of a better turning plane. 'BREAK!' mean turn as hard as youcan to avoid the enemy.

HAts off to the DOra pilots. It IS harder in the Dora versus a Spitfire, especially for a newish pilot, you must use your brain a lot more. Not turning as well is the price you pay for your extra speed.

However the Dora DOES have big advanatges like being able to determine when/if the fight happens.

Basically you can be untoochable in a Dora, if you take few risks, but of course this is unlikely to get you a kill. You are SAFER in the Dora than the SPitfire becasue you can always disengage easily. However the SPitfire has the advanateg in a TnB close in dogfight.

The turning vs Speed battle is the one which makes this game so interesting. Hats off to the energy fighter guys becasue it IS harder to pull offf, but also more satisfying and MUCH safer.

Richardsen
07-29-2006, 04:51 AM
http://www.chuckhawks.com/focke-wulf_190.htm

Climb to 19,685 feet took 7.1 minutes. FW190D9
Climb to 20000 feet took 4.75 min. Spit LF IX

Best climb rate was up to 3,642 ft./min FW 190 D12

Xiolablu3
07-29-2006, 05:09 AM
Wow thats a pretty poor climb rate for the Dora.

Is that correct? I thought it would be much closer to the Spit IX as the Spit is over a year older.

Maybe a time to 4000m would be a better comparison as the FW190 as not great up high.

JtD
07-29-2006, 05:33 AM
This is a climb rate figure for a lower boost setting than we have in game. The one in game reaches 6 km in 4:30 mins or so and max roc is around 4700 ft/min.

Richardsen
07-29-2006, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Wow thats a pretty poor climb rate for the Dora.

Is that correct? I thought it would be much closer to the Spit IX as the Spit is over a year older.

Maybe a time to 4000m would be a better comparison as the FW190 as not great up high.

Its not that FW 190 is bad, but spits climb that is so great.

A spit LF IX outclimbs a Spit XIV at low alt.

Spitfire is a short range interceptor, Climb performance is very important.

WOLFMondo
07-29-2006, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:


However the Dora DOES have big advanatges like being able to determine when/if the fight happens.

One on one the Spitfire has a huge advantage, 2 on 2 and the Doras control the fight completely, at least in my experiance. Its the same with P47's at higher altitudes. 2 vs 2 they dominate.

Kernow
07-29-2006, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
However the Dora DOES have big advanatges like being able to determine when/if the fight happens.

Basically you can be untoochable in a Dora, if you take few risks, but of course this is unlikely to get you a kill. You are SAFER in the Dora than the SPitfire becasue you can always disengage easily. However the SPitfire has the advanateg in a TnB close in dogfight.


And that sums it up very nicely. Most people want 3-4 kill sorties or at least think that would be very nice. The idea of surviving while getting 0-1 kills per sortie, with 2-3 kill sorties the exception just doesn't catch on.

Xiolablu3
07-29-2006, 06:40 AM
I honestly thought that the Dora would climb better than the MkIX Spit.

My opinons so far have been based on that assumption , which is obviously wrong. Sorry if I wrote any misleading things.

I didnt realise the SPitfire was quite THAT good in real life.

Monty_Thrud
07-29-2006, 06:56 AM
Crikey!, i'm happy if i get one kill and rtb in my Spitfire...if i get two i'm chuffed to bits, three and i'm cracking open the champagne...four...i tend to pass out... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Brain32
07-29-2006, 06:59 AM
For me, 5 is nothing unusal, it just depends on how Blue play in given sortie, if they are smart, I'm quite happy with 2

p1ngu666
07-29-2006, 07:34 AM
5 is achiveable in most planes, if everything goes right for u. other times everything goes wrong and u struggle.

dora is a ok close in dogfighter, but its best when u can stretch its legs.

its like a f1 car round a go cart track, vs a go cart. the spit is the go cart http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

dora is the best ingame imo, speed, handling, flows so nicely, firepower.

nothing in the game has a similer package without flaws. tempest is bbq and requires alot of attention, p51 oh my wing has fallen off, yak9u, u only fly it cos it looks sexeh, spit25lb, nice at your warclouds height, but its no XIV http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Von_Rat
07-29-2006, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
What I do in a D-9 against Spits, no matter if 25lbs or not, is a head on at about 4000 meters with both planes co alt and at top speed. Due to my higher speed I have a 25% energy advantage. I thus zoom up to an altitude advantage of about 400 meters and from there I dictate the fight. All the Spit can do is to bleed E in tight turns to avoid my repeated attacks, where I improve my E advantage with every pass. Not that hard, really.

see vonny JTD is on to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


a smart spit pilot wont bleed his e, he;ll dodge and climb. im not saying a d9 cant get lucky and take out spit in 1st couple of passes if he's co alt, im saying a d9 Co alt or only a little above, cant make multi gun passes like a spit can and still not extend.

this whole discussion stated with me pointing out that spits can get away or control fight if their smart. they arent automactically dead if outnumbered in enemy territory, if their smart they can escape, without clouds.

this is what i see smart spit pilots do. the noobs, meaning vast majority, like the ones jtd fought blow their e and die.

robban75
07-29-2006, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Wow thats a pretty poor climb rate for the Dora.

Is that correct?

Yes, at Start und Notleistung. It needed 7.1 minutes to reach 7000m. The ingame D-9 needs 8 minutes to reach 7000m. So it's quite undermodelled. But that is probably due to the performance bug.

At Sonder Notleistung, the D-9 could reach 5000m in 4 minutes. Best climbrate was close to 4400ft/min.

The D-9 was a good climber. Especially with MW50.

Kocur_
07-29-2006, 09:12 AM
Its good to remember what Robban just said above: in most 'popular' sources authors do not make it clear at what engine settings certain performance was achieved. It goes not only to German planes, where they usually give climb performance at Start und Notleistung, but to US too, where performace for Military Power - in both cases those are max continous powers. Those planes naturally could also climb at absolute top powers, limited in time, called Sonder Notleistung or Start und Notleistung and War Emergency Power respecively.

HellToupee
07-29-2006, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
a smart spit pilot wont bleed his e, he;ll dodge and climb.

Dodging even in a spitfire bleeds alot of E if the pilot tries to hard to conserve his e or alt then it should be too hard to shoot.


im saying a d9 Co alt or only a little above, cant make multi gun passes like a spit can and still not extend.

A spit cannot make multi gun passes vs a smart d9, it cant make a single one from co alt, or just slightly above if you do not wish it. If you wish to be more agressive in manovring attributes turn and climb advantages of real life spit and ingame apply more, u can more easily point ur guns at him but u must rely on his mistake to get those guns in range.

JtD
07-29-2006, 10:18 AM
Spitfire choice, Von_Rat:

1st) blow your E evading me and die
2nd) conserve your E by not evading me and die.

Brain32
07-29-2006, 11:30 AM
3rd) Initiate a climbing turn during which you can not gain angle on me, and end up co-alt at you 6 forcing you to dive away to saftey...

JtD
07-29-2006, 11:36 AM
Climbing turn...most likely category 1.

You really think you can do a tight high speed 360? turn without blowing E?

Well, unless you take a wide slow speed some? turn, but this falls into catergory 2.

I know I am simplifying, but really, the D-9 is very good.

HellToupee
07-29-2006, 12:00 PM
catagory 3) make comment on chat about 190 being a noob plane and is overmodeled.

Attacking 190 will spiral into the ground allowing u to climb as he is provoked into a rage too busy typing a reply.

Brain32
07-29-2006, 12:32 PM
catagory 3) make comment on chat about 190 being a noob plane and is overmodeled, then get blown of the sky because you were typing instead of checking your six...
Fixed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gumtree
07-29-2006, 08:40 PM
Hey all !
more and more I read these posts and enjoy the fair banter. It is a great forum when we don't have the Blue v Red rubbish that goes on here most of the time.

This debate has been run over 8 pages so far and very little whinning or insults have been thrown around,well done to all and it is quite significant that the usual suspects that degrade a reasonable discusion into the mire of name calling and slander have been absent.

What have I concluded from this well informed series of posts.
1:The Spitfire is an thoroughbred weapon that if it can lure its oppositon into a fight of E-bleeding manouvre, may very well come out on top.

2:The D-9 is a beast with brutal qualities of fire power and sheer brute force in reguards to top speed and B&Z tactics.

The Spit can fight the Dora but only when the Dora wants to fight.If the Dora wants to leave the fight and has a reserve of energy then there is little the Spit can do to prolong the fight.

Whenever I have managed to bounce a Dora in a Spit if I don't get it first pass then the extending Dora can evade with a superior roll rate that increases exponentialy with increasing speed.

On the other hand I don't fly the Dora well ,yes I get the occasional kills from cutting attacks with speed but I still take my hat of to the regular jocks that fly her.

The Dora is good.....very good you just need skill and patients -lots of patients- to get the best results from her.

The Spit on the other hand is an easier mount to fly, but this boost to your flying confidance tends to get the inexperianced into more trouble than their abilities can cope with.

What ever your favourite mount may be it is good to see a forum where we don't slander others simply because they choose a plane that may or maynot meet your approval.

Von_Rat
07-29-2006, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
a smart spit pilot wont bleed his e, he;ll dodge and climb.

Dodging even in a spitfire bleeds alot of E if the pilot tries to hard to conserve his e or alt then it should be too hard to shoot.


im saying a d9 Co alt or only a little above, cant make multi gun passes like a spit can and still not extend.

A spit cannot make multi gun passes vs a smart d9, it cant make a single one from co alt, or just slightly above if you do not wish it. If you wish to be more agressive in manovring attributes turn and climb advantages of real life spit and ingame apply more, u can more easily point ur guns at him but u must rely on his mistake to get those guns in range. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

just stay below d9s nose, you wont bleed much e dodging then. he has to shoot blind, he might get lucky, but thats just luck.

the only reason a spit wont get multi gun passes on a smart d9 pilot is because the d9 will run away.

in the same situation a spit dont have to run, he can dodge and climb, and the d9 has to pray for a lucky hit before spit gets co alt. once spits is co alt the d9 runs.

im waiting for one, just one, regular fw pilot who's name i recognise and flys cockpit, to say he can fight a spit at co alt and make multi gun passes and not run away. even hell said he'd extend, and that to fight at co alt with a d9 was fighting the spits fight.

as i said before yes d9 can get lucky and hit spit fast, but if he doesnt he runs.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-29-2006, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
For me, 5 is nothing unusal, it just depends on how Blue play in given sortie, if they are smart, I'm quite happy with 2

I looked through your stats at WC Brain, and you have not one sortie in a spitfire where you had 5 kills. Not a SINGLE sortie.

On the other hand, you have a 7, 6 and numerous 4 kill sorties in the 190. So, by your logic, the 190 has to be uber because you cannot achieve those results in any other plane.

SPaRX

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-29-2006, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:


this whole discussion stated with me pointing out that spits can get away or control fight if their smart. they arent automactically dead if outnumbered in enemy territory, if their smart they can escape, without clouds.



If a spitfire gets away from even 2 LW planes in this situation, it is not due to his planes abilities. It is purely due to he skill as a pilot and selecting the proper time to disengage and get away. PERIOD.

Von_Rat
07-30-2006, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:


this whole discussion stated with me pointing out that spits can get away or control fight if their smart. they arent automactically dead if outnumbered in enemy territory, if their smart they can escape, without clouds.



If a spitfire gets away from even 2 LW planes in this situation, it is not due to his planes abilities. It is purely due to he skill as a pilot and selecting the proper time to disengage and get away. PERIOD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I already said in a previous post that IF the spit puilot knew his stuff he could get away. your not saying anything i havent already.

people were saying its impossiable, its not if spit pilot is good.

a d9 pilot has to be good to get away to. if you just point nose down and run spit will shoot you before you gain separation. not to mention running from tempest.

robban75
07-30-2006, 01:02 AM
Good post, Gumtree! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

HellToupee
07-30-2006, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:

a d9 pilot has to be good to get away to. if you just point nose down and run spit will shoot you before you gain separation. not to mention running from tempest.

spit will only be able to shoot you if he is already in guns range and in shooting position, even then all u need to do is rolling dive. Running is simple the only skill is knowing when its right time and vs what opponent,eg running from a good tempest at pilot is a no no he will catch you at many alts.

Von_Rat
07-30-2006, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:

a d9 pilot has to be good to get away to. if you just point nose down and run spit will shoot you before you gain separation. not to mention running from tempest.

spit will only be able to shoot you if he is already in guns range and in shooting position, even then all u need to do is rolling dive. Running is simple the only skill is knowing when its right time and vs what opponent,eg running from a good tempest at pilot is a no no he will catch you at many alts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
same can be said about spit disengauging.




d9 will only be able to shoot you if he's already in guns range and in shooting position. even then all you need to do is spiral and climb. only skill is knowing right time and vs what opponent.eg climbing from a good k4 pilot is a no no, he'll catch you at many alts.

HellToupee
07-30-2006, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:

a d9 pilot has to be good to get away to. if you just point nose down and run spit will shoot you before you gain separation. not to mention running from tempest.

spit will only be able to shoot you if he is already in guns range and in shooting position, even then all u need to do is rolling dive. Running is simple the only skill is knowing when its right time and vs what opponent,eg running from a good tempest at pilot is a no no he will catch you at many alts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
same can be said about spit disengauging.




d9 will only be able to shoot you if he's already in guns range and in shooting position. even then all you need to do is spiral and climb. only skill is knowing right time and vs what opponent.eg climbing from a good k4 pilot is a no no, he'll catch you at many alts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well no unless the spit has an energy advantage hes not going to get away from the d9, k4 climbs faster than a tempest but if he tries to climb without already pocessing an advantage in speed or alt he will not escape the guns.

Gumtree
07-30-2006, 02:08 AM
Thx robban mate,
I didn't realise how much I waffled on till I posted ..sheeeesh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

JtD
07-30-2006, 02:12 AM
Climbing, aka as getting slow, is never as safe as running or diving.

Kernow
07-30-2006, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
Climbing, aka as getting slow, is never as safe as running or diving.

Yes, the easiest get-away - whatever the match-up - is to just run away. And there's nothing wrong with that. My reply to anyone who whines that you're running away is, 'next time pick a faster plane.' They won't because they like a great turn. We all get a choice at the briefing screen.

Climbing is probably the most problematic get away. Even if the time difference between the 2 ac remains constant the bandit will close the range initially, as he'll be faster at any instant. Sure, once you get a spiral climb - or climbing scissors - established you're safe and in a position of increasing advantage if the bandit stays in the fight. Likewise a horizontal turn only plays for time as a 'get-away.'

Von_Rat
07-30-2006, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:

a d9 pilot has to be good to get away to. if you just point nose down and run spit will shoot you before you gain separation. not to mention running from tempest.

spit will only be able to shoot you if he is already in guns range and in shooting position, even then all u need to do is rolling dive. Running is simple the only skill is knowing when its right time and vs what opponent,eg running from a good tempest at pilot is a no no he will catch you at many alts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
same can be said about spit disengauging.




d9 will only be able to shoot you if he's already in guns range and in shooting position. even then all you need to do is spiral and climb. only skill is knowing right time and vs what opponent.eg climbing from a good k4 pilot is a no no, he'll catch you at many alts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well no unless the spit has an energy advantage hes not going to get away from the d9, k4 climbs faster than a tempest but if he tries to climb without already pocessing an advantage in speed or alt he will not escape the guns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so your saying if d9 is co e with spit, spit is dead?

as i said before ill go co e with you in d9 me in spit.

i bet you its the d9 that runs.

JtD
07-30-2006, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by Kernow:

My reply to anyone who whines that you're running away is, 'next time pick a faster plane.'

My reply to "don't run, come back and fight" usually is "sure, if you don't turn". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

After all, I picked my plane for the speed as he picked his for the turn.


by Von_Rat:

i bet you its the d9 that runs.

I am at least certain you won't see a Spit running. Simply because it can't.

Kernow
07-30-2006, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:

as i said before ill go co e with you in d9 me in spit.

i bet you its the d9 that runs.

But surely that's just stating the obvious for any 'faster plane' v 'better turning plane' match up? A vastly superior climb rate might make for an exception in some cases, but generally if you want to win that sort of 'fair' fight you pick a 'T&B' fighter.

Spitfire co-alt with a Zero can't stay in the fight more than a pass or 2 before having to run.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
I already said in a previous post that IF the spit puilot knew his stuff he could get away. your not saying anything i havent already.

people were saying its impossiable, its not if spit pilot is good.



You are saying that now, but in other post you are saying something different. Such as:


Von_Rat:

so your saying if d9 is co e with spit, spit is dead?

as i said before ill go co e with you in d9 me in spit.

i bet you its the d9 that runs.

You make this post stating that a D9 has no chance against a Spit in a Co-E state, implying that the Spit will win this everytime because it is a better plane. This is not true. The D9 has many advantages over the Spit, NOT JUST SPEED. It comes down to the pilot, NOT THE PLANE. PERIOD!

You are not being consistant with your statements.


Von_Rat:

this is what i see smart __________ pilots do. the noobs, meaning vast majority, like the ones jtd fought blow their e and die.

I took the liberty of editing your quote there. Just fill in the blank with any flyable in the sim and this statment will hold true. Why? Because it is the PILOT, NOT THE PLANE.

Let's look at it in a "test tube" enviornment (meaning controlled conditions). We have two pilots with EQUAL skills as Virtual Combat Pilots. Each pilot has a thorough understanding of his plane and the plane he is fighting. They fully understand what they can and cannot do against their opponant. This situation would most likely result in a 50/50 draw no matter WHAT two planes you pit against each other within reason (meaning you dont put a P80 against a zero). Every engagement will come down to the pilot that loses is the pilot that makes the mistake first. It will have nothing to do with which plane the pilots are in.


You really cannot say that x plane is faster, climbs better, turns better or whatever then y plane. It all depends on the conditions. There some comparisions you can make absolute statements about, but you do not find that very often. And again, I am talking about historic matchups. For example:

1. You can say that the D9 is faster then the Spit IXc.
2. You cannot say that the Spit IXc outclimbs the D9. Climbrate depends on speed and alt. At some speed and alts the D9 outclimbs the Spit, at other is vice versa.
3. You cannot say that the Spit out turns the D9 either. It depends on what speed you are talking about.


Personally, I am getting pretty tired of all this "x" plane is uber and a noob plane posts. There is no plane in this sim when place in a comtemporay situation will Dominate everytime. There are pilots that when placed in comtemporary situations that WILL though.

p1ngu666
07-30-2006, 08:23 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif @ running from a tempest

its close, but u can.

hope we get 11lb, and 13lbs of boost http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Monty_Thrud
07-30-2006, 08:52 AM
You know ...this is the same old same old...the Spitfire was a noob friendly aircraft...you know this, i know this but people still talk like it wasnt...i remember when the Bif-0-nine was whined about being too good, the Bif pilots would scream...but they are teh old timer experten...its the pilot, its the pilot...now the Spitfire gets the flak and everyone who uses it is a n00b...no one who flys the Spitfire could possible be an expert VP,...could they?... after all, its only just arrived...

...would love to see the +11Lbs Tempest, wasnt that the norm after March'44?

Von_Rat
07-30-2006, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von_Rat:
I already said in a previous post that IF the spit puilot knew his stuff he could get away. your not saying anything i havent already.

people were saying its impossiable, its not if spit pilot is good.





You are not being consistant with your statements.



heres my statment to from previous post to prove what i said,
________________________________________________
Im saying that a spit9 standard that starts out above and with a e advantage over a dora or g6as can stay above the dora or g6as no matter what they do. if they try to climb up to spit they are hit or are forced to dive. the spit can dive on them and pull up back above them everytime, as long as spit pilot knows his stuff.
_______________________________________________

its totally consistant with your 1st qoute of me.

Von_Rat
07-30-2006, 09:59 AM
You are saying that now, but in other post you are saying something different. Such as:


Von_Rat:

so your saying if d9 is co e with spit, spit is dead?

as i said before ill go co e with you in d9 me in spit.

i bet you its the d9 that runs.

You make this post stating that a D9 has no chance against a Spit in a Co-E state, implying that the Spit will win this everytime because it is a better plane. This is not true. The D9 has many advantages over the Spit, NOT JUST SPEED. It comes down to the pilot, NOT THE PLANE. PERIOD!
________________________________________________

so you mean a d9 can stay and fight co e???

thats what helltoupee implied, thats why i asked him.

it wasnt a statment it was a question, didnt you notice the question mark.

where'd i say spit is the better plane???

d9 is best plane imo, we're discussing advantages and disadvantages in differant situations, thats all.

Brain32
07-30-2006, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
For me, 5 is nothing unusal, it just depends on how Blue play in given sortie, if they are smart, I'm quite happy with 2

I looked through your stats at WC Brain, and you have not one sortie in a spitfire where you had 5 kills. Not a SINGLE sortie.

On the other hand, you have a 7, 6 and numerous 4 kill sorties in the 190. So, by your logic, the 190 has to be uber because you cannot achieve those results in any other plane.

SPaRX </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting, while truth is my best sortie was in 190D9, it was 8 kills not 7, I also quite clearly remember downing 5 guys on several occasions with the Spit, landed and voila 500points...well...nevermind...
Also Sparx, I'm sure I already told you what's my problem but I will again. I am sick and tired of listening and reading about the "poor little inferiour Spitfire" and about the all so great FW190 k/d ratio on dogfight servers. My dissadisfaction is not so much in Spits performance it's in relative performance between the Spitfire and it's opponent planes, Spit is modelled spot-on or better, while for FW190 we have low or worst case scenario, and sometimes even below that.
For example did you know that I was actually actively searching for data about Spit+25 when CrazyIvan said Oleg needs data? I thought, what harm can a bit faster Spit do? God, was I wrong http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif To tell you the whole truth I would much rather have unbanned Spit25 and even more SpitMk14 modelled BUT with correct FW190, than have a situation we have now.
But anyway you like it guys, I'm just one individual http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Von_Rat
07-30-2006, 10:11 AM
Von_Rat:

this is what i see smart __________ pilots do. the noobs, meaning vast majority, like the ones jtd fought blow their e and die.

I took the liberty of editing your quote there. Just fill in the blank with any flyable in the sim and this statment will hold true. Why? Because it is the PILOT, NOT THE PLANE.

__________________________________________________ __

no sometimes its the plane, i got beaten by a guy in a yak3p, 3 times in a row same guy shoots me down, then i got in a yak3p, and shot his yak down 3 times in a row. i passed on shootin other yaks just to get him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Von_Rat
07-30-2006, 10:20 AM
Personally, I am getting pretty tired of all this "x" plane is uber and a noob plane posts. There is no plane in this sim when place in a comtemporay situation will Dominate everytime. There are pilots that when placed in comtemporary situations that WILL though.

were did i say that spit was uber, i do have some issues with its fm, but we arent even discussing that here.

i still say its a noob plane because of all the noobs that fly it, and take advantage of some issues with its fm,dm.

if you remember i was against removing spit25 from wc. i said then that i had no trouble killing it. check my stats and posts from then.

but just because i don't think its uber, and can kill it, doesnt mean i cant critise it or noobs that fly it.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 10:28 AM
Von_Rat:

Im saying that a spit9 standard that starts out above and with a e advantage over a dora or g6as can stay above the dora or g6as no matter what they do. if they try to climb up to spit they are hit or are forced to dive. the spit can dive on them and pull up back above them everytime, as long as spit pilot knows his stuff.

Ummm.... Yes. And does this seem not right?? He has more energy. There is nothing wrong with that.


Brain32:

I am sick and tired of listening and reading about the "poor little inferiour Spitfire" and about the all so great FW190 k/d ratio on dogfight servers.

My dissadisfaction is not so much in Spits performance it's in relative performance between the Spitfire and it's opponent planes, Spit is modelled spot-on or better, while for FW190 we have low or worst case scenario, and sometimes even below that.

Well, I am tired of seeing posts about how the FW series is totally porked and not as good as everyone says it is. They good planes and extremely competitive.

I agree with you that there are some 190s that are not performing spot on to their data sheets, but they are not that far off. I would have to look through all the tests done, but if I remember correctly it's within 10% of real data. That is not that far off. This does not make it an inferior plane by any means. The 190s are and always have been very good planes in this sim.


Brain32:

For example did you know that I was actually actively searching for data about Spit+25 when CrazyIvan said Oleg needs data? I thought, what harm can a bit faster Spit do? God, was I wrong To tell you the whole truth I would much rather have unbanned Spit25 and even more SpitMk14 modelled BUT with correct FW190, than have a situation we have now.
But anyway you like it guys, I'm just one individual.

Wrong about what? The only "unbalance" that the Spit25 created is in the minds of the players. It is a perception. Everyone is so hellbent on the "spit is uber" mentality that they are beat before they even click the fly button. They are not beaten by the Spit25, they are beaten by themselves. Since the Spit25 or even the entire Spit series inclusion into the sim, I have yet to see any evidence that the Spit series is just that good. Yes, they are good planes, but they are not "over the top" good. I have seen countless posts claiming that spits out number 3-1 and even as high as 5-1 will win most of the time. I have yet to see anyone post a track proving it.
I have seen post after post that the spit25 in a 1v1 will win almost everytime as well. I have yet to see anyone prove that as well. I have spent Hours on servers flying and fighting spits and spit25s and I have yet to experience what is being claimed in forums across the internet. So, what am I missing? If it's true what everyone is saying about the spits, then please, someone show me so I can too believe.

FI.RULES
07-30-2006, 10:30 AM
What or who is a n00b?
Is it a general term or is it something/someone specific?
please explain....

Von_Rat
07-30-2006, 10:34 AM
Von_Rat:

Im saying that a spit9 standard that starts out above and with a e advantage over a dora or g6as can stay above the dora or g6as no matter what they do. if they try to climb up to spit they are hit or are forced to dive. the spit can dive on them and pull up back above them everytime, as long as spit pilot knows his stuff.


Ummm.... Yes. And does this seem not right?? He has more energy. There is nothing wrong with that.


exactly, there is nothing wrong with it but some people were not agreeing. they were saying spit couldnt stay above, and thus get away.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Von_Rat:

this is what i see smart __________ pilots do. the noobs, meaning vast majority, like the ones jtd fought blow their e and die.

I took the liberty of editing your quote there. Just fill in the blank with any flyable in the sim and this statment will hold true. Why? Because it is the PILOT, NOT THE PLANE.

__________________________________________________ __

no sometimes its the plane, i got beaten by a guy in a yak3p, 3 times in a row same guy shoots me down, then i got in a yak3p, and shot his yak down 3 times in a row. i passed on shootin other yaks just to get him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. It quite simply meant that he did not know how to fight against a Yak3p. He did not posses the skill set or ability to fight you in that Yak3p probably because he had not fought a Yak3 agains a Yak3p.

Lets make an analogy. We have a pitcher and a batter. The first 3 times the pitcher meets this batter, he hits home runs off of him. Each time it was off of a high and outside pitch. The next 3 times the pitcher meets the batter he strikes him out. This time he used curve balls low and inside. The batter did not posses the skills to hit the ball.

Planes are like pitches. Some are curve balls, some are fast balls and some are change ups. They can be high or low and inside or outside. Its just a matter if the pilot knows how to hit those pitches.

And just for reference, the Yak3 and Yak3p are the same plane aside from thier guns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. So it must been the guns, not the plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Personally, I am getting pretty tired of all this "x" plane is uber and a noob plane posts. There is no plane in this sim when place in a comtemporay situation will Dominate everytime. There are pilots that when placed in comtemporary situations that WILL though.

were did i say that spit was uber, i do have some issues with its fm, but we arent even discussing that here.

i still say its a noob plane because of all the noobs that fly it, and take advantage of some issues with its fm,dm.

if you remember i was against removing spit25 from wc. i said then that i had no trouble killing it. check my stats and posts from then.

but just because i don't think its uber, and can kill it, doesnt mean i cant critise it or noobs that fly it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because I started my post off quoting you does not mean that every statement I make in my post is directed at you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Von_Rat:

Im saying that a spit9 standard that starts out above and with a e advantage over a dora or g6as can stay above the dora or g6as no matter what they do. if they try to climb up to spit they are hit or are forced to dive. the spit can dive on them and pull up back above them everytime, as long as spit pilot knows his stuff.


Ummm.... Yes. And does this seem not right?? He has more energy. There is nothing wrong with that.


exactly, there is nothing wrong with it but some people were not agreeing. they were saying spit couldnt stay above, and thus get away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did you see people saying that? Because very post I have read in here is talking about starting out Co-E. There is a big difference.

Let me re-read all 9 pages when I get some time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, but I do not recall anyone stating that they can out fly a spit when they are at an E disadvantage.

p1ngu666
07-30-2006, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by FI.RULES:
What or who is a n00b?
Is it a general term or is it something/someone specific?
please explain....

n00b = newbie

certainly of all the western planes, it was easiest for new pilots. hurri was easier but that was phased out..

imo ppl whine cos its competative with the late war lw stuff.
190 isnt perfect, but imo its in a better state than tempest, p51, and in few ppls cases, where spitfire handles terribly.

i mean, whats the next scariest ride ud stumble across as a dora pilot?

faustnik
07-30-2006, 11:01 AM
Historical best:

Low altitude dogfighting - Spitfire LF, Yak, La5/7, Bf109F/G

High altitude dogfighting - Spitfire HF, P-47D, Ta

High speed maneuver, perfromance - P-51, Fw190, Tempest

PF best:


Low altitude dogfighting - Spitfire LF, Yak, La5/7, Bf109F/G

High altitude dogfighting - Spitfire HF, P-47D, Ta

High speed maneuver, perfromance - P-51, Fw190

Looks like the Tempest might be a problem. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Brain32
07-30-2006, 11:02 AM
i mean, whats the next scariest ride ud stumble across as a dora pilot?
First you immidiately took the Dora for example but OK. I don't know why you think Spit is the only ride scary for a FW190. Tempest is quite scary too, so is the P47, Mustang3, regular P51, the only difference is that when those make stupid decisions and bleed their E, they are dead - that's it. I'm not saying they have no flaws but if you think they are not competitive(especially Tempest and P47) you are delusional. By far the worst in allied aresanal is the P38...

Looks like the Tempest might be a problem.
Trim changes too much across the speed range, although it shouldn't according to everything I've read about it

HellToupee
07-30-2006, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif @ running from a tempest

its close, but u can.

hope we get 11lb, and 13lbs of boost http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

yes even our mighty 9lbs will catch those d9s for one reason, they have been corrupted by their automated CEM, rarely if ever will they close their rads so a tempest pilot closed rads engine hot as hell catches and learns em

JtD
07-30-2006, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:

Im saying that a spit9 standard that starts out above and with a e advantage over a dora or g6as can stay above the dora or g6as no matter what they do. if they try to climb up to spit they are hit or are forced to dive. the spit can dive on them and pull up back above them everytime, as long as spit pilot knows his stuff.

When the Spit starts diving, it blows it's E advantage. It would need a dive around 10-15 m/s just to keep up with a D-9, let alone gain on it. And this is at competetive altitudes. So, no, the Spit can't dive on them and pull back up. It can try to dive on them once, fail, and then climb back to altitude and hope the bandit does not come back with advantage a few minutes later. The only way to make sure would be to make use of the higher ceiling.

JtD
07-30-2006, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:

... while for FW190 we have low or worst case scenario, and sometimes even below that...

Looking on how well this topic went I wouldn't mind if you'd start a topic where you elaborate on this (once more). Maybe, with the current spirit, it also makes 10 pages without degrading into pointless flaming.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
Historical best:

Low altitude dogfighting - Spitfire LF, Yak, La5/7, Bf109F/G

High altitude dogfighting - Spitfire HF, P-47D, Ta

High speed maneuver, perfromance - P-51, Fw190, Tempest

PF best:


Low altitude dogfighting - Spitfire LF, Yak, La5/7, Bf109F/G

High altitude dogfighting - Spitfire HF, P-47D, Ta

High speed maneuver, perfromance - P-51, Fw190

Looks like the Tempest might be a problem. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Finally, someone putting it into perspective. THANK YOU !!!!!

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:

Im saying that a spit9 standard that starts out above and with a e advantage over a dora or g6as can stay above the dora or g6as no matter what they do. if they try to climb up to spit they are hit or are forced to dive. the spit can dive on them and pull up back above them everytime, as long as spit pilot knows his stuff.

When the Spit starts diving, it blows it's E advantage. It would need a dive around 10-15 m/s just to keep up with a D-9, let alone gain on it. And this is at competetive altitudes. So, no, the Spit can't dive on them and pull back up. It can try to dive on them once, fail, and then climb back to altitude and hope the bandit does not come back with advantage a few minutes later. The only way to make sure would be to make use of the higher ceiling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sir are not fighting against very good pilots if you can turn the tables on a spitfire in this situation. E is a combination of Alt and Speed. You can exchange Alt for speed and still retain the same Energy state. If a spit starts above you, you dive and he dives with you then he ends up below you, then this pilot needs to get in some more practice in http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

HellToupee
07-30-2006, 12:09 PM
i think he means it allows him to match the spits e state dunno about getting above that would require error on the spits part, but in getting bnzed by 109s and stuff with the temp i would dive when they do they ofcourse would be going faster if i could evade their guns on the way down as they closed and overshot and went back up matching that ild be able to zoom with sometimes get above. Worked great on 109s because their alerions really stiffen up on the way down.

Probly similar to what he describes. When diving at higher speeds ur losing alt but not gaining enough airspeed to recover alt in the zoom.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
i think he means it allows him to match the spits e state dunno about getting above that would require error on the spits part, but in getting bnzed by 109s and stuff with the temp i would dive when they do they ofcourse would be going faster if i could evade their guns on the way down as they closed and overshot and went back up matching that ild be able to zoom with sometimes get above. Worked great on 109s because their alerions really stiffen up on the way down.

Probly similar to what he describes. When diving at higher speeds ur losing alt but not gaining enough airspeed to recover alt in the zoom.

A zoom is not an energy retaining manuver. If you want to retain your energy after a dive, you do not perform a zoom climb.

HellToupee
07-30-2006, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
i think he means it allows him to match the spits e state dunno about getting above that would require error on the spits part, but in getting bnzed by 109s and stuff with the temp i would dive when they do they ofcourse would be going faster if i could evade their guns on the way down as they closed and overshot and went back up matching that ild be able to zoom with sometimes get above. Worked great on 109s because their alerions really stiffen up on the way down.

Probly similar to what he describes. When diving at higher speeds ur losing alt but not gaining enough airspeed to recover alt in the zoom.

A zoom is not an energy retaining manuver. If you want to retain your energy after a dive, you do not perform a zoom climb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but even zoom or shallow climb or even just pulling up into level flight its not going to change things, by following in dive they blow any alt advantage and render speeds about equal. since u hit the brick wall pretty quickly.

Its not a matter of retaining energy its that u already lost it.

JtD
07-30-2006, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
...E is a combination of Alt and Speed...

...and mass. Now if you allow me to throw in some simple physics, I'd like to give you one co-E example. E being both kinetic engergy from speed, and potential engergy from height.

Assume a D-9 with 4.33t weight goes around on top speed at 4500 meters alt with it's top speed of 700 kph. This give it a total energy of

Etotfwd9 = Ekin + Epot = m*v²/2 + m*g*h = 4330*194²/2 + 4330*9.81*4500 = 273 MJ

Now you have a standard Spit IXc with 3.23t weight above you, going close to it's top speed with 650 kph. The altitude the Spit needs to become co-E is not less than 7000 meters!

EtotSpitIX = Ekin + Epot = m*v²/2 + m*g*h = 3230*180²/2 + 3230*9.81*7000 = 274 MJ

As soon as the Spit starts diving, drag will become larger than thrust which means it will lose E. If the FW keeps going straight keeping both speed and alt, it won't. Now the smart thing FW can do is to enter a dive, wasting some E, but it will waste a lot less E than the Spit, simply because it has a better drag/thrust ratio than the Spit, as can be seen from the better top speed.

To cut it short, it is not about bad Spitfire pilots, but about physics, that a Spit even with a severe altitude advantage, can not catch a running D-9. If it tries for too long, it will find itself in disadvantage and will become the hunted. This is where pilot quality becomes an issue, good ones will know when to give up and maintain the alt advantage.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 12:34 PM
Please DEAR GOD leave the damn physics out of this. Call up Yeager or Bud Anderson and ask them to give you equation to calculate the engery state of a plane in the air. Bet then will give you a big HUH? Yet they were very good pilots.

You cannot use these formulas to do any more then give you the energy state at a Specific POINT since Altitude and Speed are constantly changing in a Dogfight.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 12:38 PM
And another thing. That formula is way to simplistic to have any real meaning. It negates things like the energy of the planes engine.

JtD
07-30-2006, 12:45 PM
Believe it or not, but physics is that simple. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That's the total mechanical energy the planes have - nothing left out, nothing wrong included.

Engines have power, not energy, energy is power * time. The energy the engine converts btw comes from the chemical energy of the fuel.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 12:58 PM
No JtD it is not that simple. The dataset you would have to plug into your "simple" equations is infinate. Speed and Alt is changing constantly durning flight. So unless you want to sample the Speed and Alt values every second or so, then your equation doesnt mean a thing.

You have nothign figured in there for acceleration difference as well. Neither of the planes will accelerate at the same rate in the dive.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 01:03 PM
Let me ask it this way then.


Does the power developed by the engine contribute to the speed of the diving airplane?

If so, then where is this figured into your "simple" equation?

JtD
07-30-2006, 01:20 PM
Hey Sparx, that mechanical energy is in no way a total presentation of a dogfight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My data of course is a sample, I gave speed and altitude for the plane. So that is one datapoint, not more.

(Dive) acceleration is pretty simple. You transform potential energy into kinetic, lose energy from drag and gain from the engine power. At speeds above level top speed, you need some of the potential energy in addition to engine power to continously overcome drag, just to keep the speed. In the example, the Spit has the higher drag. It thus has worse acceleration.

If you go back a few pages, you'll find a chart of a dive comparism between a SpitIXc and a FW 190A-6. You can pretty obviously see, that the Spit has a worse dive acceleration at higher speeds.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
Hey Sparx, that mechanical energy is in no way a total presentation of a dogfight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My data of course is a sample, I gave speed and altitude for the plane. So that is one datapoint, not more.



And this is exactly why you cannot use your "simple" equations to try and prove your point.

JtD
07-30-2006, 01:33 PM
I made a simple equasion and a simple statement. That works. Not only the theory is correct, but practice also supports the statement.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
I made a simple equasion and a simple statement. That works. Not only the theory is correct, but practice also supports the statement.

Virtual Combat Flying is not that simple. That is the problem that most Virtual Pilots are facing.


You get a skill Pilot in a Spitfire and you in a FW190 D9, you will find you will not be able to do what you have stated if the Spitfire starts with a higher Alt then you.

JtD
07-30-2006, 01:54 PM
So far I don't know of any skill that helps to overcome a 70-110 kph speed gap. I don't have it, and I never met anyone who had it.

Oh, and from my experience virtual combat flying is exactly that simple. At least it works for me.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-30-2006, 02:09 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JtD:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von_Rat:

Im saying that a spit9 standard that starts out above and with a e advantage over a dora or g6as can stay above the dora o

TheGozr
07-30-2006, 02:16 PM
All will change with the new FM more complicated calculs etc.. It's become almost a no point to discuss what we have now. My conclusion.
I'm very curious how BOB will be.

La7_brook
07-30-2006, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
All will change with the new FM more complicated calculs etc.. It's become almost a no point to discuss what we have now. My conclusion.
I'm very curious how BOB will be. ROLL ON NEW FM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Von_Rat
07-31-2006, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
[QUOTE]Von_Rat:

this is what i see smart __________ pilots do. the noobs, meaning vast majority, like the ones jtd fought blow their e and die.

I took the liberty of editing your quote there. Just fill in the blank with any flyable in the sim and this statment will hold true. Why? Because it is the PILOT, NOT THE PLANE.

__________________________________________________ __

no sometimes its the plane, i got beaten by a guy in a yak3p, 3 times in a row same guy shoots me down, then i got in a yak3p, and shot his yak down 3 times in a row. i passed on shootin other yaks just to get him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. It quite simply meant that he did not know how to fight against a Yak3p. He did not posses the skill set or ability to fight you in that Yak3p probably because he had not fought a Yak3 agains a Yak3p.

__________________________________________________ _______



actually the server was full of yak3p and spits, mostly yak3ps though.

the guy i shotdown 3 times in a row had the hi score by far, i think it was around 2,000 pts. the next highest had only a few hundred.

i think its safe to save he knew how to fly a yak.

i found him unbeatable with me flying german planes, probaly because i lack experiance fighting yaks. but once i got in a yak, the plane more than made up for my lack of skills.


so to a certain degree, its not always true that,,,its the pilot not the plane.

Von_Rat
07-31-2006, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Von_Rat:

Im saying that a spit9 standard that starts out above and with a e advantage over a dora or g6as can stay above the dora or g6as no matter what they do. if they try to climb up to spit they are hit or are forced to dive. the spit can dive on them and pull up back above them everytime, as long as spit pilot knows his stuff.


Ummm.... Yes. And does this seem not right?? He has more energy. There is nothing wrong with that.


exactly, there is nothing wrong with it but some people were not agreeing. they were saying spit couldnt stay above, and thus get away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did you see people saying that? Because very post I have read in here is talking about starting out Co-E. There is a big difference.

Let me re-read all 9 pages when I get some time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, but I do not recall anyone stating that they can out fly a spit when they are at an E disadvantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the quote you have there is refering to spits being able to stay above and thus disengauge when outnumbered in enemy territory,. someone said spits can never disengauge in that situation, i replied that they could, if they flew like that post says.

the point was about spits being able to get away, the arguments about e state came later, and to me are irrelvent to the point i was trying to make with that post that spits can get away if the keep e advantage.

frankly im lost as to the rest of the discussion, and im not going to reread it even if i have time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif



__________________________________________________ ______
Please DEAR GOD leave the damn physics out of this.
__________________________________________________ ___


quick sombody pm viper, he needs to be in on this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Xiolablu3
07-31-2006, 03:34 AM
Well the YAk3P is a post war plane, so its got 6 months or more on a Dora.

Me262 is a good German plane to put up against it.



Vonrat - Seeing as you say noobs fly SPitfires because its easier to fly than your FW190D9, does that mean you are a noob when compared to someone who flys P47s or P51's? They are harder to fly succesfully than the 190D9 after all??

Von_Rat
07-31-2006, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Well the YAk3P is a post war plane, so its got 6 months or more on a Dora.

Me262 is a good German plane to put up against it.



Vonrat - Seeing as you say noobs fly SPitfires because its easier to fly than your FW190D9, does that mean you are a noob when compared to someone who flys P47s or P51's? They are harder to fly succesfully than the 190D9 after all??

i fly p51s alot too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

you know if this was game was more like real life, meaning fear of death, the fw would be the noob plane like it was in rl. easy controls plus,,,,,

speed is life

JG53Frankyboy
07-31-2006, 03:43 AM
havent 3 and 3P not almost the same performance ? never tested them.

in VVS'46 adon will come the "monster" Yak-3 VK-107A.

Kernow
07-31-2006, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:

you know if this was game was more like real life, meaning fear of death, the fw would be the noob plane like it was in rl. easy controls plus,,,,,

speed is life

Dead right. Wasn't this mentioned earlier in the thread - maybe another thread I was following? If people flew in a more 'realistic' manner it would be a whole different game. What works for real generally does work in-game, but what would be suicidal for real also works acceptably for the majority of online fliers.

Yes, Franky, according to IL-2C the Yak-3 and -3P have identical performance. Incidentally so do both versions of the Hellcat, and they also have the same armament & loadouts. Default markings on the earlier F6F have a red outline - and that's the only difference I've ever found in the game, although I think the later one carried more air-ground loadouts in RL. OT trivia Q, why the 2 versions of the F6F?

JG53Frankyboy
07-31-2006, 07:23 AM
F6F-3 has small windows behind the cockpit.

Xiolablu3
07-31-2006, 07:28 AM
So it must just be the 3 20mm B20 cannons which were new on the Yak3p then,

The Yak 3 standard has 2x 13mm and 1 20mm.

Kernow
07-31-2006, 08:07 AM
Ah thx Franky; never noticed that.

Actually I was slightly wrong about the -3 & -3P: their speeds are identical, but the -3P climbs better and turns slightly better (from graphs). If it had more power it would also be faster, so presumably it is lighter. However, take-off weight of the -3P is actually almost 300 kg heavier - also from IL-2C. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Hmmm, looking at the figs in IL-2C, I think the graphs have been switched around; the data numbers say the -3 turns and climbs better than the -3P. And that makes sense with the heavier weight of the -3P, which also makes sense given the heavier armament.

p1ngu666
07-31-2006, 10:43 AM
yak3's are a pain, but a 109 can outclimb/outrun, 190 outrun.

if u despiratly want to shoot one down, there a pain, but if your indifferent then its not too bad.

yak3p shares same DM as yak3, has bulletproof glass, while the ingame cockpit has none http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

personally, i want more yak9s http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

yak9u late http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

JtD
07-31-2006, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
__________________________________________________ ______
Please DEAR GOD leave the damn physics out of this.
__________________________________________________ ___



Yeah, physics are nothin for n00bs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Von_Rat
07-31-2006, 01:42 PM
xiablu3 wrote
Vonrat - Seeing as you say noobs fly SPitfires because its easier to fly than your FW190D9, does that mean you are a noob when compared to someone who flys P47s or P51's? They are harder to fly succesfully than the 190D9 after all??[/QUOTE]
__________________________________________________ ____________________

took the mustang3 up today, got 11 confirmed kills and 1200pts. who says 50s don't work.



actually i still think theres somthing wrong with 50s. i got shotdown 3 times because i had to sit on a enemy plane trying to kill it.

faustnik
07-31-2006, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:

actually i still think theres somthing wrong with 50s. i got shotdown 3 times because i had to sit on a enemy plane trying to kill it.

This illustrates my main complaint about Spitfires. <span class="ev_code_RED">I hate</span> when I'm sweating out a nasty fight in my P-47 or P-51 with a Bf109 or Fw190, finally gaining an edge, getting some .50 hits, and some Spitfire flies in and vapoorizes the target with Hispanos. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Maybe my complaint is with the pilots, not the planes, but, same result. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

DIRTY-MAC
07-31-2006, 03:08 PM
all I can say is I dont think the Spit is that dangerous if you just know how to fight it,
but I must admit that the spits guns rocks, they are re4ally hard hitting, very easy to bring down enemies with

Xiolablu3
08-01-2006, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:

actually i still think theres somthing wrong with 50s. i got shotdown 3 times because i had to sit on a enemy plane trying to kill it.

This illustrates my main complaint about Spitfires. <span class="ev_code_RED">I hate</span> when I'm sweating out a nasty fight in my P-47 or P-51 with a Bf109 or Fw190, finally gaining an edge, getting some .50 hits, and some Spitfire flies in and vapoorizes the target with Hispanos. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Maybe my complaint is with the pilots, not the planes, but, same result. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That shouldnt happen if you are flying with decent pilots.

All the of the pilots I fly with in late night sessions would cover you from above and not barge in. The only time that is excusable is when the enemy plane is shooting at another teamates, then you need to bring him down as fast as possible.

I will pm you when we fly and you can join us sometime if you want mate. We have a good crowd on most nights now, who all fly to the same etticate and not for score or 'stats'.

Of course there is still the problem at peak times where you get lots of new pilots who dont care and need educating, but thats part of the game now, we are used to it. We call that 'weekend syndrome', purely becasue its very common at weekends when the server is busy.